back to article Brazilians tear strip off NSA in wake of Snowden, mull anti-US-spook law

Businesses selling online to Brazil-based consumers could be forced to store any personal data they collect about those individuals on local servers under proposed new laws under consideration in the country. According to an automated translation of a report by the Reuters news agency, the federal government in Brazil has …

COMMENTS

This topic is closed for new posts.
  1. ChrisM
    Go

    Doesn't Matter

    If the US authorities go to a US based company for data held in a 3rd party country with a valid court order... They will have to hand it over. They can't do anything else!

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Doesn't Matter

      ... unlikely if that server housed in a foreign location is property of a foreign subsid

      1. ChrisM

        Re: Doesn't Matter

        Petty distinctions like whether the data is the proprty of s subsidiary matter not a jot....

        Facing down the CIA/NSA will take an extremy large pair of brass balls like the owner of Lavabit...

      2. Matt Bryant Silver badge
        Facepalm

        Re: persistability Re: Doesn't Matter

        "unlikely if that server housed in a foreign location is property of a foreign subsid". Firstly, what is to stop the US companies simply sending a replicated copy back to the US? Secondly, who says a foreign subsidiary won't follow the orders from its US parent? And thirdly, who is to say that the caring, freedom-loving, socialist Brazilian government won't be taking the opportunity to exceed the US and mine the data for anything they can find on people the Brazilians government don't like?

        1. Peter Gathercole Silver badge

          Re: persistability Doesn't Matter @Matt re:foreign subsid

          The point here is that the subsidiary is subject to the law in that country they are established in, as are all of the employees working for the subsid (even those who may be US citizens while they are in the country). The US owners may be free from the effects of the local law, but the local employees certainly aren't.

          If this wasn't the case, companies like IBM and HP would never get UK Government contracts with organisations like the MoD or GCHQ, yet they obviously do.

          Having worked on Government projects with personal data involved, I know that data security is drummed into the local workers, as is the fact that they personally are liable to prosecution should data in their control be leaked. I'm sure as hell I would prefer the wrath of an employer rather than a jail sentence if I were asked to copy data across a national border.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Doesn't Matter

      Follow the money. If these kinds of changes start to hurt US businesses, the NSA will soon get their leash yanked.

      1. g e
        Holmes

        Re: Doesn't Matter

        Yep, the US is entirely dependant on cash, non-US cash. Make a conscious effort to buy non-US goods and those that you do, buy secondhand to deny first sale profit.

        If everyone did that for just one month...

        On that note, if anyone knows a good UK-based alternative to the Irish Amazon EC2 I'm using (price comparable, too) then let me know (yeah cloud-sourcing such info is lazy, I know)

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Doesn't Matter

          It doesn't matter because the data will also be mirrored in the USA.

          If the Brazillians think otherwise then it just goes to show that IT solutions thought up by MPs the world over are the same, ineffective, counter productive and costly. The only way they could ensure privacy is to have a closed completely wire based system for Brazil.

          1. Pascal Monett Silver badge

            Sorry, why would the data be mirrored anywhere ?

            US companies are selling goods all over the world, are you saying that their servers are also mirrored to other countries for that purpose ? I don't think so.

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              @Pascal Monett

              Pascal my dear boy, you are looking at it from the wrong end. There is no need for a US company to mirror their data to a second country but you can bet your boots that if a second country insists that data on its citizens is stored locally to that country then the US company will still keep all the data on US based servers.

              1. Anonymous Coward
                Anonymous Coward

                Re: mirrored

                Not if said legislation says that data for citizens of country X are ONLY stored in servers housed in country X.

                1. Anonymous Coward
                  Anonymous Coward

                  Re: mirrored

                  >Not if said legislation says that data for citizens of country X are ONLY stored in servers housed in country X.

                  You're not a comedian by any chance? Since when has the US bothered about legislation passed in other countries? The patriot act blatantly brushes aside any pretence of adhering to local data privacy concerns.

                  1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

                    Re: mirrored

                    At which point Microsoft/Apple/Google/Facebook/etc Brazil inc is charged under local laws, its executives are imprisoned and it's banned from operating in that country.

                    Keeping in with the NSA is fine with Apple - right upto the point where it is banned in the BRIC economies. Remember the US had no political power over most of these countries, unlike Britain or Ireland. It can hardly threaten a boycott of China or to invade Russia !

                  2. Daniel B.
                    Happy

                    Laws on citizen data @Chris W

                    I've worked for a certain bank that has branches all over Latin America. One of such branches is Venezuela.

                    That oh-so-unloved president passed a law quite a couple of years ago (2005? 2006?) stating that any bank information or whatever should never, ever be stored outside Venezuela. At all. The bank then initiated a titanic effort to move all the Venezuela branch stuff back into Venezuela, thus complying with the law in a timeframe that was within 12 months.

                    So yes, it can be done, it just depends on how big the balls of the country's government are. In Venezuela, it was either complying with the law or face expropriation.

