back to article 'Arrogant' Snowden putting lives at risk, says NSA's deputy spyboss

Two days after NSA leaker Edward Snowden addressed the latest TED technology jamboree in robot form, the US intelligence agency has also made an appearance – with deputy director Richard Ledgett dialing in by video link. Ledgett said the NSA's core problem was that it was lousy at PR, rather than that it was invading innocent …

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  1. ThomH

    I disagree. Which means I agree.

    It's pretty clear, as stated in the article, that staff at the NSA routinely abuse its powers. Furthermore the whole approach seems to be scattergun with the overwhelming majority of it being aimed at people who have done nothing wrong and will do nothing wrong but, regardless, are given no opportunity to defend themselves or even any notification that they've been surveilled.

    So given that this was an attempt at PR, I agree that the NSA is lousy as PR.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Stop

      Re: I disagree. Which means I agree. @ThomH

      Where is it pretty clear as stated in the article that the NSA routinely abuse their powers?

      The main mention of anything more than metadata collection is 12 instances over 10 years of "LOVEINT - spying on people they fancy", and that in a linked article anyway.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: I disagree. Which means I agree.

      I dunno what's worse, the spying and blatant breach of privacy.

      or the fact one guy ran off with the entire playbook and spaffed it all over the news.

  2. Chad H.

    Well, if its half truths and distortions... then the leaks arent revealing what you are doing... ergo you have nothing to worry about.

  3. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Right...

    Excuse me if I disagree and say "fuck off, Mr. Ledgett". James Madison would be rolling over in his grave and you know it.

    The fucking arrogance of this fuckwit!

    1. Ole Juul

      Re: Right...

      Ledgett is a sick man.

    2. hplasm
      Thumb Up

      Re: Right...

      My list of people who can Fuck Right Off grows daily.

      Ledgett is on it.

      1. Dr. Mouse

        Re: Right...

        My list of people who can Fuck Right Off grows daily.

        So does mine.

        I think that has more to do with me being a grumpy, cynical bastard, though.

        1. I. Aproveofitspendingonspecificprojects

          Mine is bigger than yours

          ... and was ready and waitng by the time this all came to light.

          But it is OK their collection of my posts and the rest of it is only a PR joke.

          Plus some people don't have internet tubes "and thus we can't get at them" he said.

    3. James Micallef Silver badge

      Re: Right...

      The checks and balances that Madison etc wanted in the constitution are being ridden over roughshod by the intelligence agencies. There are no checks and balances on NSA, CIA etc, they do whatever they bloody want and get the government to rubber-stamp it. If they've been doing something which they realise is highly illegal and are about to get clobbered for it, they destroy the evidence as the CIA did with the torture videotapes. And then lie, obfuscate and do anything int their power legal or not to cover up, up to and including hacking into computers that their oversight committee is using to investigate them. They are waging an all-out war against the checks and balances imposed on them.

      Anyone who wants to increase oversight of them is branded a terrorist-helper. And as per teh iron law of bureaucracy, they're run by people whose primary interest is NOT apprehansion of terrorists, security of teh US etc, but the continued existence and growth of funding, budget, power and capabilities of the NSA, CIA etc irrespective of whether they are needed

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Right...

        The checks and balances that Madison etc wanted in the constitution are being ridden over roughshod by the intelligence agencies. There are no checks and balances on NSA, CIA etc, they do whatever they bloody want and get the government to rubber-stamp it. If they've been doing something which they realise is highly illegal and are about to get clobbered for it, they destroy the evidence as the CIA did with the torture videotapes. And then lie, obfuscate and do anything int their power legal or not to cover up, up to and including hacking into computers that their oversight committee is using to investigate them. They are waging an all-out war against the checks and balances imposed on them.

        The head of the NSA and CIA is named Barack Obama. Why didn't I see his name in your rant?

        1. James Micallef Silver badge

          Re: Right...

          @AC - hmmm, for some reason you seem to be thinking that I'm an Obama fanboi. Truth is I'm not US citizen, I don't think Obama is some sort of saviour, just that for all his faults he's the best of a pretty nasty bunch.

          For what it's worth, yes, Obama did promise to clear up Bush's mess when elected but gave his predecessors free pass. However I'm not convinced he could have done more. He tried to close Guantanamo but was blocked by (Republican) Congress who refused funding for an alternative. And he found enough meltdown and all-out obstruction from political opponents even for just continuing some of Bush's policies (like the bailout, part 1 of which started under Bush). If he had indicted Cheney, Rumsfeld and all points down to the mid tiers of CIA for war crimes and torture, the US would have exploded into civil war. I guess vs CIA, he chose not to fight a battle that would have been very costly to both the US and himself personally whetherhe won or lost.

          With respect to NSA intercepts, yes, Obama totally chickened out and allowed Patriot act abominations to continue unchecked. One point though, Obama is NOT the boss of NSA and CIA, these respond to Congress and the respective oversight committees. Obama can nominate the heads but these need to be approved by Congress.

