Leyland, ICL, Post Office Telecom
All went south as did most "nationalised" industries
They still got paid even when producing crap services so had no pride
Tony Benn, the modernising Labour MP who tried to pit British technology against US giants has died at the age of 88. It was Benn, a minister in two Labour governments during the 1960s and 1970s, who created ICL (International Computers Limited) to take on the growing might of IBM. It was mainframes at dawn in the post-war …
My phone line cabling put in in that era works fine, just like a lot of others.
Has a lot more copper in than the newer stuff, according to an Openreach engineer (or any at all, if it is aluminium).
I doubt anyone's going to jump in and sing the praises of British Leyland, though, but there are people that fall in love with anything.
>Leyland, ICL, Post Office Telecom
>All went south as did most "nationalised" industries
Unlike their privately-owned equivalents in the UK and elsewhere, which are always roaring consumer-friendly successes?
I liked Benn. Last of the old-school Labourites who stood for something valuable, from a time when the party hadn't yet drowned in Westminster slime and corruption.
...as opposed to the throughout fantastic successes of private enterprises (completely non-subsidized and non-bailed-out by the tax payer) which we are enjoying especially since 2008, and which have increased wealth and well-being world-wide and across the social board...
<Quote>
Leyland, ICL, Post Office Telecom
All went south as did most "nationalised" industries
They still got paid even when producing crap services so had no pride
</Quote>
And you think privatised and other publicly owned UK industries are doing really well and are full of people diligently working away with pride in their company?
Or are you talking crap?
I would agree with Robin Cook for the same reason as you gave. The tin foil hat brigade may also wonder at his demise...
Others? Enoch Powell. Suffered, without doubt, by the misquoted and misunderstood Rivers of Blood speech which seems to be turning out all to be prophetic I would also add Paddy Ashdown to the short list.
There are others which are lurking on the back benches and will never see the light of the day because they're the honest brokers of Westminster but aren't in the power game which puts them into cabinets and shadow cabinets. There are others which are in minority parties whom I am impressed with, one of whom includes Elfyn Llwyd one of the senior members of Plaid.
There's only one in the Tory party that I will ever hold my glass to. And that's John Major who, in my mind, went a long way to get the Irish Peace Process started but seemed to have avoided all the plaudits. As Chancellor he wasn't any great shakes but as PM he was the least worst in my lifetime. I asked my mother once who was the best PM she'd ever known and after pausing for a minute came up with Asquith's name. That alone is a sorry state of political affairs where the modern day career politician is an entirely new breed of lizard little known to mankind.
Even though Wilson was rather useless, he had principles and was perhaps one of the least worst, even though I was no great fan of the man.
Anyway, it's all subjective. But Benn was one of the best of the bunch even though his policies were flawed in my book. That didn't stop me admiring the man.
The important thing is not so much having the courage of your convictions, but having the right convictions in the 1st place.
I could have convictions that aliens are controlling my thought processes if I do not wear a tinfoil hat. That would not necessarily make me a person that you want to lead the country
There have been many politicians both on the far left and right who kept up the courage of their convictions rto the bitter end. But history does not remember them well.
The important thing is not so much having the courage of your convictions, but having the right convictions in the 1st place.
I disagree. To my mind, having *any* convictions makes you supoerior to the current bunch of muppets.
I could have convictions that aliens are controlling my thought processes if I do not wear a tinfoil hat
I would respect that far more than I do these career pols who will do a complete about-turn in policy at the drop of a fiver.
There have been many politicians both on the far left and right who kept up the courage of their convictions rto the bitter end. But history does not remember them well.
Give it a few years, and I think history will be kinder to them than it will be to the "trust me - I have seen conclusive proof of WMDs which I can't share with you" brigade...
Vic.
"There have been many politicians both on the far left and right who kept up the courage of their convictions to the bitter end. But history does not remember them well."
That was my first thought too. The most egregious: Lenin, Trotsky, Stalin, Hitler.
The matter of politicians and programs is a question of what one thinks a politician's job really is: to reflect the concerns of his constituents, or to force his program onto them. There does not seem to be an answer that is always right; the closest thing to a "right" answer is "improve the economy, lose no wars".
(I also note the many comments in this thread seem say "He was a great guy, and a great politician, but thank heavens he didn't get elected". Quite an envoi, really.)
Yep - he had strong principles and had more honesty in his little finger than most MPs have in their entire body.
He was funny too. An opposition MP called out that he was flogging a dead horse whilst he was talking on a subject in Parliament. Benn called back something about his learned (Tory) friend's ability to roll bestiality, necrophilia and bondage into one act and carried on talking.
He'll be missed. Here's to you, Tony Benn!
First off, well done to Gavin Clarke. Of all the TB items I have seen, only this one mentions ICL or the fact that he was an RAF pilot.