            2. oldcoder

              Uptime obviously.

              Most countries are not large enough to support two such server systems.

              If a problem with either communications, power, or other occurs in Ireland, it will more likely affect any OTHER servers ALSO maintained in Ireland.

              In the US, it is possible to have that backup server in different sections of the country - which have separate power, communications, and other infrastructure needed for operation.

              Brazil is large enough (geographically) for two, but not necessarily economically large enough.

              The same goes for the EU, but there it is more the varying tax rates that make things uneconomical.

              1. Anonymous Coward
                Anonymous Coward

                depends

                You are making a lot of assumptions.

                In Europe, for instance, I believe the banks like at least 150 Km. between primary and DR for data; that is a bit tricky for some areas, such as Switzerland with strict laws about confidential data not being beyond its boundaries (meaning that a German contractor, living just across the border in, say Konstanz, can not work from home, even if the office is just a couple of km away).

                As for the USA: particular problems, such as the near certainty of a disturbing earthquake affecting California or the storms and fires that seem to cause dramatic news reports about that region several times a year. Belgium or UK, for instance, may have fewer concerns in this area. In the latter, countries.

                Do not fall for the "one size fits all" scare-mongering and consider that different risks are mitigated by different strategies. They do not all require mirroring to other countries nor even widely separated parts of the same country. It can even be that the ability to use a short term, rented system loaded from portable, offline storage (i.e. back-up copies kept off site) is enough and there are firms ranging from IBM to small business offering this (at one large, international bank, I used to take part in exercises using exactly this scenario).

            3. Rob73!
              Big Brother

              I''m not sure that storing data locally will help. the Snowden slides suggest and I think the NSA have allued to the fact that most internet traffic is routed through the Land of the Free (Irony intended) before it is stored. So having a local storage farm is utterly irrelevant. This is how the NSA,etc can data slurp on such a level.

              Effectively it sounds like Brazil wants a contry wide Intranet. Nice idea, but unwaorkable in the digital age i'm afraid.

              Big Brother, obvs.

              1. Gordon861

                I think the reason demanding local hosting of the data might work is because this way if it is found that the data is being shared with the NSA or other agency then the local company can be sued/prosecuted into oblivion locally.

              2. DarkWalker

                A few caveats, though:

                - With data from Brazilian people stored in Brazil, the internet traffic from creating and accessing that data won't leave the country. No way for the US-based NSA infrastructure to intercept something that doesn't enter the US.

                - The US/NSA could start collecting data in Brazil itself, but that would require judicial oversight from Brazilian courts in order to be legally done, otherwise the involved persons in Brazil itself could get jail time if caught.

                - Not mentioned in the article, but Brazil is also looking at laying underwater cables to EU and Africa, which would make internet traffic to those places, and perhaps also for a large part of Asia, bypass the US.

              3. James Micallef Silver badge
                Thumb Up

                True - the way Brazil is proposing it would not work. What they need to do is to support and promote their own start-ups and established companies, and aggressively market the idea that local companies only hold data locally and that the NSA will not be able to slurp their data*

                I recommend the same for EU users - change email, search etc providers so as much as possible, their data is kept out of US hands. It won't be perfect, since routing** can happen through the US and users might want to access some sites / services based in the US, but it's posible to minimise data flowing there.

                * of course, assuming that Brazilian internal security doesn't snaffle that data as well

                **I'm not enough of an expert to be 100% sure, bit could routers be able to identify whether the final destination of a packet is in the US, and if not, preferentially route the packet through a non-US router? If so, Brazil, the EU could mandate that all new routers have this by default. And other countries will anyway start building cables and connectivity between themselves that exclude the US until the internet becomes a lot more like the mesh network it's supposed to be instead of most connections passing through US

                1. Matt Bryant Silver badge
                  FAIL

                  Re: Jimbo Missing-a-clue

                  ".....What they need to do is to support and promote their own start-ups and established companies, and aggressively market the idea that local companies only hold data locally and that the NSA will not be able to slurp their data*...." LOL, but you really missed the bleedin' obvious with that one - there already ARE plenty of local options, even local search companies, but people ignore them and go to Google, Bing and Yahoo. Why? Because going to Google and co is faster and gives better returns on every search. Do you even know any search engines other than Yahoo, Google and Bing? Even if the Brazilians make their own equivalents, Brazilians will still be bypassing it and going to www.google.com, www.bing.com, and www.yahoo.com, and their data will go through US servers. Same goes for email services, and searches on Faecesbook, etc. This is just more feel-good popularist political soundbites, nothing more.

          2. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Doesn't Matter

            Chris W, I think that's what the law is attempting to address... i.e. "data of Brazilian citizens will be held only in Brazil, not elsewhere".

            Brazil has a history of playing tit-for-tat with the US (one of the few countries that will). When the US started fingerprinting foreign citizens on arrival in the US, Brazil famously did the same with American citizens, but with ink, not fingerprint scanners.

