back to article Amateurs find the 'HOLY GRAIL' supernova – right on our doorstep

Exploding stars aren't an uncommon event in a universe with billions upon billions of stars in billions upon billions of galaxies – but catching an explosion in the act on our galactic doorstep is rare. (Well, 11.5 million light years away is, in astronomical terms, quite close by, and as I'll explain later, the type and …

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  1. Annihilator
    Paris Hilton

    Sub-heading?

    "Exploding star a mere 12 light-years away"

    And article says 11.5 millions light years away?

    1. Richard Chirgwin (Written by Reg staff)

      Re: Sub-heading?

      Thanks - missed a million there! Fixed.

    2. Murphy's Lawyer
      FAIL

      Re: Sub-heading?

      Too late! [Evil_grin]: https://twitter.com/murphyslawyer/status/426113205459382272/photo/1

      Very glad it's 11.5 million LY off - a mere 12 LY would not only ruin everyone's day, it would reduce the Solar System to highly ionised particles of toast.

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Start building a bunker, space debris on the way...

  2. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    We should call it the

    Champagne Supernova.

    Just a thought.

    Well that is, unless Alpha Orionis or WR104 goes off in the near future, although if the latter happens and the jet is Earth directed we could end up seeing a brief white flash as our atmosphere ionises PDQ.

    1. Michael Wojcik Silver badge

      Re: We should call it the

      Now you've reminded me of (mind-numbingly inane) Oasis lyrics. Damn you. Damn you to Hell.

  3. Cliff

    This event that's happening now happened a long time ago

    That's how light years work isn't it? This is really really old news that we're just receiving?

    1. This post has been deleted by its author

      1. Cliff

        Re: This event that's happening now happened a long time ago

        >>Yes, if we ignore relativistic complications, when this star exploded humans were still around 11,000,000 years in the future.<<

        Guess there's not much point in sending a 'sorry your star has blown up' card, then. Even first class, they'll be 20-something million years over it by now, hopefully moved on, don't want to reignite the pain by reminding them.

      2. Sander van der Wal

        Re: This event that's happening now happened a long time ago

        In Newtonian Mechanics there is no time delay because of finite signal propagation built into the equations. You can add one yourself, but that is not quite the same.

    2. Mark 85

      Re: This event that's happening now happened a long time ago

      Old news to those close to M82, new news to us. No such thing as instant communications across the void. Yet, there will be those claiming it's happening in the here and now since the universe is only 6000 years old.

      BTW, the sub-headline still says "12 light-years away".

      1. Destroy All Monsters Silver badge
        Big Brother

        Re: This event that's happening now happened a long time ago

        In that far away galaxy, Space Obama had just announced Space Obamacare, when the Supernova ruined the announcement, rendering healthcare not mandatory but null and void.

        1. Vociferous

          Re: This event that's happening now happened a long time ago

          And, everyone agreed before being vaporized, it was worth it, because it also made all buttholes who can't stop dragging their political propaganda into unrelated subjects null and void.

          1. Destroy All Monsters Silver badge
            Holmes

            Re: This event that's happening now happened a long time ago

            "Upon which progressotards in the forums saw their hotspots pushed, which were not of the nature liberated in the sexual revolution, rioted and started calling names, verily because their belief systems were bent and twisted and they didn't care about that starstuff when all was said and done."

        2. Sander van der Wal
          Thumb Down

          Re: This event that's happening now happened a long time ago

          Local politics is for locals. Please rant about it at one of your fine fora for discussing your version of local politics.

    3. Captain DaFt

      Re: This event that's happening now happened a long time ago

      Long, long ago in a galaxy far, far away.

      So six years from now, we see a second one go boom?

    4. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: This event that's happening now happened a long time ago

      Forget relativity, what about quantum physics? If there were no observers around when the star exploded (never mind that quantum physics hadn't been discovered either), then presumably it was in a superposition of exploded and unexploded states until the light reached us. At that point the star instantaneously - through spooky action at a distance - became fully exploded.

      Of course, there may have been some earlier alien observers to fold into the wave function. But as we don't know whether they exist or not, that just makes it even more complicated.

      And you thought Schrodinger's cat was a problem?

      1. Muscleguy

        Re: This event that's happening now happened a long time ago

        But surely nearby non nova stars and other high energy sources bounced photons, neutrinos, cosmic rays, x-rays and other stuff off the superposition thus observing it by interaction even with no conscious observers around.

        There is a reason why in order to demonstrate superpositions we need still relatively small objects kept in hard vacuums at close to absolute zero, shielded from vibrations and in Faraday cages. As soon as the universe is allowed to interact with superpositions they tend to go 'poof'. No observers need apply.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: This event that's happening now happened a long time ago

          Well maybe. But OTOH, the finite speed of light provides pretty good isolation between the supernova and us until the light eventually arrives.The isolation is at least as good as you can get in any laboratory, because we know of nothing that can signal the state of the star to us faster than light in a vacuum. That's basically all the box is for in Schrodinger's famous cat-flavoured thought experiment - to isolate two macroscopic systems from each other.

