back to article Spain clamps down on drones

Spain's Agencia Estatal de Seguridad Aérea (State Air Security Agency - AESA) has issued a declaration in which it reminds citizens that the commercial or professional use of "drones" is illegal, and that amateur UAV operation is restricted to "authorised areas". The document (PDF) stresses that "the use of remote control …

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  1. Pypes

    Implications for LOHAN?

    1. Lester Haines (Written by Reg staff) Gold badge

      I don't know yet - watch this space.

      1. bpfh
        Coat

        ...watch this spaaaaace!

        I'll get my coat...

      2. Peter Simpson 1
        Black Helicopters

        Easy! Just get the SPB LOHAN project adopted as an official arm of the Spanish Space Agency. What? They don't have one? Well, now they can!

        // helicopter 'cause no drone icon

  2. Dan 55 Silver badge
    WTF?

    From the country that brought you...

    ... the tax on the sun...

    http://www.forbes.com/sites/kellyphillipserb/2013/08/19/out-of-ideas-and-in-debt-spain-sets-sights-on-taxing-the-sun/

    ... and telecos expropriating your roof if they want to put an antenna on it...

    http://www.thelocal.es/20140507/phone-companies

    ... we now have a new ban on something that was always banned. If that's the case how did LOHAN get permission to fly in Spain?

    Look, don't try to think about it. Just accept it was always banned and that the ban will be lifted if and when someone works out a way to tax it. Es lo que hay.

    1. M7S

      Off topic but relevant to UK IT

      In the second article linked in Dan55's post, the expropriation of roofs is required to "help Spain meet its obligations under the European Union's Digital Agenda for Europe project.

      Those obligations include providing everyone with minimum broadband speeds of 30 megabytes per second."

      Is this really an EU obligation?

      If so why is the UK doing something apparently inferior, certainly out in the sticks but in many towns as well, given that normally we gold plate every EU regulation to the detriment of our nation's interests? Perhaps some technical (rather than financial [/cynicism]) limitation?

      I'd be interested to learn if there's anything we can do about this, assuming that all the above is not an oversimplification of the situation.

      1. Dan 55 Silver badge

        Re: Off topic but relevant to UK IT

        The Digital Agenda target is 'fast broadband (>30 mbs) coverage for all' by 2020.

        Spain's decided that this is going to be done with 4G and letting the telecos stick antennas where they like. They're also changing TV frequencies to make way for 4G frequencies in January 2015. If you don't know retuning the TV is more complicated in Spain than in the UK because most people live in blocks of flats. Each block has an aerial on the roof and the signal from the aerial is run through an array of amplifiers before it's delivered to each flat. Each amplifier only amplifies one frequency so if channel frequencies change the amplifiers need to be retuned too which costs everyone in the flats money as they have to get the aerial guy out to come out. Retuning's not very popular in Spain, yet the last one was only a couple of years or so ago.

        UK's decided that this is going to be done mainly with fibre. https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/britains-superfast-broadband-future

      2. BristolBachelor Gold badge

        Re: Off topic but relevant to UK IT

        Meanwhile I've just been told by Telefonica that I cannot even have a line, let alone ADSL or 30mb in the house I'm renovating, even though the line's already there. Thankfully I have some contacts in the Sat business, but Satellite internet is not ideal. My other option is to start a Ltd. company with CIF number and order dedicated fibre, but it's only for ltd companies; just paying 300€ month being self employed is not enough.

        1. Dan 55 Silver badge

          Re: Off topic but relevant to UK IT

          Would Netllar or a WiMAX provider cover you?

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Roof antennas are a laugh

      Because, as a Spaniard, I need to first see one of these antennas on the house of every government member house before they even think of putting one on my own roof.

      And even if that happens, I wait complacently for the time they put one on my own roof. That is going to be extremely expensive for them. Either they are going to be fixing it every other day or have to put someone watching it 24x7. You know, those vandals are all the time looking for opportunities to break things.

      1. Peter Simpson 1
        Happy

        Re: Roof antennas are a laugh

        I'd go for the "no preblem with the antenna as long as I get free service" approach.

        May as well get something for the inconvenience. Of course if my proposal is denied, my attitude would rapidly switch to "nice antenna you have there...be a shame if something was to happen to it"

  3. AndyS

    Reminds me of Ian Banks

    In his book "The Bridge," laws only exist to allow things. Anything not specifically allowed in law is, obviously, illegal.

