back to article You want to put 3D gun designs on the web? You'll need a 2D printer

Much fun has been had over the Liberator, the 3D printed plastic gun. Our editor - a man who knows about such things - here at El Reg has pronounced it a piece of crap. Innumerable people have declared that it's either the end of civilisation as we know it or proof perfect that the Commie statists will never win. My own …

COMMENTS

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  1. Charles Manning

    "Innumerable people"

    This is the greatest defect in democracy.

    The few well educated people who think things through well get one vote each.

    The many uneducated morons with no ability for critical thought get one vote each.

    No wonder the politicians pander to the latter even when they are capable of thought.

    1. Grave

      Re: "Innumerable people"

      intellicracy :)

      you know, get an extra vote for every point above average intelligence (or even every 10 points, or scaled exponentially to balance out the masses of stupid)

      world would be such a nice place

      1. Crisp

        Re: intellicracy

        That might not be a good idea. While I may be smart, I may not be benevolent or well informed. My extra votes may well do more harm than good.

      2. Richard Gadsden

        Re: "Innumerable people"

        There are a lot of very intelligent people who believe (and will vote on the basis of) some very stupid things.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: "Innumerable people"

      This is the greatest defect in democracy.

      The few well educated people who think things through well get one vote each.

      The many uneducated morons with no ability for critical thought get one vote each.

      No wonder the politicians pander to the latter even when they are capable of thought.

      Democracy does have a few defects, such as 4 wolves and a sheep deciding what's for dinner, but it's a reasonable system if kept free of corruption. The latter condition is missing in the US, IMHO it is no longer even able to *PRETEND* to be a truly functioning open democracy.

      I do, however, a question which even excite the bozo vote: couldn't we introduce this personal responsibility in finance? Even, say, 5 years post exit? Methinks it could seriously improve the way banks and governments deal with other people's money..

  2. Zmodem

    just use a CNC machine and make guns and spaceships out of cro-mo titanium, after you designed it in your 3d program

    1. Stoneshop
      FAIL

      @zmodem

      Total lack of comprehension. Again.

      This is not about the manufacturing process. This is about US export laws regarding weapons.

      Kindly bugger off to reddit or something.

      1. Zmodem

        Re: @zmodem

        the past few articles about 3d printers and scanners, is nothing more then a big let down, because the editor cannot make his plastic gun, its about nothing much more

        the export laws mean nothing, its just another articles about not being able to make a plastic gun

        CNC machines have been about for years, along with 3d laser scanners using to make replica and lighter parts for bikes and car engines

        any CNC engineer can make gun parts or sci-fi knifes during lunch

        3d printers are just a toy for the poor

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          @zmodem

          It eludes me why you bother posting on here at all, I doubt very much your comments have any effect on anyone because in the main they are completely incomprehensible. When they do approach some semblance of meaning they are largely irrelevant and are therefore a complete waste of everyone's time and effort.

          Maybe you should pay attention to actually reading things, such as the articles and comments by intelligent people, and try to understand their meanings.

          While you do this you might also pick up the ability to use simple features of the English language such as punctuation, capital letters and pluralisation. I think the concept of tense is probably a bit too advanced for you.

          When you have reached the dizzying heights of actually having something useful to say and being able to express those ideas in a format understandable by others, please do come back and participate in a constructive discussion.

        2. Desk Jockey

          Re: @zmodem

          You have gone off on a tangent irrelevant to this article as the previous poster was trying to tell you.

          Whether you make a CAD file for a CNC machine or a 3D printer, it can still be controlled by ITAR if it is about making a weapon and trying to send that file abroad. Anyone in the US can send each other CAD files (free or for a fee) and make their own guns. They need a particular licence to sell that gun, they need an export control licence to sell that gun or send the CAD file abroad.

