back to article Microsoft wants to 'move beyond' the Cookie Monster

Microsoft has confirmed a report that it is looking into replacing cookies, which underpin the global online advertising business, with its own technology that would store all that valuable user information on Redmond's own servers. Sources within the company told AdAge that Redmond is in the early stages of developing a …

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  1. Tristan Young

    What, Microsoft wants to give users more reasons to AVOID Microsoft products?

    Isn't Internet Explorer crappy enough?

    Haven't they lost enough respect in the world?

    Is Microsoft deranged? Mentally unfit?

    1. Tannin

      Yes.

      Or, in more detail, yes, yes, yes, yes, and yes.

      1. Stephen Channell
        Big Brother

        What do you think that Facebook "like" button is for?

        It's not for the special occasion when you really really must tell the world you like something!

        No it to track you for adverts.. same as Google+, MSN, yahoo and a whole load of others. All of whom share data with the NSA, and that's without mentioning the ISPs who are tracking your every click-stream again for advertisements.

        Maybe the answer is not to bitch about the evil profiling they've all been doing for years, but to lobby for a "cookie jar" option in HTTP, and allow us to choose if and where our cookies are stored.. it might be a cunning plan from intrusive advertisers, but it is also kinda nice if a travel site know where you live regardless of whether you're using a phone, tablet or PC

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Seeing as Google and Amazon are working on their own versions and Apple already have their own system in place for Safari and iOS I'm this a reason for you to not buy their products either?

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Don't use google, and I don't use safari, but yes... I do buy books on Amazon.com, so I guess I'm guilty after all. =(

    3. Adam 1

      > Is Microsoft deranged? Mentally unfit?

      So nuts that even Ballmer calls it a day?

    4. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Makes You Laugh Harder At MS's Already Laughable Scroogled Campaign

      At least Google is upfront that it is an advertising business.

    5. James Micallef Silver badge

      @Tristan

      "Microsoft wants to give users more reasons to AVOID Microsoft products?"

      You are right, however this is El Reg, NOT a representative sample of worldwide internet usage. Less clued-up users couldn't really care (or wouldn't even know) if some tracking data is being stored at MS. After all they are mostly happy enough with accepting cookies, ads etc.

      If 100% of El Reg users didn't use MS, it would move MS user base by maybe a hundredth of a percentage point.

      1. AndyS

        Re: @ James Micallef

        That might be true, but the literate technology users are the trend setters - they help other people set up machines, they work in IT departments, and they write reviews.

        Granted there's enough apathy to go around, but it's not the only force - witness the collapse of IE's market share to Firefox and Chrome in the last 5 or 6 years. It takes some time for the market to move, but decisions like this will do nothing to boost Microsoft's dwindling influence on the internet.

        1. JDX Gold badge

          re:That might be true, but the literate technology users are the trend setters

          Then how come IE was the dominant browser for a decade and MSOffice/Windows are still the de facto standard?

          1. Destroy All Monsters Silver badge

            Re: re:That might be true, but the literate technology users are the trend setters

            The standard belief is also that Hoover was laissez-faire and the "New Deal" helped to improve the economy. So what.

          2. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: re:That might be true, but the literate technology users are the trend setters

            Then how come IE was the dominant browser for a decade and MSOffice/Windows are still the de facto standard?

            To state the blindingly obvious; because they come bundled with virtually all PCs.

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: re:That might be true, but the literate technology users are the trend setters

              "because they come bundled with virtually all PCs."

              All PCs including Windows 8 offer you a choice of browser....And IE is listed last!

              1. D@v3

                Re: Browser choice

                You do get the choice, but IE is already installed, and i reckon a very large number of 'normal users' just click close on that, every time it pops up (along with all the other start up errors on a windows PC). every time they switch on their PC.

          3. Enric Martinez

            Re: re:That might be true, but the literate technology users are the trend setters

            The de facto standard for what exactly if I may inquire?

          4. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: re:That might be true, but the literate technology users are the trend setters

            "how come IE was the dominant browser for a decade"

            IE still is the dominant Windows browser....

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: @ James Micallef

          The "literate tech user" is biased and only reads literature that reinforces their exisiting beliefs as opposed to those that challenge it and The Register crowd is no different.

