back to article Fifty, fired and fretful: Three chaps stare down CAREER MORTALITY

Donald* guessed what about to happen as soon as the meeting started, so he got in first with a question. “How much will my payout be?” And with that, a fifteen-year stint at a multinational vendor came to an end. Donald's on gardening leave. His employer was obliged to write him a handsome cheque, but his role had seen him …

COMMENTS

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  1. John Smith 19 Gold badge
    Unhappy

    "Give us 15 yrs experience but only cost like someone with 1 year."

    It's human nature to want a bargain.

    But I really wonder how delusional managers are about this?

    Then they b**ch about "Oh we can't find the skills."

    It's like some moron who plays with a working chainsaw then wonders why they are falling over.

    1. Yag
      Trollface

      "Oh we can't find the skills."

      You forgot the next part :

      "therefore, we need more cheap and easily pressured para-slaves skilled immigrant workers"

      1. John Smith 19 Gold badge
        Unhappy

        Re: "Oh we can't find the skills."

        "You forgot the next part :

        "therefore, we need more cheap and easily pressured para-slaves skilled immigrant workers""

        I think the thing that p**ses me off the most is these types have no sense of cause and effect. It's never their fault or their problem.

    2. Anonymous Coward 101

      Re: "Give us 15 yrs experience but only cost like someone with 1 year."

      "But I really wonder how delusional managers are about this?"

      Managers aren't delusional, they are playing the same game as everyone else.

    3. ecofeco Silver badge
      Meh

      Re: "Give us 15 yrs experience but only cost like someone with 1 year."

      What's to wonder?

  2. Pete 2 Silver badge

    Too crap to keep, too expensive to sack

    There's a certain "type" of individual - most often seen in ex-nationalised industries. They've been there since the year dot. Often it was their first, and only job. They started out as an apprentoid: 2 'O' levels and a budgerigar, and in the following decades rose up through the ranks to their current position: team member.

    However, in their forty years of wearing a hole in the same chair, they have amassed one single, solitary, asset: their severance package. Based on years of employment and seniority for time served, even at the statutory minimum, they are hellishly expensive to get rid of. Given how much it would cost to axe one of these old-timers, you could reduce your headcount by four or five fresh-faced newbies.

    And so they stay on. Not because they are actually any use, have any skills, or do any work. But because they are cheaper to continue paying than to fire - and salaries come from a different budget, too. They only occupy one desk (and can often be persuaded to "work" from home, so even that desk can be hot-desked to someone useful), keep their mouths shut during meetings and sometimes take the occasional phone message when you're unavailable.

    So when companies make the calculation of how to achieve the maximum headcount reduction (i.e. ruin the greatest number of peoples' lives) for the minimum amount of money, these guys are untouchable. The moral of the story: being old isn't always the path to redundancy. If you can somehow survive and stay off HR's radar, you may, just, be able to live our your twilight years doing next to nothing, being paid for it and keeping your job security.

    1. Jemma

      Re: Too crap to keep, too expensive to sack

      Or you could use the short version...

      Wally from Dilbert...

      1. Pete 2 Silver badge

        Re: Too crap to keep, too expensive to sack

        > Wally from Dilbert

        Good point. Though Wally appears to want to be kept on. He lies, cheats and deceives his incompetent boss. Whereas some TCTK-ers would quite like to be let-go (and apply for VR, but get turned down). They neither feel the need, nor have the motivation to give their bosses reasons to keep them on. Another way to look at it is that both sides (the employers and the employees) are trapped in a situation neither one wants: the company would like to get rid of the expensive but unproductive employees, the TCTK-ers would like to take early retirement or VR, but can't, or don't qualify, or get turned down - for whatever reason. Although some of the TCTK-ers realise that they are on the gravy train and quite like the prospect of doing almost nothing each day (just as if they were at home, retired) but still getting paid for it AND building up their pension pots, too.

    2. Byz
      Go

      Re: Too crap to keep, too expensive to sack

      I found myself in the severance trap, too much to walk away, but a slow lingering de-skilling death if I stayed.

      The best thing I did was get out when given the opportunity gave me a chance to re-skill.

      What was great was that in my early 40's I thought I couldn't learn the new ways of programming, however I discovered that wasn't the case and in fact the the opposite was true (I can do things I used to find hard when I was 20), what was holding me back was the MS way of doing things (at the time) but learning Java opened the curtains.

      Often it is fear and a decent salary that holds many capable people back, big companies tend to de-skill you.

    3. straitgate
      Big Brother

      Re: Too crap to keep, too expensive to sack

      Do you know where most of those "too expensive to sack" people work?

