back to article The UNTOLD SUCCESS of Microsoft: Yes, it's Windows 7

Microsoft claims it has now sold more than 200 million Windows 8 licenses, in the first update to public sales claims it has offered since last May. Speaking at the Goldman Sachs Technology and Internet Conference in San Francisco on Thursday, Microsoft executive VP of marketing Tami Reller described the sales growth as " …

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  1. Thorne
    FAIL

    What the hell did they expect?

    When they forced a touch interface onto desktops without a touch interface.

    If the idiots had left the start bar alone and allowed desktops to default to the desktop mode, they would have never had this problem.

    If MS bothered to ask consumers this would have never happened.

    1. JDX Gold badge

      Re: What the hell did they expect?

      With 8.1 you barely have to use the "touch interface" if you don't want to. Laying out the start-menu as a tiled full-screen affair may not be to everyone's taste, but it IS a totally valid non-touch mechanism for the desktop - fiddling around inside nested menus in a quarter of your screen when you can see everything spread out using your whole screen. If anything, it's more like OSX and I don't remember people rampaging about how that is stupid without a touch-screen.

      How do the more popular Linux setups approach this? I didn't think they aped the start-menu, or do they? Don't they mostly let you view your programs in lists or tiled pages?

      1. ThomH

        Re: What the hell did they expect?

        For the record, I find OS X's Launchpad to be stupid without a touch screen. But it was added as an extra: nothing else was taken away. If anything OS X has become more accommodating over time to those of us that keep regular use applications directly on the dock and the /Applications folder over on the right for start-menu like access to everything else, as Apple has introduced the speech bubble style folder that makes a better show of most /Applications folders.

        1. Peter2 Silver badge

          Re: What the hell did they expect?

          We don't need to wipe the win8 install and install Win7; the vendors do that for us! Look in one of the junk mail catalogues that you get sent; nobody is pushing Win8.

          I would very much like to know how many of those Win8 licenses are pre downgraded to Win7.

          1. Avatar of They
            FAIL

            Re: What the hell did they expect?

            You are probably correct. My personal upgrade licence sits in a drawer after my three days of hell.

            My company has bought around 140 machines with win 8 preinstalled since its release and we scrub it for XP and now win7. Then we realised we can ask the OEM to ship with win 7 and the following dozens of PC's are win7. :)

            Of the 100 million I bet a very large % are nothing at all to do with actual end use, and merely 'shipped' licences.

      2. Grogan Silver badge

        Re: What the hell did they expect?

        Well... the problem is STILL that Microsoft makes it difficult to use "legacy software" (read, software that isn't dumbed down for the tiled, "Metro" environment and the Microsoft store). That "start menu" is still dysfunctional.

        Fuck that... it needs a shell replacement (e.g. ClassicShell) at the very least.

        In Linux distributions, at least you have choices on the desktop environments you can use, window managers and GUI behaviour.

        1. Greg J Preece

          Re: What the hell did they expect?

          Well... the problem is STILL that Microsoft makes it difficult to use "legacy software" (read, software that isn't dumbed down for the tiled, "Metro" environment and the Microsoft store). That "start menu" is still dysfunctional.

          I understand that some folk don't like Metro, but in my experience this claim simply isn't true. I can't think of a single item beyond Ext2Fsd that hasn't worked flawlessly when moving from Win7 to Win8, and even with the ext2 drivers I just had to run the installer in Windows 7 mode.

          1. keith_w

            Re: What the hell did they expect?

            WebEx does not work in IE 11 on W8.1, although it does work in both chrome and FF. Java does not work in the TIFKAM environment, although it does in IE in the desktop. We have several Surface Pros and Pro 2s here. People are giving up both their laptops and their Ipads with them.

          2. Grogan Silver badge

            Re: What the hell did they expect?

            I didn't say that programs didn't work, I said it made it more difficult to use them and that a shell replacement was needed to restore arbitrarily removed functionality.

        2. John P

          Re: What the hell did they expect?

          Desktop software is no harder to find or use in Windows 8 than it has been in any previous iteration of Windows. If anything, the fact that Windows 8's search is better than previous versions makes it easier to find applications, regardless of whether or not they are Metro apps.

          I never used search before 8 because I always found that I could find what I wanted quicker manually, that is no longer the case and for anything that is not pinned to my start screen, I almost exclusively use search to find it where as I used to just open an explorer window and go spelunking in program files.

          The whole Metro thing is open to debate, but the claim that Desktop apps are any harder to use than they have been previously is simply false.

      3. James O'Shea

        Re: What the hell did they expect?

        "If anything, it's more like OSX and I don't remember people rampaging about how that is stupid without a touch-screen."

        You're joking, right? I assume that you're talking about Launchpad...

        1 there were (and are) legions of people who hate, hate, HATE Launchpad and who delete it from their systems on sight. A quick look into any Mac-centric forum will show this; Apple's own fora have had several threads removed by the mods 'cause the hate was getting knee-deep. And the hate was _precisely_ the 'iOSification' of OS X.

        2 Launchpad is an application. It can be ignored. It can be removed. It is not the default. It does not replace the old interface. I have several Macs, running several different versions of OS X, including versions which have Launchpad (Lion, Mountain Lion, Mavericks) and I have never used Launchpad beyond a brief experiment with it when it first came out. I decided that it wasn't for me and I dropped it into the Trash. Problem gone.

        3 Anyone who thinks that Launchpad and MetroSexual are even vaguely alike has serious issues.

        Now, if you weren't talking about Launchpad, well... what in Christ Jesus' name _were_ you talking about, 'cause there ain't no bloody tiles roaming around in OS X!

      4. WatAWorld

        Re: What the hell did they expect?

        People are still complaining about Windows 8's touch interface when Windows 8.1 is out there without that touch interface.

        Try to keep up people.

        And how did Linux approach this? Linux's approach shows it doesn't matter if MS had performed as well as Linux, since Linux isn't taking over the desktop marketplace.

        1. Roland6 Silver badge

          Re: What the hell did they expect?

          >People are still complaining about Windows 8's touch interface when

          >Windows 8.1 is out there without that touch interface.

          >

          >Try to keep up people.

          Whilst that may be the case, the problem is that to Joe Public "Win 8" means Win 8.n. So to them, a PC displaying the 'modern' interface in PC World etc. is a Windows 8 machine, whereas one displaying Win 7 or carrying the Apple logo is perceived as being different. Given the teething problems with XP, suspect MS may have to release 8.2 which is effectively a complete rewrite or do a Vista and move on and launch 9 with a noticeably different UI to 8.

        2. Morten Bjoernsvik

          Re: What the hell did they expect?

          "And how did Linux approach this? Linux's approach shows it doesn't matter if MS had performed as well as Linux, since Linux isn't taking over the desktop marketplace."

          The challenge is that most people find their current desktop just as good and do not want to upgrade.

          This is what happens when software becomes mature. Then you switch to yearly licensing instead of a one time purchase.

      5. hplasm
        Linux

        Re: What the hell did they expect?

        How do the more popular Linux setups approach this?

        They let you choose what you want.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: What the hell did they expect?

          And that is one of the reason Linux don't go anywhere on the desktop - too many different GUIs to target and learn. Developers like some kind of standardization - it greatly help design and development...most users also like it, to switch on a PC and find a familiar environment, not something totally different. Extreme customization is good for just a little percentage of users.

          1. nematoad
            Facepalm

            Re: What the hell did they expect?

            "most users ... like to switch on a PC and find a familiar environment"

            That's probably why tablets are taking the marketplace by storm.

            Most users don't need or want a full featured PC to connect to Facebook or browse the internet. It's an appliance like a washing machine or vacuum cleaner.

            Trying to force a dumbed down tiled UI on people who know what they are doing and can sort things out for themselves was always a stupid idea.

            See also Unity on Ubuntu and Gnome 3.

            Wildly popular?

            I think not.

            1. bep

              Re: What the hell did they expect?

              I quite often use a full-featured PC to browse the internet. Meanwhile my partner did a work assignment yesterday on her iPad (with bluetooth keyboard and cover/stand). There is no single use case for a particular kind of device. That's where Microsoft has gone wrong. The software needs to be able to detect if it's connected to a touch screen, ditto a keyboard, and deliver a suitable experience for that hardware setup.They need to stop trying to guess how people might choose to use their devices.

          2. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: What the hell did they expect?

            No, that's not the reason. Your application will work on all desktop environments. The real reason is lack of pre-installations.

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: What the hell did they expect?

          spot on. I used ubuntu when I have the choice, and I really like unity (so shoot me!) however I also use terminal *a lot* and as a rule much prefer terminal to any of this 'windowing sh!t'. But the point remains, no railroading and you know, I get to choose what works best for me.

      6. Piro Silver badge

        Re: What the hell did they expect?

        I wish people would stop saying "Windows 8 is fine, you can totally avoid Metro".

        The ENTIRE point of Windows 8 is to push Metro and their app store.

        If you don't use that, you may as well be using Windows 7. Using Windows 8 gives Microsoft the wrong idea in stats. The idea that they pushed out a worthy update.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: The ENTIRE point ...

          For YOU maybe.

          For ME, the ENTIRE point is to boot faster and run leaner.

          Which Windows 8 does, without detracting from the Windows 7 desktop experience beyond a single click to get to it.

          1. Piro Silver badge

            Re: The ENTIRE point ...

            Boot faster? You don't have an SSD. Sorry.

            Run leaner? RAM is cheap these days.

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: The ENTIRE point ...

              I'm running it on a 2012 MacBook Air (no OSX at all) so, yes, I do use an SSD and it has reasonable RAM.

              That is, however, irrelevant as my comparison was between Windows 7 and 8 *on the same device*.

              I'm sorry I didn't point out I wasn't comparing Windows 7 on a 486 with Windows 8 on an ultrabook but I sort of presumed it would be pretty obvious.

            2. jelabarre59

              Re: The ENTIRE point ...

              > Run leaner? RAM is cheap these days.

              The glaring issue EVERYONE that trots out that tired excuse seems to miss is that every machine has limitations on how much memory it will support. And many times users will have already hit that limit before trying to upgrade. And as long as we continue to be mired in an economic depression, no one has the money for new kit either.

          2. croc

            Re: The ENTIRE point ...

            My win 7 PC boots from power off to ready-to-go in under 30 sec. If I wanted it any faster, I'd use 'hibernate', faster still - 'sleep' - instantaneous. Even faster than 'sleep', just shut off the monitor before going to 'sleep' myself. So boot speed is NOT the issue. 'Lean' is also not the issue for most modern PC's. Or most newer laptops, for that matter. So tell me again what Windows 8.x is supposed to do for my desktop PC? It sure doesn't strain my GPU, that's a fact...

            (OK, I know that deep down the OS is a wee bit more secure. However, I am not entirely convinced that the Win 8 version of UEFI does not have an NSA backdoor baked in. That concern is enough for me to stay away for the nonce.))

          3. jelabarre59

            Re: The ENTIRE point ...

            > For ME, the ENTIRE point is to boot faster and run leaner.

            > Which Windows 8 does,...

            Why, because Win8 crashes a lot, and you continuously have to boot it? <g>

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: What the hell did they expect?

          > The ENTIRE point of Windows 8 is to push Metro and their app store.

          > If you don't use that, you may as well be using Windows 7. Using Windows 8 gives Microsoft the

          > wrong idea in stats. The idea that they pushed out a worthy update.

          I'm sure I read they binned the start menu after analysing "telemetry" from Windows phoning home now and again - that automated customer feedback thing?

          So if same telemetry is still in use, they'll see no-one uses the Metro stuff anyway.

          1. MJI Silver badge

            Re: What the hell did they expect? - telemetry

            That is the call home to Microsoft EVERY techy turns off!