          Not any CNC engineer can make a gun or gun part that a professional would trust. Making such items that wont fail on you at a really bad time requires a certain level of skill and very accurate dimensions. This is because even after a part comes out of the CNC machine, it still needs to be checked or adjusted by hand (scraping edges off for example). Any skilled gun maker has that knowledge, a normal CNC engineer does not although it should not be too hard to teach them.

          1. Zmodem

            Re: @zmodem

            any professional would trust a CNC machine weapon part if its done with the right metal, modern titanium is the new carbon for downhill mountain bikes, <> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YuuPERw7_mA

            the CNC end result is alot better then a production line press

            CNC machine are in any garage that does custom builds, they are run by butt scratching everyday mechanics with some kind of intelligence and most everyday people could`nt care about the government, and emailing a stupid little file with a 3d laser scan in of some buretta part

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: @zmodem, apostrophe

              Careful, don't want to be getting ahead of yourself.

              Try some basic things first, like sentences. I think apostrophes are running before you can walk, so to speak at this stage.

              1. Desk Jockey

                Re: @zmodem (Ugh!)

                You are right, he is a moron. I hope he is not in charge of anything more dangerous than a computer attached to the internet!

                Don't bother taking my word for it, use a search engine like google to search for in depth articles on how people make guns. Stick to concepts about using steel, anything more complicated is a bit beyond you at this stage...

                1. Anonymous Coward
                  Anonymous Coward

                  Re: @zmodem (Ugh!)

                  On the CNC gun thing, there is more to it than just machining the form... there are heat-treating process to modify the properties of your machined parts... some bits you want hard, other bits you want to be tough.

                  Oh, and titanium has been used in mountain bikes for years... the cost of the material came down drastically after the collapse of the Soviet Union (who had stockpiled it for military purposes), and it is now the trickiness of welding and finishing Ti frames that keeps the cost up.

                  It's strange all this hype about one person being able to make one gun... when a far more infamous rifle owes its notoriety to being relatively easy to mass produce - stamping and drawing metal components is quicker and cheaper than machining them once you've invested in the tooling. You've then armed hundreds of men, rather than a lone nutter.

                  1. hayseed

                    Re: @zmodem (Ugh!)

                    Considering that houses in the US are often painted in paints with a titanium oxide base, I don't think rarity is a consideration at all at any reasonable price level.

                    1. Tim Worstal

                      Re: @zmodem (Ugh!)

                      Your metals wide boy here.

                      Titanium oxide (TiO2) is indeed the white pigment in white paint. $500 a tonne or summat at the gates of the manufacturing plant. Easy to make (stick ilmenite into a furnace with coal, light coal, feed in chlorine, separate the bits through distillation of the various chlorides, all gases at these temperatures).

                      Ti metal is a great deal more expensive. Last I looked $15 a kg but could be very different from that now. The process of TiO2 to Ti is hugely energy intensive.

          2. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

            Re: @zmodem

            >or send the CAD file abroad

            Yes and how many people have had FBI raids for posting the cad files of a basically useless toy gun on their website?

            http://www.stormthecastle.com/trebuchet/trebuchet-plan.htm

            1. Zmodem

              Re: @zmodem

              none, replica guns have been made for years, some tard who does'nt have a criminal braincell in his head make all the other tards get excited, now when the media clears, there just be a tard irc chan full of tards that keep getting raided, with the media following it for a thousand years

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      re: "cro-mo titanium"

      Chrome-Molybdenum, also known as CR-MO or Cro-moly, is a type of steel.

      Titanium is a different element.

      There is no such thing as "cro-mo titanium".

      1. Zmodem

        Re: re: "cro-mo titanium"

        i know... titanium is soft and shit.. mordern titanium is strong enough for downhill mountain bike frames >> like in red bull rampage http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YuuPERw7_mA

        cro-mo titanium, most IT people would know the basics of what your talking about, most have carbon road bikes or go trekking on mountain bikes

        the IT wages, pays for it all

        1. Zmodem

          Re: re: "cro-mo titanium"

          if you buy a normal bike frame it has to be cro-mo alloy for proper off road use or the frame will snap like all of your kona, giant etc high street bikes

        2. Roo
          FAIL

          Re: re: "cro-mo titanium"

          "i know... titanium is soft and shit.. "

          You appear to know very little about Titanium. It would be heart breaking to find someone taking you said seriously.

