back to article ISPs CAN be ordered to police pirates by blocking sites, says ECJ

ISPs throughout the European Union's 28-member bloc can be slapped with injunctions to prevent their subscribers from accessing pirated content, Luxembourg's Court of Justice ruled today. The decision comes after advocate general Pedro Cruz Villalón opined in November that telcos could be ordered to effectively operate as …

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  1. Eponymous Cowherd
    Facepalm

    Next up.....

    Postal services to be required to open and inspect all parcels in case they contain knock-off DVDs / CDs.

    Yet again the law-makers demonstrate their singular lack of anything remotely like a clue......

    1. bigtimehustler

      Re: Next up.....

      It is less them not having a clue and more them agreeing to make sure big business gets all the benefits it can, and in the future ensure "good will" from those large companies.

      1. Dr. Mouse

        Re: Next up.....

        While I am not supportive of the blocking of such websites, this is not like authorising the post office to open parcels to check for pirated DVDs. This is like informing a courier that they may no longer deliver parcels from a particular company because they are known to distribute pirated materials. (And just like that approach, the company involved could just change their address/name to get around the block)

        For it to be like opening the parcels, they would have to be running DPI and blocking content in a dynamic way. Not to say they wont do that (or even that it isn't already being done) but that's not what is being discussed here.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Next up.....

          While true. It would be great if it worked like that. Why not stop all those scam numbers on the phone?

          Scam emails get clamped down on quite a bit. Perhaps a similar model for problematic data/traffic?

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Next up.....

            scam calls and texts generate money, why would they want to stop an income stream just because it annoys end users

            1. JimmyPage Silver badge
              Flame

              Re: Next up.....

              This.

              Why do you think - despite the whining of the anti-porn brigade over "net filters", the default for access to adult service lines is ON ? Surely if they want consistency and really are "thinking of the children" then they would insist that all landlines have access to premium rate numbers disabled by default.

              Mysteriously this hasn't happened.

              Icon, because we had to pay £20 when our (then) 8 year old son quite innocently called an 0898 number on a game for "tips". Then we had to pay £1/month for the "privilege" of having premium rate calls barred.

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Next up.....

          > Not to say they wont do that (or even that it isn't already being done)

          I have a Cisco RV220W firewall/router. With the previous version of the firmware it would run for weeks without any issues but if I started a torrent download then the router would crash if it received a malformed torrent packet on the WAN side. It wouldn't matter that the Ethernet, IP and UDP headers and checksums were correct, it only crashed if the payload torrent packet was malformed. The router/firewall should not be touching the packet payload, as it only needs the IP and UDP headers to perform its functions, which means malformed torrent packets should not be crashing it.

          The latest version of the firmware does not have this problem.

        3. Graham Cobb Silver badge

          Re: Next up.....

          This is like informing a courier that they may no longer deliver parcels from a particular company

          No it isn't. This is like informing a turnpike operator that they may no longer permit drivers to use their road if they say they are going to collect parcels from somebody who is known to distribute pirated materials. There is no commercial relationship between the (alleged) pirate and the turnpike operator/ISP. And it just encourages people to lie about where they are really going "oh no, I am not going to those nasty pirates, I am just off to see my friends at VPN Inc".

        4. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

          Re: Next up.....

          >this is like informing a courier that they may no longer deliver parcels from a particular company because they are known to distribute pirated materials.

          If they only deliver pirate materials or have occasionally delivered pirate materials?

          The BBC have illegally used stock photos without accreditation and stripped the meta info - should BBC.co.uk be banned by all ISP's in Britain?

          Microsoft, Sony, Apple etc have been caught using FOSS code in some products without proper distribution - do they all get banned?

      2. TitterYeNot

        Re: Next up.....

        "It is less them not having a clue and more them agreeing to make sure big business gets all the benefits it can, and in the future ensure "good will" from those large companies."

        Hanlon's Razor - Never attribute to being bought and paid for malice that which is adequately explained by being clueless fuckwits who wouldn't know their arse from a spanner stupidity.

    2. LarsG

      Re: Next up..... Increase in big business profit

      Increase in big business profit, increase in big business tax avoidance, decrease in the amount of tax big business pays.