          1. Oninoshiko

            Re: Wouldn't fund an alternative

            Why does he need an alternative? It sounds like the proposition here is to build "Gitmo 2.0." How is that any better?

          2. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Right...

            For what it's worth, yes, Obama did promise to clear up Bush's mess when elected but gave his predecessors free pass

            What about the worse mess Obama has created on his own? Didn't Obama promise to end warrantless surveillance? Didn't Obama promise "the most transparent administration in American history"? Isn't Obama head of the Executive Branch? Isn't the NSA and CIA part of the Executive Branch?

            Why is Obama using the U.S. Constitution like toilet paper?

            Obama is NOT the boss of NSA and CIA

            Obama is the boss of the NSA and the CIA.

            Did you flunk U.S. history in high school?

          3. Hud Dunlap
            FAIL

            @James Micallef

            So we have another ignorant Obama supporter.

            From the NSA's FAQ's on their website.

            The Director, NSA/Chief, CSS, is GEN Keith B. Alexander, United States Army. The Director is appointed by the Secretary of Defense and approved by the President of the United States. The Director, NSA/Chief, CSS, is always a commissioned military officer with at least a rank of three stars. He also serves as the Commander, U.S. Cyber Command, in a dual assignment.

            I didn't waste my time looking up CIA for you. I doubt you want facts any way.

            Yes Congress has oversight committees for various agencies, but they don't run any of them.

        2. I. Aproveofitspendingonspecificprojects

          He is just a do nothing liberal

          The actual terrrrrrst that caused all this was a chimpanzee from Texas. He set up the torture chambers in Guantanamo because the Iraqis they were torturing in makeshift freight container prisons were so objectionable that the inmates all objected at once and killed two completely innocent CIA researchers.

          Poor little things. Ahhhh.

          Now the research can be conducted in safety of all concerned. And at the leisure of everyone on the list. Those not on the list can be completly sure they are not on the list. Trust me, I'm a doctor -of news bulletins.

  4. Chris G

    I agree with all of the above

    See title

  5. All names Taken
    Happy

    yawn

    Yawn?

  6. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Dear Richard Ledgett,

    Fuck off!

    Yours etc, XX*

    * I was going to use my handle but thought that I'd make the NSA work just a little bit harder.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Trollface

      Re: Dear Richard Ledgett,

      Don't worry - they know exactly who you are and already have all your files.

      Including your nude selfies.

      Even the NSA needs to have someone to laugh at.

  7. Eguro

    The founding fathers!

    Why is this such a trope in public discourse in the US?

    Now granted I'm only following it from the sidelines, but it seems that somehow the argument that "it's what the founding fathers intended" or it's opposite is supposed to have weight.

    And it might have weight if it wasn't used willy nilly all the bloody time! The argument is usually nothing more than "I think that Thomas Jefferson would agree with me".

    So to Mr. NSA - if you truly believe that there is no trouble in how the checks and balances are applied, then why are many of these things apparently news to the committee meant to provide those checks and balances?

    Oh and one last thing, this article was riddled with half-finished sentences and repeated phrases. Someone - not me - should proof read it.

    1. ThomH

      Re: The founding fathers!

      It's more absurd than you'd think: admittedly obliquely, answering a popular British press criticism of the revolution, Jefferson wrote:

      "And can history produce an instance of a rebellion so honourably conducted? ... God forbid we should ever be 20. years without such a rebellion. ... What country ever existed a century and a half without a rebellion? And what country can preserve it's liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms."

      Which obviously doesn't mean that the founding fathers considered intended the American constitution (and, indeed, the Constitution) to be a flexible thing but probably does mean that Americans need the largely unrestricted right to bear arms.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: The founding fathers!

        I've always liked Franklins often seemingly ambivalent view of the constitution and its likelihood of success. But in particular this speech, taken down apparently by James Madison:

        "In these Sentiments, Sir, I agree to this Constitution, with all its Faults, if they are such; because I think a General Government necessary for us, and there is no Form of Government but what may be a Blessing to the People if well administered; and I believe farther that this is likely to be well administered for a Course of Years, and can only end in Despotism as other Forms have done before it, when the People shall become so corrupted as to need Despotic Government, being incapable of any other."

        I doubt very much he'd have been patting the NSA on the back were he around today.

        http://www.pbs.org/benfranklin/pop_finalspeech.html

      2. John Smith 19 Gold badge
        Coat

        @ThornH

        ""And can history produce an instance of a rebellion so honourably conducted? ... God forbid we should ever be 20. years without such a rebellion. ... What country ever existed a century and a half without a rebellion? And what country can preserve it's liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms.""

        Actually that sounds somewhat like Chairman Mao's idea of a "continuous" revolution.

        Which really is Communist.

        Mine's the one with that little Red book in the side pocket.

      3. big_D Silver badge

        Re: The founding fathers!

        I'm more for the right to arm bears, then we might see some action.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: The founding fathers!

