back to article Hey mobile firms: About that Android thing... Did Google add a lockout clause?

The European Commission has asked mobile telecoms firms and manufacturers of devices to provide details of any agreements they have with Google regarding the use of the technology giant's Android operating system. A number of Google's rivals have recently complained about agreements between Google and mobile device …

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  1. g e
    Holmes

    So in other words

    Microsoft complain about Google maybe following Microsoft's own playbook.

    Perhaps they should have trademarked it.

    If they're complaining about bundled apps then I'm fairly sure the manuf's are free to remove all the default functionality if they wish, it'd be a lot easier than disentangling IE from Windows was. Perhaps 'being able to make a phone call' is anticompetitive behaviour for a mobile OS.

    Cos, yeah, IE for Android. Even if MS made it who the fuck would ever install it.

    1. Himalayaman
      Holmes

      Re: So in other words

      Yes and MS paid a lot of money in fines. Time for Google to pay up.

      1. fandom

        Re: So in other words

        Sure it's the same thing, I mean, Google make HTC and Samsung pay them for every WinPhone they ship, right?

        Really, these FaisSearch guys are getting desperate.

        1. Andrew 66

          Re: So in other words

          No, because Google don't have any software patents worth stealing...

          And, because Microsoft don't go around stealing other peoples' technology.

      2. Craigness

        Re: So in other words

        Consumers didn't choose Windows because it had IE, but it couldn't be sold without it. And, allegedly, couldn't be sold with any alternative.

        Consumers choose Android because they want Google services, but you can sell it without if you don't really want anyone to buy your stuff. And you can include your own versions of the apps even if you choose to include Google apps. It's up to the manufacturers.

        So the fact that Android usually ships with a set of high quality apps, chosen by the manufacturer, is about as relevant to the Microsoft case as Apple choosing which apps it provides on Iphones. I don't see any cases being made that Apple shouldn't be allowed to do it wants with the devices it sells, even when it was the dominant monopoly.

        1. Paul 135
          Linux

          Re: So in other words

          Consumers choose Android because it currently is the only mobile platform in contention at present that does not have hardware vendor lock-in. However, it is far from perfect in that regard, and in fact, I find it frustrating that Google services are forced upon me (Google only location services, some Google only cloud storage and backup, Google search on home screen now not removable by default, Google Play app DRM, Google able to call home,etc. etc.)

          I welcome such intervention from the EU as it may help flag a lot of the Google BS about Android being "open" while simultaneously introducing increasingly insidious proprietary elements. Then there is the fact that Google does not permit partners to let consumers have a choice on whether to include Google apps and Google-approvred versions of Android or not, as it's either all in or all out (as Acer learnt to its dismay).

          1. Rob Beard
            FAIL

            Re: So in other words

            Um...

            Google search on the home screen? What phone do you have?

            My Galaxy S3 hasn't got any search on the home screen, I've got the Amazon App Store installed, I have Dropbox for cloud storage (including some automatic upload thing set to it uploads photos that I take to Dropbox, well assuming I have enough storage)... all this on a non-rooted phone too (I've got one of the Galaxy S3's with the slightly dodgy eMMC, and I want to send it back without any warranty issues when it eventually dies and I understand that rooting it sets a flag, and I can't be bothered with the hassle of resetting that).

            By the way, I don't see an option of Google or Yahoo search or any other app stores on my daughter's old Windows Phone 7.5 handset (Nokia Lumia 710).

            Rob

        2. Mark .

          Re: So in other words

          "I don't see any cases being made that Apple shouldn't be allowed to do it wants with the devices it sells, even when it was the dominant monopoly."

          When was that, exactly?

        3. Aitor 1

          Re: So in other words

          You nailed it.

          You can ship Android with Mozilla or whatever you like.. as long as you have the basic android apps.

        4. Dave 15

          Re: So in other words

          You are right, Apple ships with what Apple wants and thats tough shit on everyone else, and indeed it controls the only way you have of putting a competitive product on its phone - so you're really stuffed good and proper.