      7. Nigel 11

        Re: What the hell did they expect?

        Linux offers CHOICE!

        Personally, I use Gnome 2, Mate, or Cinnamon, which offer a conventional start menu. You add frequently-used apps to your task-bar or desktop. I find the menu paradigm perfect for locating one from the many programs that I use infrequently.

        But you don't have to be like me. You can install your window manager of choice, and select which window manager you want to use at login time.

        I'd have had no complaint with Windows 8 if it had come with an option when I logged in to see the familiar Windows 7 (or even better, XP) manager. But it doesn't, and I hate it.

      8. Ben Norris

        Re: What the hell did they expect?

        People learn where stuff is by repetition. The main problem with the start screen isn't that it is touch oriented but that it is dynamic

        1. pita

          Re: What the hell did they expect?

          Very very good point.

        2. pita

          Re: What the hell did they expect?

          The posting by Ben Norris, "People learn where stuff is by repetition. The main problem with the start screen isn't that it is touch oriented but that it is dynamic" is a very good point to make."

      9. Jess

        How do the more popular Linux setups approach this?

        Linux mint looks more like XP than Windows 7 does.

        An XP user would have as little trouble moving to it as they would to windows 7.

        (And far far less than to Windows 8)

        No help if you are tied into Windows only software though.

      10. Frank Rysanek

        Re: With 8.1 you barely have to use the "touch interface" if you don't want to

        > With 8.1 you barely have to use the "touch interface" if you don't want to

        Actually... a few weeks ago I've purchased an entry-level Acer notebook for my kid, with Windows 8 ex works. It was in an after-Xmas sale, and was quite a bargain. A haswell Celeron with 8 GB of RAM... I'm a PC techie, so I know exactly what I'm buying.

        Even before I bought that, I knew that I would try to massage Windows 8 (after an upgrade to 8.1) into looking like XP.

        The first thing I tried to solve was... get rid of Acer's recovery partitions (like 35 GB total) and repartition the drive to be ~100 GB for the system and the rest for user data. I prefer to handle system backup in my own way, using external storage - and I prefer being able to restore onto a clean drive from the backup. So it took me a while to build an image of WinPE on a USB thumb drive, as a platform for Ghost... from there it was a piece of cake to learn to rebuild the BCD on the EFI partition (typically hidden). Ghost conveniently only backed up the EFI and system partition, and ignored the ACER crud altogether :-)

        Not counting the learning process, it took me maybe 3 days almost net time to achieve my goal = to have lean and clean Win 8.1 with XP-ish look and feel. The steps were approximately:

        1) uninstall all Acer garbage (leaving only the necessary support for custom keys and the like)

        2) update Windows 8 with all available updates

        3) clean up other misc garbage, the most noteworthy of which was the WinSXS directory. I did this using DISM.EXE still in Windows 8, which was possibly a mistake. The "component install service" in the background (or watever it's called) tended to eat a whole CPU core doing nothing... but after several hours and like three reboots it was finally finished. I later found out that it probably had a bug in Win8 and was a breeze if done in Windows 8.1... BTW, I managed to reduce WinSXS from 13.8 GB down to 5.6 GB (in several steps)... and, the system backup size dropped from 12 TB down to 6 GB :-)

        4) upgrade to Windows 8.1. This also took surprisingly long. It felt like a full Windows reinstall. The installer asked for several reboots, and the percentage counter (ex-hourglass) actually wrapped around several times... it kept saying funny things like "finishing installation", "configuring your system", "registering components", "configuring user settings", "configuring some other stuff" (literally, no kidding!) but finally it was finished...

        5) more crapectomy (delete stuff left over from Win8 etc.)

        6) install Classic Shell, adjust window border padding, create a "god mode" folder (only to find out that it's actually pretty useless), install kLED as a soft CapsLock+NumLock indicator (the Acer NTB lacks CapsLock+NumLock LEDs), replace the ludicrous pre-logon wallpaper, get rid of some other user interface nonsense...

        Somewhere inbeteween I did a total of three backups: one almost ex works, another with a clean install of Windows 8.1 (after basic post-install cleanup), and one last backup of the fully customized install, just a snapshot of the system partition stored on the data partition (for a quick rollback if the kids mess up the system).

        It looks and even works (at a basic level) as Windows XP. Some aspects of the user inteface work slightly different - such as, the Windows now dock to screen edges. No problem there. Even when I install some software whose installer expects the old style start menu, the installer still creates its subfolders in the ClassicStartMenu (technically alien to Windows 8) - great job there.

        But: the control panels are still Windows 8 style = bloated and incomprehensible, if you're looking for something that was "right there" in Windows XP. The search tool is still absent from the explorer's context menus - you have to use the global search box in the upper end of the Win8 sidebar. The dialogs that you need to deal with when occasionally fiddling with file privileges are just as ugly as they ever have been (they weren't much nicer in XP before the UAC kicked in in Vista).

        I'm wondering if I should keep the Windows 8.1 start button, only to have that nifty admin menu on the right mouse button. The left button = direct access to the start screen (even with smaller icons) is little use to me.

        There's one last strange quirk, apparently down to the hyper-intelligent touchpad: upon a certain gesture, possibly by sweeping your finger straight across the touchpad horizontally, the Win8 sidebar jumps out and also the big floating date and time appears - and they just glare at you. This typically happens to me unintentionally - and whatever I was doing at the moment gets blocked away by this transparent Win8 decoration. It is disturbing - I have to switch my mental gears and get out of that Windows 8 shrinkwrap to get to work again... I hope it will be as easy as disabling all the intelligence in the touchpad control panel. For the moment I cannot do away with the Win8 sidebar entirely (even if this was possible) because I still need it now and then...

        Some of the control panels are metro-only - and THEY ARE A MESS! There's no "apply" button... it's disturbing to me that I cannot explicitly commit the changes I do, or roll back in a harmless way. Typically when I happen to launch some Metro panel by mistake, I immediately kill the ugly pointless beast using Alt+F4. Thanks god at least that still works.

        The new-generation start screen with mid-size icons is not a proper Start menu replacement. For one thing, the contents are not the same. Legacy software installs into the classic start menu, but its icons don't appear in the 8.1 start screen. And vice versa. The new start screen with small icons is better than the endless Metro chocolate bar of Windows 8, but still a piece of crap.

        I hope my trusty old Acer that I use daily at work (XP-based) survives until Windows 9 - by then I'll have a chance to decide for myself, whether Windows 9 is back on track in the right direction, or what my next step is. If this is everybody's mindset, it's not surprising at all that Windows 8 don't sell.

      11. dogsolitude_uk

        Re: What the hell did they expect?

        "How do the more popular Linux setups approach this? I didn't think they aped the start-menu, or do they? Don't they mostly let you view your programs in lists or tiled pages?"

        Linux gives you options and customisable desktops, so you can configure things how you like. Windows 8 offers no such thing (unless you count 'boot to desktop' and changing the colour scheme).

        For example, Linux Mint has a menu button very similar to the start menu in the Cinnamon and Mate desktops, but the thing is you can remove it, move it about or ignore it, all using out-of-the-box funtionality. You can even use someone else's third-party menu if you want.

        With Linux you have a wide choice of customisable desktop options, Gnome 3, KDE, Cinnamon, Mate and Unity are just a few of them.

    2. Daniel B.
      FAIL

      Re: What the hell did they expect?

      If MS bothered to ask consumers this would have never happened.

      Beta testers did tell MS that it was awful for desktops. Freakin' UI designers told MS the interface sucked donkey balls. The only thing they did was to disable the registry trick that allowed you to bring back the Start Menu and excised the Start Menu code from Win8. The results are obvious; Win8 ain't selling. Even those 200 million W8 licenses aren't a sure thing; there's a good chance those Win8 boxes were purchased but immediately wiped clean and had a fresh install of Win7 in its place. MS did that with Vista, giving "XP downgrade rights" just to fluff up Vista "sales" numbers. It's just doing it again with Win8.

      I find it funny that JDX thinks Win8 looks like OSX. Nope, it doesn't. There's no fullscreen tiled interface here, and the only iOS-ish thing would be the Launchpad. And that's optional, not mandatory like the Start Screen.

      1. revdjenk

        Re: What the hell did they expect?

        "... there's a good chance those Win8 boxes were purchased but immediately wiped clean and had a fresh install of Win7 in its place."

        Mine had a fresh new Linux Mint install, instead. I have been free from MS's we-know-what's-best-for-you since 2006.

      2. Wade Burchette

        Re: What the hell did they expect?

        "The results are obvious; Win8 ain't selling. Even those 200 million W8 licenses aren't a sure thing; there's a good chance those Win8 boxes were purchased but immediately wiped clean and had a fresh install of Win7 in its place."

        I bought a new Lenovo computer with Windows 7 Professional on it. When it arrived, I found out it was really a Windows 8 Pro downgrade because it included some Windows 8 DVD's and no Windows 7 product key sticker. I hate that Windows 8 does not always include a product key. How many other Windows 8 licenses were sold that were actually only used to downgrade to Windows 7? Furthermore, how many of those Windows 8 licenses were for desktop or laptop computers?

      3. BillG
        Meh

        Re: What the hell did they expect?

        If MS bothered to ask consumers this would have never happened

        When Bill Gates was in charge of development, Microsoft's marketing mantra was

        Release early. Release often. And listen to your customers.

        They seemed to have forgotten the last part.

    3. LarsG

      Figure fiddlers

      Statisticians can do anything with numbers.

      They keep on harping on about Chromebooks increasing sales by huge percentages, yet the over all figures show they only have a small single figure market share.

      It's great that a company could claim a 50% increase in market share in the last half of the financial year, but if they had only sold 2 items in the first half, a 50% increase is neither here nor there.

      No matter what they say about it, Win 8 is not as popular as they might like to think.

    4. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: What the hell did they expect?

      "When they forced a touch interface onto desktops without a touch interface"

      Thats the main problem, but another minor issue is that they've dragged the desktop GUI back to Win 95 levels of sophistication. Flat , dull graphics with no aero style see-through. Now I know a lot of people didn't like Aero but you always had the option to turn it off. Now its either have mid-90s style widgets or nothing with Win8 (yes I know you can download add-ons that bring it back but they're rarely as good and you always have the potential malware issue).

      I honestly get the feeling some interface director at MS had a beef with the previous generation team for whatever reason and decided to bin all the good stuff they did out of spite or because he thought his "vision" was the One True Way. Well its a way - off a cliff.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: What the hell did they expect?

        Because what UI style Google adopted? The UI style of this forum? And many other web libraries and framework also? It's a common problem with designers, they have "fashio waves"... then was flat, now it's all 3D, oooh, add some transparencies - oh well, now we need something new, why don't we do everything flat?

        It's like women fashion getting back to the '70s forty years after... and selling you that old stuff as the "new fashion".

        BTW, the flat UI works well on space contrained devices like phones - less visual clutter is better there IMHO. But on large desktop screens some hints about the mean of widgets are welcome, to be able to tell what is a button and what is an image is usually welcome...

        1. Roland6 Silver badge

          Re: What the hell did they expect?

          >But on large desktop screens some hints about the mean of widgets are welcome

          This is one of the big problems with all versions of Windows, is it's use of pixel counts to determine the scale of display objects and then only provide very limited capabilities for a user to adjust these settings to take account of the actual physical dimensions of a display.

          Obviously, part of the problem is the data provided by the display (via the VESA standard interface) to Windows, but it does seem odd that MS either haven't pushed VESA to include relevant information in their standard, nor have they they given the user the option to use say a 1920x1080 display but specify they want Windows to scale stuff as if the display is a lower resolution such as 854x450 ie. a user gets to see a WVGA display, but with the sharpness etc. that the higher resolution display gives.