      Because they assume that slave driving, tax shy, treaty breaking land thieves are the fount of all wisdom and can not possibly be wrong.

      Also, since all of them are dead, it is safe to call upon them without contradiction.

  8. volsano

    Half truths because much of what Mr Snowden has released is up to five years out-of-date.

    The other half - what has happened since 2008 - may be even more disturbing.

  9. Ted Treen
    Big Brother

    "Ledgett said the NSA's core problem was that it was lousy at PR, rather than that it was invading innocent people's privacy"

    It would appear that Ledgett is (one of) the NSA's core problems.

  10. ElReg!comments!Pierre

    It's funny because * it's ** true.

    *everyone knows

    **not

  11. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    "This ignores the fact that, as a contractor, he had no whistleblower protection under the law, not to mention was aware of what happened to other NSA staff who complained – such as William Binney, who was arrested at gunpoint in his shower and spent five years in legal limbo."

    Ah yes, use fear to show others not to come forward when they see wrongs constantly being made.

    "Ledgett said that the documents Snowden was responsible for leaking were full of "half-truths and distortions.""

    The means the NSA were the ones producing half-truths and distortions. How do we know that is still not the case?

    "The capabilities [of the NSA] are applied in very discreet, measured, controlled ways," the deputy director said."

    Change discreet to secret (as in secret courts), measured must mean all information, controlled means long-term storage.

    "“We don’t sit there and grind out metadata profiles of average people. If you’re not connected to one of those intelligence targets, you’re not of interest to us,” Ledgett insisted."

    Intelligence target is probably a synonym for everyone. You don't need call data for everyone now do you?

    1. Intractable Potsherd

      " '... If you’re not connected to one of those intelligence targets, you’re not of interest to us,' Ledgett insisted."

      He may be correct, but missed out the word, "yet". Half-truth and distortion is a habit with these bastards.

  12. Solmyr ibn Wali Barad
    Facepalm

    Excellent PR

    "He claimed the agency only slurped the communications of targeted individuals"

    And vice versa, if your comms are slurped, it means you're a target. Let's hope that the actual scale of slurping never becomes public... oh, bugger.

    "and said that the vast majority of people who weren't on the target list had nothing to fear from his spies."

    Whereas the remaining minority who weren't on the target list...

    Oh dear. What a way to dig themselves out of the hole. They must be half way to China by now.

    1. Dylan Fahey

      Re: Excellent PR

      And don't you know, EVERYONE is a target until proven innocent. That's the way NSA works. Collect it all, let "insert program name here" sort it out later.

      I'll say it again. I have no problem with the CIA/NSA etc, doing data collection, but only where a warrant was issued. You can't tell me that in the 21st century, you can't email a judge and in 5 minutes have a warrant.

      And really, no juicy pics from any of that surveillance, what's the world coming to ?? /jk

  13. bigtimehustler

    To be fair, is there any point any more of covering what the NSA say about this? They are never going to say they were wrong, not ever, no matter what they have been caught doing now or in the future. They will always say its not true, its half true or that what they do is required. That after all, is their job. They are not going to say yes, sorry, we are all doing a bad job here, fire us. It makes no sense to listen to the accused defend themselves when they are still hiding the evidence required to prosecute them.

    1. Intractable Potsherd

      Yes, there is *every* point in covering what they say, for exactly the reasons you point out.

  14. Spoddyhalfwit

    Won't believe him

    Until he explains what Angela Merkel and the Brazilian state oil company have to do with terrorism, drug smuggling and child abuse, and why Clapper lied in public to congress then I imagine most people aren't going to swallow his bullshit, and will view Snowden as a (rather brave) whistleblower.

  15. dan1980

    Less 'PR', more truth please.

    I agree that they are not explaining themselves to the public well enough.

    The problem, however, is that every official statement or response (like this) is almost entirely composed of vague or intentionally un-defined terms. There is too much PR, not enough honesty.

    So, only people who are "connected" to "intelligence targets" are of interest to the NSA?

    That nice but offers no comfort whatsoever until you define what criteria constitutes an 'intelligence target' and who is 'connected' to that target. Likewise every other statement.

    Spying is conducted in a "measured" fashion? Great - 100% is a measure.

    You "are not" tapping world leaders' phones? Superb. But were you?

    You "have not" spread malware to a million PCs at once. Couldn't be happier, but could you?

    As always with politicians and 'public servants'*, ask them a direct question and they'll answer a different one.

    * - I use the term so very, very loosely . . .

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Less 'PR', more truth please.

      "So, only people who are "connected" to "intelligence targets" are of interest to the NSA?"

      ...and no matter who they start out watching, they always end up back at Kevin Bacon!

  16. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Bollocks

    "Ledgett said that the documents Snowden was responsible for leaking were full of "half-truths and distortions." As a result, the intelligence-gathering facilities of the US had been damaged."