          1. Richard 120

            Re: re: "cro-mo titanium"

            @AC Posted Tuesday 14th May 2013 11:02 GMT & 11:36 GMT - No need to be AC, Zmodem is clearly living in a world with a maximum occupancy of one, you have written in your posts some very eloquent put downs.

            If I had a vote in the intellicracy being defined in the first thread of this comments page then it would in favour of removing Zmodem.

          2. Zmodem

            Re: re: "cro-mo titanium"

            untreated or modified, all alloys are sodt and shit, titanium is just the lightest alloy and has better conductive properties, and the hardest to mine

            all bike frames for dh/fr are made from cro-mo alloy

            not many halfords and asdas are going to sell some £4000 cubes and nukeproof team spec bikes or frames

            1. Zmodem

              Re: re: "cro-mo titanium"

              cro-mo alloy, it has enough stength for the punishment of redbull rampage downhill

              you can easily use it to shed a few lbs of most guns and make your own parts

            2. hayseed

              Re: re: "cro-mo titanium"

              alloys tend to be more brittle than pure elements

              1. Zmodem

                Re: re: "cro-mo titanium"

                alloys are soft, its why you can stab original alloy car wheel from the late 80s with a knife, bend bike cogs with a hammer and they wear out in an average 6 months and the chain slips, a trusty steel cassette can last 15 years but weighs 2-300 grams more

                use some cro-mo alloy and you can get rid of 8-10 lbs off a desert eagle

                http://toucharcade.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/854059_3.jpg

                http://www.pyramydair.com/blog/images/loaded-desert-eagle-web.jpg

                alloy frames = http://media.chopmtb.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/GT-959x540.jpg

                cro-mo alloy frames = http://p.vitalmtb.com/photos/products/12133/photos/11275/s780_2013_Banshee_Spitfire_Frame_black.jpg

                1. Anonymous Coward
                  Anonymous Coward

                  Titanium

                  Dude, Titanium is not an alloy.

                  1. Zmodem

                    Re: Titanium

                    titanium is a alloy,

                    the top dogs in made to order bike frames that cost £6-12,000 have frames 100% titanium

                    making replica parts for guns out of cro-mo alloy which has plenty of strength and alot lighter then steel, does'nt really matter from a military point if your gun will have a full service every month or two

                    there is no other possible way for organized crime to make replica guns but to 3d laser scan all the parts

                    1. John 62
                      Headmaster

                      Re: Titanium

                      Titanium is an elemental metal.

                      Sorry. Just wanted to clear up that point of fact. Titanium, like most metals can be alloyed with something else to give it different properties and I see no reason why a bicycle cannot be made from titanium or titanium alloy. Anyway, I care not for the downhill crazies dodging trees. I'm sticking to the road!

                      1. Zmodem

                        Re: Titanium

                        on old bikes, its only usually axles and rivets made from titanium, cro-mo titanium or something else has had to come along for a whole frame to be strong enough

                2. hayseed

                  Re: re: "cro-mo titanium"

                  "Alloy" rims are alloys of aluminum or magnesium. They are far tougher than the original pure metals (Al or Mg) (haha, no one would even use a pure magnesium rim).

                  1. Zmodem

                    Re: re: "cro-mo titanium"

                    theres plenty of them

                    more on the die cast single mould 24" rims for downhill dry rocky mud and bogs world

                    1. Zmodem

                      Re: re: "cro-mo titanium"

                      cheap wheels that are welded and 26", you will end with the mad buckles that cant be fixed

                      http://findability.org/images/bentbike.png

      2. hayseed

        Re: re: "cro-mo titanium"

        And titanium is notoriously difficult to machine (saw a special on the YF-22 YF-23 competition. one of them had a little trouble with some titanium part, despite all their experience).