          1. jelabarre59

            Re: What the hell did they expect?

            > but it does seem odd that MS either haven't pushed VESA to include relevant information

            > in their standard, nor have they they given the user the option to use say a 1920x1080

            > display but specify they want Windows to scale stuff as if the display is a lower resolution

            > such as 854x450

            Especially since RadioShack/Tandy managed to do it with DeskMate3; as I remember it, the GUI/desktop was mapped to a large workspace, and then rendered down to whatever your display handled. If RadioShack could do it, why couldn't MS?

      2. Jess

        that they've dragged the desktop GUI back to Win 95 levels of sophistication.

        Windows 95 has a somewhat better UI than windows 8 on a desktop machine.

        I think Windows 3.1 is a fairer comparison.

        1. N2

          Re: that they've dragged the desktop GUI back to Win 95 levels of sophistication.

          Hi

          Upvoted, but I for one would much prefer to use Windows 3.0 or 3.1

          n

      3. Bilious
        Happy

        Re: What the hell did they expect?

        You might change your mind if you bought a netbook with touchscreen and Win8.1. I did (I needed a 32-bit system).

        Throw out all the adware and plug in a mouse and it's Win7. The touchscreen is much nicer for scrolling and navigating.

        W 8.1 gives me the best from the two worlds.

      4. jelabarre59

        Re: What the hell did they expect?

        > but another minor issue is that they've dragged the desktop GUI back to

        > Win 95 levels of sophistication. Flat , dull graphics with no aero style see-through.

        Actually, with WinXP and up, I would usually disable all theming (as in, even disable the "Themes" service) and go back to a Win2000 look. You can't even do *that* in Win8.x. So W8.x is fugly no matter what you do.

      5. Daniel B.
        Boffin

        Win95 levels of sophistication?

        they've dragged the desktop GUI back to Win 95 levels of sophistication.

        I'd say you went too far into yesterday's future. The Start Screen is basically a revival of the awful Program Manager UI. It's even been commented by TIFKAM detractors, and they're probably right on the spot. App-centric UI makes sense in mobile devices but it never made sense in PCs. The whole Win95 UI revamp copied System 7's (and earlier) approach where files were the main thing on UI navigation, and it was one of the most liked changes in Windows.

        And now they backtracked on that.

        As many others have mentioned already, the optional Launchpad app which did attempt something similar to what Metro does (stick a mobile UI on a PC OS) is probably the one app that is either unused or hated by most OSX users. Noticeable by the fact that most OSX users are probably iOS users as well, so it isn't that they don't like that UI at all, they like it as long as it keeps to their mobile devices. This is where MS failed: their TIFKAM interface was loved by WinPhone 7 users when they put that on their new revamped WinPho OS. Then they force-fed it to Windows 8 … which has now turned it from "nice mobile UI" to "that fugly thing on new PCs".

    5. Glostermeteor

      Re: What the hell did they expect?

      The main issue I have with Windows 8 is the flipping between desktop and tile mode. It would make much more sense to be able to switch on and off tile and desktop mode (i.e. if you are working on a tablet have it so everything lives in tiles vs if you are working on a desktop PC, switching off tiles and just living in desktop). On the tablet devices all the icons and text on the desktop are far too small so the tile interface makes sense (My mother who has bad eyesight refused to buy a Surface when she realised how small the text on the desktop looked), whereas the tile interface just gets in the way on a PC.The current system is just a mish mash that does not work very well, Microsoft should give users the option of which UI they want, and give you a setting to live in one or the other rather than forcing both on you at once.

  2. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    The end justifies the means?

    so they think

  3. Vociferous

    If you got a computer you don't buy Windows 8.

    If you get a pad you don't get one with Windows 8. Why would you?

    The only ones to get saddled with Windows 8 are people who buy new computers and dont have the wherewithal to ask for it to be installed with Windows 7 instead. I pity those people.

    1. JDX Gold badge

      Re: If you got a computer you don't buy Windows 8.

      >>If you get a pad you don't get one with Windows 8. Why would you?

      Because you use it for work, not just for Netflix, email and web-browsing. Just make sure it's not the RT version!

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: If you got a computer you don't buy Windows 8.

        Yesterday an iPad air owner was surprised while in a meeting I was taking notes using my Wacom Stylus Feel Carbon (he was writing on paper, his large tipped "pen" was not very good for on-screen writing...), and asked me what tablet I was using - "it's a Surface 2 Pro" :)

        He also asked me a copy of some of my sketches - and when I got an USB disk, plugged it into the USB port and gave him a PDF copy he was even more surprised... (I couldn't tranfer it via WiFi only because WiFi here is forbidden for security reasons...)

        Windows 8.1 works well on a tablet like that. But I have to admit that my new i7 Extreme desktop has been installed using my Windows 7 Ultimate license, albeit I could like some of the kernel improvements of 8 - but I can't really stand that interface on my 2560x1440 27" monitor, where I rarely use full-screen applications (only Lightroom is usually used full-screen...)

        1. Roland6 Silver badge
          Happy

          Re: If you got a computer you don't buy Windows 8.

          >Yesterday an iPad air owner was surprised while in a meeting I was taking notes using my Wacom Stylus Feel Carbon (he was writing on paper, his large tipped "pen" was not very good for on-screen writing...)

          And you carefully omitted to tell them that Wacom now do a Stylus that is compatible with the iPad air (bluetooth connected) which would allow them to take notes...

          1. mmeier

            Re: If you got a computer you don't buy Windows 8.

            In certain applications that support the pen and without OS support for Handwriting recognition etc.. As opposed to Windows (since XP) and the Samsung Version of Android for the Note series where it works everywhere, has an OS internal support for HWR and a ton of support software, some part of the basic system.

            Oh and it needs a battery unlike the S/P2s WACOM pen.

          2. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: If you got a computer you don't buy Windows 8.

            Sorry, but the iPad has no Wacom digitizer (Samsung Galaxy has one). Sure, there are "pens" for iPads, but they just work like your finger nothing more. A pressure-sentitive digitizer is far more precise, and has more features - i.e you can turn it upside down and use the other end like an eraser, and also can have buttons on it. Try it with an iPad...

            1. mmeier

              Re: If you got a computer you don't buy Windows 8.

              (Almost) right on the digitizer (The Note series has a Wacom) but according to Wacom:

              http://www.wacom.com/en/gb/creative/intuos-creative-stylus

              there is a pressure sensitive stylus out.

              1. Anonymous Coward
                Anonymous Coward

                Re: If you got a computer you don't buy Windows 8.

                Check the nib size.... and the digitizer is supported at the OS level and doesn't need power....

        2. This post has been deleted by its author

      2. Trevor_Pott Gold badge

        Re: If you got a computer you don't buy Windows 8.

        ">>If you get a pad you don't get one with Windows 8. Why would you?

        Because you use it for work, not just for Netflix, email and web-browsing. Just make sure it's not the RT version!"

        Oh, yeah, because "work" apps are optimized for being pawed at like primitives. Not. If I'm lucky, they're web apps. in which case any old tablet will do. If they are modern enough to be touch-optimized, they're coded for iOS (and mayyyyyyybe Android), not Windows.

        If you use a tablet for work use you're using an iPad. If you are using a tablet for home use it's probably Android. There's no room there for Windows. The only thing it offers is the ability to run legacy Win32 apps that aren't touch optimized in the first place.

        That's what RDP is for.

        1. mmeier

          Re: If you got a computer you don't buy Windows 8.

          Ah the old problem of Trolls being to slow witted to use a stylus/pen. That's why they can not use standard software on a tablet pc.

          1. Trevor_Pott Gold badge

            Re: If you got a computer you don't buy Windows 8.

            I think, senor douchepopsicle, that it has more to do with a stylus being a miserable thing to use whilst up a 10m ladder, on a boat, at a crowded event and so forth. They get lost easily. Even if strapped to the unit, they are far harder to use than touch screens.

            We're not talking about doodling while you're sitting at some sprog's recital, pretending to care. We're talking about usage in the field. There's a reason pre-iPad tablets were niche, and why iPad's are exploding in business usage today.

            I happen to rather adore my Fujitsu P1510d. I use a Galaxy Note 2 for my phone. Both are great device, but they - like a Microsoft Surface - aren't fit for the purposes required by my clients for computing in the field.

            Microsoft is legacy. Deal with it, and move on. There's more important stuff in life. It's just a company. Someone else's company. Who cares?

            1. mmeier

              Re: If you got a computer you don't buy Windows 8.

              At least both systems you refer to are equally old when it comes to software quality. The Note is equal to 2005 Windows XP Tablet edition.

              Otherwise: Thanks again for showing what happens when a "Journalist" gets a fanatical bend (Anti Win8 in your case). Bad examples are always needed

              1. Trevor_Pott Gold badge

                Re: If you got a computer you don't buy Windows 8.

                I specifically mentioned the Surface. You are also a a complete idiot if you assume my P1510d is original spec. It runs Windows 7 (just fine, thanks) and has been upgraded with SSD, additional RAM and all the goodies.

                Also: simply dismissing the Note 2 as "equal to 2005 Windows Tablet Edition" as a bare assertion with nothing to back it up doesn't win you any points either. You're a troll. A bad one, an ill informed one and one with a brand loyalty that borders on a psychiatric condition. Have fun with that. I prefer to spend my emotion on human beings, not corporations

                Contrary to your completely misinformed opinion, I am not fanatically anti-Win 8. It is a technology. It is neither positive nor negative. I am increasingly anti-Microsoft, though that is a different story and has to do with the people who hold decision-making power.

                Windows 8 has it's uses and it's niches where it is the best technology. I believe those are ones where it is either serving in a headless fashion or had the UI completely torn out and replaces (as in, say, a Kiosk.) The underlying bits of the OS are grand - see Server 2012 R2 - but the UI is of such poor quality that it serves best in the kind of places where Linux was doing well 15 years ago.

                Out of sight and out of mind.

                Thanks for playing, though. You have yourself a super day.

                1. This post has been deleted by its author

                  1. Trevor_Pott Gold badge

                    Re: If you got a computer you don't buy Windows 8.

                    You have the ability to purchase something. Congratulations. I don't accept your analysis of the Note 2 as I am pretty much convinced that you're about as bright as a rotted turnip and it doesn't line up at all with my own analysis of the things. If you were banging on speicfically about stylus support, you're about right, but not when it comes to the tablet as a whole.

                    Interesting things happen when you own 60%+ of the endpoint market. Software gets written for you. XP tablet edition never had that. There was a gigantic pile of stuff made for desktops, but it was all really ass on tablets. Very little was actually properly made for XP tablets, whereas the ecosystem around the Note 2 is orders of magnitude better.

                    On the flip side, XP Tablet has way better hardware support. These devices aren't even in the same league. You could make an XP tablet run damned near any peripheral on earth and there would be drivers for it.

                    Discounting standard bluetooth headset/speaker tat, there is roughly the square root of fuck-all available for the Note 2. A few widgets that pop into the headset port to run credit cards, some things that do neat bits with the NFC...but that's about it.

                    So no, Widget A and Widget B are not directly comparable in any way, excepting that they both supported a niche input modality: the stylus. In every other way they're different.

                    Additionally If you think for a second I am impressed that you can name 10 different OSes, I'm not. If i weren't convinced that it would be an abject waste of 1s and 0s, I might be interested to hear how you divvy them up; most of the differentiation exists in the embedded market. Even there, there exists a lot of "common lineage" where divergence between "families" is blurry. How you call it depends on if you approach it from the POV of an administrator or a Dev.

                    Even I've written for 7 different families of OS, and I have never considered myself a developer. So someone who self-identifies as a developer to have written for 10 OS families just doesn't impress me.