    What a load of absolute bollocks, so the US's ability to gather intelligence - which is actually compromising encryption standards, vandalising fiber cables, conducting government-sponsored cyber terrorism for which normal people would go to prison, tapping friendly mobile phones, and so, depressingly, on - is damaged because some documents got out which are full of what he calls half-truths? Terrorists are apparently barking up the wrong tree here, they just need to bang out some ropey Powerpoint docs to take down the US.

    "He claimed the agency only slurped the communications of targeted individuals, and said that the vast majority of people who weren't on the target list had nothing to fear from his spies."

    Yes, well that's bollocks too, but if we're being charitable it cuts both ways - honest, country-serving security agencies operating within the law have nothing to fear from disclosures by whistleblowers.

  17. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    There's an arrogance to the US too...

    The complete disregard for what the rest of the world wants. But they love talking down to us with fairytales of American lives saved! How much longer can the NSA defend itself this way until the rest of us in the outlands question whether the US is worth saving...

    I lived there for two decades. I lost friends including my brother to random gun violence. I know this is more about Military Industrial Complex spending than protecting innocent lives. You should see how little is spent making the streets safer in major US cities. But when you're a millionaire congress bought and paid for, you don't have to take a bus very often.

    Yes, the NSA Stasi is a runaway train. And with the US elite behaving more like a totalitarian regime every day, who can say the wealth gap won't eventually reach that of North Korea... Americans should study Squanderville versus Thriftville!

    1. Sherrie Ludwig

      Re: There's an arrogance to the US too...

      I'm a US citizen, born here, and horrified by what my country has become. Yes, on the whole, Americans are smug, having been fed that "greatest free democracy in the world" line for at least since WWII. Yes, most are totally ignorant of world views, courtesy of our miserable "news"outlets. And the average cit has NO INTEREST in changing that, and in fact is proud of it. I have served as an election judge for a few years, and the level of interest and knowledge of even our own civics is nearly nil. If you ever want to get an idea of how far from informed the populace is, tune in to any Fox News, motto "fair and balanced", broadcast, and listen to the modern Goebbels and Himmler big lie. Please let me know, Reg community, how things go in your home countries, I'm shopping for where to go retire, somewhere that the gov isn't in my bedroom, the healthcare isn't for the rich only, and people can discuss issues and disagree politely without drawing weapons.

      1. Intractable Potsherd

        Re: There's an arrogance to the US too...

        Well, I'm still working on getting my wife to agree to return to the Czech Republic. Their government couldn't organise a piss-up in a brewery (ironic, given the central role of beer in the country), so intelligence gathering is unlikely. Their press have few scruples, and are always trying to trip up governmental bodies. Their healthcare system is universal, though still about twenty years adrift of UK standards in terms of medical paternalism. The population are still so aware of how power can be abused they don't even allow police to have unmarked cars (unless that has changed in the last few years). Arguments about politics are common, but rarely (I've never seen it happen in over ten years) get beyond "Oh, fuck off!" Oh, and really good beer all over the place at reasonable prices!

        Trouble is, whilst she would not want the country she grew up in until 1989 to come back, the new one isn't my wife's "home". I doubt we will ever live there.

      2. This post has been deleted by its author

  18. George Capehart

    Checks and balances?!?!?!?!? We don't need no steenkin' checks and balances!

    "The bigwig said that the US President James Madison, one of the key writers of the US Constitution, would be "would be proud" that the checks and balances enunciated by America's fourth president still worked in today's digital age."

    Um, well, no. If they were working as intended, normal governance processes would have stuck a stake in the plan to do mass surveillance before it got off the ground. The NSA has been deliberately evasive, obtuse, obstructionist and lied about what it's been doing . . . to the committees that were (supposed to) provide oversight.

    The NSA truly does have a bad PR problem, and Ledgett just adds to it . . .

  19. This post has been deleted by its author

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Richard Ledgett

      As we all know power corrupts so,, no one can/should be trusted with all those capabilities.

      But what happens if it's shown that, at the same time, that same power becomes necessary to maintain the sovereignty of a country? IOW, it's shown to be a necessary evil?

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Richard Ledgett

        That depends how you define sovereignty. As far as I am aware there isn't any credible threat to US sovereignty that could potentially be foiled by spying on Merkel, normal US citizens or hell even European citizens.

        I mean Osama bin Laden wasn't a credible threat to US sovereignty, though he (or his allies) could be a threat to US lives, but if that's what we're talking about then there are plenty of threats to US sovereignty interred in prisons inside the US - why are they not taking action against this massive threat?

        But surely US sovereignty means that the US is allowed to do most of whatever it might feel like doing inside its borders (barring any genocides or such things). This might be where the argument stems from? But there is a difference between sovereignty and sovereign. So it's really only if the sovereign of the US agrees that mass surveillance is a great idea, that it would be a threat to the sovereignty if that surveillance was diminished. Problem is the sovereign of the US is supposed to be the US people, which leads to the fun little fact that we seem to have a sovereign spying on 'himself' without knowing it...

  20. PghMike

    Why does the NSA continue to lie?