          1. Enric Martinez

            Re: @ James Micallef

            Well, yes, but we build the stuff and set it up, and we advise the non-literate tech user, we man the IT depts and the tech support ;)

          2. Steve Knox
            Holmes

            Re: @ James Micallef

            The "literate tech user" is biased and only reads literature that reinforces their exisiting beliefs as opposed to those that challenge it and The Register crowd is no different.

            That is demonstrably false.

            For example, I read your post.

          3. Allan George Dyer

            Re: @MattEvansC3 Re: @ James Micallef

            So, because I read you comment, then I must agree with you? Nah, have a downvote.

    6. NogginTheNog

      "more reasons to AVOID Microsoft products"

      Hmm, so MS hoarding and slurping your surfing data will give you (another) reason to avoid using MS? Howabout Android, Chrome, Google Search, and GMail then, all from a company who's raison d'etre, and considerable fortune, are built on exactly the same thing?

    7. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      "Isn't Internet Explorer crappy enough?"

      I guess you havn't used IE for a while. It's been the fastest browser on the market at release for the last 4 versions and is increasing it's market share...Not to mention IE has had far fewer security holes in recent versions than Chrome, Firefox or Safari....

  2. dan1980

    Yes, yes, very important

    "Microsoft believes going beyond the cookie is important."

    Important for whom, exactly?

  3. Splodger
    Flame

    Unbelievable!

    In a way you have to admire MS's audacity.

    All the same, they can just fuck. right. off.

    1. This post has been deleted by its author

    2. dan1980

      Believable, sadly

      Possibly the truly worrying thing is that these moves are becoming less audacious and more commonplace.

      Regardless, I agree with the sentiment.

    3. John Smith 19 Gold badge
      Unhappy

      Re: Unbelievable!

      "In a way you have to admire MS's audacity."

      It's what monopolists do.

      1. dogged

        Re: Unbelievable!

        That would be why Google and Amazon are doing it, then (see article).

        Interestingly though, we don't get an article and millions "M$ lol" comments about those.

      2. JDX Gold badge

        Re: It's what monopolists do.

        Yes, bing and IE are certainly monopolies

    4. Eeep !

      Re: Unbelievable!

      Damn their honesty in publicly indicating an intention to capture anything and everything about you and in the future probably expose it! It's not like facebook and google are doing the same thing already and sometimes retrospectively!

  4. LaeMing

    I for one welcome...

    ...any advertising annoyance that is tied in to IE and Bing to the exclusion of all other platforms.

  5. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Oh well...

    Just more IP addresses to block at my firewall

  6. Denarius
    Facepalm

    more to point

    what are these non-cookie based tracking things based on? It must be something that is close to a UIRI Universal Individidual Resource Identifier that gets tied to a users account on a machine. Another file to track or is the EEFI (sp?) going to be more toxic than it was intended to be ?

    As for trusting any identifier based on something that is stored on BigCorp (tm) server, oh great. Misidentification galore once the spooks, rozzers and general do-gooders get loose tracking down the latest objects of persecution. To comply with local laws of course.

    1. Paul Crawford Silver badge

      Re: "non-cookie based tracking things based on?"

      Do you not get pestered for a MS log-in when setting up Windows 8? My guess is this will become mandatory and one ID that MS can use to track you, and slurp your data to SkyDrive for better analysis.

      As if we did not have enough reasons not to desire a move to Windows 8 already...

      1. Enric Martinez

        Re: "non-cookie based tracking things based on?"

        LOL, I already see the Mac vs. PC spot comming..

    2. Destroy All Monsters Silver badge

      Re: more to point

      > To comply with local laws of course.

      What? You don't want to know about paedophile terrorist pro-gun abusive husbands in your neighborhood who are likely to avoid thermally isolating their house and are against single mothers and the homeless as they demand austerity and demolition of needed quangos and state tentacles?

    3. Suricou Raven

      Re: more to point

      Possibly some sort of hash based on IP address+OS version+browser version. MS knows which the OS or browser version change (they run the update servers) so could track a user for a long time on that information alone.

  7. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    "Our priority will be to find ways to do this that respect the interests of consumers."

    Simple : don't do it at all. That's respectful enough.