            There's a case where one American citizen got the hump and was told in no uncertain terms that he was welcome to get back on the next flight back to the US if he didn't like it, since that's what his own government does to Brazilians.

            Nice to see Brazil bite back. Our luvvies in Whitehall are too chicken to.

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: Doesn't Matter @SP

              >"data of Brazilian citizens will be held only in Brazil, not elsewhere"

              Which is why I said they would need a "closed completely wire based system", in which case they wouldn't need unworkable laws. By the very nature of the internet you have no real idea of where any data is passing but I'd hazard a guess that anything that goes through a US controlled satellite is slurped.

              1. Tom 13

                Re: anything that goes through a US controlled satellite is slurped.

                You were doing so well at being clueful, and then you blew it: ANY data that goes through a satellite is slurped. Doesn't matter who owns it, the transmission is radio waves and we read it. It might be easier to read the data from ones we control, but we slurp everything. That was the whole reason for the NSA way back when it was an unmarked road that lead to their headquarters.

                And frankly, it doesn't matter how cleverly the Brazilians write their laws or try to build the system. Unless all of the communications are entirely internal to Brazil the point at which they interface with a non-Brazilian system is the point of intercept, either through mutually agreed monitoring or covert operations.

                Spy operations don't exist in the nice, neat, and utopian world of court law. They live in the Burkeian world: dog eat dog, no holds barred, and the only thing against the rules is losing.

                1. Anonymous Coward
                  Anonymous Coward

                  Re: anything that goes through a US controlled satellite is slurped.

                  Tom - I see your point. However I never claimed to be an expert at any of this I'm just trying to use common sense, if they can they will and if it's easier then more so. Anybody who thinks that their data is not being slurped given the opportunity by the US or indeed numerous other countries no matter what local laws say must have their heads so far up their backside they might just be called Zaphod Beeblebrox.

                2. Anonymous Coward
                  Anonymous Coward

                  Re: anything that goes through a US controlled satellite is slurped.

                  Most satellites broadcast data intended for a certain receiver via narrow spot beams, so the same frequencies can be reused over and over again, as well as limit unauthorized reception. Directv uses this for its local channels in the US, in fact, using the same transponder frequencies a dozen times across the states, using fairly wide spot beams with a diameter of a few hundred miles. Narrower beams are possible, of course, since some market areas are quite large including suburbs they err on the side of making them too large.

                  The NSA isn't going to slurp your data unless they can install a big dish pretty near the dish of the intended receiver. In some places that might not be an issue, but good luck getting such a dish up in places like Pakistan or Iran. I suppose a drone or balloon could do it, but that requires a full time presence which again would be unlikely over countries that don't like foreigners messing about in their airspace.

                  As for the idea that there's a separate copy of all data going directly to the NSA for as you say US 'controlled' satellites, I suppose that's possible, but would greatly increase the cost of the satellite to be capable of doing this. I suppose if the NSA picks up the tab for the difference a satellite Google or IBM launched might have this "feature", but they aren't going to pay an extra billion for it otherwise.

                3. Marshalltown
                  Pint

                  Re: anything that goes through a US controlled satellite is slurped.

                  "http://www.wired.com/politics/security/news/2009/04/fleetcom?currentPage=all"

                  Pretty sure the US military has been supplying satellite communications bandwidth to Brazil for years.

            2. AJames

              Re: Doesn't Matter

              I agree completely with that policy by Brazil. It's the only was to establish international respect. When Canada began requiring pre-arranged visas for visitors from Brazil, Brazil was quick to require the same for visiting Canadians. When Canada raised the price of a visa, so did Brazil. I am able to avoid the cost by using my British passport to enter Brazil, but that means I'm embarrassed whenever I arrive there shortly after some new outrage perpetrated by the British government against Brazil, such as killing an innocent Brazilian on the tube platform because he was wearing a backpack and jacket, or illegally detaining a Brazilian journalist.

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Doesn't Matter

          bigv.io is based in the UK, as are elastichosts - but why do you want a UK-based service, when the UK and USA agencies are in cahoots anyway?

  2. Steve Davies 3 Silver badge

    hmmmm....

    The will be more than a few multi-star Generals in the Pentagon thinking about starting to plan the invasion of Brazil, those 'commie bastards'.{anyone who isn't American is either a Pink Leftie or a Commie to many Americans especially in RedNeck country}

    I watched Dr Strangelove again at the weekend. Kubrick go a lot right about US Paranoia.

    1. Daniel Bower

      Re: hmmmm....

      Or a muslamic terrorist - don't forget the mulsamists. They are out to eat your children,,,

      1. nsld
        Coat

        Re: hmmmm....

        Or the balsamic terrorists they can ruin a North London dinner party. ......

      2. Paul_Murphy
        Coat

        Re: hmmmm....

        And those cursed muesliamists - eating their muesli with no regard to TLotF security (Amerika - f@~k yeh!) and you know muesli has Brazil nuts in? that's what I'm talking about.