  3. John Smith 19 Gold badge
    Unhappy

    Interesting. P**s away $850Bn in banks and your *not* liable but 10g of Hf and you are.

    Now had that been the other way round things might be different...

    ITAR, Making every foreigner feel as welcome as the leader of North Korea.

  4. Mr C

    ironic is my middle name

    It's a bit ironic considering that we're talking about a country that's doing everything it can to sell as many guns as possible to its citizens, while at the same time trying to keep em from overflowing over the borders.

    nice reporting, i enjoyed reading it.

    1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

      Re: ironic is my middle name

      Yes but suppose the Chinese discovered the secret of gunpowder.

      They could invade America

      1. Intractable Potsherd
        Coffee/keyboard

        Re: ironic is my middle name @ YAAc

        New keyboard, please! When will I learn not to consume food or drink when reading the comments?

  5. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    I dont like the precedent that a 3d cad file can be a weapon. Surely its not a weapon until you build it in to an actual weapon? This is a dangerous precedent in itself if they rule that they are illegal files.

    1. Crisp

      Re: dangerous precedent

      There are plenty of files that are illegal to possess.

      But I agree that plans for a weapon are not a weapon. Plans require a certain amount of expertise and tools in order for someone to turn them into something that works.

      Otherwise, I'm probably in a lot of trouble for owning the plans for a Deathstar like battle fortress. That's got to be a weapon of mass destruction in anybody's book.

    2. matt g

      It's a well established principle that plans for licensable items are licensable.

      Second, these plans have categorically not been deemed illegal. They are perfectly legal, defcad created them with the full knowledge of the US government. It's only the international dissemination of them that is being reviewed.

      1. Crisp

        Re: international dissemination

        So like the 56-bit/128-bit encryption issue from a few years back?

        1. matt g

          Re: international dissemination

          I don't think so. Since then regs have changed a lot. You wouldn't need to invoke the first amendment in order to distribute things without a licence if they were genuinely public domain documents for example.

          At this precise moment in time there is no confirmed controlled data in the defcad documents. It's all speculation, and a lot of FUD about the government trampling over the constitution, trying to grasp at smoke, and incorrect assertions about the (il)legality of the plans.

          Ideally, we should all wait for the outcome of the determination of jurisdiction before leaping to any conclusion.

  6. matt g

    Can't agree that printing it out works

    Prety sure you'll find that all plans or technical documents for ITAR products are ITAR, irrespective of the medIum they reside in.

    1. Brewster's Angle Grinder Silver badge

      Re: Can't agree that printing it out works

      IANAL But when an ASCII STL or PLY file is printed out, it would surely fall under the First Amendment in the same way that the source to PGP did.

      1. matt g

        Re: Can't agree that printing it out works

        Here's the relevant legislation:

        § 120.10 Technical data.

        (a) Technical data means, for purposes of this subchapter:

        (1) Information, other than software as defined in §120.10(a)(4), which is re- quired for the design, development, production, manufacture, assembly, op- eration, repair, testing, maintenance or modification of defense articles. This includes information in the form of blueprints, drawings, photographs, plans, instructions or documentation.

        (2) Classified information relating to defense articles and defense services;

        (3) Information covered by an inven- tion secrecy order;

        (4) Software as defined in §121.8(f) of this subchapter directly related to de- fense articles;

        (5) This definition does not include information concerning general sci- entific, mathematical or engineering principles commonly taught in schools, colleges and universities or informa- tion in the public domain as defined in §120.11. It also does not include basic marketing information on function or purpose or general system descriptions of defense articles.

        (b) [Reserved]

        Freedom of speech has limitations. You can't , for example publish someone else's work and claim no consequences because of freedom of speech. You can't publish someone else's proprietary information you obtained under an NDA and claim freedom of speech makes it ok.