    1. A Non e-mouse Silver badge

      Re: "Our priority will be to find ways to do this that respect the interests of consumers."

      I think you misunderstand who Microsoft think is the consumer of this service ;-)

  8. Homer 1
    Terminator

    Oh joy!

    Cookie-substitutes you can't delete. Ever. And - bonus - they're owned and controlled by The Beast, who will sell them to the highest bidder (and just give them to the NSA).

    How could anyone refuse such a tempting offer?

    1. JDX Gold badge

      Re: Oh joy!

      Wow, they've let you in on their plans for a product that doesn't even exist? You know that after all the rounds of discussion and testing, they won't allow you delete your 'cookies'?

      Surely your NDA prohibits you disclosing this information.

      1. Destroy All Monsters Silver badge
        Meh

        Re: Oh joy!

        > You know that after all the rounds of discussion and testing, they won't allow you delete your 'cookies'?

        Been living under many stones, lately?

        Or member of the "business as usual" brigade?

      2. Homer 1
        Windows

        Re: Oh joy!

        @JDX: Oh excuse me, I forgot that this is the magnificently benevolent and trustworthy Microsoft, that shining knight of the tech industry that saves puppies from fire-breathing dragons, not a belligerent corporate despot hell-bent on monopolising the entire industry.

        So clearly I should just implicitly trust that they'll allow me full control of the data they harvest from me, and trust, with equal conviction, that they won't make backups, retain those backups for extended periods, gleefully pass my data on to the NSA (even under penalty of prosecution for violating an NSL), then ultimately sell-off my private bits for profit.

        Because, you know, businesses aren't really interested in profit, especially not the profits required to cover the costs of the service they're offering, and especially not when that business is one as benevolent as Microsoft, as opposed to, say, a company with a four-decade history of anti-trust violations, extreme hostility, patent racketeering and clandestine behaviour. They're certainly not interested in staying in business, or moreover staying out of prison, by doing whatever the NSA tells them to, then keeping quiet about it like the nice gag order thingie tells them to.

        So I humbly submit my unreserved apology for doubting your beloved Microsoft for even an instant, along with an invoice for payment, as per your instructions.

        Love 'n Kisses,

        Homer

  9. Roger Greenwood
    FAIL

    Who uses bing?

    I have tried saying to many people "just bing it" or similar and they either think I am nuts, joking, or both.

    1. Paul Kinsler

      Re: Who uses bing?

      Now that a large proportion (maybe even most) searching is done online, we no longer need a special word to denote online searching. Thus we can use that one we all used to use before we got all excited about computery stuff. You need only say -

      "Just search for it"

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Who uses bing?

      I kind of like Bing. It seems a little less censored then Google, especially the image search. Google has that always-on semi safesearch thing now where if you search for an ambiguous term, like "cream pie", or even "pussy" they'll only show you the clean meaning unless you add other words to clarify. Whereas on Bing you get pictures of literal cream pies and cream filled vaginas all mixed together. Which is... interesting. But more importantly it's an honest result, just what I asked for, without trying to second guess what I "really meant".

      Their related search suggestions are more interesting too, even if a few of them sound borderline illegal.

  10. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Microsoft is creating a new technology that only works within their own ecosystem?

    Let's see if I care, do I use:

    Bing? No

    IE? No

    Windows Phone? No

    Windows? Rarely

    Guess I don't have to care about this.

    You'd think they'd be trying to create a standard to be adopted, since the days of Microsoft being able to create something and have it become a defacto standard based on their control of the market are long past.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Microsoft ecosystem?

      Well, no doubt any MS webserver will construct and forward suitable cookie-like data for your browser/ip/whatever combination, regardless of what you do. And if site-owners join in, they could add such capabilities to any web server, not just specific MS ones.

      The decision on whether or not these new cookies might be constructed for you, stored elsewhere, and accessed by MS "partners", really needs have nothing to do with you at all. Maybe, if you are paranoid enough, you might make it hard to identify that browser/ip/etc combo with you uniquely ... but are you really planning to never use the web from home?

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Microsoft is creating a new technology that only works within their own ecosystem?

      "Let's see if I care, do I use:

      Bing? No

      IE? No

      Windows Phone? No

      Windows? Rarely

      Guess I don't have to care about this.