      HR

      1. Tom 13

        Re: HR

        Not at the last place that riffed me. If you could have hung a generator of that spinning door it probably would have lit up the entire East Coast. We had fewer mail clerks come through the office.

  3. jake Silver badge

    Bottom line? Pay fscking attention!

    I'm a hair over fifty.

    I completely divested my portfolio in mid-1998/mid-1999. It was obvious (to me, anyway) that the "portal" bubble was going to burst, and coupled with the Y2K paranoia, it seemed to be a good idea ...

    Most of the cash went into no-load mutuals. The rest bought my retirement ...

    Today, I'm the owner/operator of a horse ranch ... 24/7/365.25 of 0-dark-thirty to well-before-dawn, if that qualifies as "retirement" ...

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Bottom line? Keep your fscking story straight

      Jeez you're full of it. What happened to the CEO peeking network admin ?

      Too tragic for an icon ...

      1. sabroni Silver badge
        Thumb Up

        Re: Bottom line? Keep your fscking story straight

        Agreed, jake could Smug for his country.

        1. This post has been deleted by its author

        2. jake Silver badge

          @sabroni (was: Re: Bottom line? Keep your fscking story straight)

          Smug? Nah. Just matter of fact.

          On your part, ego problems? Buck up! If I can do it, you can too! :-)

      2. jake Silver badge

        @Nicho (was: Re: Bottom line? Keep your fscking story straight)

        "What happened to the CEO peeking network admin ?"

        I'm a conslutant in the IT world ... Helps pay for new water trucks.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Bottom line? Pay fscking attention!

      Also, from a previous post ... "After forty+ years of legally driving public roads (two wheels, three wheels, four wheels & on up to the set of joints that I move hay, alfalfa & straw from our place in Nevada to here in Sonoma), I've never received a citation, not even a fix-it-ticket"

      Apparently jake started legally driving before he was ten.

      1. jake Silver badge

        @AC 11:10 (was: Re: Bottom line? Pay fscking attention!)

        I'm a "hair" over 50. For largish values of "hair". I got a farm ("hardship") drivers-license when I was 14. And I was driving mopeds & scooters on public roads (legally) long before that.

        Nice to see that you're following me so closely, I'm glad I have such a positive impact on your life :-)

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Bottom line? Pay fscking attention!

        > Apparently jake started legally driving before he was ten.

        Was that before or after he taught Steve Jobs how to use a soldering iron?

        1. jake Silver badge

          @AC 12:35 (was: Re: Bottom line? Pay fscking attention!)

          Saint Steve was never any good at soldering ...

    3. Amorous Cowherder
      Pint

      Re: Bottom line? Pay fscking attention!

      Good for you, it's good to see a nice story of success in life.

      If I've learned one thing in life, nothing is certain. Life has more curved balls than a Yankees game. Balance is the key to life, save and invest, make a nest egg but not so much that you don't enjoy life and suffer in the hopes of reaching a goal that may never come. My Mum and Dad worked their arses off for years, got themselves some good pensions. My Mum retired when she was 60 and my Dad when we was 62. 18 months later my Mum tripped, broke her leg, blood clot to the brain and dead inside 12 hours. My Dad utterly devastated with the loss of my Mum, all the retirement plans gone in an instant, they had so little time to enjoy their retirement.

      Life is like that...

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        'Life has more curved balls than'....

        A well made understated point. There's many threads here talking about saving for retirement but the reality is not everyone will make it. There's risk at both ends of the spectrum. So its important to try and 'live' today too during your work years. That's easier said than done, but clearly debt is a limiting factor. In the US, I feel debt is a form of slavery. Particularly student debt as it can't be written off.

        I have tried to live because my old man had a massive heart attack at fifty and even though he scraped to his late sixties he was never the same. He could never travel for instance. He had visit to doctors weekly with frequent invasive procedures interrupting his quality of life. He had a comfortable nest egg, but didn't get to enjoy it. My mum has the next egg now, but without my Dad there's no real enjoyment for her. What's that phrase, youth is wasted on the young, money wasted on the old....

        Sometimes all you can do is learn from others. I took a page out of my dad's book by marrying travel with work. I'm probably at risk too. So I'm not waiting for that rainy day that might never arrive to do things like travelling the world. There's also plenty of lucrative Expat work if you can find it. which isn't easy by the way. But its there for all ages, because immersing yourself in different cultures and not being home sick takes a certain maturity and specific type of person. So that's an option if work in the domestic market is too tricky to come by.... This applies even if you're married because you may have to leave your family for 6 months every other year but it'll pay the bills all in one go!