      I'd have no problem with this if Microsoft, Google, Apple and their ilk actually paid a fair amount of tax. They don't so why should I subsidise them?

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Next up.....

      CEO's of ISP's quaking in their boots over the threat of arrest, result, random censuring of the internet.

    4. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      @Eponymous Cowherd

      Feel free to keep making the Postal Service analogy but this hasn't stood up in Court for over 10 years. The world has moved on but not, it seems, you.

      A better analogy is a shopping mall where the owner can be instructed by the police to ban known troublemakers, provided due process is followed. Owning a shopping mall does not make it a Temporary Anonymous Zone (TAZ). The law still applies.

      Nothing in this ruling obliges an ISP to pro-actively police the mall, search people's pockets (sniff packets) etc.

    5. TheVogon

      Re: Next up.....

      The worlds most pointless and never to be won game of Whack-A-Mole continues....

    6. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Next up.....

      Just use Google's DNS servers and then you don't need to care....

  2. Tromos

    Court decides ISPs are piracy intermediates

    Right, lock up all the ISPs, that should put a stop to it.

    1. Sir Runcible Spoon
      Facepalm

      Re: Court decides ISPs are piracy intermediates

      Well, you also need some kind of computer and screen to access the internet, perhaps they should be legislating for hardware restrictions being built into these devices that can detect if you are downloading copyright material without permission.

      The logic bomb needs to go off in some peoples' heads it seems.

  3. DropBear

    In other news...

    ...drivers of cabs and buses taken by criminals to/from an identified crime scene can now be prosecuted as accessories to any crime committed. Or, putting it differently, what the hell are these people smoking?!?

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: In other news...

      Nowhere in the article does it mention prosecution of the ISPs, simply that they can be instructed to block infringers. Just as taxi drivers can be reasonably expected not to take a booking from bank robbers looking for a getaway driver.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: In other news...

        "Nowhere in the article does it mention prosecution of the ISPs, simply that they can be instructed to block infringers."

        Instruction(n): "making known to a person what he is required to do; a direction, an order, a mandate (oral or written)."

        An order or mandate implies compulsion. Compulsion in this context can be inferred to be prosecution.

      2. Danny 14

        Re: In other news...

        It would be more apt to say a cab firm would be told by a court not to pick anyone up from tescos because someone somewhere carried a suspected stolen something into there.

      3. Eponymous Cowherd
        Thumb Down

        Re: In other news...

        "Nowhere in the article does it mention prosecution of the ISPs, simply that they can be instructed to block infringers. Just as taxi drivers can be reasonably expected not to take a booking from bank robbers looking for a getaway driver.

        Wrong analogy:

        This is like saying taxi firms can be required to not pick up fares from areas where criminals might be operating.

        "Hi, Is that ISP Taxis? Can you pick me up from outside of the bank?"

        "Sorry sir, that bank was robbed a year ago."

        "What about picking me up outside the park gates."

        "Sorry sir, drug dealing and prostitution in that area."

        "OK. OK. Can you pick me up from my home".

        "Yes sir, where would you like to go".

        "Can you take me to the cinema".

        "Sorry sir, someone was mugged there last week. Can't take the risk that you might be another mugger".

        "How about the pub"

        "Fight last weekend"

        "Zoo?"

        "Someone dropped some litter."

        ".........."

        1. JimmyPage Silver badge
          Thumb Up

          Re: In other news...

          I can see a new game along the lines of "Cheese Shop" developing.

          ("Cheese Shop" is a game for two players, celebrating the famous Monty Python "Cheese Shop" sketch. One player is the customer, the other the owner. The customer has to list as many different cheeses as he can, whilst the owner has to have a different excuse as to why they haven't got it. The game is lost when a player repeats a cheese, or excuse. Best played after a few bevvies).

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: In other news...

          Wrong again, Eponymous.

          Repeating false statements and interpretations over and over again does not make them right. Change the record.

          1. Eponymous Cowherd
            FAIL

            Re: In other news...

            "Wrong again, Eponymous.