                    As for your claim to a lack of brand loyalty: put simply, I don't believe you. Your commenting history has you tear-assing around with a demonstrable hate on for open source and a boner the size of 2 Vesta for proprietary anything. Rarely with anything to back it up, just assertions of superiority and lots of false sterotypes.

                    You very much so do attach your personal sense of self worth to the companies that crank out he software you self-identify with and you are easily provoked into going on the (usually personal) attack against anyone who likes what you don't like or doesn't like what you do. If that isn't brand loyalty then it is indicative of a fundamental philosophical hatred for things open source (or perhaps just the GPL). Either way, it appears to blind you from being able to consider these topics rationally.

                    You enjoy trolling people. This much is pretty obvious. But you're a terrible troll. You yourself are too easily provoked.

                    One thing every journalist - and every troll - needs is self-awareness. If you are going to provoke people - for fun or as a profession - then you need to be aware of your own prejudices, foibles, biases and philosophical beliefs. You need to be aware how they will affect your judgement and how they can be used against you.

                    Once you have that level of understanding about yourself you not only become much harder to provoke, but you (hopefully) are able to look at a situation and ask "if this my personal prejudice/bias/philosophy that is controlling my judgement, or am I making a rational call where all steps of logic can be laid out back to primary assumptions?"

                    While that's all interesting, what I really find amusing is that someone who has so very closely tied their emotional self-worth to proprietary, commercial offerings so ardently defends platforms the market has roundly rejected. As though through sheer force of will you can alter reality.

                    What I don't understand is why you care. I'm not sure I'll ever understand. It's just tech, and they're just companies. If it works, use it. It it doesn't throw it the fuck away.

                    I don't buy your line "So I am anti low quality / difficult to integrate with the customers setup, that's all." That's bullshit. Linux, for example, isn't low quality. It hasn't been difficult to integrate for ages. It's not a panacea, but it hasn't been hard to use for quite some time. Yet you go after it like a dog after a bone.

                    No sir, I believe you have a blind spot about open source that biases your judgement in the technical sphere as much as my belief in equality of outcome biases my judgement in the political and economic sphere. The difference is that I am entirely aware of my biases and prejudices. You don't seem to be of yours.

                    1. Trevor_Pott Gold badge

                      Re: If you got a computer you don't buy Windows 8.

                      "Running Win7 on a Pentium-M with a 1024x600 screen is "interesting" no matter what SSD and memory you cram in there. The screen size is also "really useful" at 8.9''"

                      For the record, the P1510D runs Windows 7 quite well, thank you very much. The only thing that ever held it back was the shitty rust drive it shipped with. 2GB of RAM is enough to make it a perfectly acceptable companion for the kind of mono-tasking a tablet is good for.

                      Metro is the same damned thing - one app at a time - just with more pixels. At 8.9" I don't need "more pixels" for something I'm holding that far from my face. It's got more than enough horsepower to do the jobs asked of it...or for that matter most of the jobs that most people ask of endpoints, period.

                      If you've been at this for as long as you say, and you are so very old and so very wise then I'd have hoped the "newer is better" and "ooh look, shiny toy" parts would have worn off long ago.

                      I still use a 386 notebook for writing. It does the job asked of it. What matters is not the technology, nor the age. What matters is fitness for purpose. You can run the fucking Hubble telescope off of a 486 SX. You don't need a quad core i7 to scan a barcode and hit submit.

                      1. WP7Mango

                        Re: If you got a computer you don't buy Windows 8.

                        Metro is NOT one app at a time. It allows you to view multiple apps side by side. The number you can view depends on the screen resolution. Normally you can view 2 or 3 apps side by side, but more is possible.

                        Also, Metro supports multiple monitors, so you can have 2 or 3 apps on one monitor, 2 or 3 apps on the second monitor, 2 or 3 apps on the third monitor, and have the desktop on a separate monitor too.

                        1. Trevor_Pott Gold badge

                          Re: If you got a computer you don't buy Windows 8.

                          Oh, you're right, you can use a uselessly broken "side-by-side" view to have two apps on the screen at the same time. Holy fuck. That's mind blowing. I mean, it's not like I can do that on my Samsung Android phone! [1]

                          How many years, do you think, before they reinnovate a paradigm shift to alter the productivity landscape by giving you the ability to stack applications vertically and horizontally? How many more years before you can dynamically resize these applications in both dimensions? Maybe you could even layer then, or have as many on the screen as you need at one time?

                          What would that even look like?!?.

                          It wounds fantastical. It sounds revolutionary. It sounds like magic.

                          [1]Yes, I can. Stock. I can even get a windows UI if I bother to put a half a bent pittance of effort into it. Wowee. That shitty open source Android cancer can match the wonders of Metro! Flee! Flee for your goddamned lives, the world is ending OH NOES!.

                2. mmeier

                  Re: If you got a computer you don't buy Windows 8.

                  Actually I own a Note 2 (only stylus equiped smartphone on the market back then) so I CAN compare the think to Windows. And it is at best WinXP level when it comes to HWR and support software.

                  As for the Lifebook: Running Win7 on a Pentium-M with a 1024x600 screen is "interesting" no matter what SSD and memory you cram in there. The screen size is also "really useful" at 8.9''

                  As for the rest - I have been earning my money with IT for almost three decades now, likely used more OS than most people know and always worked fine with "Use what the customer pays for and if a choice what fullfils the criteria best". Linux never did make the grade. Granted, I always worked for customers that could afford good hardware and software so servers ended up on Solaris(Sparc and x86)/HP-UX/AIX and even Windows for some jobs not to mention some specialist stuff (Mostly Solaris/x86 in the last years). Clients includes OS/2, Windows and even Unix boxes under X (Interactive) and again some very exotic units.

                  So I am anti low quality / difficult to integrate with the customers setup, that's all.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: If you got a computer you don't buy Windows 8.

      I'm sure I'll get down-voted for simply stating a fact, but here goes: yesterday I *bought* a DVD of Windows 8.1 because, despite all the MS hate, I *personally* like it a lot and think it worth the money.

    3. Tree

      Re: If you got a computer you don't buy Windows HATE.

      Main reason I hate it is that I cannot find anything. Second reason is that it is harmful to connect to Microsoft and let them steal your private information. Third is that I prefer to disconnect from the internet when I don't need it. This causes tiles to bounce around again, just when I remember where they are. Cannot find the one I need after it moves.

      It needs Microsoft Update settings so that unneeded stuff like the !BINGBAR! are not foisted upon us. XP sp3 is much better.

  4. Woger

    New Wheeze

    I've got a new wheeze for Microsoft: why don't they sell an upgrade from Windows XP without support, to Windows XP with support. They'd sell more copies than Windows 8.

    Finally...

    Imagine WinXP open-sourced, It's easy if you try, No Win8 below us, Above us only sky, Imagine all the people living for today.

    You, you may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one, I hope some day you'll join us. And the world will be as one.

    Sorry John.

    1. WatAWorld

      Re: New Wheeze

      I believe the problem is that XP is simply patched too much.

      But they have made XP support available at an extra cost as you suggest. Problem is it is thousands of dollars.

      I find it hard to believe that people can't figure out Windows 7. You go online, you order Windows 7 from Amazon, and you install it.

      And if your computer is 7 years old you might as well junk it anyways since it will be suffering a hardware failure sometime soon.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: New Wheeze

        >> And if your computer is 7 years old you might as well junk it anyways since it will be suffering a hardware failure sometime soon.

        wtf ? really ? Take a fully functional piece of hardware and junk it because one day it *might* break ? christ !

        How about install linux ? My main server is a P4 with 1 gigger-byte and it's fantastic ! Granted you wont have much luck with 3d games on it but that is a seriously mucked up (I'm being polite) statement to make.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: New Wheeze

          If your server breaks and every hour of stop costs you a lot, yes, you'll replace old hardware with new one. Maybe you'll move the old hardware to non-critical tasks where if it breaks is just a little issue, but only a fool will keep his business running on hardware (and software) past its expected lifetime.

          Of course if you're running your server in your basement to watch porn from your bedroom, well, any junk piece of hardware will do.

        2. mmeier

          Re: New Wheeze

          A P4 processor? That where the things where they recommended a 16A fuse as a minimum requirement for a single core and a "hardwired to the next nuclear plant" for the 900 series dual cores IIRC.

          For a home server there are more modern, less power hungry systems available in the 300€ (new) range. And if you need serious computational power a core-i based system will deliver at less power consumption.

      2. Roland6 Silver badge

        Re: New Wheeze

        "I believe the problem is that XP is simply patched too much."

        Well that makes me laugh only a fool or someone who hasn't been around for long would think that! Whilst there are limits to the 4+32-bit Intel architecture on which XP is based and limitations due to design decisions made, accumulated patches is unlikely to be a reason for discontinuing XP.

        "I find it hard to believe that people can't figure out Windows 7. You go online, you order Windows 7 from Amazon, and you install it."

        I think you'll find that people know that, it's just that they probably don't see the point in making the effort (see below).

        "And if your computer is 7 years old you might as well junk it anyways since it will be suffering a hardware failure sometime soon."

        I suspect that many are working on this basis, and will move to a new OS when they purchase a new PC; which is what they did in the past.

      3. Richard Plinston

        Re: New Wheeze

        > You go online, you order Windows 7 from Amazon, and you install it.

        People don't have a computer to run the OS. They run applications. The OS is something that is used to start the application and then should keep out of the way of getting the work done. XP does that, Vista did not. Win7 more or less, Win8 not at all.

        Your instruction is trivial and naive. Some hardware running XP may not be supported by Win7, drivers may not be available for the older devices. After installing Win7 they would have to re-install all their applications. Some may not run, some may have lost the installation disks or codes. The configuration and settings made over the years may be forgotten and thus difficult to reproduce.

        There is a significant risk of:

        * incurring large costs including new computer, upgrading applications

        * spending large amounts of time learning new applications

        * losing all ability to run anything at all.

        1. jelabarre59

          Re: New Wheeze

          > Your instruction is trivial and naive. Some hardware running XP may not be supported by Win7,

          Actually, the problem there is a lot of hardware supported by Win7 which absolutely will NOT run Win8. So without a legitimate *and* affordable source fro Win7, those users are either stuck with the risks of XP after April 2014, or have to move to Linux (which, BTW, is always the better choice anyway).

          1. mmeier

            Re: New Wheeze

            How many hardware is that and how old is that hardware? Driver model in 8 is the same as in 7 so any hardware that has a Win7 driver will work.So "a lot" is IMHO quite unlikely and "some older stuff the manufacturer does not care about" more the truth

            Hardware that still uses a XP driver will die. That was well known for some time and the XP driver model was "for backward compatibility only" fpr quite some time now. So that is a problem of the hardware manufacturer not that of Windows.

            And the chance of getting hardware to run under Win8 to it's full capacity is A LOT bigger than getting it to run at full capacity under that funny DIY OS some fanatics try to force on users.

            OBTW: Good news from Munich - LiMux is "under consideration for replacement"

            1. Richard Plinston

              Re: New Wheeze

              > So that is a problem of the hardware manufacturer

              It is a problem for the owner of the device. One they solve by staying with XP.

              > some fanatics try to force on users.

              Strange that you say that when you come across as if you were a fanatic would would be happy to see Windows 7/8 forced on users.

              > LiMux is "under consideration for replacement"

              Only by an upgrade to a newer version of Linux.

            2. Richard Plinston

              Re: New Wheeze

              > And the chance of getting hardware to run under Win8 to it's full capacity

              I am sure that Windows does run its hardware at full capacity most of the time. But much of it is in stuff that is not directly useful to the users: anti-virus, updates, reboots, shuffling files and directories, ...