    I don't know why they bother to say stuff like "[T]he agency only slurped the communications of targeted individuals." It's clear that's untrue -- it's clear they record everything, and then (theoretically) only listen to stuff that they're interested in.

    The real information that Snowden exposed is that those things that you knew were theoretically possible to do, but didn't seem worth doing, they *are* doing. Whether it's recording everything, or putting in sufficient backdoors to break any standard encryption algorithm, they're doing it.

  21. Allan George Dyer
    Black Helicopters

    "discreet, measured, controlled ways"

    I see…

    "Is it secret?"

    "Check!"

    "Is it big?"

    "Check!"

    "Do we have control?"

    "Check!"

  22. heenow

    Don't Forget Boss Hogg

    What this ignoramus fails to consider is that the local yokel Boss Hoggs of the world can tap into the NSA's database with the thinnest of reasons.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Don't Forget Boss Hogg

      You got any proof of that boy? More seriously commentators keep coming up with these statements and discounting the occasional abuse I just don't see any real evidence this is happening.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        "You got any proof of that boy?"

        http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/09/30/nsa_gmen_snooped_on_lovers/

        http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/503224.stm - ("Its a totally lawless world")

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: "You got any proof of that boy?"

          The examples given do not support the original claim that various and sundry "boss hoggs" could access the NSA databases. Indeed, there is no evidence that Edward Snowden was able to do that.

          Twelve instances of individual military and civilian agency employees do not constitute a pattern of agency abuse, and a 15 year old article about an even older program suggests, if anything, that the NSA poses a much smaller threat to anyone than the general run of comments asserts.

  23. W. Anderson

    If you read what Ledgett is reaaly saying...idiotic

    The documents that Edward Snowden leaked were "official" NSA documents, vetted by several USA and International credible Media - like the NY Times, The Washington Post, The Guardian, The Globe and Mail, Der Spiegel and others.

    Therefore any"lies and half truths" were those of NSA, and Richard Ledgett is making himself and his agency look more asinine than it already is.

  24. Scoular

    'Arrogant' !!!

    NSA and the US government must have used a mirror.

  25. Charles Manning

    Of course NSA puts USA at risk

    Rewind to the 1980s or so, and USA had great international goodwill. Fast forward to late 1990s and the wheels started to fall off the bus, Now any goodwill is well and truly shot.

    Yes folks, there was once a time when American backpackers in Europe would have a US flag on their backpacks and not the Canadian flag!

    If 9/11 had happened in the 1980s, most people in the world would have been outraged. When it happened (2001), far more people could see the opposing point of view. If it happened now, probably most people would consider it nasty, but pretty much "ah well, you had that coming to you".

    Now, I am not promoting terrorism or anything, but merely pointing out how far the old Stars and Stripes has slid down the flag pole in the last two decades or so.

    A great part of that erosion of goodwill is the way USA arrogantly wades in where it does not belong, including making war for bugger-all reason, spying on everyone and screwing over everyone they can.

    When they do this, they increase the hostility towards themselves and thus increase the likelihood of attacks.

    Thus, what the NSA does certainly increases the risks the USA faces, particularly now that the USA's international power is fading and it's ability to enforce its bully tactics is decreasing.

    The only way out is to start rebuilding the goodwill:

    * Start playing nice with the other kids.

    * Stop spying on them.

    A good starting gesture would be to

    * completely disband and purge the NSA.

    * hold some public enquiries to find, and prosecute, any criminal acts by NSA.

    * bulldoze that monstrous data centre in the desert.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Of course NSA puts USA at risk

      The wheels actually started falling off with president Ray Gun...

    2. dervheid
      Facepalm

      Re: Of course NSA puts USA at risk

      And the UK are is the same situation for pretty much the same reasons.

      Only we have the additional problem of being led by idiots who STILL think that 'Great Britain' is still a world power. And of course there are plenty of knuckle-dragging sheeple here who share the same blind patriotic fervour as some of their knuckle-dragging American cousins.

      If it weren't for the fact that the UK has nuclear weapons, NO-ONE would pay even the slightest bit of attention to the sabre-rattling coming from our Scumvernment

      So as above.

      Wind our necks in

      Shut the fuck up

      Mind our own business

      Leave the big boys to play their silly games

    3. Roj Blake Silver badge

      Re: Of course NSA puts USA at risk

      "Yes folks, there was once a time when American backpackers in Europe would have a US flag on their backpacks and not the Canadian flag!"

      I'm 75% English but I hope that the Scottish vote "yes" in the Autumn so I can get myself a Scottish passport and no longer be ashamed of being British when abroad.

      1. FlatSpot

        Re: Of course NSA puts USA at risk

        "no longer be ashamed of being British when abroad."

        Slightly random, I've been to many places in the world, Middle East, US, Europe and never felt ashamed to be British and never faced any hostility either.

        I also hope Scotland votes Yes as well, it will give you the opportunity to loose the chip on your shoulder that you like to polish and froth about.