... I actually respect [Tony Benn] ... as he kept the courage of his convictions and didn't sell his ideas out for personal gain
Well yes, but it also depends on what those convictions are. Benn seems to have been a decent man, but harboured some extreme views, and they steadily hardened into something that looked, eventually, more like a mindless ideology than a political view. He did not appear to question or examine his own views, or to agonize over difficult issues, or to let anyone else's view influence him in any way. That combination - an isolated, extreme mindset, slavishly followed - leads down dangerous paths, especially when the individual is such a tremendous public speaker. Somebody called Benn "the most dangerous man in Britain" and I have to partly agree.
Yesterday one of the Sunday papers carried exerts from his diaries which made excellent reading, I might buy the book. He came across as very different to his public persona, and seemed warm and very human. Obviously loved his wife. Was a bit daft. For example, visiting Saddam Hussain just before the gulf war - seems nuts but he said he was trying to avert war, or almost blowing up his own house trying to heat a pizza.
He talked at our Students' Union, and as a hack, I got to chat with him
Thoroughly nice chap, I know that politicians have to be professionaly nice, but he just seemed genuine, always open to debate alternate opinions, but within a few minutes you'd have doubts about your own long held ideas.
Sad loss, but we all have to go when we go.
If I remember rightly, the TSR2 super-sonic bomber was cancelled by Mr Benn. Much of the technology went on to be used in Concorde.
As mentioned by others above, while I did not like his politics, I do respect him for his intellect and honest approach. Something you can;t say oftern, if at all about many folks in the 'bubble' nowadays
RIP
I heard a thing on Radio 4 this morning by the BBC political editor. Apparently when he went to Benn's house to interview him the place was crammed full of old tech - 8 track tape decks, BBC micros, etc - all still working.
Apparently Benn has been recording and writing all his life and needed to keep the old tech working so he could access his old stuff.
'...from the earliest BBC apple computer to an eight track twin reel recorder. ', Nick Robinson BBC web site
Acorn User magazine regularly ran stories on the huge number of Beebs (and secretaries) required to document Benn's daily spin on politics although they attributed the machine to Acorn and this despite Redwood becoming a BBC property at one point.
At least Robinson got the number of reels on the tape machine correct.
The original phrasing used though implied it was eight track carts, not reel to reel on which the number of tracks would have been invisible to a journo of Mr Robinsons calibre. He would (probably) however have recognised the more common eight track due to their widespread use in radio studios where, with the tape being an endless loop, they were favoured for not needing to be rewound after every use. And I first encountered them professionally 35 years ago...
Oh dear, so wrong Vulch! Plenty of eight track reel to reel recorders, made for adding tracks at different muso sessions, also had 16 track tapes for the bigger users. One eight track machine I always lusted after was the Revox 8 Track Simul-Sync which was real Hi-Fi back in the day, also had three different tape speeds for how much quality/dynamic range one desired. Hi-tech stuff back in the 70s & 80s.
The yoof of today just don't know their history.
On the IT side cut my teeth on the old ICL System 4, J1700 opsys stuff with 800bpi 9 track tape decks. A Leo III with it's gently humming valves was also in that machine room. In the 90s the ICL S39 kit was by far the best big-iron mainframes on the market and VME the best most configurable opsys about.
ICL failed due to crap (if ethical) marketing. ICL's product launches were done locally and had a few drinks and sarnies afterwards while the competition's (nameless for legal reasons) were done in exotic places with free client travel, accommodation and entertainment (wink, wink, nudge, nudge).
He was a BIG Psion fan and early adopter. A friend of mine visited his home to offer training on the apps and development capabilities of the Psion 3a organiser. He was fascinated by technology (and gadgets) from basic dictatphone to solid state electronics. A good bloke. A justifiable national treasure - he's the only politician I have ever bought a ticket to go hear speak (on his hugely enjoyable and engaging tour that took in Wimbledon Theatre in 2008). RIP.
"If we can find money to kill people, you can find money to help people"
"Keeping people hopeless and pessimistic - see I think there are two ways in which people are controlled - first of all frighten people and secondly demoralise them."
"An educated, healthy and confident nation is harder to govern."
Tony Benn
Both Benn and Thatcher did more for computing in this country than Major, Blair and Brown ever did.
It's almost as if in the 1990s nobody thought computers needed to be programmed? why on earth did the focus move to office skills instead of learning the internals and how to write software?
Did art move from creating art to teaching children how to frame and hang it on the wall?
Did sports move from taking part in sports to teaching children how to score and referee sports?
Nope. ICT is what you get when technophobes or luddites (Blair) have an influence on technology.
Lived a long life, stuck to his convictions, one of the last true great politicians.
Not many left now, if any.
Not a fan of his politics but I can respect him for them.