        Of course the ruling may come back that none of defcad's stuff is ITAR, that parts of it are, or that all of it is.

      2. matt g

        Re: Can't agree that printing it out works

        Way back then, the fact it was printed as a book made it protected speech under the first amendment. Since then, source code itself has been determined to enjoy the same protection.

        However, contrary to everything you have read that says the government is acting unconstitutionally, so far nothing has been banned.

        We're all still waiting for the state department to say what, if anything in the documents might actually be ITAR controlled.

        1. Lenard
          Happy

          Re: Can't agree that printing it out works

          I believe it is the fact that it was printed as a book made many speculate and argue that it was protected by free speech/the first amendment. This was never actually determined one way or the other because the US government did not take it to court because they were afraid of setting a precedent. Therefore it is not actually known how the supreme court would rule in regards to a book or other content of this type. Once could almost cite the government's inaction in the PGP case as precedent... IMO all that needs to be done is to host the files on a US based server. That way they never leave the country by anything the content creator(s) or administrators do.

  7. nuked
    Alert

    I wonder how simple the design has to be for this licensing and ensuing accountability to engage?

    Accuracy aside, I'm pretty sure I could knock something together that would fire a bullet in a deadly-ish kinda way. Whether my invention could do it a second time or not is another question...

  8. Brewster's Angle Grinder Silver badge

    Nice angle, Tim. Yesterday's Adobe one was good, too, so I'm looking for the hat trick tomorrow.

    1. Tim Worstal

      Sadly

      El Grande Jefe has not hired me to do anything for tomorrow.....I am, apparently, a rare treat rather than a regular meal.....

  9. Desk Jockey
    Happy

    ITAR is evil

    Nice try there, but I think you will find that weapons design is still controlled by ITAR no matter what medium is used to transmit it in. The damn guidance book on ITAR is an inch thick and can be used as a bludgeoning weapon in itself! You can bet they will get him on something.

    Very good point on the personal responsibility though, export licences are very much like that in all countries and deliberately so to stop people selling stuff with an, "I don't ask and you don't tell" policy. In the old days, that was how the dodgy arms dealers avoided going to jail for breaking UN arms embargos.

    The correct phrase you are looking for when needing export licences for stuff like zirconium is 'dual-use'. Military use (eg weapons, their parts or design documents) come under military list export controls and are slightly different from dual-use which tend to be a bit more opaque and more about how the item can be used rather than what it was designed for. There was a famous case of exports of Xboxes being blocked from sale to Iraq under dual-use as it was suspected Saddam wanted them to power computers for nuclear weapons manufacture.

    Fun to read article though.

    1. matt g

      Re: ITAR is evil

      Yeah, it was nice to read something by someone with a passing familiarity with export control. Most stuff on this story has been FUD.

      In addition to your comments, one thing not noted so far as I have seen is the recognition that ITAR is extra-territorial. Those in receipt of ITAR goods are subject to ITAR restrictions on re-export. That has potentially serious consequences for anyone redistributing the plans, say, oh I don't know, by torrents or pirate bay.

      1. Desk Jockey

        Re: ITAR is evil

        Yep, you are entirely correct. I spot a fellow sufferer!

        The extra-territorial thing is a complete farce as well as being a complete nightmare for those trying to comply with the rules. The fact that the CAD files are being distributed via torrents would make it completely un-enforceable, but I bet it does not stop the State Department from trying! The US can be surprisingly flexible on which parts of ITAR it wants to enforce if you are able to push the right buttons... For all other times, it suffers from OCD!

  10. The Axe
    Megaphone

    Never underestimate

    "never underestimate the ability of the law to be several decades behind what it is that people are actually doing."

    Or rather never underestimate the ability of the law to be a total and utter cock and pile of shite with stupidity piled on top as a garnish, especially when its created by politicians and civil servants who have no clue about how it all works in real life.