      2. BeerTokens
        Headmaster

        Re: Of course NSA puts USA at risk

        @Roj Blake

        you will still be british...

        http://cdn.visualnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/the-united-kingdom-explained.png

    4. fung0

      Re: Of course NSA puts USA at risk

      Charles Manning sez: "When they do this, they increase the hostility towards themselves and thus increase the likelihood of attacks."

      Works out perfectly, then. More spying and more 'interventions' abroad mean more hatred against the US and more terrorist threats. More hatred against the US and more terrorist threats mean we need more spying and more 'interventions' abroad. Repeat, as long as you like.

      It's kind of beautiful, really... in a monumentally evil, Mephistophelian kind of way.

  26. DerekCurrie
    FAIL

    NSA Deputy Director Richard Ledgett: Go To Jail. Go Directly To Jail…

    … For Treason.

    Bravado, FUD, propaganda (aka 'PR') and pushing around US citizens (aka your bosses) accomplishes nothing in the effort to hide your crimes. The NSA went rogue. You lost your integrity. You broke your vow to protect and defend the Constitution of the USA.

    Go To Jail.

    Disband the NSA.

    Start again, legally and properly.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: NSA Deputy Director Richard Ledgett: Go To Jail. Go Directly To Jail…

      Everyone yells "Disband the NSA" until the next terrorist attack occurs, then it's suddenly, "We need security!" As it stands, we can't have it both ways. Internal secrecy means our own government becomes an existential threat. Disband that secrecy, we open ourselves up to existential threats from without (and since we can't please everyone, someone out there's going to desire to totally destroy our civilization and stop at nothing to achieve it).

      1. Schultz

        Re: NSA Deputy Director Richard Ledgett: Go To Jail. Go Directly To Jail…

        I thought the fundamental idea of having a free and democratic society is that it does lead to more security and a better world in the long term. This concept was heavily propagated by the US in the time of the cold war and Nazi Germany. Alternatively you can try to gain some extra security today -- just lock away all those political / religious / ethnic troublemakers. But the resulting regimes usually become violently unstable after a while. North Korea is the big exception, China might go either way.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: NSA Deputy Director Richard Ledgett: Go To Jail. Go Directly To Jail…

          Three words: They were wrong.

          Freedom is dual-use. It inherently includes with it the vulnerability to undermine itself. And given human nature, someone will eventually latch onto that vulnerability. Take Oklahoma City. The freedom to purchase diesel fuel and fertilizer and rent a truck (all completely legitimate normally) = the ability to detonate a truck full of homemade ANFO with deadly results. It wouldn't be too much of a stretch to think someone(s) can use those freedoms to come up with an existential threat.

          So what'll it be? Accept Big Brother or accept the Big Bang?

          1. dervheid

            Re: NSA Deputy Director Richard Ledgett: Go To Jail. Go Directly To Jail…

            So, what are you advocating here? Banning the sale of diesel & fertilizer? Banning truck rental?

            Universal Quasi-governmental wire-tapping? Do you want us all living back in the fecking stone-age, because no amount of scumvenmental wire-tapping will prevent the lone, or close-knit group of crazy motherfuckers doing as above.

            If our various scumvernments stopped trying to impose 'our way of doing things' on people & cultures that like, and WANT, to do things differently, then the 'organisations' that our scumvernments have whipped you (and the rest of the sheeple) into believing want to destroy your way of life, rape your women, drink the blood of your children (won't somebody think of the CHILDREN!!) or whatever cockamamie idea that's been dreampt up next will be seen as the smoke and mirrors that they are.

            Stop watching Fox 'News' (or the BBC). Turn of the fear machine. let others deal with their own problems in their own way unless they ask for help. And above all: shut down the global arms machine.

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: NSA Deputy Director Richard Ledgett: Go To Jail. Go Directly To Jail…

              I'm advocating for going with the serene route and just go on living and realize we're screwed either way. Odds are we won't be able to improve our lot, and even if we can we'll just be staving off the inevitable (which is DTA anarchy resulting in eventual winner dictatorship, the cycle repeats until we don't survive a round). Humanity like anything is going to have a bad apple, and as the adage goes, one ruins everything. It's like thermodynamics: you can't win, you can't break even, you can't leave the game. Might as well just go along for the ride unless you wanna take the easy way out.

              PS. I've stopped watching all news, as it's all become too opinionated, even when they "report" news. So this is all my own design, not the result of any news influence.

      2. Sherrie Ludwig

        Re: NSA Deputy Director Richard Ledgett: Go To Jail. Go Directly To Jail…

        Those who trade freedom for security will have neither freedom nor security. I live in the USA and want the NSA stripped down and disbanded. They did not protect the Boston Marathon, they do f-all to shield us against the shooters in schools and theatres, or against the completely crazy "tea party" people who are trying to take over the government. Their rationale is "Look at all the tigers we have saved you from!" "There are no tigers roaming here" "Yes, and we have saved you from them all!"