      4. jelabarre59

        Re: New Wheeze

        > I find it hard to believe that people can't figure out Windows 7. You go online,

        > you order Windows 7 from Amazon, and you install it.

        And then sortly afterwards you find it's an illegal copy, or a 10-user license that the seller has sold 200 times. Or, if you happen to find an actually legitimate copy, you've spent $200 on the Super-Mega-Ultimate-Premium-Pro version of Win7, because even when Win7 was legally available, MS didn't believe in selling a simple, basic version.

        The ideal situation would be for ReactOS to be about 10-12 years further along in their development, but unfortunately *that* project has turned into a hopeless cause.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: New Wheeze

      You may not understand, that under the hood, XP is now really obsolete. It was designed and implemented for single CPU single core 32 bit PCs with less than 1GB of RAM - and when SSD disks didn't exist. XP 64 bit never worked well - and had a lot of device drivers missing.

      Are you going to use your latest i7 64 bit six cores, 16GB+ of RAM and SSD disk with a kernel that isn't designed to handle that properly (and if it is 32 bit it can't handle more than 4GB of RAM)? Without support for latest GPUs capabilities? There are a lot of improvements yo can't see in the user interface in Windows 7 and 8 kernels (read "Windows Internals", if you're interested). Please look beyond the UI widgets - those are just a little part of what an OS is.

      Moreover as long as XP is around, most developers may be forced to write XP compatible applications, without being able to target newer improved features available in later OSes.

      And if you believe MS will ever open source Windows code, well, you have to sleep and dream for a long time...

      1. Nigel 11

        Re: New Wheeze

        You may not understand, that under the hood, XP is now really obsolete

        So what?

        the Linux kernel that first supported XFCE was obsolete very many years ago. (Many would say the same of XFCE). Buf if XFCE floats your boat, you can still run it atop the latest kernel. Why couldn't Microsoft let us run the XP user interface atop a windows 8.1 kernel?

        Could it be that their programmers are so crap they've got no proper software modularity and the GUI is all tangled up with the kernel and with the applications? Or is it to railroad as many folks as possible into giving as much money as possible to Microsoft? Or do they just enjoy playing god (of the capricious variety from the Greek pantheon)?

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: New Wheeze

          Because they have no interest in doing so? But the start menu (which is the bifggest failure), is the UI so different in 8? Is so different in 7? Yes, Windows unlike Linux is not just a "kernel" and a bunch of external libraries built atop it like X and desktop managers from different suppliers - exactly like OSX relies on its Cocoa API and UI (and even Apple ditched Carbon for Cocoa). Because Microsoft sells also applications, and not only a kernel, it has good reasons to drive the user interface implementation and design as well. Believe me, if Torvalds was selling Office applications, he would have good reason too to force his own UI on Linux.

          You can change the Windows UI if you like (as you can do switching themes), and replace the shell if you like - because Windows UI is decoupled from the kernel enough - but of course most applications are designed to work with the standard GUI, not with different ones (like in Linux you have to deploy KDE, Gnome or other libraries supports for applications using them), and may not work well nor look good if the GUI is changed too much - look at mobes which have even stricter rules about how designing and implementing an UI...

          I'm sure Windows 9 will get back a desktop UI better designed for desktop than 8 was - but it won't be the XP one - fashion changes and even MS has to follow them - otherwise Linux guys keep on saying MS doesn't innovate and just sells old code... I don't like the new flat look too much too - but that's what everyone is adopting (Google....), that's what happens when you have web graphic designers work on you UI - but I didn't like the XP UI too, and often used a different theme to shrink the windows title bars and other elements (Zune theme, despite its name, was a nice black simpler UI one).

          But what is the real reason people don't want to abandon a ten year old OS like XP which lacks support for modern hardware? Because it is easier to crack? Because it is easier to find cracked games and applications for it? Is the interface really an excuse for something else?

          1. jelabarre59

            Re: New Wheeze

            > You can change the Windows UI if you like

            Yes, I remember how nice it was in the Win3.x days when you *could* get entire desktop shell replacements (like Norton Desktop fro Windows). The present-day equivalents don't have *anywhere* near the same functionality, and usually just replace one specific function (start menu, file manager, etc), rather than acting as a full system shell.

            1. Roland6 Silver badge

              Re: New Wheeze

              >in the Win3.x days when you *could* get entire desktop shell replacements

              Also HP NewWave, an object-oriented user interface.

              Yes Presentation Manager was one of the major differences between Win 3 and Win9x, with it going from effectively a separate 'application' to becoming an integral part of the OS, so effectively killing all the third-party replacements.

              Interestingly, MS have never really explored the object-orientated UI with Windows. Any one aware of an OOUI for Linux?

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: New Wheeze

        It's funny - if MS doesn't improve software it is blamed for it, if it does improve it is blamed because of it.

        Anyway downvoters here show the deep knowledge of OSes they have. SMP and multicore support, process and task schedulers, physical memory management and addressing, disk and file system management, new technologies and protocols are of course topics they don't know anything about - they just look at the shell UI widgets.

        Hardware is evolving, and software, especiall OSes, has to evolve with it. Could you retrofit endlessy an OS based on old code? Does Linux distro support old releases on old kernels? Does Apple still support OS9?

        Try install a newer operating system, maybe you'll discover your PC has more than 4GB or RAM... unless it is also as old as XP.

      3. Fuzz

        Re: New Wheeze

        " It was designed and implemented for single CPU single core 32 bit PCs with less than 1GB of RAM"

        XP worked fine with multi-core CPUs. The NT kernel had always been designed to support multiple CPUs. The 64bit criticism is more valid, XP 64bit is actually fine, it's based on Server 2003 (OS version 5.2) and server 2003 64bit is a decent OS. The problem as you've mentioned is drivers, hardly anyone published drivers for 64bit XP.

        I'm personally fine with using Windows 8 on my home PCs. I like how quickly it starts up and I like the changes made to the desktop UI, particularly around dual monitor support. However anyone that claims the start screen is OK is either working for Microsoft or only has 5 programs installed. It's fine if you can remember the name of the program, you just hit windows and type same as you do on 7. When you have no idea about the name and all you can remember is which sub folder of the menu it's supposed to come under, you are in trouble also using the whole screen isn't a good thing when a menu is spread over the entire screen it takes longer to move your mouse from one side to the other.

        All in all Microsoft have kind of ruined Windows 8 by reputation. They've fixed it up as best they could in 8.1 now they need to draw a line under it and get Windows 9 out

        1. mmeier

          Re: New Wheeze

          @Fuzz:

          Installed programs are

          MS Office (Excel, Word, OneNote, PPoint, Outlook)

          Eclipse IDE

          Firefox, Chrome and IE

          UML Tool

          Notepad++

          Various small tools (GIT, Zip, Wintail, Terminal, FTP,... say 10-15)

          GIMP

          TOMCAT and Glassfish

          ORACLE DB (local) and maintenance stuff

          Around 30+ "regular use" tools. All fit nicely on the Modern start screen. Alternatively I could pin them on the desktop or taskbar like in Win7. Works fine on the "desktop" (Actually a convertible in a dock + 2 attached monitors) and on the tablet (same convertible)

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: New Wheeze

          Just up to a point. Processor architecture changes, and technology improves too. SMP support in older versions of Windows are less "polished" than those in later ones. There are internal changes, optimizations, new features (i.e. new synchronization primitives) that are not available in XP. And supporting multiple cores is not exactly alike supporting multipe CPUs, because they share caches, memory bus, etc, and require a slightly different approach.

          Also new CPUs may offer new ways to support and improve OS features - but of course you can't adopt them in older code easily - especially if you don't want to break compatibility with older hardware.

          Same is true for memory management, the availability of larger and larger address spaces forced to rethink how to manage them. SSDs can't be treated like plain rotating disks or their life gets shorter - the OS has to be aware of their needs.

          Read Windows Internals, and you'll discover that new versions of Windows go far beyond UI changes.

          All these changes exploit far better actual hardware, and also can exploit actual GPUs much better than what XP could do - and not only for games, but for many kind of applications - for example technologie like Direct2D and many others are not available in XP and MS has no reasons to retrofit them on old code. In 8 the embedded hypervisor is also used to run emulators for mobile development. XP has no hypervisor, and its virtual machine software is really outdated compared to actual ones. And even VMWare and others may stop to support old OSes soon.

          XP64 bit was never widely used, and it's barely supported by 64 bit software. Most 64 bit client software has been written for Vista or above.

          IMHO it's perfectly silly to buy new, edge hardware and then run on it an old operating system not designed to exploit it fully. I too installed 7 on my new desktop - but just because I really don't like using 8 on o non touch device, but I really hope 9 will be released soon to exploit my new hardware better than even 7 does.

      4. This post has been deleted by its author

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: New Wheeze

          LOL. Just compare the network speed of SMB 2 and 3 compared to SMB 1... and XP kernel is much more bloated than newer ones. Compare GDI+ to Direct2D... if you like to live in the past for unknown reasons is up to you, but OSes are not like wine, they don't get better with time...

      5. Roland6 Silver badge

        Re: New Wheeze

        "Are you going to use your latest i7 64 bit six cores, 16GB+ of RAM and SSD disk with a kernel that isn't designed to handle that properly (and if it is 32 bit it can't handle more than 4GB of RAM)? Without support for latest GPUs capabilities? "

        For the majority of users a dual core configuration is more than sufficient to satisfy their needs, as is 2G RAM and on-board video.

        "Moreover as long as XP is around, most developers may be forced to write XP compatible applications, without being able to target newer improved features available in later OSes."

        If a developer can't handle multiple target platforms, they ain't a developer worth employing.

        1. mmeier

          Re: New Wheeze

          If you do desktop or even client-server software - Why bother with more than one platform? Windows ist 90+ percent of the client market and the paying rest in MacOS. If needed one can go Java and take the Macs with little extra effort but mostly even that isn't worth it.

  5. Daniel B.

    Waiting to see what Nadella does

    Win8 will keep on being a non-seller 'till they either get rid of Metro/Modern, or turn it into an optional thing returning the Start Menu and letting TIFKAM apps run as a window. Keep the UI on tablets though, that's where it does belong.

    There's a good chance they'll actually do it this time. The business sector has held on to Win7 even for their XP phase-out programs.

    1. mmeier

      Re: Waiting to see what Nadella does

      By mid 2014 that "non seller" will have 10 times the desktop market share of Linux, twice that of MacOS. Definitly a baaad thing - if you are into Penguins or rotten fruits

  6. e8hffff

    And I bet the sales figures include those with new PC sales. A situation where people are forced to buy the crap.

    1. mmeier

      Since the PinguBoys claim to be smart it should be very easy for them to figure out how to order a system without Windows (Easy with Dell, Lenovo etc). Even Windows/Solaris fans like me found out the secret a decade ago.

  7. cambsukguy

    I imagine one reason it doesn't sell as fast as they would like...

    ...is that Windows 7 is very good.

    This is a similar problem to a phone replacement these days. Why buy an S4 when this S3 is nearly as good (even though the S4 has a higher res screen for instance). Win8 and Win7 are much more similar in capability than an S4 and an S3 - there has been a worldwide downturn for 5 years after all.

    An iPhone 4S is very nearly as good as an iPhone 5 probably, camera notwithstanding, Given the cost, why upgrade?

    You would only upgrade a Lumia 920 to a 1020 if you must have that camera because they are almost the same otherwise.

    So, Win8 is probably being bought solely by people definitely needing a new machine - I keep thinking a nice i7 machine running Win8 would be a great but blowing maybe 600 quid for what amounts to a slightly zippier startup (something I hardly ever do anyway) seems terribly wasteful.