        Lastly be open to retiring to SE Asia or South America. Its nowhere near as scary as headlines suggest. In fact I think major US cities are the most dangerous right now. It can bring some wonderful adventures too. Moreover your pot of gold can be smaller, yet you can live very well....

    4. This post has been deleted by its author

  4. Byz
    Go

    Like it or not the industry is changing

    Those of us in our forties or above will remember the early 1990s when in offices we had a central server and PCs on our desks running VisiCalc or WordPerfect 5.1, within two years the whole landscape had changed.

    We are again at the same crossroads Desktops are out and mobile is in, due to one large firm not distributing it's software products onto other peoples tablets and bringing out a rather lame tablet they've lost control of the market (not a bad thing).

    Now you can either curse the darkness or light a candle.

    Many of the over fifties have very good programming skills that they haven't utilised for a long time, however with some training they can take advantage of this sea change as there is a real lack of mobile device programmers out there.

    Also you may feel that others have a head start, however having looked at the source code of many Apps written in the last few years they resemble the type of code seen in the late eighties (thrown together in a hurry), so the industry could benefit from the experience that the over fifties can bring. Remember that many of the young 20 somethings haven't learnt programming at school, they now learn what I did at O'level and A'level at university and even then it is in a very confined environment (I know as I did a degree recently).

    Lastly the weak value of the pound has meant that offshoring is not as cheap as it was, so gather the rose buds while you may :)

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Flame

      Re: Like it or not the industry is changing

      Don't be so rational, we urgently need 22 year-old programmers fresh from uni and with zero life experience. Folks who don't know how to properly shave. Seasoned engineers, that so 20th-century, ya know.

      1. Roland6 Silver badge

        Re: Like it or not the industry is changing

        >we urgently need 22 year-old programmers fresh from uni and with zero life experience. Folks who don't know how to properly shave.

        That was us back in the 80's!

        Certainly the company I joined just after Uni. had much in common with Data General as described by Tracey Kidder (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Soul_of_a_New_Machine ) and like the programmers at Data General, we matured into seasoned engineers and went on to do other things...

  5. Chris Miller

    "get serious about retirement savings plans"

    In his 50s, he's leaving it late. If you haven't got a defined benefit pension, current annuity rates (50% survivor, RPI linked) are about 40:1. So a million quid pot will get you a pension of £25k - hardly the lap of luxury. And the brain-dead LibDems think there should be a wealth tax on assets over a million ...

    1. Jamester
      WTF?

      Re: "get serious about retirement savings plans"

      Surely that can't be right?

      Assuming age 60 at retirement, better to just take £25k each year from the £1m for 40 years instead of buying an annuity? The growth in the remaining pot over the next 40 years should be enough to bring in a few more years should you live past 100, and to increase in line with RPI.

      If that is the rate of annuities over the next 20 years count me out!

      1. Chris Miller

        Re: "get serious about retirement savings plans"

        Sorry, but them's the rates (aged 60, as you say). You may be underestimating the effect of (say) 3% inflation, which is a doubling every 24 years. Putting it into shares may give you some capital growth (although that hasn't worked very well over the last couple of decades), but fixed interest is (of course) effectively non-existent at present. If interest rates go up, annuity rates will improve (and they get better as you age), but such a change would probably reflect an increase in inflation.

    2. Getriebe

      Re: "get serious about retirement savings plans"

      I make you right on this.

      Unless you worked for a company with Britsih in the original title, and so get an index linked final salary, you need to get saving first day out of University. And spread your investments

  6. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Hmm!

    I'm 48. Lost my job in April 2012 and haven't worked since. Have applied for (literally) hundreds of jobs. Have networked liked crazy. Have got down to the shortlist for a handful of jobs. Nothing. Savings are now dwindling fast. I reckon that I have three, maybe four months before the house will go on the market.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Hmm!

      I was just wondering if you've done the basics like changing your mortgage to interest only/contacted someone like http://www.stepchange.org/ (used to be the CCS) to make sure your only paying off debt that needs paying?

      The guy who posted below you is right - apply for anything that keeps you going....

      1. J.G.Harston Silver badge
        FAIL

        Re: Hmm!

        "have you done the basics like changing your mortgage to interest only"

        If you're unemployed, then by definition you can't get an interest-only mortgage.

        1. Corinne

          Re: Hmm!

          You may not be able to get a NEW mortgage, but your existing mortgage company should change you to interest only rather than repayment if you ask.

          And after 3 months of signing on, the Jobcentre should pay at least a fair chunk of the mortgage interest.