        :-)

    2. g e

      Re: hmmmm....

      Watch 'Failsafe' too (Clooney, Keitel, et al) ;o)

    3. Paul Crawford Silver badge

      Re: Dr Strangelove

      An upvote for remembering an awesome film!

  3. Gordon Pryra

    @Facebook and @Google

    Tough,

    Thats the downside of being an American company.

    America may as well be a carbon copy of China in the way that they deal with the outside world

    For any septics reading, on the world map, the part with the words "Here be Dragons" it is actually what we call, "the rest of the world"(tm)

    With the PRISIM fun, people can no longer pretend to trust the Americans (lots of countries put up with it because of cheap cash and hand outs), the UK have also shot themselves in the foot over this with their very public (and stupid, probably illegal) slapping around of people who are close to journalists.

    Its getting to the point where money no longer talks, if companies like Facebook and Google are having problems, then they will either need to follow the local laws (for once) or make way for local companies.

    1. g e
      Holmes

      Re: @Facebook and @Google

      And before anyone says 'The Brits did that' (yes, we're looking at you, USA apologists) you really don't think the current pathetic & spineless UK govt would jump up and do that without the Whitehouse yanking their leash do you?

      1. Red Bren
        Gimp

        Re: @Facebook and @Google

        "you really don't think the current pathetic & spineless UK govt would jump up and do that without the Whitehouse yanking their leash do you?"

        What sets a good slave apart from the rest is their ability to anticipate and fulfill their master's will before they're even asked.

      2. Tom 13

        @GE

        No, actually I expect the UK government to act on the observation of one its most intelligent statesmen: it has no permanent allies, only permanent interests. To act in any way which is not in accordance with those interests is foolish - whether it be slavishly following US requests or slavishly opposing them.

    2. James Micallef Silver badge
      Happy

      Re: Chinese World Map

      Incidentally when in China I noticed that all their World Maps "broke" the globe through the Atlantic rather than through the Pacific, so the Americas are to the extreme right and Europe on the extreme left. This leaves China in the middle of the map, just as Europe is in the middle of a "European" map.

      As far as I know the US use the "European" style of World Map, possibly because they'd need to "break" the map through the middle of Asia and that's not very neat. Or more Probably because the vast majority of their maps only show the US. (I mean, be fair, their 48 states fit so nicely into a rectangular map and they don't need to mess around with projections)

      1. Irony Deficient

        Re: Chinese World Map

        James, do you remember which side of the Chinese world map holds Greenland? Yes, US world maps generally have Europe and Africa in the middle, but on my office wall is a world map using the Fuller projection, which has the Arctic Ocean in the middle, the Kerguelen Islands and Heard Island on the extreme left, and Antarctica on the extreme right.

    3. Marshalltown
      Trollface

      Re: @Facebook and @Google

      "For any septics reading, on the world map ...."

      Gotta watch them "septics" dontcha know.

  4. tempemeaty

    The US Gov Bureaucrats have chosen their course

    The US Gov bureaucrats will not listen to their own people who told them to stop. They will not listen to any people. They will not stop until they are stopped with outside military intervention now. I think it's now not a matter of if but when Putin sends in troops to stop this nonsense in the middle east and Washington once and for all.

    1. chr0m4t1c

      Re: The US Gov Bureaucrats have chosen their course

      Putin as the upholder of international human rights?

      We're in deeper do-do than I thought!

      1. Not That Andrew

        Re: The US Gov Bureaucrats have chosen their course

        I'm pretty sure it'll only stop sometime after the Chinese start exerting their economic and political muscle against the US . Hopefully the ending will be the US in political and economic chaos, rather than an exchange of thermonuclear weapons.

        1. Tom 13

          Re: Chinese start exerting their economic and political muscle against the US .

          The problem with commie bastages is that they don't respond to either of those actions. If economic muscle were going to move The Big 0, he would have already changed at least one of his other policies. But he keeps on doing the same things.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: The US Gov Bureaucrats have chosen their course

        Yet I dare say that the average, non-Oligarch Russian is less spied upon than the average Englishman.

        Which country has got the most surveillance cameras? What is this GCHQ thing? Special Branch? MI*? Met. police surveillance of witnesses? All these safety-first, precautionary raids on private citizens because some nosy parker thinks that a man walking (rambling in the countryside) with a twelve year old boy is suspicious (man and son, see report by Will Self, of his bizarre experience last week); the random seizure of cameras because some traffic warden decides that photographing some building or view is bad because of a child in the background or potential use to "terrorists".

        So it is proportionate to detain a man, without any specified grounds, under an an inapplicable law, for nine hours and seize personal property (even unopened, in its wrappers property). Oh, it's all right. He was not arrested, he just missed his flights, was frightened for a day and, despite not under arrest, was forced to answer questions under pain of imprisonment (even a person on trial for murder can not be forced to answer questions). Oh, and without the man's agreement nor any legal justification, full details were shared with a foreign power (USA). One has to ask, if the authorities had such solid grounds for the action, why not a proper arrest, witnesses, statements, investigation etc..