          As for all the matter the light encounters on the way - well that's part of the wavefunction that we haven't yet collapsed. It's like the air inside Schrodinger's cat's box. The intervening atoms are all in a superposition, until we see the light. Then everything collapses into a self-consistent state.

          Of course, other interpretations are available. But they do tend to be just as weird.

          1. Grikath
            Boffin

            Re: This event that's happening now happened a long time ago @ AC 13:24

            hmmm yeah... And applying quantum principles to the macro world goes well for you?

          2. Stoneshop

            Re: This event that's happening now happened a long time ago

            because we know of nothing that can signal the state of the star to us faster than light in a vacuum.

            Well, a star blowing up should be bad news for the entities living on nearby planets, but apparently it's not sufficiently bad to have arrived here before we actually observed the explosion.

      2. Vic
        Joke

        Re: This event that's happening now happened a long time ago

        At that point the star instantaneously - through spooky action at a distance - became fully exploded.

        Are you trying to fit me up for somebody's star blowing up?

        Sheesh...

        Vic.

      3. intrigid

        Re: This event that's happening now happened a long time ago

        The Copenhagen interpretation of quantum mechanics really needs to go away. It's almost as bad as Deepak Chopra's interpretation of quantum mechanics, and I am NOT exaggerating when I say that.

    5. Michael Wojcik Silver badge
      Joke

      Re: This event that's happening now happened a long time ago

      Yes, and by the same token, this:

      Exploding stars aren't an uncommon event

      is unbridled speculation. All we know is that novae have been common in the past. They may have spontaneously stopped recently.

  4. dssf

    All of this

    Has pahhened before, and all of this will happen again. I can feel it in my bone.

    However, in the near term, let us hope that that list of things being ticked off does not include ETs on their way to hijack us... Especiallly if any include Cavil's forces.

    1. Vociferous

      Re: All of this

      > Has pahhened before

      Indeed. 11 million years before.

  5. Christoph

    No neutrinos?

    "Early hopes that neutrinos from the new explosion might be detectable from Earth, however, appear to have been dashed because of the dusty environment of the explosion"

    Some mistake surely? Neutrinos aren't going to notice something as trivial as a dust cloud. You need a light year's thickness of lead to have a reasonable chance of stopping a particular neutrino.

    1. dan1980

      Re: No neutrinos?

      Even at 12 million LY, I would think that it would be too far away to directly detect any neutrinos as they would be somewhat swamped by other sources. I believe one would have to be in our galaxy before we would be able to see an appreciable and identifiable burst from a supernova.

      I don't know what the dust has to do with it.

      1. RobS

        Re: No neutrinos?

        Well this is guessing but -

        Neutrinos assumed to be sent with radial symmetry (all directions equally).

        A (very) small fraction of the neutrinos in our direction will be lost because of the dust.

        A (very) small fraction of the neutrinos are coming in our direction (Total/area of sphere 11.4 light year radius)

        Our detectors capture a (very) small fraction of the neutrinos coming in our direction.

        Therefore, the astronomers think that the combination of effects are likely to result in an imperceptible change in the number of neutrinos detected relative to baseline - Can't do any science.

      2. Brewster's Angle Grinder Silver badge

        Re: No neutrinos? @dan1980

        We detected neutrinos from 1987A - which was just outside the galaxy (50KPc), and our detectors were pretty insensitive back then.

        1. Tom 7

          Re: No neutrinos? @dan1980 @brewster

          yeh but we'd need to be over a 100 billion times more sensitive now rather than the barely an order of magnitude or so we've managed.

    2. Frogmelon

      Re: No neutrinos?

      "You need a light year's thickness of lead to have a reasonable chance of stopping a particular neutrino."

      Thus, if neutrinos do not materialise, it proves that there must indeed be a light-year's thickness of lead between the exploding star and us.

      "How can this be?" I hear you cry. "We cannot detect such a large amount of lead, therefore it cannot exist!"

      That's why I've just invented "Dark Lead" (tm).

      It doesn't interact with anything apart from neutrinos, is totally invisible, and isn't very good for use as lead flashing as the rain tends to run straight through it, ruining ceilings and carpets.

      1. El Richard Thomas

        Re: No neutrinos? (Frogmelon)

        I recently graduated with a degree in Astrophysics and I've been wondering what to do with my life. Now I know, a PhD in the theory of and a career searching for Dark Lead. Time to get started on that funding proposal....

      2. Bunbury

        Re: No neutrinos?

        Handy for keeping that Dark Rain off of my Dark Axminster though.

  6. RobHib
    Happy

    ...our galactic doorstep

    11.5 million light years might be close in astronomical terms but it's hardly on our doorstep.