          1. Roland6 Silver badge

            Re: Hmm!

            >And after 3 months of signing on, the Jobcentre should pay at least a fair chunk of the mortgage interest.

            Need to be careful here, as it may be more beneficial (both in terms of time and money) to claim tax credits. Basically, your best advisor is someone from the local 'sink' estate who knows their way around the system, they will also recommend you contacting the council to try and get your council tax reduced...

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: Mortgage

              They won't give you naff all towards housing costs until you've lost your home and are roughing it on the street.

              I wrote to my MP about this and he just palmed me off with some form letter that didn't answer my questions.

              All told it seems in the UK we're better off just not trying to improve our lots and instead just stay at home and make as many brats as possible. They'll give you a free house.

    2. GreyWolf
      Holmes

      Forget getting a job...

      become a contractor. Being an employee means that the company takes all the value from your work and pays you a pittance. Being a contractor means that the value of your work remains in your control for you to choose what to do with. You can build up a cushion to pay the bills with, so you sleep well at night. When it is your own company, it can buy you a stakeholder pension and deduct the cost.. You can take your income as salary or dividends, according to your tax situation. You decide how much holiday to take and pretty much when. Best of all, you can pick and choose who you work for. You can charge the d**kheads double rate, or refuse the gig, or give notice when they behave badly, confident that there'll be another gig along in a minute.

      1. ecofeco Silver badge
        Meh

        Re: Forget getting a job...

        Most contractors I know are just barely paying the bills.

        The rest are doing great, but they are the definate minority

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Go

      Re: Hmm!

      If you can program in any major language, send your CV this way:

      http://automotive.actia.com/en/

      www.vacos.de

      http://www.rohde-schwarz.de/

      http://www.bertrandt.com/

      These companies don't pay well as compared to the inflated wages of the London Casino, but they will at least assure you that your skills are still needed. If/when they have the Casino running again, you can always move back there.

    4. Roland6 Silver badge

      Re: Hmm!

      >Savings are now dwindling fast. I reckon that I have three, maybe four months before the house will go on the market.

      Given the current UK housing market I would be tempted to get the house on the market now, rather than in the autumn when the market normally slows down. Obviously if you get a job, you can always take it off the market.

  7. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Options...

    I found myself redundant in early 2010, aged 59, and spent the rest of that year in an increasingly desperate search for employment of the same sort, and at the same level.

    What worked for me (I think) was my willingness to do something completely different (delivery driving) while continuing to job-hunt within IT. I eventually landed a contract role, and after a year or so an offer of a permanent one, at a lower level though still in the same discipline (security).

    Not sure whether this approach would work for everyone, but it has to be worth a try.

    1. hplasm
      Thumb Up

      Re: Options...

      There always seem to be jobs for fork-lift drivers. The training is cheap, and it looks like fun...

      Nearly went there when the contract market went a bit dry, once upon a time.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Fork-Lift Truck Driving

        Ah, yes; the British twist on slave labour camps, where the long term unemployed are sent in order to receive below minimum wage benefits and only for periods short enough that employment benefits and rights don't kick in. Then it's on to another employer as staff are rotated to maximise their profits while keeping wages down. And, if you should refuse to play the game; it's no benefits at all for you, sunshine.

        It's worth a try but you will probably find yourself out of pocket on training costs and unable to compete against the zero-cost labour the job centre provides.

  8. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    I went through this in 1999

    Got made redundant aged 49 7/8. Started contracting and got a decent amount of work. Paid myself a salary and lived off what was in the bank while I looked for a job.

    now I'm back being a permie again just a few weeks short of my 60th birthday. I startled my boss in the interview by telling him that I really was not looking for any career progression. Then he thought about it and smiled.

    I got the job. One of my colleagues is 66 and does not want to retire yet especially now that the law has changed.

    Hopefully this is my last job before putting my feet up. If it isn't then so-be it.

    I did plan for my retirement and put everything I could into a final salary pension inc AVC's in the good years.

  9. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    The age-old issue of age

    I'm early 50's and when I dropped the first 10 years of my career off the bottom of my CV so i appeared to be in my 40's I got approximately 3 times the interest. Even for contract positions age does seem to be a factor, with some employers thinking that anyone over 50 is just after an easy ride to retirement.

  10. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Times changing

    I've been out of a job a couple of times, most recently age 49.

    Was I "past it"? For UK recruiters I'd been 'past it' for at least 20 years: if you reach 30 without moving to a Suit you're obviously a Loser. Internet to the rescue: I can work from home for an employer in the US with a more open mind about who it employs.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Times changing

      "I can work from home for an employer in the US "

      Telecommuting to the US....? If so, good for you!