        Sorry, what was that about the iniquities of Putin again?

        All Britain does is copy the worst aspects of the USA and make it worse ....

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: The US Gov Bureaucrats have chosen their course

          "about the iniquities of Putin again"

          politically motivated criminal trials, with a helpful judiciary

          and that Russia has the "System for Operative Investigative Activities" which allows several state organizations to monitor telecoms including the internet. and allegedly makes ISPs house the monitoring that track all credit card transactions.

          1. Mephistro
            Devil

            Re: The US Gov Bureaucrats have chosen their course (@ AC 21st August 2013 12:05 GMT)

            "politically motivated criminal trials, with a helpful judiciary"

            "which allows several state organizations to monitor telecoms including the internet"

            Please, tell us, are you referring to Russia or to the USA? Just curious.

        2. Marshalltown

          Re: The US Gov Bureaucrats have chosen their course

          In fact, and I say this in great embarrassment, being an American, the US in general tends to lag behind but slavishly follow British trends. The result is that our anti-gun laws lag Britain's by about 50 years are catching up rapidly. We came up with the NSA after seeing how cool GCHQ worked. Cameras monitoring public areas are increasing in numbers but are still far, far behind the completeness of coverage in Britain. Random police checks are bolder now, again following Britain's lead. Indeed in Texas they have apparently taken to roadside body cavity searches in some counties, which may an innovation even by Britain's standards. I have a friend who wanted to spend time in the British Museum - having acquired a Classics degree - in the lat '90s. He was held and questioned at Heathrow for several hours - apparently because they suspected his red hair might indicate an Irish-based anti-British sympathy, which he indeed had developed by the time they let him go. In the US there is a growing movement to target people with turbans, though the majority of these are Sihks and despise Muslims. So, we may catch up yet.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: The US Gov Bureaucrats have chosen their course

      You seriously think Russia could stand against the US military, or wants to? I agree with those who say China is the only possible country who could, in a decade or two, if they decided they wanted to, but I can't see them doing so since the benefits to them are questionable.

      The only feasible scenario where the US would knuckle under to pressure would be for major countries of the world to do a trade embargo against us. It would be painful for both sides, but would result in a lot fewer deaths than Russia or China trying to fight a war against us. Hopefully we're not at the point of no return where something like that has to happen to stop our leadership from continuing to tread down the dangerous path we've been on since 9/11.

      1. little

        Re: The US Gov Bureaucrats have chosen their course

        the war is still on in Syria?

  5. Chris--S

    They can do it with profits

    I'm sure if they can develop structures to keep taxable money out of a country, proprrly motivated, their laywers can do the same to keep data at arms length.

  6. LaeMing

    It isn't like alternatives aren't available

    It isn't like there aren't alternatives to all these 'big data' companies already available. Not always as convenient as selling your life up the river to FB et.al. but still more-or-less usable.

    I killed my (already seldom-used) FB presence a few weeks ago and I'm only holding off enacting my own Diasporia* pod until I see slightly better data migration across major version upgrades, which I am quite sure is in the works.

    I switched to StartPage just today after a fellow commentard in another thread made me aware of it (been using DDG for some time on-and-off but I need images searches quite a bit in some of what I do for both fun and profit).

    ...

    Sucks to be a US-based data company today. Really, I honestly think it must!

    1. Z-Eden
      Thumb Up

      Re: It isn't like alternatives aren't available

      Just checking out https://startpage.com - interesting. Will have to give this a go. DDG is alright, a little slow and lack of image search is irritating though.

    2. Hollerith 1

      Re: It isn't like alternatives aren't available

      Have been using StartPage for a while and liking it.

  7. JimC

    I can see.this getting popular..

    Want to do business in our country?

    You have to do the data processing here for National security reasons.

    Processing data in our country?

    You must pay full national taxes on all your sales then. Try claiming you have no local presence now!

    .

    1. wowfood

      Re: I can see.this getting popular..

      I was thinking the exact same things.

  8. smudge
    Black Helicopters

    Location is indeed irrelevant

    "Microsoft already has data centres in Brazil and so sees "the location of data" issue as "irrelevant", Microsoft Brazil's director-general of legal affairs and of institutional relations, Alexandre Esper, said..."

    Bollocks!! Well, actually, he's right in a way. American company or American staff - USA PATRIOT Act applies. Doesn't matter where the data is located, so he's correct. Just not in the manner in which he intended.

    And you can certainly envisage the spooks invoking the Act to look for dirt on Greenwald and Miranda.

  9. miket82

    Be careful what you wish for

    State of Fear by Michael Crichton says it all. I'm surprised it's not on the list of prohibited books.

    1. tekgun

      Re: Be careful what you wish for

      Coming to filters soon on ISPs near you.