    Obviously, the touch screen I would have might be useful occasionally but almost all those cases are covered because I have a tablet. I rarely take the laptop on the road (probably never now because of the tablet) so the battery life is not important either.

    So, I will probably replace this machine when it actually fails, software or hardware, that could be a while - and that is from someone who has no trouble whatsoever using this new-fangled interface that seems to cause so much trouble for some - jeez, making WiFi work on early win95 prepared me for anything, clicking the desktop 'app' or booting to desktop mode just isn't that difficult.

  8. C. P. Cosgrove

    Win 7 / Win 8 / Win 8.1

    I tend to go with Cambsukguy - Win 7 is a good operating system. I find Win 8 on a non-touch screen a bloody nuisance, but Win 8.1 with its option to boot to the desktop is a good operating system. OK, some of the features are different and laid out differently, but for the little I have seen and used it for, it works quite well and it seems reliable.

    Having said that, I have Win 7 on this computer and expect to keep it for at least another couple of years. Then perhaps Win 9 ?

    I believe there is little doubt that it was marketing decisions that generated the negative reception that Win 8 got. Now, all i have to do is to find a screen to replace this Hanns.G that is beginning to go wobbly !

    Chris Cosgrove

    1. WP7Mango

      Re: Win 7 / Win 8 / Win 8.1

      Chris,

      I agree that it was a marketing mistake rather than a flaw with Windows 8.

      Microsoft called Windows 8 a "touch-first" operating system. But they should have been far more specific than that. What they should have said is something like this -

      "Windows 8 is our first touch-optimised operating system designed for tablets and new upcoming hybrid devices. Because it's Windows, you can still run your legacy desktop applications on these new devices for backwards compatibility. Although you can install Windows 8 on a traditional laptop or desktop PC with a mouse and keyboard, we don't recommend it because it's not optimised for that type of computer."

      I know it's not catchy marketing, but it removes any ambiguity from the very start. People would still be able to install Windows 8 on their existing desktops if they wished, but they would not have been under any illusion that it was going to be an optimal experience.

      1. Kunari

        Re: Win 7 / Win 8 / Win 8.1

        Why? Because MS wanted people to buy and install Win8 on those "traditional laptop or desktop PC" without touchscreens.

        MS Beta tested told them to enable a "boot to desktop" mode and asked for the Win7 type Start Menu to be an option. MS ignored them and we all see what happened.

  9. This post has been deleted by its author

  10. tempemeaty
    Meh

    The smouldering wreckage that is Windows 8...

    I have a shiny new laptop with windows 8 and I still keep finding it such a painfully bad experience I have continued to favor using my Linux laptop. I just can't get myself to use the one with windows 8 even though it's hardware is three times faster. If I didn't have to have a computer with windows on it I would have installed something else...anything else. I want to kill windows 8 with fire....

    1. sabroni Silver badge

      Re: The smouldering wreckage that is Windows 8...

      Considered opinion seems to be that 8.1 makes it a lot better. I'm still running 8 mind, there's always some bloody essential app i use for work that claims to be incompatible when I run the upgrade checker exe,

      Not really sure why you're finding it so difficult though, don't you just click on the desktop tile oince you've booted and stay there? I had to rewire some file types to not open in stupid metro apps when I first got 8 but now that's done I seldom see the start screen and I spend all day running it....

  11. SVV

    Keep polishing, Microsoft......

    They seem to think that with just a bit more elbow grease and marketing fluff they'll have a turd so shiny that people might actively want to buy it......

    How long are they all going to remain in denial, for fear that stepping outside of the corporate groupthink might cost them their positions on the very greasy career pole that Microsoft operates?

    Look, it's shit and everyone knows it, admit that you messed up and make a more optimized and functional version of Win 7 as a desktop OS and keep this Metro stuff just for the tablets and phones. And for the umpteenth time, give away your dev tools for free if you want developers to develop apps for your OSes : don't you understand that people might like to experiment first before coming up with what may be the concept for a killer app, rather than feeling that the investment required upfront is not worth the risk, especially as the reputation of your new platform in the market is somewhere near the "uncool and not pleasant to use" level.

    1. Kunari

      Re: Keep polishing, Microsoft......

      They're already working on Win9 and MS will never admit publicly that Win8 isn't good. I think they finally realized it when even 8.1 didn't take off. They are dropping Win8 like a toxic potato. They'll do what happened with Vista and move to a new OS as-soon-as-possible meanwhile they'll try to spin Win8's good graces.

      I run PCs with both Win8 (both touch & non-touch) and Win7. Win8 isn't bad when you use Classic Shell and make other tweaks on the non-touch PC since MS refused to do it. On the touch PC it's a pain to keep the screen clean (but that's my OCD) to where I don't like to touch the monitor.

      1. TheOtherHobbes

        Re: Keep polishing, Microsoft......

        Toxic Potato sounds like a Linux variant - probably an update to Aggressive Begonia or ASBO Eggplant.

        None of which would suck as much as Win 8, even if they were real.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Keep polishing, Microsoft......

      You may have missed there are free versions of Microsoft development tools that let you write client applications - incuding Metro (http://www.visualstudio.com/en-us/products/visual-studio-express-vs.aspx)

      But Windows is not only a client operating system, it's also a server operating system, and Microsoft developers tools target much larger development needs that the single app developer working in his basement. Those tools aren't free, and are a huge revenue generator for Microsoft - whcih would be really sillty to kill it. And when you have to code a large, complex application, the cost of development tools is just a tiny fraction of the overall project cost - and you prefer powerful, integrated, professional tools to a bunch of free tools you have to make work together.

      1. nematoad

        Re: Keep polishing, Microsoft......

        "and you prefer powerful, integrated, professional tools to a bunch of free tools you have to make work together."

        That depends if you actually have people that know what they are doing. If you employ low skilled code-monkeys than yes, you probably would save money on buying in to MS's proprietary system.

        Otherwise let the devs use what they find best for them.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Keep polishing, Microsoft......

          Professional developers like professional tools. When you have to manage large applications, you need tools to do it properly, test them, profile them, deploy them, etc. etc. Many code monkeys use VI and LInux as well, don't worry, don't believe you become a skilled developer just because "I don't use a GUI" (and that'explains why most Linux GUI applications are awful) - that makes you a nerd only, not a professional developer. A professional developer selects what streamlines his job, doesn't try to affirm an ideology. Believe me, if I can profile an application from my IDE and have the result shown directly inside the code editor, I'll do, instead of firing five different consoles and use five different tools with different UIs to obtain the same result. Because I save time I can use for improving my application, not fighting with someone's else.

          After all Windows development (but WinRT) is much more open than Linux one, where after all everybody uses GCC - you have more choice about development tools in Windows than in Linux - if you don't like Visual Studio you have alternatives.

          1. Nick Ryan Silver badge

            Re: Keep polishing, Microsoft......

            A professional developer selects what streamlines his job, doesn't try to affirm an ideology.

            Nearly. A professional developer, being a professional, usually has to just use whatever software he has been given to use and often a specific version that, for whatever dumb-arse fuckwit twisted reason, actually works with the legacy mess that he's working on. Sometimes the software choice is also out of his hands for other reasons such as having to develop an application that continues to work across as many versions of Windows as possible, in which instance there's often a case for using an old version of a development tool rather than a newer version which will often silently includes later version prerequisites thereby hobbling the deployment target.

            Given a choice, most professional developers favour using the tool that they are most familiar and comfortable with rather than always selecting the optimal tool for the job. The optimal tool for the job may only be optimal for this developer after a lot of new training or relearning and for a quick (haha) job the familiar is usually selected instead. There is more flexibility for new projects however corporate libraries may not be compatible and there is always, for good reason, pressure to re-use existing code rather than create new copies of the same functionality.

            After all Windows development (but WinRT) is much more open than Linux one, where after all everybody uses GCC - you have more choice about development tools in Windows than in Linux - if you don't like Visual Studio you have alternatives.

            I disagree with this. Firstly there is a big difference between a compiler and an (Integrated) Development Environment (IDE). GCC is a compiler and it neither claims to be, nor is, a development environment. There are alternatives to GCC as well however given the structure of GCC many additional components just enhance GCC rather than attempt replace it wholesale. This, if the structure is good enough, is a very good way of operating and this modularity is one of GCC's key strengths. There are quite a lot of development environments for Linux however your level of satisfaction will depend greatly on the level of integration that you need or desire. Unfortunately these days on Windows there are very few remaining genuine development environment tools that are not cross platform and therefore also available for Linux (and often OSX). The most "used" ("used" is not the same as "popular") development environment for Windows is, of course, Visual Studio. However this tool is very inflexible in that you will work the Microsoft way or not at all. You will use the Microsoft tool stack or you have to try to work around with the alternatives, which wastes a lot of time. Visual Studio's overall operational inefficiency and user interface leaves a lot to be desired as well (note to MS - don't ask your developers for feedback, get told it and then ignore it because you are too arrogantly stupid and have a "vision"). However it is familiar to a lot of developers therefore gets used even when there are rather better alternatives available.

            As for Linux GUIs... yes, they are often appalling. While the tools available in Windows are often better on the GUI front, I assure you that this often doesn't translate into a better GUI - just one with more visual components. There is a world of difference between good developers and good user interface designers.

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: Keep polishing, Microsoft......

              Many professionals can decide what has to be used for their projects - if they have enough power inside the company they work for. Of course changing tools continuosly can have an adverse impact - because you can deliver faster and better quality with tools you know well, even if not edge, instead of having to re-learn too much too quickly.

              But you may have missed that even Visual Studio is an "open IDE" today and you can add other tools and compilers inside it. You don't like its VCS and like Git? You can use it. Prefer an Intel compiler? You can do it. And there are many third party tools - you can integrate the Oracle tools inside it, for example. Writing a stored procedure inside VS is much better than in a console SQL*PLUS session...

              And there are still many Windows applications which are not written with Visual Studio.

              While the average Windows GUI application is usually better than the average Linux GUI application for the simple reason developers used to work within GUI istintively design better GUIs (often just borrowing from what they see every day) and taking advantage of tools more advanced to design GUIs, than those used to consoles and with primitive tools for GUI design.

    3. sabroni Silver badge
      Happy

      Re: Look, it's shit and everyone knows it

      No.

      You are!

  12. RayTech

    The problem with Windows 8, in my view, was the blurred lined between desktop and Metro. Single user systems can easily get trapped into having to read mail through the Metro interface but still rely on desktop for productivity software such as MS Office, OpenOffice, or Adobe Creative Suite... the "windows" of windows is shot at this point: a user has to literally bounce to an entirely different screen just to check email-- rather than "minimize" their mail and bring it up when needed... that entire screen shift is jarring to say the least. The other biggie was the broken promise of leaving the start menu, then giving it "halfway back." That was just dumb. I currently optimize Windows 8 by making it look and feel like Windows 7 using classic start menu (free) and a host of registry and system changes implemented via scripting... Once done, Windows 8 runs and looks like 7 and in most cases (for new equipment) Windows 8 is actually faster... but to get there you have to "debrand" it and put up with that brief moment you see the metro screen during boot.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      I agree that 8.x is slightly faster booting. I wonder how many multi-booters think it is so fast after disabling hybrid sleep.

      On the exact same hardware - just slightly different positions on the disk - I find XP x64 less multicore efficient than either 7 or 8.x, but have drivers for everything. In the last two versions the nvidia HDMI audio driver breaks Shutdown - so use the Realtek one. DotNet 4.x also breaks Shutdown.

      8.1 with Classic Shell is pretty good, but not as pretty or good as 7, and I hate Ribbon in Explorer (sorry, File Mangler) even though I'm happy with it in Office 2007. I think the ribbon thing is wanting to zip round the file system, but taking time, concentrating, considering my next course of action in Office.