    500--1000ly would be much more exciting. Angling right, we'd probably even smell its 'breath'.

  7. attoman

    Who cares who is first to photograph?

    Kudos are due all the people involved as a pickup team of interested and dedicated amateur and professional astronomers. Its a group award.

    1. Werner McGoole

      Re: Who cares who is first to photograph?

      I always thought the IAU (www.iau.org) was the arbiter of astronomical discoveries. As the article mentions a "telegram" (remember those?) I assumed this was the official announcement because telegrams used to be the way it was done. Maybe it still is.

      However, I couldn't see anything obvious about it on the IAU website.

      1. Tom 7

        Re: Who cares who is first to photograph?

        http://www.astronomerstelegram.org/

        a good place to find out just how out of touch you can get since 6th form astronomy class.

      2. leeph

        Re: Who cares who is first to photograph?

        Telegram? I'm not convinced telegrams supported hyperlinks...

  8. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Stand well back

    Anybody here know how far away a supernova like this would have to be for the human race to survive it?

    1. Michael Habel

      Re: Stand well back

      At a guess 11.5 Million Light Years....

    2. Wilseus

      Re: Stand well back

      "Anybody here know how far away a supernova like this would have to be for the human race to survive it?"

      Anything closer than about 10 pc (about 33 ly) would cause problems for us.

  9. DropBear
    Facepalm

    Ominuos hum

    "Exploding stars are common, nearly 50 stars blow up every second!" - drat, now I finally know where that pesky 50Hz hum any sensitive enough electronics picks up is really coming from! I'm not falling for that "powerline" hoax ever again...

  10. dr john

    Didn't recognise what it was is not discovering it

    " students at University College, London supervised by Steve Fossey are also credited with first spotting the supernova"

    co-discovered???

    Em, no.

    AFTER being told it had been found, they merely realised that they had an image but didn't spot what it was.

    Many people may have an image, some may be earlier images, but if they didn't say "hey look, a supernova", sorry you did not discover it, Fossey and co. Investigating after the fact doesn't count.

    If, one hour before both these groups, I just happened to point my camera phone in the correct direction while taking a piccy of an urban fox, and one pixel was a tiny tiny tiny bit brighter than its neighbours, could I claim that it was the super nova and that it made me the person who discovered it??? ;-)

  11. tony2heads
    Pint

    M82

    People (like Tom Muxlow at Jodrell Bank) have been following developments in M82 for a long time; it has lots of relatively young supernova remnants and another supernova soon was highly likely (estimated about one every 30 years)

    http://www.merlin.ac.uk/topics/M82/

    Icon: for Tom

  12. ravenviz Silver badge

    Angular resolution of Hubble

    the Hubble Space Telescope has pre-imaging of the galaxy, images longer before the star would have blown up, which may allow us to directly see the star

    Really?

    Says here Hubble has an angular resolution of 0.05 arcseconds. My rough calculation that even to see Betelgeuse at 3.6 AU diameter at 11 million light years would require an angular resolution of 10^-6 arcseconds, which could only be achieved with more like a 5 km-wide mirror.

    And in spaaaaace!

  13. Andy The Hat Silver badge

    What's more amazing is that using small telescopes (4 or 5" refractors) and some modern techniques, amateurs are imaging this thing from their back gardens!

  14. Mr Michael Strelitz
    Thumb Up

    50/second

    Some fireworks display if one could watch this for a few minutes.

  15. taxman

    Just how fast does a neutrino travel if expelled from an exploding star?

    Assuming no Dark Lead is in it's path of travel

    1. John 62

      well, considering a neutrino has a very, very small mass, it can be accelerated up to pretty close to the speed of light. From guess at the amount of energy available in a supernova, I'd say the neutrinos are all accelerated up to their maximum speed. The interesting thing is that although neutrinos have mass and hence have to travel a little slower than photons, they don't interact much with anything and travel in pretty straight lines, so photons while photons get deflected by gravity along the way and suffer from slow downs due to changes in permitivity, neutrinos can arrive sooner than photons from the same event.

  16. BlueGreen

    A handy bit of XKCD about neutrinos

    "How close would you have to be to a supernova to get a lethal dose of neutrino radiation?"

    http://what-if.xkcd.com/73/

    Also has a truly amazing comparison of supernovae Vs hydrogen bombs

  17. The last doughnut
    Mushroom

    That is tremendous

  18. ElNumbre
    Mushroom

    The Phone Call....

    Hello, IT? This is God calling.

    I divided by zero again.

  19. tomban
    Thumb Up

    Ia

    "It is a 'reddened' Ia - meaning it occurs in a known dusty environment"

    For those, including myself, who were wondering what an 'Ia' is:

    From Wikipedia;I think it's number 3?

    Science:

    Inflammatory arthritis

    Ia (genus), of vespertilionid bats

    Ia or I-a, a subtype of Type I supernova; see Type Ia supernova

    Interactions of actors theory"

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