    1. Russell Hancock

      Re: Reminds me of Ian Banks

      If I remember correctly (probably not) this is the basis of Roman law - it's banned unless it's written in the list of "allowable" things... This is the basis for the laws of most European countries...

      The UK is based on Common Law - if it is not on the list, go for it. The problem is now that the list in the UK is massive...

      Can anyone correct my tired brain?

      Cheers

      1. chrisf1

        Re: Reminds me of Ian Banks

        Yes, Many European countries are based in this system - also known as Napoleonic codes. However this is often balanced by allowing the Judiciary greater interpretative and 'common sense' powers in more junior courts. By comparison our more permissive common law allows little flexibility to do more than follow the letter of the law below the High Court.

      2. Radbruch1929

        Re: Reminds me of Ian Banks

        @Russell Hancock: No, this is not the basis for continental jurisdictions. According to the preamble of the French constitution for the 5th republic, the Declaration of the Rights of Man and of the Citizen of 1789 is part of the constitution. Art. 4 of the declaration codifies the right of Freedom of Action.

        The Germans have it in Art 2, subsection 1 of the Grundgesetz (their constitutional law).

        In general, starting with the French revolution, the right of Freedom of Action was seen as a universal human right and adopted in the continental codified laws bit by bit.

      3. Irony Deficient

        Re: Reminds me of Ian Banks

        Russell, that “everything is forbidden unless permitted in civil law, everything is permitted unless forbidden in common law” belief seems to be popularly held in common law countries. Unfortunately, it’s inaccurate. The primary difference between the two systems is that common law allows “law to be written from the bench” through judicial precedent, and keeps such law in force through stare decisis, on the theory that similar cases should produce similar outcomes. In civil law, case law is always subsidiary to statutory law; precedent can influence, but never can determine, the outcome of a case. Some jurisdictions mix the two systems, such as Scotland, South Africa, Quebec, and Louisiana.

        1. Russell Hancock

          Re: Reminds me of Ian Banks

          @chrisf1, @Radbruch1929, @Irony Deficient - Thanks for the extra info from each of you - i will go and look into the points raised and try and understand things better - as i said, the comment was based on memory and not based on research (yes, yes, dangerous i know...)

          Always happy to learn something new...

          Side topic [Pet hate] - @Radbruch1929 's down-voters- 2 down-votes but neither explaining why - how do we know what you did not agree with so we can check it out?

      4. Martin Budden Silver badge

        Re: Reminds me of Ian Banks

        "If you have ten thousand regulations you destroy all respect for the law." - Winston Churchill

  4. Semtex451
    Coat

    I'm curious to know how this is policed and whether there is a comfy chair penalty.

  5. Peter Galbavy

    This is very similar to my (very amateur) reading of UK law as implemented by the CAA. I read up on most of these in a cursory way when I got my Parrot AR.Drone 2 last year. Flights "for gain" are not allowed unless you have a license - which may be the difference between the UK and Spain of course.

    1. Neil Barnes Silver badge

      That's the point I made (and got thumped for) when the subject came up a month ago.

      The ANO applies to everyone; there is no exception just because a drone is currently both cheap and fashionable... I'm still confused as to why people think there's a difference between a drone and any other radio-controlled model, and why the rules would be different.

      1. Peter Christy

        RC Models

        The rules aren't different. RC models operate under certain exemptions to the Air Navigation Order, but these generally exclude commercial use, although a licensing procedure for this is now in place. Further the exemptions place constraints on how close you are allowed to operate to people and buildings - something which some in the drone community either don't grasp or choose to ignore.

        The Spanish position is nothing new. A few years back, Spain hosted the World Championships for RC helicopters, and competitors were warned that only the contest site and a very small number of officially designated practice sites could be used. Prosecution of anyone failing to observe these rules was threatened!

        Luckily the British team found a very obliging mayor in a nearby area who was quite happy to designate a suitable bit of land for us to practice. "Area 51", as it became known, looked like something out of one of the desert scenes from a Clint Eastwood western, complete with abandoned villages......