          But, Apple having a dominant monopoly? When? In the early days there were plenty of Symbian competitor phones - and damned good ones at that - pity that the BBC trashed them, then Nokia's new CEO trashed it... after getting the EU to stump up a pile of our cash so he could ensure that his trashing it would clear the path for Microsoft.... despite the failure of the policy costing Nokia very dear - and probably in due course destroying what is left of the company.

        5. Snake Silver badge

          Re: So in other words

          "Consumers choose Android because they want Google services..."

          No. I certainly did NOT choose Android because I want Google services; in fact, I do not use Google services on my phone at all. I have no data entered into any Google service in the phone (for example my phonebook is saved to the phone only, not to a Google account, and then I sync with my laptop via MyPhoneExplorer) and all Google sync services are deactivated (yes, that does include the location services).

          I bought Android because I didn't see much of a CHOICE - there were only two significant players in the market when I purchased, Apple and Google, and I had to pick the lesser of two evils. And that is the choice I believe a lot of people are making. It is not "I want Google", it is "Do I go with Apple or [other]?" For most people, "[other]" is most likely Google because they are the only other mobile OS with significant support.

          This is a small but significant difference: one type of choice is 'positive' and based upon actively choosing a product while the other choice is 'negative', deciding you DON'T want a certain product but being forced to purchase the other due to the market reality of only have 2 major players to choose from. The same choice is there if you decide to buy a gaming console - XBox or PlayStation. You can make a 'positive' choice and say "I want ________" or be forced into your purchase only because you said (to yourself) "I DON'T want 'X" so I guess [my only choice is] 'Y'"

          1. Craigness

            Re: So in other words

            Snake, if you don't want your data made available to your OS maker then the only choice is Android, which is another reason this investigation is BS. But I suspect you're in a tiny minority.

            1. Snake Silver badge

              Re: So in other words

              @Craigness:

              Indeed. And there's the joke of it. To merge two news stories:

              People are throwing out personal information by the bucket load and have no qualms with it...as long as (a) it is to a private entity and (b) if it gives them some level of convenience. And then get their knickers into a bunch when this same information gets into someone else's hands. Like their government.

              [cue Apple theme] There's a Benjamin Franklin quote for that.

              Ironically, WinMo didn't collect any information on you at all. Sometimes I feel I should have stayed with the WinMob crowd, at least you know who is doing what behind your back.

    2. g e

      Re: So in other words

      Thinking about it, do Windows Phones give you a browser choice screen...?

      1. The Original Steve

        Re: So in other words

        Do they have an overwhelming majority market share which would therefore lead to a monopoly?

        1. Tom 35

          Re: So in other words

          "Do they have an overwhelming majority market share"

          So it's OK for them to lock you to IE, Skydrive, and other MS services. But Google is evil for including Google services but letting you use what you want. I have Firefox on my phone, I use dropbox too.

          Crapsearch can get stuffed.

    3. Richard Jones 1

      Re: So in other words

      If I was looking for a portable pocket communicator, I would want something that included only what I needed and wanted and none of the cruft that they normally have. So fobbing me off with 'neverheardofthem.search.com', 'backsidebook.com', 'thewoundedbullsgreatesthits.com', etc is of no use to me. I did get a phone complete with a series of bookmarks - none of which are any use, none of which enhance my 'experience' and the useless device sits in a rack, unused, unloved (and not an Android machine). Perhaps Android would have been better, but not if it is forced to get clutter from a range of useless junk companies I've never heard of.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: So in other words

        'backsidebook.com' -sounds like a porn search engine

    4. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: So in other words

      IE For Android? I'd install it in a heartbeat and use it around OS zealots like Eadon.

    5. Aitor 1

      Re: So in other words

      No, they can't remove google services or change them.

      You have to either include them all as they are are where they are, or not include them at all, and have a "fork" of Android (you won't be able to sell it as Android, just "Android based").

    6. BillG
      WTF?

      Re: So in other words

      Actually the complaints are about Google Wallet. See, if you want to pay for anything from Google Play, you are now FORCED to sign up for and associate your mobile account with Google Wallet..

      Funny, the words Google Wallet are in a very faint off-white that's almost unreadable, so you don't even know what you're doing until it's too late.