            Repeating false statements and interpretations over and over again does not make them right. Change the record."

            Seems most people disagree with you, Mr Anonymous Coward. How about you reveal yourself instead of sniping at your betters from behind your AC parapet?

        3. BongoJoe

          Re: In other news...

          This is like saying taxi firms can be required to not pick up fares from areas where criminals might be operating.

          "Cabbie, take me home [hic]"

          "Naaah, mate. That's Saaf of the River. Not this time of night"

          You're right, I could never see this happening.

  4. Aristotles slow and dimwitted horse

    Ok, so...

    First sites that host "protected content" (whatever the f**k that actually means), then I have no doubt that this will be extended to sites that do not agree with EU or government policy or opinion and such like?

    This whole judgement is wrong on so many levels. But by that ruling I am assuming that the highways agency can now be held accountable for allowing criminals access to jewellery stores and banks yes?

  5. Pen-y-gors

    Read it carefully...

    It does seem a bit silly, but the article suggests that they can only be required to block specific pirated content, NOT an entire website. Call-me-Dave please take note.

    1. andreas koch

      @ Pen-y-gors - Re: Read it carefully...

      I wonder how they will find this content. They'll probably be ordered to look for filenames like "Harry Potter Film pirated illegal version.mp4". Downloading the file "wfuiG42Va5.ptd" will be totally OK.

    2. Salts

      Re: Read it carefully...

      @ Pen-y-gors

      That is how I read it also and even TPB has legal content on it, it would be fun to see the ISP's demand specific links to block on torrent sites rather than blanket blocks on sites, I doubt however this will ever happen though.

  6. Amorous Cowherder
    Facepalm

    Superb!

    So next time some talentless scuzzwad steals my photos, butchers them and starts pushing them as their own I can have an entire site blocked? Sorry? You say it's only for big media corps and the little guys can go **** themselves? Oh right, big business as usual looking after itself!

  7. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    I want to see CD/DVD sales figures before and after the ban to see these lost billions in sales suddenly re-appearing.

  8. WonkoTheSane
    FAIL

    Politicians fail to understand rules for "Whack-A-Mole"

    Film at eleven.

  9. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    As an American, this puts me in the somewhat bizarre position of actually being thankful for the DMCA.

  10. Mad Mike

    Should apply to everything

    By the logic of the court, an ISP (or other provider of services) should block access to/from anything that is illegal. Now, copyright is one such thing, but there are plenty of others as well. So, this judgement shouldn't really be about copyright at all, but the general concept of supplying services to known criminals. However, this case goes further in that it actually affects the supply of services to people who commit offences against CIVIL law (i.e. copyright), not just criminal law!! So, the ramifications are much, much wider.

    1. JimmyPage Silver badge
      Big Brother

      @Mad Mike

      Yes, but what is "illegal" exactly. And more importantly, where ? Whilst laws on CP have become fairly aligned in the past decades, there are lots of other areas where laws vary wildly. The UK is a particularly dangerous place in that respect, since a lot of laws rely on "context"[1]. I hope you haven't got a road atlas of the UK, because it could be of use to a terrorist in certain cases.

      It's axiomatic that "illegal" will become more widely defined as "stuff the state doesn't want you to know".

      [1]For an excellent demonstration of how context affects things, in a humorous setting, may I respectfully suggest you watch "Stewart Lee's Comedy Vehicle" shown on 22/3/2014

      (iPlayer link here, but obviously it won't last forever)

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: @Mad Mike

        "The UK is a particularly dangerous place in that respect"

        How true that is. My wife and I used to play a childish game of 'who can draw the rudest picture' after a few drinks.

        It turns out that I'm crap at drawing and some of the women depicted had small tits and no fanny hair.

        Apparently I now have to turn myself in as a paedophile and sign up to the sex offenders register.

  11. Anonymous Coward
    Joke

    Vote Farage

    Let's get out of Europe and not have any more of Brussels telling us what to do.

    1. Steven Burn

      Re: Vote Farage

      You lost as soon as you said "Vote Farage" .....

  12. Daz555

    And these powers do what exactly? Increasing the traffic for sites advertising proxies seems to be the only impact.