        More worrying is the fact that no move has been made internationally to establish a secure frequency for the operation of drones. 2.4 GHz - the most used band - is already worryingly overcrowded, especially in urban areas, and in the UK, Ofcom have made it clear that 35 MHz is for non-commercial use only. 459 MHz is UK only, and hence equipment is difficult to obtain. This situation may be fine for operating a small drone out in the sticks, but as soon as you start operating near people or buildings you *really need* a very secure command frequency, and 2.4 GHz is NOT it!

        1. Martin Budden Silver badge
          Pint

          Re: RC Models

          Luckily the British team found a very obliging mayor in a nearby area who was quite happy to designate a suitable bit of land for us to practice.

          And there is the solution! Local RC clubs can encourage* local authorities to designate suitable areas. The designated areas could be quite large :-)

          *see icon

  6. BigG
    Facepalm

    No exactly shocked

    Spain is strangled by a centralized "can't do" government restricting abortion, referendums, etc.

    Drones fitted with cameras could help uncover all sorts of dodgy behaviour by our politicians and royals. So that's a ban then.

    Hope this doesn't negatively impact your most excellent "Clicks" guided projects.

    Big G

    1. Tom 7

      Re: No exactly shocked

      Why bother with drones - kites and balloons are quite useful with modern anti-shake software.

      Not as fun ...

  7. photobod

    Enforceable?

    As with so many areas where governments try to exert power, it's a sham unless they put up the resources to enforce it. And Spain is in no sort of economic state to do that.

    With potentially thousands of infringements happening weekly, it's simply not possible to catch more than a tiny, tiny percentage without employing a huge army of drone police. And those police have much more pressing concerns than farmers checking the state of their crops or power companies their power lines.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Enforceable?

      Yeah it's enforceable. There's another law that states that not obeying an order from a policeman -any policeman; however silly that order may be- is illegal; and can be punishable by anything the judge deems reasonable on the day...and that includes jail. So all you have to do is inform the police and enforcement will happen. Spanish police aren't big fans of anything with a camera on it to start with.

      A friend wanted to start a business taking RC helicopter images of houses for estate agents. He got shut down on his first day. A neighbour of one of his target houses complained and the police said that it was basically an infringement of that neighbour's privacy. He had every intention of cropping the images so that only the for-sale house showed up; but he had the information on his computer and that was enough, apparently. He didn't pay any penalties; but they told him that a second infringement would pretty well guarantee a four-figure fine and things would escalate steeply from there. This was about 5 years ago now.

      A bit of a pisser for me personally - I was intending to get myself a Parrot so I could see when the local was open without leaving my comfy chair.

  8. MJI Silver badge

    How can it be banned .......

    if there is no law banning it?

    1. ukgnome

      Re: How can it be banned .......

      It's a bit like some corporate firewalls that I have worked on.

      If it's black listed then you can't access it, and you can only access things that are on the white list.

      if it isn't on either list then you still can't access it and have to ask the nice firewall people if you can access it.

  9. DropBear
    Mushroom

    They did pretty much the same thing in Romania not long ago: http://www.romania-insider.com/new-romanian-drone-regulation-raises-questions-among-users/113749/

    The general thinking everywhere seems to be "we just don't like anything disturbing the status quo - these thing are getting on our radar lately so let's ban them!". Regarding enforcement - nobody gives a s##t; the law is there just as yet another convenient book they can throw at you whenever they feel like bashing in your head - much like many, many, many other laws that only see use whenever an agent of The Man feels you're inadmissibly uppity today and must be taken down a peg.

  10. MJI Silver badge

    Too confusing!

    I think I will do Nothing is true, everything is permitted.

  11. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    that's the spirit!

    ole!

    when can I expect a similar declaration by a gov.uk agency and why they haven't issued one yet?! :(

  12. Chris G

    If there are no rules! you can't do it!

    A few years ago my wife used to work on a little island here in Ibiza that was bought by Abramovitch.

    He applied to the local planners to build a Heli-pad, the answer was no because there were no guidelines or regulations at that time regarding the granting of planning for a heli-pad, when it was mentioned that the hospital had an air ambulance and the Guardia Civil had a chopper the response was ' They don't need planning only clearance from the ATC'.

    So they asked the ATC who said ' You need planning permission first'.

  13. G R Goslin

    Nothing new here.

    There used to be a saying, in Poland, I believe, which went. "In America everything is permitted except that which is forbidden. In Poland, everthing is forbidden except that which is permitted." It's just another country jumping on the bandwagon of State control, .

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