      1. monkeyfish

        Re: So in other words

        See, if you want to pay for anything from Google Play, you are now FORCED to sign up for and associate your mobile account with Google Wallet..

        Or you could just buy a £10 play store voucher, and put a small amount of credit on Wallet, and not actually give them your credit card details.

        The only problem I have with Android is the cruft of apps that HTC installed and wont let me delete without invalidating my warranty in some way.

  2. ukgnome
    Trollface

    Oh, this old chestnut

    Maybe Ford should be investigated because I can't have a Mercedes engine in my Focus.

    1. Loggie

      Re: Oh, this old chestnut

      Actually you can. Do it yourself.

      That's like saying Microsoft should sue Apple because Apple don't sell it's devices with Windows pre-installed are as an option and that Apple should also sue Microsoft because Microsoft doesn't sell it's shit either.

      1. Babbit55

        Re: Oh, this old chestnut

        @Loggie,

        You mean like you can with Android?

    2. Dave 15

      Re: Oh, this old chestnut

      Wouldn't be too sure... the manufacturers tend to share engines, gearboxes etc etc etc around these days.

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Oh, this old chestnut

      I had a Merc engine in my Mitsubishi, and in fact it came with a choice of engines.

  3. Thomas 6
    Big Brother

    Google apps optional

    The manufacturers are able to use Android without using any of the Google apps and plenty of devices do run Android without them.

    All Google specify is that if you want to use their apps then you have to meet certain criteria.

    1. HollyHopDrive

      Re: Google apps optional

      And there are plenty of cheap tablets and phones which prove that principle.

      But I suspect what they are saying is that lets say a company caled "MotoSung" agree to make a Nexus 4.5 can they also make a windows phone or even their own "phone OSX". Do Google put pressure on them to not allow it, or now allow the same promotion/discount oportunities. That would be abusive I guess.

      However, lets just make a point here - How many android phones do nokia make? (shame, cos I always liked nokia kit!)

      Just my 2p's worth - Nuff said.

      1. MrXavia

        Re: Google apps optional

        Samsung make phones with their own os (Bada if i recall correctly), Windows & android..

        So are google forcing them to NOT make phones with another OS? i don't think so..

        Although I actually would LOVE a NON-US based smart phone OS to become popular... I would actually like an UK/EU based OS, maybe even an UK based phone manufacturer!

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Google apps optional

          " I would actually like an UK/EU based OS, maybe even an UK based phone manufacturer!"

          Well, we had an EU based OS. But the Finns managed to fuck it up to the point that they had to import Elop. The crimes (or not) of Elop are irrelevant here, and the point is that Nokia had the software, and made a complete mess. Even without Elop it's unlikely they would have recovered the situation.

          As for UK (or even EU) manufacture, the EU has long since regulated itself out of the IT production and assembly markets. If you wanted UK design, there was Sendo, bought and wasted by the idiots of Motorola, albeit predating the smartphone era, Ericsson made great little phones, Siemens had some interesting stuff etc.

          We had the choice of buying European, the problem is that when the money went on the table people didn't choose Nokia, Siemens, Sendo, or Ericsson.

        2. Andrew 66

          Re: Google apps optional

          Yes, but they make way fewer than they do Android phones - that's the point...

          1. Craigness

            Re: Google apps optional

            They make way fewer non-Android phones because people want Android. Have you ever gone into a phone shop and been told they're out of stock of Windows phones?

            1. Eponymous Cowherd
              Thumb Up

              Re: Google apps optional

              "Have you ever gone into a phone shop and been told they're out of stock of Windows phones?"

              Quite.

              Vodafone are currently trying to ram Windows phones at me as an "upgrade" from my 2 year old HTC Sensation. Now why would they be doing that? Can't shift them? Being paid to push them? Or a combination of both?

              1. Mark .

                Re: Google apps optional

                Gosh yes, because I've never ever seen a network operator try to advertise or push any other type of phone.

                (Seriously - you'll hear or see a mention of an Apple product tens of times a day whether on TV or in the shops, but when MS dare to do marketing, it's seen as desperate.)