  10. Pascal Monett Silver badge
    Alert

    This is actually brilliant, or not

    Seeing all the hoopla brought on by Snowden and his revelations just might reshape the entire Internet landscape.

    I see a future where every country jealously guards its national communications, not letting any packet exit its borders without good reason (ie the IP address says so).

    You could even imagine, when signing up for Internet access, a question along the lines of "Do you need/intend to access international web sites ? Yes No", and if you check No, you only get access to your country's web servers (and any web server hosted in your country).

    Multinationals would then be forced to host servers in each country. More to the point, individual government spook agencies would have to use diplomatic channels if they wanted to access data on a server outside their country.

    Man, what a mess this is going to become.

  11. This post has been deleted by its author

  12. andy 45

    temperature?

    "There are a lot of datacenter-related issues already... even the temperature, which makes it expensive to run those facilities in Brazil,"

    Doesn't Google have massive server farms in the US desert?! Sounds like Mr Beers is making excuses.

    1. Mystic Megabyte
      Linux

      Re: temperature?

      A water cooled data centre?

      I seem to remember that Brazil has a largish river somewhere.

      1. Mark #255
        Happy

        Re: a largish river

        Just think, you could name your data centre after the river that cools it.

        I can't think of a single problem with that.

        Not one.

        1. LaeMing
          Go

          Re: a largish river

          And if your river-water cooling is so intense that it makes steam into the atmosphere which then condenses into find droplets. Ooooooh-boy!

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: temperature?

      I heard that Silicon Valley can get warm Summers, also some small area called "the South". India seems to be popular for IT outsourcing. Well known for its cool, temperate climate in the areas concerned.

      Now, putting your computing industry in a warm, earthquake-prone, bush-fire prone area like, oh, Silicon Valley. Must be a winner.

  13. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Musings on how to fight back against government intrusion of internet privacy

    The easy way IMHO is to decrease the Signal to Noise Ratio(SNR) better known as spam

    in the world of the internet

    Within email spam is noise and the email you want is the signal, but how to increase the noise

    in a way that it does not affect our use of the internet, but hampers those that are snooping our data,

    if we consider recent reports of NSA/GCHQ snooping it seems that for the most part they filter out noise

    in the form of bittorrents, video, audio streaming etc and go for encrypted and none encrypted messages.

    These include email, facebook post etc all of which in terms of bandwidth to the likes of the NSA/GCHQ and even the average user today, are very small, consider just how much text information is contained in a gigabyte of email(~1 hour 720p video)

    Therefore we need to only increase the noise in the encrypted section to have an adverse effect on SNR to the snoopers, but increasing the use of encryption detracts from ease of use, trying to teach ones mother how to use encryption really is a none starter.

    However we are talking about increasing noise here and not about every day communications, here are a few ideas

    1. Install bitmessage (bitmessage.org) and of course use it, if you so wish. However just installing and running the program will start the sending and receiving of encrypted traffic.

    2. When emailing or messaging friends & family the more tech savvy can attach GPG(Gnu Privacy Guard) encrypted documents, telling the receiver the attachment is just 'a security enhancement' (or whatever story you wish) and they do not need to worry about it. The security services of course have no option but to worry, it could be you are sneaking something through.

    3. Adding small GPG messages to forums posts or in emails using the same explanation as item 2, such as

    -----BEGIN PGP MESSAGE-----

    Version: GnuPG v2.0.21-beta27 (MingW32)

    hQEMA9br7so/5TliAQf/VG/SJIVabBEOHPKNNDRgU8BfCvUjkCHcauPGRNuojqLZ

    qFJURqkGAYYzplv/dCaWIXVTbfLRgc0XHTqKv1bpKEgcRacGCZvYUE86fi4tN35X

    AN4ExgBdi6av0UBPlR622UesaHEuinlxANB4yZRyQyRA5ygvA3ZZutXMs/WDI3MH

    /bo0WTjfwuwfoR6B1OedbzTifKyxXjCas2Efv3d4AzvFVnA0kKPHMbkYKrl6x3Y3

    2Gam6D3Ly+fEkC30jOCZB/U1zWbhGfMgSuLs2i7RzxPYvLERk86nj74LAYwVSAdW

    AxlhXa+qQKDHtOCSustmiHRYMwub1D3fsPZZWFCD1dKZAV8ErFwPKGkMAvveFkXO

    0HN0ra7eHe/INX3Tez2y11NoXYG8LZHvoi9ML+36X0Ql8FtzC5tbyF39OlBNq9vG

    igO+WTaQjJJ3VQIfMylnizkrjWyVtmx4+doyX4/J1n7QCWEVVHcA5KixcV1t/SjA

    QCsJiYizWauGifhh/FpTzhSgpdnIHBJRuTZpYyKIYXLGhGqiryhMLps5

    =thJT

    -----END PGP MESSAGE-----

    You could of course put anything between the Begin & End tags provided it looks correct, however be aware of monkeys typing, just in case it does get decrypted!