Seen a few digs other here (not ElReg) and there, this is not time for that.
But look at the late politicians now gone recently Thatcher, & Benn, compared to todays pigmies of Cameron, Clegg & Millipedeband.
Let's not talk about what Benn got up to in the 70s and 80s, shall we?
He did better than most politicians, but it's worth remembering the saying that every political career ends in failure.
Clegg and Cameron I grant you, but we haven't yet seen what Miliband might do in office. Every politican is a pygmy till, owing to luck, talent or whatever, they do achieve something. But for WW2, Churchill would have been seen as someone who was briefly successful in WW1 and then failed.
He was certainly a very colourful character - the cold war produced several of those perhaps because the great idealogical differences in the world then generated people who could speak well and generate action albeit from something of a radical viewpoint, left or right. there are less "ites" in the world now - be they Thatcherite or Bennite and politics has become less spicy.
Benn was also a great parliamentarian and supporter of the role of parliament as the engine of democracy. When the incoming new labour government of 1997 transferred control of interest rates to the Bank of England in 1997, Benn reacted with fury. Not because he thought it was the wrong thing to do but because the new government, flushed with their landslide success, handed over the power without putting it to a vote in the commons. Would that we had more like him protecting democratic freedoms.
I think it's harsh to call the current crop of polititcians as pigmies. They are simply people of their time. Whereas in the past the debates were "shall it be black or white" the are now "which shade of grey". It's hard for them to stand out in such circumstances. And there have always been plenty of pygmies in the past.
He was a decent bloke who stuck to what he believed in instead of compromising his principles just to stay in power (are you listening, Nick?). He was always interesting to listen to, and unlike most politicians he learnt lessons from history.
In the late 70s, when he was energy minister, he wrote something along the lines of: because North Sea oil was coming on stream, whoever won the next election would remain in power for at least ten years.
How right he was. And where did all that oil money go?
T Benn : The arch-socialist who told us that Concorde was a GREAT idea because it conveyed a bunch of very rich people between tax-havens very rapidly. (8 Built)
Meanwhile Boeing delivered the 747 (1500 built).
And I still haven't forgiven him for rescuing the Meriden co-operative who were still learning to bolt exhaust pipes on straight and level while Honda were churning out CB750s.
I believe he was a 1 man "false flag" operation.
This post has been deleted by its author
The thing that killed any prospect of Concorde being a commercial success was the American ban on it flying at supersonic speeds in US air space. As a result the number of planes built was cut back, so the per-plane cost soared, etc. Its a shame there wasn't any competition, but the 747 was "good enough".
No doubt Europe will impose the same restriction should the US ever develop a supersonic airliner...
"The thing that killed any prospect of Concorde"
It was not one thing, but a combination of factors, most importantly:
(1) Oil cost post-1974, which made it expensive to run.
(2) Limited range, it could do London-NY and Paris-NY, but not the sort of range that would have made it a major success in the 80s such as Tokyo-SF
(3) The problems of supersonic flight over land. While the USA's stance did smack of national pride being upset, it turned out that no one would put up with the sonic boom over land, so key routes to make money had to be over water (not so bad, if it could have done Tokyo-SF non-stop).
(4) Noise levels. Concorde needed engine re-heat (aka afterburners) for take-off and that add massively to the noise (extra thrust proportional to exhaust velocity, noise to the 8th power!). When developed in the early 70s this was not so bad as other jets like the 707 were also noisy buggers, but by the 80s and onwards the move to high bypass engines for fuel efficiency also lead (and was driven by) much lower noise levels.
Still, it was the most beautiful airliner to date and I once had the privilege to fly on it. Not cheap, but my flight cost less than a similar first class flight I priced nearer the time.
RIP. My thoughts go out to Tony Benn's family, and I feel we have lost one of the few politicians worth listening to and a champion (abet not always best-advised) of technology.
I flew the Concorde, too, I was bumped up to it because of a technical emergency I had to attend to. My adjacent passenger was Lady Black - I still marvel at how pricey knitted dresses can cover large curvaceous lines without revealing what's underneath.
Still have my Concorde tag, securely attached to a leather briefcase with stainless wire - which has survived many attempts at theft.
Concorde was a great idea which kick-started the development of an entire Aerospace industry and the only competitor to Boeing and put us at the forefront of aircraft design and manufacture.
Of course the British didn't really follow up on the investment and so Fitton didn't become Toulouse.
Boeing also won a government-funded contract to build an American SST. Before it got cancelled they'd chewed up more money than was spent developing Concorde, and they'd got as far as a plywood mockup of the cockpit (more or less). At the time of cancellation Concorde had 74 orders lined up.
What a measure of how the world has changed that in an article on Tony Benn's sad passing an author can make the slip that suggests choice and competition were the end goal. No, the end goal of having a single service provider at that time was surely efficient use of resources, and perhaps a bit of 'national champion' thinking.