                1. monkeyfish

                  Re: Google apps optional

                  (Seriously - you'll hear or see a mention of an Apple product tens of times a day whether on TV or in the shops, but when MS dare to do marketing, it's seen as desperate.)

                  MS advertising is seen as desperate because it's awful. Apple ads are also awful. The "more people listen to music/take photos with an iphone" ads are the worst. Seriously? You have no more features? It can play music/take photos? Wow.

                  1. Kristian Walsh Silver badge

                    "more people listen to music/take photos with an iphone"

                    I heard one of those ads and couldn't help but notice that the sentence is incomplete, because they want to imply something they can't legally claim.

                    What they want you to think is " ... than anything else", but that's not true, so they omit it and leave you to think they've said it instead.

                    What they have actually said, though, is worthless as a recommendation. Yes, "every day more photos are taken with the iPhone", but this will remain true unless everyone who has an iPhone suddenly stops using it forever. It's also true if you substitute any device for "iPhone", even obsolete products whose user-base is declining. Try it with "Box Brownie"...

                    1. Anonymous Coward
                      Anonymous Coward

                      Re: "more people listen to music/take photos with an iphone"

                      I haven't seen the music one but the photos one does provide a source at the bottom of the screen. More people use iphones than any other camera... on flickr

            2. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: Google apps optional

              Yes, I went into the Vodafone shop just before Christmas to try to get a Nokia 820, they didn't have any. When I asked they said that the 7.x phones didn't sell that well, so they were going to wait until after Christmas to sell the wp8 phones. The guy I spoke to wasn't particularly impressed when I asked him if missing the peak trading time of year would be beneficial for sales.

              I didn't follow up with "WTF? You're knowningly selling obsolete hardware because you overstocked?!"

              Guess who I no longer have a contract with?

          2. Eponymous Cowherd
            Thumb Down

            Re: Google apps optional

            Andrew 66:"Yes, but they make way fewer than they do Android phones - that's the point...

            And, obviously, this is because of Google's anti-competitive practices rather than Android being more popular?

            The EC might be better off asking why Nokia is locked to Windows Phone. It certainly doesn't make good business sense for them to put all of their eggs in that particular basket unless they are contractually obliged to.

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: Google apps optional

              Nokia isn't locked to Windows Phone, they have other OSes, just not Android.

              But, you know why spoil a good Pro Google/Anti MS rant. It's not going to be long before the tide of opinion will turn against Google, probably in exactly the same way it did against MS. They'll probably end up being sued by their government in some way and then return a rather more humble company, who people will bitterly slag off for years to come.

              1. Eponymous Cowherd

                Re: Google apps optional

                "Nokia isn't locked to Windows Phone, they have other OSes, just not Android.

                I know that, but Symbian is being relegated to "feature" phones, and they kicked MeeGo into the long grass.

                There are 4 major "smartphone" operating systems. iOS, Android, Windows Phone and BalckberryOS. Of those, two are available for 3rd party manufacturers, Windows and Android. Samsung and HTC use both. Nokia only uses Windows. Why?

                I would imagine that a Nokia Android handset would sell well, probably better than their Windows phones, so why don't they produce one?

                1. Dave 15

                  Re: Google apps optional

                  Symbian is NOT used anymore, you can still get the 808 pureview and a few of the last of the smartphones, it is not, repeat nto being used in any 'feature phones'. S40 is still used in feature phones. The last few UI's made the two look very similar but the S40 will not run Symbian applications - the 808 pureview, n8 etc. will.

                  Nokia were creating a linux phone (by the strange method of cutting down an android software stack and replacing the UI... strange I know) but that was canned last year (when the last massive wave of redundancies were announced).

                  Nokia has just two OS - windows (which it is using increasingly on lower end devices in a vain attempt to get some numbers) and S40 which it has on occasion dubbed a 'smartphone' in order to make its numbers look slightly less pathetic than they would otherwise be. It has nothing else, nor anything else up its corporate sleeve.