      I liked XP x86. I love Aero in 7 but loathed Luna. With Classic UI and Display Set, and T-ClockX, I had XP looking and feeling really comfortable, but that went the way of the Dodo with 64-bit. I'm not interested in running it as a VM as I find 7 vastly superior. Plus built this box with a mullticore x64 processor and 8G RAM. Figure after April I'll set XP up so the only thing getting through is AV updates.

      With 8.x I figure I'll do like I did with Vista: when the next - improved - version comes out, delete it, hide the bargepole, throw away the installation discs.

    2. mmeier

      Depends IMHO. If you use the box "for work" than you need MS Office/Professional if you use the MS suite and that contains Outlook. That works the old way as would Notes

      If you use the box "purely privat" - how many people use a dedicated mail client and how many of those used the MS supplied one. Because that latter group is the only one that is "forced" to use the Modern-UI version now.

  13. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Considering VL Windows 7 SKU's are no longer available...

    No shit?

    We over here purchased a hundred Windows 8 licenses not long ago...

    ...to install Windows 7.

  14. RAMChYLD

    Region locking

    8.1 had the nerve to tell me that I'm not allowed to play games because XBox Games isn't available in Malaysia yet. Sorry Microsoft, that was the last straw, aside of killing off Ovi Store and turning my ancient but beloved Nokia N97 into a fancy paperweight.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Region locking

      That what happens when the silly world of media entered the world of software applications. Media are obssessed by regional control - (who obtained region control of DVDs?) - they are the only one that didn't understand what the Internet meant and that "regions" no longer exist for many types of content. When they discoverd many computer games are better designed than most movies they release, they decided to apply to games the same silly rules they apply to movies.

    2. MJI Silver badge

      Re: Region locking

      Games.

      Welll you are trying to use a PC not a X360, so try the proper places for PC games Here

      No idea why your PC is trying to be a games console.

  15. ben_myers

    Are the Windows 8 probems insurmountable?

    The Microsoft mouthpiece says that 200M Windows 8 systems have been sold. Don't know what it's like on the right side of the pond, but over here on the left side, I would bet that 90% or more of the Windows 8 systems have been sold to unwitting consumers. Go into any big box store like Best Buy, Staples or Walmart, and the only Wintel computers you see are running Windows 8. So what is the garden variety consumer to do when the choice is Windows 8 or Windows 8???

    Lenovo did not drink Microsoft's Windows 8 Kool-Aid and continued to sell Windows 7 systems. Look where it has gotten them? They are numero uno in sales of Wintel computers, no thanks to Micro$oft. Only belatedly did Dell, before Michael's privatization, offer Windows 7 systems in its mailers.

    So let's face it Microsoft. Windows 8 is a consumer system, because you have shoved it down the collective throat of the public.

    I continue to encounter only consumers, not businesses, with Windows 8 systems, and my knee-jerk reaction is to install ClassicShell to make Windows look more like XP or 7, not the damnable and inscrutable Metro tiles. Everyone whose system now has ClassicShell thinks it is an improvement.

    What is also pretty atrocious about Windows 8, and something about which few pundits have commented, is that just about every Metro app forces you to sign up on the Microsoft mother borg ship as a prerequsite to using the app, so they can get their hands on your privates. And people have said that the US NSA is bad? Hah! Nothing compared to Microsoft. Maybe Microsoft taught the NSA a thing or two. Wouldn't be surprised.

    As another posting suggested, most Linux distros offer various possibilities for customization of the graphical user interface, so you set it up the way you like it. This is not rocket-science, but simply treating customers with respect, something Microsoft does not know how to do after 30+ years in business. So Windows 8 and the lack of respect for customers (and OEMs!) is biting Microsoft in the ass.

    1. mmeier

      Re: Are the Windows 8 probems insurmountable?

      And now we take a short look at the typical Lenovo customer and find - BUSINESS

      And with that knowledge we look at what Business IT likes best - Minimum possible amount of different systems in client and server environments

      So guess what Business, that is to a larger degree on Win7, will prefer. Not because of good/bad but simply because of easier to work with

  16. Bucky O' Hare
    FAIL

    "Much of the blame for Windows 8's slower growth can be placed on the downturn in the PC market"

    Wait Microsoft, you actually directly caused the DOWNTURN in the PC market! Don't you see this?

    As it was, there was no user excitement in wanting to the latest, fancy new Microsoft OS, so nobody bought Win 8. With XP, Vista and 7, there was a huge clamour to upgrade. Had there been this with Win 8 it would have reverberated around the whole PC industry, and I guarantee we wouldn't be in the same position that we find ourselves today.

    Shooting yourself in the foot.

  17. Tank boy

    Almost pulled the trigger

    I was getting frustrated with 8.1 I really wanted to put linux on my new laptop. I'm not a fan. It's not bad, but it ain't good. Mileage may vary.

  18. Charles Smith

    Even Version Number

    I've learned long ago, never buy an even numbered version of Microsoft Windows. Look back over their history.

    MS gather a good team of developers to create an odd numbered version which sells well and meets public demand. Those developers are then either promoted out of the way or sidelined by the next brood of young turks/suits who "develop" the next major release (even numbered) which turns out to be a lemon. The survivors are in place to fix their design errors/lessons learned while working on the next (odd numbered) major release.

  19. WatAWorld

    Selling Windows 7 is like selling an iPhone 5

    Selling Windows 7 is like selling an iPhone 5.

    It might not be the latest thing but the vendor still makes money on it.

    PC vendors need to stop blaming MS for their lack of sales. Their lack of sales is their own darn fault.

    If they made new computers with compelling new features not available on existing computers they would be making sales.

    The fantasy vendors and "industry analysts" (with their liberal arts degrees) have that some new OS with more junk bloatware added to it would boost PC sales is a junk theory.

    If a different OS would boost hardware sales then Linux or Mac OS would have done that already. Even the dumbest consumer wants an OS that sits in the background and requires no learning.

    1. illiad

      Re: Selling Windows 7 is like selling an iPhone 5

      very true...

      BUT the problem with Linux is it's users... at least mint and ubuntu is 'getting there'...

      "get Linux, its free" they say.. about as confusing as saying 'get a car' YES, your sisters/brothers/ partners/ moms/ dads car is 'as free as Linux... BUT its not as easy to work as your bicycle or scooter!!! LOL and when Linux goes wrong, you cannot ask relatives for help!!

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Selling Windows 7 is like selling an iPhone 5

      The new OS is Android. Chromebook anyone?

  20. illiad

    hey our sales have DOUBLED :)

    We sold our SECOND phone this month!!!! LOLOLOL

  21. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    MS made development more a "walled garden" in 8 - and the result has been less applications

    One of the reason of the lack of "native" WinRT applications in Windows 8 is MS tried hard to tie their development to its own development tools, following the mobe trend. Third party tools can't easily target WinRT applications because some APIs can't be reached but by "specially approved" executables. Mozilla had this issue, and others too. For an environment that came late, wasn't well received and desperately needed applications, it was really a bad move. MS should open development to more tools, after all even Apple had to remove the constraint that tried to hinder third party tools to compile for iOS.

  22. Thought About IT

    Lenovo experience

    A couple of Lenovo PCs I bought recently to replace XP came with Windows 7 installed and Windows 8 on DVDs. Having tried Windows 8.1 with ClassicShell and seeing it was similar enough to using Windows 7, I decided to bite the bullet and upgrade the Lenovos. The process of installing Win 8 from Lenovo's DVDs, then using Windows Update to go to Win 8.1 took about 3 hours for each PC! However, the users, who've been on XP for years, have said they much prefer the new environment, so I'm glad I did it.

    1. Jess

      Re: Lenovo experience

      I don't think that anyone disagrees that Windows 8 with the metro UI garbage removed and start menu re-instated is a good system.

      The problem is that corporates cannot rely on a bit of freeware that might stop working with an update. It needs to be like that with no additional software.

      It isn't.

      So windows 7 gets rolled out, despite being inferior.

  23. Anonymous Coward
    Facepalm

    Two hands....

    On the one hand, I love Windows 8. The gesture interface make perfect sense and I find the Metro side of things to be intuitive and fluid (even with a mouse on a desktop - I know, sorry).

    On the other hand, I think that forcing users to use the Metro interface must be one of the dumbest numbskull decisions that Microsoft ever made (and that's even counting Windows Mobile - not Windows Phone ;). What possessed them to do that!? Totally stupid (IMHO).

  24. Sheep!

    The majority of those licences are because manufacturers are forcing Win 8.x on punters buying new machines. I've had several people buy new laptops recently that don't have touchscreens and have asked me to remove it and put Win 7 on instead (which is a pain in the arse as several of them don't have Win 7 drivers for the wireless). Give people an option (as HP are now doing) and most would choose Win 7 on their laptop and certainly on their main pc, and yes I've been running Win 8.x for 18 months on my touchscreen notebook so I am fully conversant with the system and how abysmal it is. I'v tried to love Win 8.x, some of it even makes a lot of sense on a touchscreen device but it really is the bastard hybrid son of a real OS and a tablet OS and it fulfills neither function to proper satisfaction.

  25. Busby

    A few weeks ago i would have agreed with 90% of the comments on here. Had played with Win 8 for about 20 minutes on a desktop and found it confusing and a bit of a mess.

    Bought a new laptop last week that came with Win 8. Boots in seconds and with a touch display I'm finding that i actually like it. First few days very frustrating but after watching a ten minute you tube video sussed out what I needed to.

    Despite me liking it when using touch still seems crazy to force it on desktop users or non touch laptops. With touch though I think TIFKAM is actually not bad and worth giving a chance. Is a very big difference whem compared to the interface on Win 7 and I think that's enough to put most people off.

    Surely I'm not the only reader of El Reg to like it? For me using a combination of keyboard shortcuts, touch pad motions and touch I can use it far quicker than I managed with Win 7. Understand YMMV but for me with this machine it seems a nice clean modern OS.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Wait for the burn out

      I know of several people (well 6) who have bought windows phones/laptops. With every one I made a point of telling them to try the interface first as people view it in a similar vein to marmite.

      For the first month everyone of them was happy with their purchase, after that month the complaints about it started. Usually around 6 weeks I get a call to put the start menu back, by six months I usually get a diatribe about how much they hate some aspect of it.

      I think MS messed up, they should have written the shell in a manner similar to KDE's plasma workspaces. Letting people choose TIFKAM or the standard desktop and have applications display an appropriate front end.

      Playing with the Windows 8 Beta meant I didn't buy it when it came out (unlike Vista & 7), I've switched to Debian Wheezy (KDE).

  26. janimal

    Good or Bad makes no difference

    There is no good or bad, only different. The only reason for an operating system is as a basis to run other software on their hardware.

    With that in mind I think what every single OS consumer wants is a an OS that they can configure to their needs - or possibly to several different needs.

    I'm someone who is literally glued to my computer every second of the day. I use it for work, communication, hobbies and media consumption. I use 1, 2, or 3 screens depending on what I am doing.

    MS did everything they could to force users to use the OS in the way that they want you to & that one vision simply doesn't go anywhere near to covering every use case. They also violated many HCI best practices, and these weren't just made up. They have arisen through 30 years of user testing on all sorts of different interfaces.

    If you are going to let the marketing & finance departments design an OS this is what you get.

    Finally although I know that I can configure a win 8 (.1) machine to never show the shit tile interface, I really hate the flat, aesthetic of the desktop. I don't want to have to stare at something that ugly 18 hours a day thanks.

    They should forget about trying to brand everything as Windows and make 1 decent OS that is highly configurable - suitable for desktops. Then if they want to force media consumers into a walled garden device paradigm - build some walled garden devices, unrelated to windows.