      What kind of work if you don't mind me asking?

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Times changing

        Why are we both anonymous cowards? ;)

        Software development. Specifically, cloud infrastructure to secure web servers.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Times changing

          p.s. I used to work for Sun, telecommuting to Silicon Valley. It was the Oracle takeover that left me redundant at 49. No complaints at Oracle: they treated me a whole lot better than my experience of UK employers, too.

  11. David Hicks
    Go

    I really hope...

    ...that by the time I'm 50 I'm in charge of my own destiny.

    A wise man once told me you'll never get rich working for somebody else. I'm mid 30s now and made the transition to contractor. By my mid 40s I want to be running a company, and make this sort of discussion moot.

    1. Roland6 Silver badge

      Re: I really hope...

      >By my mid 40s I want to be running a company

      A bit late perhaps - all the focus and support is for young 'entrepreneurs' ie. people in their 20's ...

      Good luck, the world and economics of IT start ups is significantly different now to what it was in the 80's.

      1. David Hicks
        Stop

        Re: I really hope...

        Yeah I'm really not interested in the various forms of support or VC capital, or becoming one of the Old Street set, or in fact anything that can be described as "Start Up".

        AFAICT anything that can be described as "Start Up" is a total, utter waste of time and money, with the caveat that if you're a "founder" it's worthwhile for you if you manage to suck some money out of angel investors or get acquired before the whole house of cards fall over.

        1. Chris Miller

          @David

          99% of the time your description of VC is spot on. The other 1% you get Amazon/Google/Apple/Microsoft/...

          1. David Hicks
            Stop

            Re: @David

            Apple started with hobbyists and mail order sales, and grew organically.

            MS started by publishing useful software and winning ever-bigger contracts with the likes of IBM.

            Google started with the only useful search engine on the net and built an advertising empire on it.

            Amazon... unsure, it has its roots in the last bubble, sure, but Bezos bootstrapped the thing himself.

            None of these pursued the current start-up hype-and-get-bought cycle.

            1. Roland6 Silver badge

              Re: @David

              The real challenge with starting up a business once you're out of your 20's is that you generally have commitments which mean that every month a significant amount of money has to be found to pay the bills, plus having the family around isn't necessary conducive to focused working...

              Obviously if you can get the business started and earning some money whilst you are employed by someone else, life is a little easier...

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: I really hope...

        « A bit late perhaps - all the focus and support is for young 'entrepreneurs' ie. people in their 20's ...

        Good luck, the world and economics of IT start ups is significantly different now to what it was in the 80's.

        »

        Yes it's a different world, but people have also changed. The focus on "young" entrepreneurs is really a focus on people who can take higher risk because they have less to lose (no house, family, other financial pressure, ...) Nowadays, that applies to people of all ages more than it used to only a decade or two ago, I would say.

    2. DJV Silver badge
      Thumb Up

      Re: I really hope...

      After being made redundant for the 4th time in my life in 2005 I decided life was trying to tell me something about working for other people. So, I went self-employed and now often have more work than I can handle!

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: I really hope...

        "So, I went self-employed "

        Can we ask is it related to what you did before? How did you transition etc....

    3. ecofeco Silver badge
      Windows

      Re: I really hope...

      "...that by the time I'm 50 I'm in charge of my own destiny."

      Ah, didn't we all. Didn't we all.

  12. Slik Fandango
    Unhappy

    It happens to so many

    I'm in IT Marketing - having moved over from being an IT Manager many years ago, and it's the same in a lot of sectors - I have friends who as IT Managers are being given their notice as things are outsourced, or downsized (do people still use that term?).

    Me I was made redundant on a weeks notice in 2009 (my contract was changed before the company was taken over) so I was pretty much over a barrel, then out of work for almost 3 years. But I kept going and did temping and minimum wage work to keep some income. Took a lot of swallowing of pride and keeping my gob shut when others around me being paid a lot more were useless at what they did.

    But I got there - still not on the money I was on before - but more survivable than minimum wage, and my CV shows that I was doing something. So to those that are in this situation - don't give up. Setup a consultancy, ask people you know, use LinkedIn, talk to agencies and get yourself known for your experience. Some companies are getting fed up of lack of experience (just loads of qualifications) so let them know about you!

  13. tentimes
    WTF?

    Aged 41 I am worried reading this

    I am currently re-learning to program having been out of the industry for years. I used to program in C and Assembler.

    My intention is to work for myself and I am already working on a couple of ideas.