                  Elop is a one track pony - a lame half dead one going the wrong way on a street leading to the desert and an ocean to drown in, but he is just that - one track. I daresay that having persuaded the EU to fund Nokia's purchase of Symbian and its subsequent destruction (by himself) he will end up a bloody site better off than you or me when Nokia eventually dies.

                  1. UkForest
                    Boffin

                    Re: Google apps optional

                    I'm going to be a pain, but isn't it a one "trick" pony?!

                2. fandom

                  Re: Google apps optional

                  "I would imagine that a Nokia Android handset would sell well, probably better than their Windows phones, so why don't they produce one?"

                  Because Microsoft is giving them billions not to

                  1. Kristian Walsh Silver badge

                    Nokia, WIndows and Android

                    This case is about bundling and abuse of market position. Google Search is not a requirement for Google's Calendar or App Store to work, but licensees are forbidden from replacing it (you can put something else on the phone as an app, but you can't replace it). In the same way, Internet Explorer was not essential to running the Windows OS, and yet licensees were forbidden from replacing it. Microsoft's sins don't become virtues just because it's Google committing them.

                    Nice to see the everlasting "Nokia should have used Android" comment is still doing the rounds. Actually, Nokia's negotiations with Google back in 2010 are illuminating for this case, even though they didn't involve search.

                    Contrary to some conspiracy theorists, Nokia did negotiate with Google before dumping Symbian. During these negotiations, Google made it very clear that Nokia could adopt Android (or more correctly, join the Open Handset Alliance), but what Nokia could not do was use their own mapping and navigation service in place of Google's. (Same for Nokia Music, which is at similar level as Google's music store, and had cost a lot of money to set up, and was generating good revenues)

                    They could of course just port Android to their hardware without OHA membership, but if they wanted to go their own way like this, they would be barred from access to Gmail, Google Calendar and what is now the Play Store: they'd have ended up with all the downsides of Android and none of the benefits, plus the extra costs of duplicating Google's services (as Ovi showed, this was exactly what they wanted to avoid).

                    As a "concession", Google offered to buy Nokia's mapping and location division from them. That would not only have been a bad deal for Nokia, but would have sucked for consumers, as Navteq/Nokia is Google's largest competitor in mapping software.

                    In contrast, when Nokia went to Microsoft (already a Navteq customer, incidentally), MS were prepared to concede the mapping, allow Nokia to add their own services to the OS package, and MS offered discounted licences and marketing support.

                    That's why Nokia did not, and will not, make an Android phone. Google's terms gave Nokia very little value.

                    You can look at their choice of Microsoft as bribery, or even betrayal if you're the sort of person who emotionally invests in legal constructs, but it's nothing of the sort. Nokia's purpose is to do what is best for Nokia's shareholders. Just as Google's only purpose is to do what is best for Google's shareholders, and Microsoft's purpose is to do what is best for Microsoft's shareholders. In this case, Microsoft and Nokia were able to create an arrangement that benefited both; Google's offer benefited only Google.

                    1. Richard Plinston

                      Re: Nokia, WIndows and Android

                      > [Android] licensees are forbidden from replacing it (you can put something else on the phone as an app, but you can't replace it). In the same way, Internet Explorer was not essential to running the Windows OS, and yet licensees were forbidden from replacing it.

                      Windows OEMs _were_ forbidden to add another browser.

                      > Microsoft and Nokia were able to create an arrangement that benefited both;

                      It seems to have benefited neither. Nokia smartphone division is running at a loss and WP7/8 has not driven Apple into bankruptcy yet.

                      Another option that Nokia had was to follow the N9 with more of the same, complete Metemi for lower cost phones and possibly add Dalvik to both (as Blueberry has done).

                3. Mark .

                  Re: Google apps optional

                  Symbian phones will cease production in a few months, and certainly won't be remaining, "feature" phone or otherwise. It's S40 that they use for their "feature" phones. There is also their new Asha low end smartphone platform (which has outsold Nokia WP sales in some quarters, I believe).

                  "Nokia only uses Windows. Why?"

                  I don't know, and nor do you. The "evil" thing that MS were meant to have done years and years ago would be enforcing conditions against other OSs as a requirement for licensing Windows - because not being able to sell Windows PCs would be a problem.