      You'd think they'd be trying to create a standard to be adopted, since the days of Microsoft being able to create something and have it become a defacto standard based on their control of the market are long past."

      Ah! Fanboi eh?

      So you think Apple are any better?

  11. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    the internet just gets worse and worse.

    1. Ragarath

      I think you'll find that most of the Internet is okay as it is. I think you meant to say, the world wide web get worse and worse.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      "the internet just gets worse and worse."

      This is what happens when the plebs get to join in. They ruin everything.

      Mumsnet was the start of the decline.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Those of us who have been around since before there was a web know it was AOL that started the decline. Google 'eternal September'.

        1. jake Silver badge

          Actually, DougS, it was Delphi's Usenet gateway, long before AOL.

          HTH, HAND.

          (Agree with you about AOL & eternal September, though.)

          1. Michael Wojcik Silver badge

            Re: Actually, DougS, it was Delphi's Usenet gateway, long before AOL.

            Delphi's gateway certainly did bring in a number of ... shall we say ... less-productive contributors, but I don't think it was "long before AOL". A couple of sources suggest my recollection of some time in 1992 for the introduction of Delphi's gateway, and AOL ushered in Eternal September in '93.

            Of course Usenet had suffered periodic waves of invasive newbies before. Besides normal month-long Septembers (when a new cohort of college students got access), there was for example the introduction of FidoNet gateways in the late '80s.

            And many of the worst offenders of various sorts on Usenet had either traditional UUCP or newfangled NNTP access right to a node, rather than going through a gateway. That includes the first spammers (Thomas and Canter/Siegel), for example. They were Usenet residents rather than tourists, so to speak. But the tourists did track a lot of mud around the place.

  12. Adam Foxton

    Why yes,

    This IS going to tempt me away from my XP-and-Linux infrastructure. You go ahead and spend your money developing it, MS. Go on, spend ALL of it on this single-ecosystem solution. Lock down your remaining users tight. Both of them.

  13. jake Silver badge

    Redmond?

    Oh, yeah, the company I banned from systems under my control on January 1, 2010.

    One wonders when the world of computing will move away from the marketards and manglement who are completely destroying personal privacy ...

    1. JDX Gold badge

      Re: Redmond?

      How is your home-business going jake, I was meaning to ask?

      1. This post has been deleted by its author

      2. jake Silver badge

        @JDX (was: Re: Redmond?)

        That's businesses, not business ...

        All but the kennel & tack store are in the black. Thanks for asking :-)

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Redmond?

      "the company I banned from systems under my control on January 1, 2010."

      So you moved to Office 365 as well? It's really very good....

      1. jake Silver badge

        @AC10:01 (was: Re: Redmond?)

        Uh, no AC. I don't use, support, or condone anything Microsoft.

        Reading comprehension problems, AC? Or are you hard of thinking?

  14. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Haven't they learned ANYTHING?

    If this is the way they want to go then I honestly fear the worst has yet to come. Obviously this isn't the brightest of business models, and it makes me wonder if my recent jests about the "Underpants gnomes" may have actually been taken seriously by some beancounter... (nonsense of course, I hope ;)).

    Honestly, it's a bit saddening that apparently some of the higher ups still seem to believe that Microsoft is in a position to dictate the world, just back in the days of Netscape. In a way I can see where this is coming from. After all; one division doesn't work closely with the other division, instead they're sometimes even heavily competing and will even cheer each other on if they managed to "defeat" the other department. Even if that would mean damaging them, because hey; they were the competitors right?

    Sure. Too bad that everyone is forgetting that "they" were also your colleagues working in the same company. SO whatever gain, fame or profit you made is most likely partly used to cover parts of their losses. Oops...

    Nah; HUGE victory.

    This is no different. The Surface and Windows "divisions" can tell you exactly how well it goes when it comes to making your customers help adapt to your new products. Some people inside may even be able to tell you that it might have been a better idea to move on with the formula which may have been somewhat controversial from a Microsoft-user perspective (think Office Ribbons) but a formula which on the other hand actually managed to sell. Not merely selling because of a unavoidable need, but sells because the customer actually -wanted- that product.