    Is it just ageism? Is it really tough to pick up contract work? I have been learning Ruby on Rails, JS, Jquery, CSS etc - all web stuff. Plus have a stack of books on Android/iOS as I intend to program mobile clients for myself.

    I used to do a lot of embedded stuff and games in assembler.

    No hope for the over 40's seems to be what I am reading?

    1. Roland6 Silver badge

      Re: Aged 41 I am worried reading this

      Re: No hope for the over 40's seems to be what I am reading?

      Yes and no! I suspect that the IT industry is probably still ahead of the crowd on this.

      I would suggest that what is important is expectation setting and hence planning accordingly.

      Given the level of redundancy at circa 50, I would advise planning for it. Which given that the government is expecting us to work until we're 70 isn't a stupid idea, because effectively what you are planning for is an enforced career break (potentially spanning several years) and potentially a need to retrain so that you can do something else until you formally retire.

      Obviously, for some, circumstances will enable them to leave the plans on the shelf and have a more comfortable retirement...

    2. David Hicks

      Re: Aged 41 I am worried reading this

      If you have embedded experience you're probably golden. There always seem to be embedded contracts going.

      Write yourself up a cv stressing the embedded stuff, search for roles on the various job websites (and give them your cv and allow it to be propagated). You should be getting pissed off with agent calls in next to no time.

    3. Lallabalalla
      Go

      Re: Aged 41 I am worried reading this

      What a load of defeatist nonsense I've read here. Write one decent game on iOS and you can retire if you want to.

      1. ecofeco Silver badge
        Thumb Down

        Re: Aged 41 I am worried reading this

        "Write one decent game on iOS and you can retire if you want to."

        Define "decent".

      2. Bleu
        Trollface

        Re: Aged 41 I am worried reading this

        Wrong. Write a decent game, nobody cares. That is the iOS world. A good fart app on the other hand ...

    4. J.G.Harston Silver badge

      Re: Aged 41 I am worried reading this

      It's like what was said in the article. We know that programming is programming is programming, but HR looks for somebody with experience of driving a 2004 manual transmission Volvo Estate with one mirror held on with sellotape. The fact that you "know how to drive" and have driven Ford, Hondas, Mercs, Hyundais, Nissans, Lexuseses, etc. etc. etc, which demonstrates that you can sit down in front of anything and drive it, is irrelevant. If recruiters don't see "Dweebleblob 2014" on your CV you're in the bin.

      1. Number6

        Re: Aged 41 I am worried reading this

        That's because half the recruiters know nothing about the subject and vet CVs with a keyword-matching program. If you don't match enough then you don't get put forward, even if you're the sort that the project manager really wants.

        That's the problem with a lot of these job sites where you put up a single CV that everyone sees, very often it's necessary to look at the particular company, what they appear to be after and to rewrite your CV to match. At one time I maintained a very detailed CV which got hacked on a per-job basis down to a couple of pages that (to me) appeared to be relevant to the job for which I was applying.

  14. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    want security? learn programming ... and continue learning

    I always liked programming, but my first jobs were desktop and server maintenance. Eventually (some 20+) years back I decided I want to do programming first. So took over small development tasks my company had, when developers were focused on "bigger picture". When the company "went bad" I moved on, to a mix of administration and programming jobs. Some 10 years ago my job was purely programming. Now I find myself pestered by agents almost constantly, with good relations to the business and feel rather secure in my current role, sector (should something bad happen to employer) and expertise area (should something bad happen to sector).

    The trick is to chose the IT specialization you really like, so investing your private time into learning new things feels more like a hobby than work, while your family understands that spending time and money on books/conferences/software/etc is actually important for your career. Also, when the times come for another job interview, it really gives you an edge if you can show passion (and investment into skills) for the job you apply for. As for the sales guys - luckily I never was in such position, but it always seemed to me that the good ones are much more than salespeople, so their career does not really have to stop there.

  15. Boris the Cockroach Silver badge
    Unhappy

    Wait

    Until you're 48 and with a health problem

    You can wave good bye to getting any job offers no matter how good you are

    Boris

    <<stuck programming 1980's robots for the next 13 yrs :(

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Flame

      Re: Wait

      Why would you tell anybody about your health problems ?

      The best advice is to lie through at least two bodily openings while applying for anything. Our "leaders" lie through all of their openings all of the time. If you tell too much of the truth, they consider you a mad guy. "If the can't lie properly, he can never be one of our team".

      Too much truth is simply dumb relative to your employer.

    2. Darren Barratt
      Happy

      Re: Wait

      To be honest, health problems should not be the lead on your CV. Unless you've lost 1 or more limbs, or something equally obvious, there's no reason to trouble your prospective employer about it.