Given that the UK economy at the time was still largely exhausted from the second world war then efficient use of what resources the country had was a sensible goal. The nationalised industries would have worked very well if the people in them from top to bottom had all put their shoulders to the wheel as perhaps had happened in the war (when things were pretty much under a single set of controls). Unfortunately, human nature got the better of them - both bosses and workers.
"car workers, unions and management working together"
Hmmm.
Somehow the idea of management working seems to be an oxymoron.....the idea of management is that it manages, while Leylend management seemed content to manage to get in some mornings...mainly those after Wednesday.
I cannot forgive him for making labour totally unelectable between 1979 and 1992
The years of waste when Thatcher ruled supreme while people like the ultimate champange socialist ruined labour with contant infighting and squabbling over what the general public regarded as minor matters, eventually splitting the party into labour and the social democrats.
Yes we have a lot to thank Anthony wedgewood Benn for
Oh and disarming yourself of weapons while your enemy hangs onto theirs is the most effective way of suicide bar firing your own weapons at yourself.
Anthony Wedgwood Benn
Said "I am going to count up to ten
And then any civil servant who stands in the way
Of my Ministry of Technology had just better pray."
Said the Head of the Civil Service,
"Boys, no need to be nervous.
This Benn chap may think he has lots of ammo
But he's easily defeated with a well crafted memo."
Very droll, but in my lifetime only two politicians have stood up to the dead hand of the civil service. One was Tony Benn, the other was Clement Atlee, who was told by the head of the civil service "you can't do that" his response was very much to the point. "I was elected by the people to do a job, you are paid to advise me and nothing else. Should you disagree with that principle, then I accept your resignation now"
Much as there was to admire about his querulous side, for it did tend to make people think, his stated incomprehension about nuclear power is difficult to square. He maintained that during his time as Minister of Technology he never knew that British nuclear reactors were producing plutonium for the weapons programme.
There doesn't seems to be any alternative other than that he was either culpably ignorant or lying. Neither of these fits well with the principles he claimed to uphold.
Benn's successor at the Ministry of Technology was the subsequently infamous John Stonehouse(*). JS in his memoirs described how he had to sort out the awful mess that Benn had left.
(*)Stonehouse later faked his suicide on a Miami beach. Ordinary people were not concerned at the loss of a minor politician, but he owed big money to various people who did care, so he was found in Australia, brought back to Britain, and eventually jailed for fraud. His memoir book is a vast exercise in special pleading, but I did sympathise with him at that one section about Benn.
Primus Secundus Tertius:
John Stonehouse followed Roy Mason, who followed Edward Short, who followed Tony Benn, as postmaster general. If he really complains of Tony Benn's mess in his memoirs, I think consideration should be paid to what the 2 intermediaries were doing during their couple of years in office.
And you should probably be less credulous when reading political memoirs.
Did the UK need a computing industry giant unheard of outside the UK? Did it need the other enterprises Benn championed? Or was it just more outlay of taxpayer's money that would have been better spent in other ways? More admirable for his principles than his policies, but as many have said here, he's missed already.
Yay for them as well.
Of course the other thing that that govt was known for was cancelling the TSR2 in favor of a "UK only" F 111 (which never in fact turned up). That was more down to Dennis Healy however.
Bit like that "UK only" version of the F35 that the US has been promising.
But Benn did have actual principles.
Which puts him several kilometres ahead of most current politicians.
He would also be about the only PPE graduate who seems to have been worth a damm.
I would raise a glass to him.
Your comment about being the only PPE graduate worth a damn made me curious. Wikipedia, of course, has a list: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_University_of_Oxford_people_with_PPE_degrees
If I counted correctly, there are 41 current MPs on that list. It's quite an eye-opener.
he earned people's respect because he spoke his mind using simple language. He had integrity, too - how many of today's MPs can claim that?
And how many would surrender their inherited peerage, the first to do so, following the death of his brother, as Viscount Stansgate? However he was prevented from doing so until The Peerage Act 1963, which allowed renunciation of peerages, became law shortly after 1963 July 31 at 18.00H.
He was not only 'street smart' but also well learned both through university (Oxford) and life.
His wife predeceased his in 2000, I seem to remember, but his children are equally famous. In fact their election to the House of Commons made the Benn family one of the few to lay claim to three generations of MPs.
RIP, Tony, you earned it.
I always think that the fact that Hilary Benn was not of the same political hue was much to Tony Benns credit. He was always vehement in defence of his son taking his own political direction, and was resolutely proud nonetheless - better to learn from a father that prefers vigorous debate than 'my way or the highway'. I think he had that in common with all the political figures I've ever had time for; principled conviction, but above all a love of the debate of ideas.
This post has been deleted by its author