    Again it cannot be ignored by those snooping, though we have to be careful of forum rules and respect them.

    4. It is important to add these measures at random, do not encrypt everything, don't always attach encrypted documents or include encrypted text blocks, noise should be as random as possible with nice spikes! This also has the advantage of making it less of a burden to implement.

    To state the obvious the more people that do this the more noise is created, these are just a few examples to decrease the SNR to the snoops but have little impact upon most peoples internet usage.

    Of course there is always the danger the bad guys could use this to cover their operations, but to my mind

    this highlights the need for the state to engage its citizens in combating whatever the threat of the day is.

    We are not stupid and wish to be involved in the running of our country as is our right, however treat us as

    stupid and take away our rights and both the state and the citizens suffer. Other readers of this may have a different view, but then, that is democracy.

    1. Mystic Megabyte
      Happy

      Re: Musings on how to fight back against government intrusion of internet privacy

      And don't forget to name your all children "Edward Snowden" regardless of their gender..

    2. DarkWalker

      Re: Musings on how to fight back against government intrusion of internet privacy

      Also, if you use BitTorrent, set it to encrypted. Perhaps also help seed legitimate torrents, like Linux distros and LibreOffice installs, with the torrent client set to only accept encrypted communication. Thus, instant background encrypted traffic :)

    3. Captain DaFt

      Re: Musings on how to fight back against government intrusion of internet privacy

      Or you could join the SPAL*: http://www.crockford.com/wrrrld/anguish.html

      It'd mean that your friends would have to read your emails aloud to decipher them, but think of the fun it is just messing around with Google, NSA, et al. trying to parse meaning from the words.

      *Society for the Promotion of the Anguish Languish**

      ** Anguish Languish- An unbelievable number of English words, regardless of their usual meanings, can be substituted quite satisfactorily for others. When all the words in a given passage of English have been so replaced, the passage keeps its original meaning, but all the words have acquired new ones. A word that has received a new meaning has become a wart, and when all the words in the passage have become warts, the passage is no longer English; it's Anguish.

  14. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    trust diminished

    More and more the world distrusts the USA. To the point where nations legislate against their citizens' personal details being held on US servers. The US have really shot themselves in the foot over PRISM; I wonder if they will ever regain anyone's trust.

    1. Rob73!

      Re: trust diminished

      Short answer? No.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: trust diminished

      You misunderstand: even the American people are/have learned to distrust the American political system, so why should the rest of the world feel left out?

      If no one can stand you, even your own kind, then (if you are a politician) you must be doing something right. [/s]

  15. Don Jefe
    Mushroom

    Knobs, Arrogance and Ignorance

    It's stupid statements like from that lawyer that make people in South American despise Europeans and Americans.

    "Lack of skills and even the temperature make running data centers there expensive". The arrogance and ignorance in that statement is stunning. The dickhead probably thinks Brazil is all beaches, jungle and 12 months of Carnaval. Everyone drinks Cachaça from coconuts and all the women are topless.

    Brazil is fucking enormous and has climate zones that cover everything but arctic conditions and a massive tech industry and close integration with Japan and Japanese engineering capabilities. The Japanese respect and understand that South America isn't the forgotten, backwards jungle the gringos envision it to be.

    The Americans and Europeans have been treating them like backwards idiots since they landed there but the Japanese just trundled along and snatched that market up by not being arrogant dicks to them and now they laugh all the way to the bank. Good for them!

    1. Irony Deficient

      Brazil and Japan

      Don Jefe, Brazil also happens to be the country with the largest population of citizens of Japanese ancestry outside of Japan.

      1. Don Jefe
        Thumb Up

        Re: Brazil and Japan

        I realize that. The Japanese colonies (their term, not mine) are the pipeline for the large number of technically skilled workers there. It sure isn't the US or Europe sending and educating in matters of technical expertise. They send the CIA and Ex-Im Bank thugs to strong arm the Brazilians, and all of South America for that matter.

  16. john devoy

    I always thought of Brasil as a huge waste dump, but i'm just an uneducated gringo. I think the reason the USA is becoming despised is because they publicly preach against spying on citizens etc when China does it...then it turns out the USA is doing all the same things, just more sneakily.

    1. Don Jefe
      Unhappy

      There are some really, really shitty parts of Brazil, don't get me wrong, but it is huge! It's larger than either the US or the entire EU, so there's guaranteed to be some bad parts. However, the Americans and the Europeans have a vested interest in not educating their people about Brazil and South America in general.

      Both have a history of and currently engage in horribly shitty business practices either directly or through contractors and partners. Everyone is happy with the Western world being focused on China and their employee abuses and business practices, they don't want people looking too closely at what's going on in South America. If people knew the place wasn't a shithole and its actually inhabited by real people, of which nearly half are Caucasians, people would be horrified.