    It wouldn't hurt if they created decent specs for their file formats for their various software and published these so that their own and other 3rd party developers' software can read and exchange data of course.

    Who is the dark & baleful entity somewhere deep in their cellars who still after all these years are trying to lock users into an exclusively MS eco-system? CEO's come and go but their policy remains the same. Our way or the highway.

    I'll take the highway thanks.

  27. beaulieu8

    Windows 8 isn't that bad, it's different...

    And people are reluctant to change how they work. But note the advantages: it's fast and completely compatible with Windows 7. In desktop mode you can hardly see the difference. Even the metro interface has it's plus: an overview of the installed programs with icons, page wide.

    I guess people who also use Linux (like myself) are a bit more open to differences in the UI. In the end you work with a program like IE or Firefox. It fills your screen and you do your thing with it. Who cares about the OS? But most of all, why are people so critical about the way they have to go to get identical results?

    Windows 8 is likely to pick up more market share on tablets, especially in business. That will have an impact on future sales. The move towards that market wasn't stupid, it's only that sales are disappointing.

    1. Steve Todd
      Stop

      Re: Windows 8 isn't that bad, it's different...

      No, it's bloody awful. The big problem is that it's completely schizophrenic, if you start IE from Metro then non of your settings or cookies from the desktop version are present for example. There are two different control panels. The Metro interface isn't intuitive (swiping from the sides etc.). There are many professional GUI designers who have ripped it to bits.

      1. WP7Mango

        Re: Windows 8 isn't that bad, it's different...

        It's just as intuitive as other touch-screen operating systems. Yes, some gestures might need learning, but that's the same for all touch-operating systems.

        There is only ONE Control Panel. The Metro PC Settings is NOT the Control Panel, even though they might share many of the settings. The point is, on a touch-screen device it's easier to use the Metro PC Settings than the Control Panel.

        You can start IE from Metro so that it automatically launches the desktop version, if you so wish. And in Windows 8.1, the settings ARE shared between the desktop and Metro IE versions. For example, if I set the zoom level from 100% to 150% in the Metro IE, this setting is replicated in the desktop version too.

  28. apjanes
    Facepalm

    Why all the rush

    As a number of fellow posters have said, Windows 7 is a good OS and Windows 8 (even without the hated Metro interface) doesn't really provide enough extra to require and upgrade. Another regular theme in tech news is that XP is still running strong, despite Microsoft's efforts to kill it off.

    To me that begs the question, if there are so many XP machines still needing upgrading to Windows 7 (which is truly a beneficial upgrade), why didn't Microsoft concentrate on marketing Windows 7, getting the revenue from remaining XP users, and instead spend a little more time over Windows 8 to produce a polished product that meets user needs and provides truly beneficial features?

    1. MikeyD85

      Re: Why all the rush

      Because that would ruin the idea that every other MS OS is rubbish.

  29. Tromos

    As a developer...

    ...I can only see one reason for developing for Windows 8 and that is to get into the App store. I'd rather do without that dubious pleasure and develop to Vista vintage which gives me Vista and 7 and 8 to sell into.

    1. WP7Mango

      Re: As a developer...

      As a developer, I'm targeting both Metro and legacy desktop.

      This way I can sell into XP, Vista, 7, 8, RT, Xbox One and Windows Phone.

      1. Steve Todd

        Re: As a developer...

        From one code base? That's clever. AFIK you can't get Windows phone code to run in Metro and vice-versa. The two are subtly and annoyingly different. Providing your code works on Windows 7 you've dealt with 95% of your market for most software.

        1. WP7Mango

          Re: As a developer...

          Not one code base at the moment, but I do use portable class libraries wherever possible.

          I'm looking forward to the WP8.1 SDK because it looks like this will make it much easier to develop WP8.1 and W8 apps from a single code base.

      2. Daniel von Asmuth
        Windows

        Re: As a developer...

        I'm targeting Windows 2000 and later (desktop and laptop). Compatibility (Win32 API) is of the essence. Working on a 64-version for release later this year.

  30. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Do they include enterprise licences in those figures?

    We're on a volume agreement and get a significant number of Windows 8 licenses, along with 7, XP, Vista and the like, but we won't be using them.

    1. WP7Mango

      Re: Do they include enterprise licences in those figures?

      No, Volume Licensing was not included in those 200 million, according to Microsoft.

  31. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    open goal

    The new Microsoft guy must be rubbing his hands. It's an open goal in front of him.

    After Vista, MS just had to do a bit of tinkering to produce Windows 7 which is generally regarded as the best ever.

    It's pretty obvious what changes Windows 8 need, if MS had have listened to feedback on the pre-release versions, they'd have done this from the start:

    1. Put a proper start button back

    2. Have a proper start menu

    3. Don't force anything to full screen, don't split settings between desktop and full screen places.

    Basically if they really must have these Windows apps things, then just have it as something that can run in a Window within the normal desktop environment so people aren't forced out of their desktop.

    It doesn't need a huge amount of engineering or research to know what the problems are or to fix them. And as with Vista -> Windows 7, if they do a decent job, then they'll be able to sell it.

  32. Al.Kaholic
    Angel

    Clueless

    A huge percentage of Windows 8 licences are simply Windows 7 Professional with the Windows 8 sticker.

    Subtract those numbers and you're left with the cheap machines from big box stores purchased by people who did not know better. In the case of the truly clueless, Windows 8 can be useable for Facebook and webmail.

  33. Bob Camp

    Windows 8.1 isn't bad with a touch screen

    I find Windows 8.1 to have a split Metro/desktop personality, which is annoying at times. But my new notebook has a touch screen AND a touch pad. My wife, who is not very computer literate, took to the Metro interface right away using this notebook PC. When I use it, it's the best of both worlds -- I can just swipe to navigate as designed, yet I can also use the touchpad for accuracy and right click when I need to.

    One of my desktop PCs has Windows 7, and I'm not going to upgrade it to Windows 8 because I can't imagine navigating Metro without a touch screen while maintaining my sanity.

    The other desktop PC is happily running XP and will continue to do so until it stops working.

  34. Daniel von Asmuth
    Windows

    seven, eight, nine, Microsoft rules fine

    come April, all those old Windows versions can upgrade to XP, the Stable OS; mission accomplished!

  35. roselan

    meamwhile... xp growth beats windows 8

    At least according to netmarketshare, which can't be said to be anti ms to what I understand.

    Of course this is a ripple in the downward trend of xp, but still, it's telling... (xp usage is 5 times higher than win 8).

    Now we hear Nokia will do an amazon and release an android phone. Linux and chromeOs are free, OEM get paid for android (they receive part of google stores revenue). OSes are free like browsers now. For enterprise web apps becomes the norm. Services are king.

    It wouldn't surprise me if, in a few years, android or chromOs *hardware* is given for free, embedded with the ISP router, tv, nas, or even chromeboxes.

  36. bex

    yes but

    I really don't like the Modern UI (or whatever they are calling it now) on a desktop, it's a mess.

    That said if you circumnavigate the tiled interface the new desktop style makes windows 7 look old.

  37. Oldgroaner

    Win 7 is good enough. Why spend on new OS? Microsoft's idea -- we'll come up with something that means you have to unlearn everything for a decade or more -- and for non-touch desktop owners is incredibly inconvenient. This is our usp. We can't be bothered to implement improvements in speed, stability or security (Win 7 SP2) And now they wonder why Win 8 is seen as a rat sandwich (and death to many PC manufacturers).

  38. Grade%
    Windows

    Ye cannae 'ave my sweet, sweet Aero!

    We be usin' the Aero see, an' wi' no Aero in Windah8 but that mawkish fla' colour 'ard on de eyes it be no good. An we sit back an' look on ye monitor so to smear the screen wi' me greasy fingers be not very nice at all. And what be that App Store? Ye be makin' me ill wi' that.

    Ge way wid ye an' come back nay wi' out somaht good!

    1. mmeier

      Re: Ye cannae 'ave my sweet, sweet Aero!

      Ceterum censeo Aero esse delendam

      The code sown with salt, it's users scattererd into a diaspora or brought to the circus and it's developers cruxified along Microsoft road

      Just to be sure

  39. Zmodem

    are they going to fix security permissions not being inherited from the parent soon

    replace all permissions on child objects, only half works, and any directory that is a child you make a new file is will have no permissions

  40. Sub 20 Pilot

    I have to use Windows for my work, having to run several stupidly expensive software packages that cost me several thousand pounds a year to keep licensed and updated. I don't have the time or inclination to learn a whole new set of shortcuts, commands or whatever just to do my work.

    I am far from being stupid or dumb, before the usual commenters come up and tell me it is so easy to just learn dozens of shortcuts, install a pile of thirs party apps etc. I have several qualifications, including some very technical design stuff, a pilot's license and some medical qualifications. I have learnt how to deal with software through necessity as I am self emplpyed and don't have recourse to a huge IT department.

    The change from XP to Win 7 meant I had to spend days finding and testing a variety of solutions so that I didn't have to scrap a perfectly working A1 format colour plotter. This lost me hundreds if not thousands of pounds, for no reason other than having to buy a new pc.

    Microsoft are in the business of selling software, that is fine. I don't have an issue with them making billions of profit year after year if they can. I have to use their stuff for my work because so many of our governments have rolled over and let them get away with murder in their monopolistic practices in the last 20 years.

    For this reason, I accept, reluctantly, that I will have to give them more money when my PC next needs replacement. The issue I have is that they are forcing me to spend thousands on unneccesary hardware or software just to keep working.

    The final straw is this abortion of an OS that will cost me a small fortune in lost productivity, trying to resolve driver and hardware issues. Just make a basic OS and let me pay for it. I am happy to do so just in order to get on with my work.

    If I could get all of my software to run on Linux I would have done so but currently that is not possible. Roll on an alternative OS that can work with windows based software. either that or roll on retirement so I can dump the whole lot and buy a nice cheap laptop and an open source OS for basic email and browsing.

  41. James 51

    I have used 8.1 on a laptop with a touch screen and a desktop without a touch screen. It's just about bareable on the laptop but on the desktop, frustration kept smacking me up the side of the head as even simple tasks were needlessly complex. For anyone using a PC for work, I'd avoid like the plague, particularly if you don't have a touchscreen.

    Windows 8 natural home might be those 8" tablets that are coming out now. The messed up interface might work on a small touch screen. Put in a 64-bit copy with 4GB of RAM and a 2.5" SSD with at least one USB 3 port and they could be on to something.

    1. WP7Mango

      james51,

      That's what the Surface Pro 2 tablet is for. It has a 64-bit Haswell Intel Core i5 processor. You can choose either 4 GB or 8 GB RAM. You can choose either 64 GB / 128 GB / 256 GB / 512 GB SSD (mSATA). It has a USB 3.0 port, a Micro SD card slot, and a Mini Display port to drive multiple high-res external monitors. It has an integrated Wacom digitizer.

      I have the 8 GB RAM / 256 GB SSD version and yes Windows 8.1 works great on this kind of device. And because of the spec, I can even run a VM and virtualise a copy of Window 7 or XP on it if I need to use any old software.

      1. James 51

        Yeah, but the surface pro 2 is over £700. That's straying into ultrabook territory. That's at least £200 more than the 15 inch iCore 5 touch screen laptop with a lot of ram and a big hdd and a decent gpu that my wife bought a few months ago. £350 is the most I'd pay for convience of being able to carry my tablet in my bag and be able to use it to do some light work on as well.

        1. WP7Mango

          Yes, but the cheap laptop you speak of doesn't have a Wacom digitizer, it doesn't have 8GB RAM, and it doesn't have an SSD. The Surface Pro will significantly outperform it.

          Besides, I was just pointing out that the tablet spec you mentioned already exists, and the Surface Pro is just one example.

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