  11. Ryan 7
    Coat

    These geology stories rock!

    /coat

    1. Richard 120
      WTF?

      Re: These geology stories rock!

      Did you just tire of waiting for a relevant story to use this pun?

      I enjoyed the comment regardless of how on topic it was, kind of like a surreal monty python tangent.

  12. Oninoshiko
    Go

    How he gets licenses to ship over-seas is irrelevant.

    This guy is doing this as a matter of principle. He wanted to get it on the internet and copied to the point it can't be taken down to force the issue and start the discussion by proving the ineffectiveness of these types of export laws.

    It's on torrents and we are talking about it. Ergo, he's already accomplished his primary goal.

  13. Maikol
    Thumb Up

    Screw the Liberator - Need more stories like these!

    As per comment, I far enjoyed the story about the export adventures. More of these please!

    Sounds like Lord of War kind of thing.

    Did you ever had to change flags on ships as well?

  14. Don Jefe
    Meh

    Weird

    I said exactly this the other day. The guy was in violation of export controls and I got the shit downvoted out of me (a personal record). I said the guy was playing loose with the law & it wasn't fair to the rest of us who do go through a lot of hoops and lay a lot of liability on the table in order to play by the rules. I stand by what I said the other day.

  15. david 12 Silver badge

    Gun control

    This issue needs to be considered in the context of US gun control. The arguments that are being advanced: "This individual act won't have any effect on the general availability of guns" and "This gun isn't the dangerous kind of gun" are exactly the same arguments that are being advanced for doing nothing about gun control in general.

    I think that there needs to be a recognition that if you want to have gun control (or drug control), you need to take small steps as well as big steps.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Gun control

      @david 12

      "This issue needs to be considered in the context of US gun control. The arguments that are being advanced: "This individual act won't have any effect on the general availability of guns" and "This gun isn't the dangerous kind of gun" are exactly the same arguments that are being advanced for doing nothing about gun control in general.

      I think that there needs to be a recognition that if you want to have gun control (or drug control), you need to take small steps as well as big steps."

      This is the problem. There is a single guy with a single view with a single one track mind in charge of a number of states or countries. This one man is trying to impose his view on all these states which is a view completely alien to some of these states and rejected in some others. There are states that agree with aggressive gun control and they are very different to states who dont believe in much gun control. A similar situation exists with drugs as some states have legalised some drugs.

      Not everyone shares the same views and countries/states certainly dont. Why do you think europe is having so many problems? A central body is overstepping its bounds and people dont agree. Countries dont agree.

      Everyone evaluates the US as a single entity but that is only on the world stage. Internally the US is like the EU but get along much better and like the shared identity.

      As weapons go this printed thing is almost useless. By almost it is less effective than the freely available choices available to us all with barely any price tag. While this thing is extremely expensive and useless.

      I see two lots of comments on here. Some by those who think this thing is a viable weapon/dangerous/etc and those who think.

  16. Michael Wojcik Silver badge

    Three letters

    men with three letters after their name poking around in your private life

    Those dentists are a caution, eh?

  17. Steve 129
    Thumb Down

    Paper IS covered by ITAR

    Printing the plans out does NOT exclude you from ITAR requirements. In fact, even talking to a foreign national can put you in trouble.

    1. Zmodem

      Re: Paper IS covered by ITAR

      you dont need to print them, you can convert 2d images to 3d objects and adjust the depth of those objects in blender and then convert .obj file to cad in another program

    2. jcrb
      Black Helicopters

      Re: Paper IS covered by ITAR

      Not just paper but fabric as well.

      http://atomictoasters.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/uk-front2.jpg

      and human skin

      http://www.cypherspace.org/rsa/tattoo2.jpg

      of course once you successfully export a copy and convert it to electronic form you are ok, then you can link to copies outside the US like this.

      http://www.talisman.org/~erlkonig/humour/rea-munition.gif

      so yes ITAR can be a real pain

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