                  But then the very mention of HTC and Samsung proves your point wrong - it can't be due to any dodgy licence requirements, as why doesn't it apply to HTC and Samsung? And even if MS picked on Nokia, if it was really true they'd do better with Android, why wouldn't they just do that, if MS told them they had to choose between them?

                  Now, it may be that there is some other kind of agreement, perhaps involving money, but that's no longer "evil", that's a choice between two companies to form an alliance.

                  Other possibilities are that they don't have the resources to make two sets of high end phones on different platforms (even though Android is free and they could reuse similar hardware, they'd still need to port their applications, then there's testing, distribution, support, marketing...)

              2. Richard Plinston

                Re: Google apps optional

                > Nokia isn't locked to Windows Phone, they have other OSes, just not Android.

                They have considerably fewer OSes after Microsoft paid them a billion dollars:

                Maemo, Meego, Meltemi are gone. Symbian was strangled and but for the 808 has been killed. The only survivor is S40 in the Asha range and probably only because it is really a 'featurephone' rather than a 'smartphone' so can avoid the contractural killing by MS yet it boosts the 'smartphone' sales numbers so people think that WP8 is selling better than it really is.

            2. Dave 15

              Re: Google apps optional

              I doubt there is any written contract - none of the forked tongue folk at the top of Microsoft or Nokia are quite that dumb. BUT they are all chums on the same golf course... as normal, not what you know but who you know,.

        3. VinceH
          Happy

          Re: Google apps optional

          " I would actually like an UK/EU based OS, maybe even an UK based phone manufacturer!"

          What a pity this article (and therefore comment) came appeared on the wrong date to make this link timely. Oh well.

        4. Dave 15

          Re: Google apps optional

          Symbian was a UK smartphone OS - created from psion software and its epoc32 OS and the input of a number of companies. At one point you could get a Sendo (British company based in Birmingham) with Symbian (with Nokia's S60 UI) - so you could get exactly what you wanted.

          Unfortunately the Apple loving BBC and Rory 'Apple' jones did such a good advertising job for Apple that they had a heavy part in the damage to Symbian and Nokia that left it all wide open to the intrusion of the idiot Elop who then persuaded the EU to give him the funds to buy Symbian and destroy it totally in favour of his American chums... oh well - when history is written the Americans will once again take full credit for a British invention and no one will question it.

        5. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Google apps optional

          The word "popular" may not be appropriate here, but you do know that RIM, the makers of BlackBerry, are based in Canada? What's more, in the last year their product releases have focussed on Canada/UK ahead of the US.

          The CPU and, I think, the GPU, of many modern phones are designed in Cambridge, UK.

          Since Microsoft acquired Nokia, and my N900 became U/S, I've had a choice of...BlackBerry or BlackBerry. Jolla would have involved waiting too long, I'm afraid. But I hope they succeed.

      2. Mark .

        Re: Google apps optional

        I don't get that point - if you mean that Nokia don't make Android phones because they make WP ones, and MS put "pressure" on them, the obvious counter examples are Samsung and HTC, who happily do WP and Android.

        (Also with Samsung and Acer making Chromebooks as well as Windows laptops, I think the idea that companies are prevented from releasing alternative OSs no longer seems to be true.)

  4. knarf

    Animal Farm?

    Isn't this just like a Orwellian fairy tale, Microsoft was dubbed as "evil" and got a lot of hate from a lot of people because of alleged bad practice. So we users replaced them with new masters that stated "do no evil" which seemed to have turned out worse than the previous lot.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      @knarf - Re: Animal Farm?

      Alleged bad practice ? Are you serious ? At least one major court of justice on each continent has ruled against Microsoft and you use the word alleged ? Go read some court documents from Comes vs. Microsoft and come back here to tell us about it.

      1. El Andy

        Re: @knarf - Animal Farm?

        Yes Microsoft did bad things in the past. Now Google are doing pretty much exactly the same. The tragic thing is all the Microsoft haters jumping in to defend Google as if they were somehow incapable of doing wrong. I wonder how many of them will still be doing so when Google are inevitably found to be just as guilty as Microsoft were.