        1. tom dial Silver badge

          Re: NSA Deputy Director Richard Ledgett: Go To Jail. Go Directly To Jail…

          The seemingly endless paraphrase of Benjamin Franklin's observation would carry more weight if, in fact, there were evidence that NSA surveillance activities had resulted in reduction of freedom. Some people might feel inhibited or even fearful, but it is pretty hard to connect the NSA to any government actions like arrest, or worse, that would justify such feelings.

          The accusations, here and elsewhere, that NSA failed to prevent the Boston Marathon bombing, or school or theater shootings are spurious. These events appear to have been hatched within the US, and therefore not to have been legal NSA targets. The FBI might have dropped the ball in the Boston case, but it is far from clear that any evidence available ahead of time would have justified an arrest. Unlike NSA employees, FBI agents are armed with weapons and arrest authority. We do not want them arresting people on suspicion that they are planning something bad or based on warnings from foreign police. The events mentioned, tragic as they are, suggest that the US is not a police state.

          As for the TEA Party people: they are citizens exercising their constitutional rights under Article I and the first and other amendments to seek office and influence government action as they consider proper. Of course they are trying to take over the government, the same as those now in office, TEA Party, other Republican, Democrat, or Socialist, have done. They have the same right to compete in the political arena as any others. Some might think them crazy, but some others think Democrats are crazy. The notion implicit in this sorry post that they should be suppressed by government action is as anti-American as the worst the NSA stands accused of doing.

      3. fung0
        Megaphone

        Re: NSA Deputy Director Richard Ledgett: Go To Jail. Go Directly To Jail…

        Anonymous coward sez: "Everyone yells "Disband the NSA" until the next terrorist attack occurs, then it's suddenly, "We need security!"

        On the contrary... a great many people, myself included, are saying loudly and plainly: "Disband the spies, police and military, and by all means, bring on the terrorists!" These mushrooming government agencies are a looming threat over every aspect of our daily lives, whereas the actual danger from terrorists has never been more than vanishingly small.

        We need to do as much to protect ourselves from terrorism as we do to protect ourselves from lightning strikes and bathroom accidents. Anything more is a waste of taxpayer dollars, and the thin end of totalitarian government over-reach.

        1. Tom 38

          Re: NSA Deputy Director Richard Ledgett: Go To Jail. Go Directly To Jail…

          On the contrary... a great many people, myself included, are saying loudly and plainly: "Disband the spies, police and military, and by all means, bring on the terrorists!"

          And then voting Democrat or Republican.

        2. tom dial Silver badge

          Re: NSA Deputy Director Richard Ledgett: Go To Jail. Go Directly To Jail…

          "On the contrary... a great many people, myself included, are saying loudly and plainly: "Disband the spies, police and military, and by all means, bring on the terrorists!"

          That is now. In late 2001 the Patriot Act was passed with votes of 357 of the 435 House members (82%) and 98 of 100 Senators (98%) and contemporary polls measured widespread support. Those of us who opposed it either in part or in its entirety were heavily outnumbered and too often silent.

      4. P. Lee

        Re: NSA Deputy Director Richard Ledgett: Go To Jail. Go Directly To Jail…

        Disband the USA.

        Start again, legally and properly.

  27. big_D Silver badge
    Mushroom

    Earth Tremor

    Earthquake sensors picked up massive tremors in the vicinity of Madison's grave yesterday...

  28. John Smith 19 Gold badge
    Unhappy

    Who *wrote* those documents?

    ""half-truths and distortions.""

    And who were they written to be read by?

    Because by Ledgett's description they were either written to suggest the NSA cas capabilities it does not, which sounds like setting up a fraud to milk the US Black budget or does he mean they were written to play down the NSA capabilities, which are in fact more extensive than stated?

    Note that the NSA under Shrub didn't need to do PR.

    Because they (virtually) believed they were "On a mission from God"

  29. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Here's my thought. Can a country operate without any secrets whatsoever? If not, then I don't think it's possible to have a country worthy of trust for the simple reason that as long as a country has to keep a secret, there's no way to know if the secret is justified (for the simple reason that it's a secret).

    So IOW, keeping secrets = no trust in the people, but no secrecy = no defense. Pick your poison, we're screwed either way.

    1. Schultz
      FAIL

      You seem to live in a world of black an white...

      but maybe I can interest you in a few million shades of grey.

      One might imagine a country with a modest secret service, reasonably secure, democratic and with a very limited number of secrets. Actually, almost all true democracies are such countries and the US used to be the same before they started pumping billions of dollars into black ops.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: You seem to live in a world of black an white...

        No, I am not interested in shades of gray because this scale polarizes. IOW, give it enough time and you end up with either black or white..Grays don't stay gray for long.

        The thing about polities is that they usually can't stay that way for long. Eventually, internal elements corrupt the system and degenerate the government. I much equate the US at present to the latter days of Rome. All the others, who followed in the US's footsteps to some degree, are simply earlier along that same timeline: IOW, they'll become like the US (and Rome) eventually.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: You seem to live in a world of black an white...