    But yeah; if the Internet divisions never got that memo, or worse yet: couldn't care less how bad their competitors are going, then this is the kind of bullshit you can expect. Not exactly the best kind of business model if you ask me; reinventing the wheel over and over isn't very profitable. Especially if the end result is something most people would rather avoid than embrace.

    If MS doesn't wise up soon then I honestly fear the worst has yet to come, and it will most likely start somewhere next year. You do the math.

  15. Anonymous Coward 101

    It's a CLOUD solution!

    Why waste tens of kilobytes of disc space storing cookies when THE CLOUD can take the strain? Worried that you will not receive the correct marketing messages when out and about because the right cookies aren't on your device? Worry no more - THE CLOUD will help you, courtesy of Microsoft!

  16. James 100

    Passport 2

    So ... like cookies, but Microsoft can see and control them, users can't necessarily delete or even view them, being on MS servers? I'll be rushing to implement that ...

    For individual sites/domains you can already achieve this for free, with session state stored on your own servers. Presumably, this is all about sites sharing data across domains, outside the user's control - no thanks. I see the appeal there for advertisers, of course, but for users?

  17. RyokuMas
    Megaphone

    "Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it..."

    So Microsoft are "looking into it" and there's a great big article to detail this, which also mentions - almost as a throw-away remark - that Google and Amazon are already working on systems to the same effect... and yet the howls of outrage are directed almost solely at Microsoft.

    I hope that in about 10-20 years time, when Google rules all our personal data, spams us with adverts we cannot block and sells our personal information to the NSA and any and all third-party clients who have enough money, that everyone remembers this.

    It's not that I'm particularly pro-Microsoft, but I am definitely pro-competition. The fact that Microsoft recognise they need to shift their approach gets a thumbs-up from me, regardless of their past or how clumsy their approach. Competition, even if it comes from a source with a checkered past, is better than a new near-monopoly rising.

    1. codeusirae

      Re: "Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it..."

      @RyokuMas: "Google and Amazon are already working on systems to the same effect... and yet the howls of outrage are directed almost solely at Microsoft."

      I do know Google uses redirects in their search results that tells them what you find interesting. What else do Google and Amazon use in these systems to same effect?

  18. thondwe

    Forefrontt doesn't like this page

    Forefront this there's something dubious about this page - could be serious, could be unfortunate! Have sent it to MS for analysis!!

  19. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Block it?

    Perhaps it will be possible to use adblocking software and firewalls to block those domains they will use for storing this info.

    Personally I use Firefox and Opera.

  20. Brian Souder 1

    Even Better ...

    Why don't they just store it at the NSA and cut out the middle man? We all know they can be trusted with our information.

  21. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Oi Microsoft, Google, Amazon.

    BAD IDEA!

    once implemented, I will move away from these technologies/suppliers.

    At least currently we have ways of controlling cookies/ad men, removing that control means removing your user base!

    Silly, very very silly!

  22. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    M$ Cocks Up Agian

    I Thought IE came with DO NO TRACK ENABLED?

    So are they going to ignore their own privacy controls and users browser settings and invade their privacy?

    1. mark l 2 Silver badge

      Re: M$ Cocks Up Agian

      Do not track enabled for None MS websites, other than your cookies being available across many devices with one login i see no advantage to having them stored anywhere other than locally.

      Infact i often browse in privacy mode just so i don't get tracked.

  23. codeusirae
    Big Brother

    Valuable user information ..

    Does anyone of us want our browsing data stored in Redmond's own servers or shared with third parties. I fail to understand how a company that hands over data to the NSA is in the business of "maintaining customer privacy". If they're not using cookies then I assume this replacement technology is using some kind of hidden web bugs. Personally I couldn't give a fig about the needs of businesses who rely on cookies. A much bigger priority and what I do care about is my rights to privacy, as such I will be opting out of any such system. There is a way of opting out isn't there. You did ask them?

  24. Thomas Allen

    Involuntary tracking will not get far in Europe where they care about privacy

  25. Mark Simon

    What About Corporate & Government Privacy?

    Normal human beings have long been able to avoid using IE, especially legacy versions. Some corporate and government diehards seem to be fixated on IE for their own systems.

    How many will welcome built-in super-cookies which call back to their Microsoft Overlords?

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