  5. MrXavia
    Facepalm

    Shocker google apps prominent on most Android devices, google as default search engine and google play as default apps... in other news, Windows Mobile has Bing as a search engine and uses Microsoft's app store...

    The great thing with Android is you can choose your own apps for default EVEN the dialer!

    And there are other app stores....

    The only thing that might be a good idea would be to allow easier disabling of pre installed apps, the process now to hide the pre-installed garbage is a bit fiddly...

    1. fandom

      You have a point there, being able to uninstall Facebook's apps would be great.

      But, somehow, I don't think Google would object to that.

      1. MrXavia
        Thumb Up

        You can disable them.. well I do it all the time...

        Settings->Application Manager->All

        Select what you want to disable., Force stop then disable (you may have to un-install updates first)

        While its not really deleting the app, it means you can stop it running and wasting battery!

        I don't object to Facebook apps, but I object to its pervasiveness, I like control and the app removes a lot of control, no sorry I don't want it to mess with my contacts thank you, I let google do that ;-)

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Thanks for that, Facebook now completely removed. I'm new to these fancy handheld computers. I refuse to call them by a name that's entirely to do with marketing to make stupid people think they're "smart" because they've got one. Besides, mine's a Sony, so really it's an awfully clever phone :)

          1. Skrrp
            Thumb Up

            Yeah, I found this trick last night.

            Force close, disable, uninstall, really uninstall (yes, I mean it), go back in, disable again then clear data. Ends up with no icon for the app in the tray and 0 memory use on the phone.

            Managed to clear all of the vendor crapware (Facebook, Twitter, Dropbox, etc) from my new phone and cleared up 500MB of app memory.

            I would also highly recommend rooting your phone to get Ad Block Plus on there, no ads on the phone means a quicker data connection and less data usage.

  6. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Pretty sure the Fairsearch stakeholders should be spending more time putting their own houses in order rather than trying to change the 'rules'

    eg:

    http://www.oracle.com/ -> 301 -> http://www.oracle.com/index.html (which is amateurish), but the sin is that they link the logo image to the redirect not the destination.

    stop whining and fix your shit

    1. Dan 55 Silver badge
      WTF?

      You forgot to include the price of fish in your post.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        GlassFish ?

  7. Joe Harrison

    They missed the obvious

    All they have to do is create their own free Android replacement which is better and therefore has massive takeup, then sit back with popcorn to watch Google's dismay.

    1. Andrew 66

      Re: They missed the obvious

      Well, clearly not if Google is limiting the ability of manufacturers to take up said alternative. That's the entire point of the EU getting involed...try reading the article next time.

      1. Tom 7

        Re: They missed the obvious

        this would be the said alternative that is driving another company into the ground because it wont sell?

        I have a feeling its not google causing the problem here,

      2. Craigness

        Re: They missed the obvious

        @Andrew

        What evidence do you have that Google has prevented Samsung from selling the Windows, Bada and Tizen phones that it sells? Or HTC from selling the Windows phones that it sells? Try using your nous next time.

      3. Richard Plinston

        Re: They missed the obvious

        > Well, clearly not if Google is limiting the ability of manufacturers to take up said alternative.

        It what way is Google limiting Samsung's ability to use Bada, WindowsPhone, or any other. It is not Google that made HTC stop selling some WP phones, it was poor sales.

  8. Anonymous Coward
    FAIL

    Android is free, and there is no obligation to bundle Google apps. There are several Android devices that don't have Google stuff on them.

    The reason there aren't that many is simply because the Google apps are really good, and why wouldn't you include them?

    That something is "too good" to allow Microsoft to compete is the real gripe here, and if the EU side with Microsoft's shill complaints arm, then consumers are the real losers in all of this.

    1. ratfox

      What about the restrictions on forks by the Open Handset Alliance?

      From what I understand, you can be a part of the alliance and sell Windows phones; however you are not allowed to sell incompatible versions of Android. As far as I know, this is the only place Google is putting restrictions on manufacturers.