          Instead of seeing it as "everything gray will eventually become black and white" why not in reverse? If things truly always moved towards being black and white, then surely human society would've just stagnated in year -10.000. It's exactly because black and white is dangerous that it keeps being broken up into more intricate connections and viewpoints.

          Even if things revert to a black and white stage of whatever sort, it can't and wont last - no matter how much those on top want it to (they will probably just ride along with the changes and stay on top anyway).

          There's always a new generation coming along and there'll always be some who disagree with how things are, that's how we progress and regress (and congress?). Have some faith in humanity, I mean otherwise what's the fucking point?

          1. fung0

            Re: You seem to live in a world of black an white...

            If things truly always moved towards being black and white, then surely human society would've just stagnated in year -10.000.

            Exactly. Look back 100 years, 200 years. We've come a very long way. Right now, we're on a downward part of the curve, but it's not a vicious circle, it's an upward spiral.

          2. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: You seem to live in a world of black an white...

            I disagree. I think what we're seeing is a bungee effect, yes, but with each "bounce" more weight (power) is added to the line. I think we're just about at the point where a bounce-back may not be possible because the concentration of power is too great and the extremism so much that mutual destruction is preferred to surrender. Instead, the line will snap and the entire power structure will collapse (if not civilization itself).

    2. d3rrial

      Well, trustless currency works. Why not trustless governments?

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Actually, currency can't work without trust. It's trust that allows currency to operate. What good is a bitcoin if no one will accept (= trust) it?

        Same with government. We trust them with some power over us in the name of order. Thing is, in this day and age, we're virtually in DTA mode. Without trust, government has no authority. No authority = no government = anarchy.

  30. Amorous Cowherder
    Pint

    Can't say I'd want to work in the NSA's PR dept!

    A year ago everything was dandy in the PR dept at the NSA. An easy job, turn up and simply write "Allegation denied! Nothing to see here!" on everything.

    Nowadays they must get up in the morning and it has to be such a struggle to even bother get dressed properly, before heading into work to something so futile as to try to "big up" how great the NSA really is! Ha ha!

  31. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    "That's extremely arrogant on his part."

    to use such cheap language in this particular environment which is way more intelligent and perceptive of arrogance that an average Joe.

  32. Big_Ted
    Facepalm

    Oh dear you all seem to have missed it.....

    "He claimed the agency only slurped the communications of targeted individuals, and said that the vast majority of people who weren't on the target list had nothing to fear from his spies."

    This if you look at it from his point of view is a licence to spy on everyone.

    Just imagine that the target list is everyone with an internet connection then he is telling the truth, the vast majority of those without access have nothing to fear as they will have at best dumb mobiles that can only text or call.....

  33. teebie

    "I think there's an amazing arrogance to the idea that [Snowden] knows better than the framers of the Constitution how the government should be designed to work in terms of separation of powers,"

    I can't confidently compare the legal expertise of some blokes from 2 centuries ago to Snowden's, but I'm pretty sure he knows more about the sort of surveilance that has only become possible in the last few years than a bunch of revered skeletons.

    "Ledgett said that the documents Snowden was responsible for leaking were full of "half-truths and distortions." "

    Well, that's one of the things we are complaining about...

    "The capabilities [of the NSA] are applied in very discreet, measured, controlled ways," the deputy director said."

    'everything' is, of course, a discrete measurement

  34. All names Taken
    Alien

    Seriously folks - did anyone expect the man to 'fess up? In public? Online?

    He has a large salary and incredible pension to protect and IT is just not the money earner it used to be in good ol' US of A.

    Besides, he was fearful NSA might have eavesdropped?

    (Tsk - you earthlings - Wot r u like?)

  35. JaitcH
    WTF?

    Faced with a choice of the NSA or Edward Snowden ...

    being the more trustworthy, my vote is overwhelmingly Edward Snowden.

    No one has proved he has lied, to date, whereas Jug-eared Clapper and his pal Keith Alexander have consistently lied, wittingly or unwittingly.

  36. Josh Holman

    "The net effect is our people who are overseas…are at greater risk because we don't see the threats that are coming their way."

    That's because YOU are the threat.

  37. Christian Berger

    Why do people invite the NSA to speak?

    I mean it's obviously clear that everything you will get is just pure PR on the edge of lying. Plus those people already have more than enough of a platform to speak on. We don't need to help them with their PR.

  38. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    NSA hacked Huawei ..

    Source Code Breached: "According to a top secret NSA presentation, NSA workers not only succeeded in accessing the email archive, but also the secret source code of individual Huwaei products .. the Americans were able to read a large share of the email sent by company workers beginning in January 2009, including messages from company CEO Ren Zhengfei and Chairwoman Sun Yafang." link

  39. scrubber

    Dear NSA,

    If you're doing nothing wrong you have nothing to fear.

    Cunts, cunts, cunts.

    Regards,

    Scrubber.

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