  16. haloburn
    Mushroom

    Don’t be counting on a cushy redundancy package if you happen to be a long term member of staff they want rid of. There has been a recent surge in performance management processes being introduced to specifically force a managed exit for staff to expensive to give a large redundancy package to get rid of.

    1. Darren Barratt
      Go

      Then meticulous record keeping it your friend. Also keeping note of any point where a younger/less experienced staffer is treated differently.

      1. Corinne

        Your word against theirs, and if you get really sticky there's alway compromise agreements in their armoury

        1. Number6

          Isn't a compromise agreement basically a way of extracting money from the company in return for leaving them alone? If they've screwed you, now you've screwed them back so put it behind you and enjoy the rest of your life.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Some companies find a bogus excuse to sack you then hit you with the offer of a compromise agreement at the same meeting just in case you were thinking of going to a tribunal. A couple of month's pay will cost them less than a tribunal and not harm their reputation, then they get a confidentiality clause out of it too so they can sue you if they find out you've told anyone else why you're going.

            From the employee's point of view, at least they are guaranteed a bit of a payoff plus paid notice, whereas if they fight the sacking there's a fair chance they won't win as that will come down to "he said she said" then they walk away penniless and a sacking on their record.

  17. ian 22

    Never understood Bill

    I've encountered the Bills, the "shock and anger" types. Surely they knew they were retained at the companie's pleasure. There are no guaranteed positions.

    Expect unexpected swift changes!

    1. Slik Fandango
      Coat

      Re: Never understood Bill

      At one previous place I was let go - given no reason, having just been given a glowing review and bonus. It's understandable to be shocked and angered, but as you say there are no guaranteed positions. Sometimes it would be nice to have the loyalty that the employer expects from the employee go the other way.

      In my case I eventually found out it was all about internal politics and the pending sale of the company. I wasn't the only one. We all got our coats...

  18. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    I'm over 50 and my employer is looking to ditch me

    Care to know what my line of work is? I'm in sales. I'm their top sales guy. I bring in the big contracts and the big bucks.

    But a couple of years ago that went out of style. "Sales is no longer our priority." So out with commen sence and decency, welcome company politics.

    Last year they decided their biggest problem was the bonusses they had to pay out to their salespeople. These almost, but not quite, brought our saleries up to a average level.

    Well, that problem has been solved by tying sales up in procedures and bs. Now Sales is down by 50% and the f*ckers don’t have a clue.

    At first I lost some sleep over this at first, but now I just smile a lot.

  19. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Gardening Leave.

    I was lucky: I got almost a year. The happiest year of my working life!

  20. Dramoth
    Thumb Up

    I am hitting 50 next year

    I've been working in the IT industry more or less since 1994 with a study break to get my degree in there as well. I am rapidly approaching 50 and I am finding that I am slowly getting behind in my skillset. So I am planning on spending some time when my current contract expires to do some study, maybe get some MS certifications and learn some PHP frameworks and maybe pick up an understanding of RoR as well.

    And then I will get back out into the workforce. I am not overly concerned about the whole age thing because I know that I can pick up work reasonably easy.

    1. tentimes
      Stop

      Re: I am hitting 50 next year

      Don't waste your time on PHP frameworks. You will need it all if you intend to learn RoR. I found it much, much more difficult than C++ (20 years ago for that) and it involves lots of essential ancillary skills (Javascript/Coffeescript, CSS/SASS, Ruby, HTML, HTTP/REST). It's a huge learning curve, but hopefully pretty useful.

  21. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    I wonder what comforting advice 'The Dom' would have to offer....

    ...Pickup bullet from table...Insert into 9mm semi-automatic. Put to head.... <bang>

  22. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    I wish they have taught more practical skills at school....

    ...Like starting and running a business, management skills, people skills etc . I think there are severe limits to relying on employment at companies or corporations beyond your 40's. Clooney's movie Up in the Air (2009) comes to mind... For IT guys with such a rapidly changing landscape some sort of Plan B is essential. Just look at how much tech info one needs to know now than even a decade ago....

  23. Bleu
    Trollface

    How?

    ^he interviewed one day'

    Precisely how does one interview a day?

  24. Steve Holdoway

    DIY

    All you need Is a virtual presence. Website, computer and a decent Internet connection and you're away. No more commute, work your own hours... Well, it's not that simple, but it's an alternative to throw into the mix.

    Nobody need know how old you are if you don't want them to.

  25. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    50's+? .... Designing your own job i.e. Privacy Consultant....