      Maybe that could be seen as an attempt from Google to strong-arm the manufacturers, though not in a way that Microsoft would care about it. What do manufacturers lose if they get kicked out of the Open Handset Alliance?

      1. fuzzie

        Re: What about the restrictions on forks by the Open Handset Alliance?

        I believe that to be able to use the Android trademark/name, manufactures have to follow some rules. They have to ship with the Play store, Google search and possibly even Maps. Acer (or maybe it was Toshiba/Sharp), wanted to release an Android handset in China a year or so ago and since the Google services are very thin on the ground there, substituted Chinese equivalents. Google threatened to revoke their Android licence if they went ahead.

        Amazon's devices aren't called Android since they don't comply with the Android licence requirements. Jolla/SailfishOS and Blackberry include the Dalvik runtime and can run Android apps, but aren't "Android devices".

        1. fandom

          Re: What about the restrictions on forks by the Open Handset Alliance?

          Acer was going to release a phone with an Android fork until Google reminded that being part of the Open Handset Alliance they had agreed no to do that.

          Amazon is not a member of the Alliance so they can do that and then some.

  9. MacGyver
    Facepalm

    I don't see them bitching about Google including an APK installer in Android.

    I like choices, but there is a big difference between preventing and simply including. Google includes an App store app and a browser, ok, so my question is "What would you use to download a different App store app or browser if you have no App store or browser to use to do it?" I'm all for giving me the choice to download whatever I want, and if you want to give a browser and I can remove it if I want, then great, but I don't for one second think that it's Google's job to install competing browsers for me. I would however like to not have to root my phone just to be able to uninstall the bloatware that the vendors stuff into my phones/tablets, why don't they fix that? I know that I can install whatever browser I want so do most people, why are they catering to the soft-minded here.

    If I were Google I would tell them to get bent, and remove the browser and app store, and then charge the vendors a fee to reinstall them on there themselves (users could still d/l it for free if they could find a way to do it). "It's not included, the vendor is paying us extra to put it there."

  10. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Bollards!

    If it's a crime, then Apple, Google and Microsoft are all equally guilty. I should know. I use iOS, Android and WinPho. They all promote their own services by default.

  11. Confused Vorlon

    manufacturers have to jump through extra hoops for the google apps

    Manufacturers can take the android source and stick it on their phone.

    If they want the Google apps, then they have to meet a bunch of compatibility requirements. This requires a whole load more work by the manufacturer.

    Far from being forced to take the apps - they have to jump through extra hoops if they want to.

    I believe they have to take the whole bundle if they take anything, so MS may make an argument around that.

  12. Avatar of They
    Thumb Down

    Now I know.

    At least it explains why it is impossible to remove all that crud ware that festers on my phone, disabling it just isn't enough.

  13. Paul Shirley

    "give them prominent default placement on the phone"

    ...yet Orange seem able to prominently place their own maps,browser,app store,email and other apps on the default home screens.

    ...Sony also somehow manage to place their own app stores on the home screens.

    They seem able to do it with the full Google apps suite installed.

    Android will even give you an automatic 'ballot screen' between competing apps. So Nokia could have let users choose Nokia maps over Googles just by shipping both. Microsoft could at any time release IE for Android, coerce or pay OEMs to preinstall it and it would be offered to users.

    Seems to me it's that 'user choice' bit that worries them because users really aren't going to choose the crud most Fairsearch members churn out. Another fanciful and largely fictitious complaint from the same serial losers, desperate to hobble competition and avoid creating desirable, competitive products of their own.

  14. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    "MS paid a lot of money in fines."

    Did they? Really?

    They've been fined a small (well huge, for most purposes) fortune.

    However, for companies like MS, being fined and paying up are two entirely different things.

    Perhaps because of the ongoing appeals and glacial pace of the legal system, I have seen no reports that MS have actually paid up.

    Anyone?

  15. Henry Wertz 1 Gold badge

    But...

    But... Google doesn't require this though. I've seen "de-Googled" Android tablets aplenty and know there are phones like this too. It's Google Play/Maps/Nav/Gmail package that has these restrictions. I could see this be a bundling problem, but alternate markets, mapping apps, and mail apps do exist that vendors could use.

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