  13. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Only block illegal content...?

    So the ISP cannot block the website and framework that, by itsel,f is not illegal, but must solely block the illegal contents within that framework?

    1. billse10

      Re: Only block illegal content...?

      "So the ISP cannot block the website and framework that, by itself is not illegal, but must solely block the illegal contents within that framework?"

      Sounds perfectly reasonable: before suppressing content that is 'illegal' that content must be identified.

      Only things missing are painful (punitive) sanctions for blocking content that is not illegal, seeking such a block without identifying the specific offending items (ie requesting an ISP block access to an entire IP range just because one item on one virtual server in that range has been shown at some point to be 'illegal'), and similar sanctions against anyone aiding / abetting such a "blanket" block or those seeking it.

  14. Bladeforce

    Good luck with that...

    potters off to check Pirate Bay

    1. peter 45

      Re: Good luck with that...

      Oops that site has been blocked. Never mind, google pirate proxy, couple of clicks and away we go again. (Other options are available. Results may vary)

  15. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    As it should be

    ISPs must do their part to stop piracy or they can chose a different business to be in. They certainly profit by allowing piracy so they have a part to play in reducing piracy.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: As it should be

      Don't forget that your logic needs to include those terrible people who make a profit from making the boats that are used by real pirates (not metaphorical ones, unless you're using a Newspeak dictionary)

    2. Sir Runcible Spoon
      Trollface

      Re: As it should be

      Anonymous troll is obvious.

  16. nevstah

    pirated content

    i'm allowed to make a copy of my dvd collection for backup purposes

    i'm allowed to upload said copies to a server hosted on the internet for backup purposes

    i'm allowed to download again, because its copies i made, of my dvd collection

    it only becomes illegal copyright infringement when someone else downloads the data - so the ISP would need to know its me and not someone else downloading the file

    if someone else backs up the same dvd using the same method, the same file would be uploaded to the same server. a clever host would hardlink this to the same inode to save space - how would i, or the ISP know if i was downloading my copy of 'Bob Goes Fishing', or someone elses?

    if you blanket block all video files, how does the ISP 'allow' my home movie i created under GPL entitled 'My fishing Trip'?

    1. Eponymous Cowherd

      Re: pirated content

      Actually, you aren't allowed to make a backup copy of your dvd collection.

      The DMCA and the ECD (in Europe) explicitly outlaw the circumvention of any copy protection systems. You have to circumvent CSS to copy your DVD, and that is a criminal offence.

      In the UK you are not even permitted to make a copy of unprotected media (like CDs), though that is a civil offence, not criminal. You can copy CDs for your own use in the US as "fair use".

      Perversely, if you buy a knock-off DVD (without protection) then copying isn't criminal as that offence was committed by the original copier.

      Copyright law is a huge not-fit-for-purpose mess, which is hugely biased towards big business to the detriment of the consumer.

      1. nevstah

        Re: pirated content

        i stand corrected

        so quick tip of the day - dont let your cherished offspring anywhere near the dvd player or it will get very expensive!

        1. heyrick Silver badge

          Re: pirated content

          "dont let your cherished offspring anywhere near the dvd player or it will get very expensive!"

          Bugger 'em and copy it anyway.

          I rip all the DVDs that I buy. For two reasons - the first, the convenience to watch the content on a tablet. The second? Necessity. Modern Macrovision plays hell with my ancient television so it is literally impossible to watch most films released since around 2004ish without ripping to XviD and getting the DVD player to play the de-Macrovisioned XviD.

          Against the law? I could have sworn the law might have said something about defective merchandise...

  17. Dick Emery

    Where there is a demand..

    Like this has ever worked in the past.

  18. BenBell
    Pint

    God (Simon Travaglia) bless Proxies

  19. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    And this works how exactly?

    EU Copyright Police: BT, some of your users are downloading a pirated copy of "Game of Thrones" named xGameofThrones213444.AVI from 194.71.107.15. I have a court order issued for the copyright owner that obliges you to block this illegal access immediately, you have 45 days to comply.

    BT: WTF?

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