      It's really messed up. Everyone reading this has products from South America in their homes and offices, and unless you live in a data center there's probably more stuff of South American origin in your homes than there is stuff from Asia.

      The absolute worst part is that companies from the US, Britain, Italy and Germany act all high and mighty about China, where they know their effects will be limited by the government. They actively engage in keeping South American governments in a state of flux and instability because they know if the general public knew about what goes on and how much cheaper it would be to fix the situation they'd demand change. Can't have that though...

      1. Irony Deficient

        size of Brazil

        Don Jefe, Brazil is larger than the 48 contiguous US states, but Alaska makes the US larger than Brazil.

        1. Captain DaFt

          Re: size of Brazil

          " but Alaska makes the US larger than Brazil. "

          But only until it melts!

          1. Irony Deficient

            size of Alaska

            Captain DaFt, a baked Alaska would wind up covering more of the Earth’s surface than it does now — just not as thickly.

  17. Gil Grissum

    Here. There. Whatever

    As can be seen by the recent incidents involving the GCHQ and the Brazilian partner of a Gardian publication reporter, it doesn't matter where your data is kept. All you have to do is be traveling through the wrong country and the Jack Boot Squad will "detain" you for questioning.

  18. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    "Then if you add regulation that will present further obstacles, companies might end up moving their IT operations to other South American countries where the rules are not so strict."

    That's right sweetheart. That's absolutely right. And that is what they should do. Get rid of any US based corporation and establish your own entities. Better still. Nationalize them and take them over with all that juicy US information on it. See how the yanks like having their privates probed.

  19. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Faceybook squashed

    "Google and Facebook have both raised objections with the plans, according to an automated translation of a report by Agência Brasil."

    I like the plan already.

  20. AJames

    Lacks IT skills? Too hot?

    What idiotic comments by Beer. Few countries have the plentiful IT skills that Brazil has, and does he not realize that the country extends into the temperate south where it snows in the winter?

  21. rhillegas

    I recommend that you refer to David Miranda as Glenn Greenwald's husband or partner, rather than his boyfriend. When describing their relationship, Miranda consistently uses the term husband and Greenwald uses the term partner. I cannot remember any cases of the Register using the casual terms boyfriend and girlfriend to describe a marriage between straight people. Marriage equality is an important issue currently. Please do not disrespect Miranda and Greenwald's covenantal relationship.

    1. Don Jefe
      Thumb Up

      Brazil especially makes all the 'Developed Nations' look like idiots when it comes to homosexual things. They decriminalized homosexuality in the early 19th century and were largely responsible for homosexuality being removed from the official lists of diseases and disorders by taking the lead and removing it from their own lists first.

  22. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Arrogance bordering on racism methinks

    "There are a lot of datacenter-related issues already, such as the high cost of electricity, access to skills and even the temperature, which makes it expensive to run those facilities in Brazil," Bird said.

    What does he think Brazil is? It's not a giant sinkhole of dimwits with a big forest out the back. I think that anyone giving even a moment's thought to what modern Brazil is like would surely realize that none of the above were really true.

    - Electricity is cheap in the US because local pols throw money to attract data centers to their state. No reason why Brazil couldn't do the same (and, perhaps more creatively, you'd think having a bloody large river out the back might give someone some ideas about how to power or cool those servers).

    - Access to skills is a strawman since Brazil is full of talented people just like the US is. There are, no doubt, also a large number of numpties, but that's not a uniquely Brazilian feature.

    - The temperature. Really? REALLY? Because the US has such a jolly mild climate? C'mon. That is a feeble excuse.

  23. Version 1.0 Silver badge

    Note to El Reg.

    The comments here suggest several interesting avenues that El Reg could explore ... just what would be involved in setting up a local storage in any country? Given the TOR seems to be more effective at maintaining anonymity perhaps someone would like to think about building TOR into routers - a TOR box inserted between your home DSL/Cable connection would at least make things tougher to spy on than the current unencrypted methods. Failing that a router that sent everything through a VPN to an anonymizer service ... all "projects" that El Reg might find more useful than LOHAN - not that I'm knocking LOHAN but in the general scheme of things ... it's a bit fluffy.

    So folks - how about some "how to" articles?

  24. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Ha, Ha, Ha

    Da boyfriend ain't too happy and things are going to get even worse for leakers and those who conspire.

  25. Stoneshop
    FAIL

    US-centric view.

    "We have concerns with the [possible] changes, such as requiring the maintenance of data in Brazil," said Bruno Magrani, head of public policy at Facebook Brazil, according to the report. "This requirement would entail huge costs and inefficiencies in online business in the country, it will impact small and new US technology companies that want to provide services to Brazilians."

    Companies providing service to Brazilians would quite likely be located in Brazil themselves, and thus be unaffected. Just stops them from using a foreign cloud provider, but I suspect there will be sufficient local supply to satisfy that demand. For foreign companies that would be the cost of doing business in Brazil, just like it is in Switzerland.

This topic is closed for new posts.

Other stories you might like