    I think there might be market in the above. Possibly a subset of security, but the area now firmly deserves its own branch. I can't see the big tech giants retrenching from their Ad-Driven / NSA friendly business lines anytime soon. Though its possible if enough of the masses shift away from US tech over time, then the giants might be forced to separate their companies and offer more tailored privacy and security. For instance offering Search Engines, Social Networks, or Phone and Tablet devices that do not track you whatsoever, with the cost embedded into the cost of the device or even the ISP monthly charge....

    The ISP's are missing a trick here! They could charge for a Startpage or Duckduckgo service by randomly submitting queries to search engines instead of giving the likes of google a free ride. But there needs to be a huge backlash to make this happen, and I don't see the sheeple starting a revolution until there's many more Snowden and Manning like revelations, with many more abuses flagged in the system... What we need is an Erin Brockovich / Silkwood / A Civil Action level of privacy scandal of epic proportions....

  26. OzBob
    Pint

    Go for the jobs where age is considered a virtue

    Some of my techie bosses have become former techies so went into administrative-style IT jobs (Sarbannes/Oxley, ISO Audit and Compliance, ITIL) where age is seen as "maturity" and "credibility". They now quite happily wander from contract-to-contract. Not for all but if you can communicate well and schmooze a little, well worth it.

  27. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Laid off

    Got laid off aged 39 (no redundancy, no assistance, just two weeks notice and a P45, along with the entire product design team. Oddly, just after we finished the design. Imagine that.). Finally found permanent work last year - aged 49. My background: various positions gave me lots of breadth of knowledge (as required by my various roles over the years), an ability to learn very quickly, but admittedly not much depth in many areas as I never got the chance before the technology changed again. Also I'm not a good politician. People who can "schmooze" have a definite advantage, regardless of their actual skill levels.

    Most common phrase heard: "you're overqualified". Most common insight: nobody in the I.T. organizations that I got interviews for was over 25, except the "boss", who was still under 30.

    In the 10 years of analysis that was forced upon me by this protracted period of underemployment (I got a few gigs, the usual bottom-of-the-monkey-barrel type jobs) I came to this conclusion: corporations have been smothered by HR and recruiting agencies who don't have a fucking clue what technical organizations actually need.

    All they look at is an increasing irrelevant series of buzzwords for current fads, not the ability to actually apply current knowledge, learn new stuff, or heaven forbid CREATE new buzzword technologies. I've found that the only way to find work these days, especially as one gets older, is to completely bypass anything that smells of H.R. or recruiter and talk directly to the people who actually need folks on their teams.

    Even then, it's not always going to work given the utter level of incompetence some managers have these days - people who seem to think that giving "exams" that simply require regurgitation of particular pages of Microsoft manuals is a way to find competent help. I have to laugh though, the last guy that did that was in charge of the team responsible for the 6 *day* downtime on systems that I would have considered "critical" (as in, medical monitoring systems in a rather large hospital group).

    What, me, bitter at having had the 10 supposedly "most productive" years of my life wasted by faceless drones who (in at least three cases) didn't know the difference between an operating system and a browser, but were deemed fit to judge me for a technical position? Yeah, I guess I am.

  28. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    A generation of disenfranchised software engineers

    For many years I was very successful as a contracting software engineer. Part of what made me successful was my willingness to re-invest my profits in betters tools and technology. I stayed aware of when buying a fifty dollar book could save a client hundreds of dollars. Two major factors combined to squeeze me out of viability. The first was the shrinking window of opportunity associated with specific hardware and software, and the second was a movement towards version specific technical books with a usable lifetime as short as months, especially Microsoft Press.

    The period of distress started in 1999 when Y2K mania diverted normal project development money into fear based application repair against the chaos that would ensue when the first two digits of the year changed. Then in 2000, outsourcing was in full swing and experienced and capable domestic engineers were set aside in favor of cheap (in all respects) labor from India and other such places.

    Version and toolkit specific hiring criteria became more important than decades of varied experience and problem solving skills possessed by domestic software engineers. A general devaluation of experience as a hiring factor affected the HR people who had difficulty assessing technical applicants. Software development became some kind of manufacturing process where software developers were devalued into commodity items, paid as little as possible and discarded at a moments notice.

    The software development scene has been seriously broken for almost 14 years now and many very good people have given up on their profession in favor of flipping burgers or anything that can help support the family. It is a travesty. The impetus that started with the space race has been allowed to dribble away while the few companies at the top have aggregated most of the wealth and opportunity.

    I find it difficult to advise young people about taking up computing as a career in this environment.

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