Red Green Ken v Porsche in battle of the polls

Well

No fucker asked me.

In fact I can't recall ever being asked an opinion on anything that happens in London despite being one of its residents!

More statistics lol

Let me guess Porsche polled their customers and Ken polled the green party .

Stats can say anything . Personally I think all this carbon footprint caper is a load of bollocks .

Paris as she wouldnt know a carbon footprint if it was in a video with her .

Oh Ken....

I, for one, agree with Porsche. None of the people I know agree with the C Charge in any form or fashion, and considering what Ken says the norm is, that is quite surprising.

If Ken can prove that the revenue earned from the C Charge is going to improve public transport and roads to ease congestion and allow citizens to move around London in a greener fashion, then I will support it. However, at present, transport in London is in a bit of a shambles,and Ken's C Charge isnt helping.

The fact that Ken will not allow car owners who live in C Charge zones a discount if their cars are "bad", shows that this is simply a tax, and Ken thinks he can pin it on the rich "because they can afford it", and because its green, therefore popular. But its just a tax, its not going anywhere.

London has many areas that need improving - we need more police, the police need more authority, we need more tube capacity quite urgently, we need more above ground trains - and I dont see Ken targeting those, or showing how his green taxes are helping to accomplish them.

For the record, I do not own a car, I cant afford one, and even if I could I dont see the point in owning one in London. And I still dont agree with Ken.

One of Ken's very few good ideas

I think Porsche know that they have practically no chance of succeeding with this action, but think they can gain some positive PR out of the exercise ...... however, they are wholly wrong - from talking to friends (both cyclists and ones who drive Porsches), almost all are massively in favour of the congestion charge. One of the few tools available to policy makers to improve air quality in cities is to tax the most polluting cars off the road.

Now, if only Livingstone hadn't made such a tremendous balls-up of the introduction of particulate filters on London's older taxis (the retro-fitted ones don't work and newer taxis aren't required to have them) ... :-(

Good idea

This legislation would go a long way towards fixing the current slightly arbitrary system, highlighted by Top Gear; a Lexus 4x4, at around 30mpg, pays no congestion charge since it is a hybrid, while high efficiency conventional vehicles pay the full whack, despite using less road space, fuel, materials, causing less road wear, etc.

What's next

I don't drive in London (and try to aviod it as much as possible), but to me it does smack of money grabbing.

What next.

Congetion Zone increase (few more million £)

Green Zone for lorries (few more million £)

Low occupancy next?

Car makers should ignore the laws of physics

"Luxury car manufacturers such as Porsche should take the hint and put their energy into reducing the carbon emissions of their cars instead of pursuing pointless legal action against this ground-breaking policy," said Mayor Ken.

There is a direct relationship between the power output of an engine and the amount of fuel that it burns. Furthermore, there is a direct relationship between the amount of fuel going into the engine and the amount of CO2 coming out.

The only way therefore to reduce the carbon emissions of a Porsche is to fit a less powerful engine. But the whole reason that anybody buys a Porsche is because of its powerful engine. Nobody is going to buy a Porsche with a 1 litre engine.

Driving in London is now only for the rich people. It's only a matter of time before it spreads to the rest of the country. Pirate icon because Ken is plundering motorists.

Athens?

Didn't something stupid like this happen in Athens, some time back? Something along the lines that the city council said on alternate days, odd and even numbered plates would be allowed into the city, to try to reduce the smog. All people did was buy a very rough old second car with opposite plate to theirs and still drove in causing just as much smog to build up!

I hate to say it though, but if you can afford a £50k+ car with 6 litre engine, surely you can afford to pay to park/drive it in London? I can't so I use the ever so wonderful public transport mess to get to work!

Go Ken!

I live in London. I own a car. And I've paid the CC precisely once since it was introduced, life being too short to attempt to avoid it while doing Walthamstow-Old Kent Road in a hired Transit during the rush hour.

And AC above should note that the 90% discount does /not/ apply to all Londoners - see http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloads/CC-discount-residents-leaflet.pdf

Red Ken???

I don't get why everybody calls Ken red, commie, socialist, liberal etc - what he does is purely capitalist approach - make money and more money regardless (using all means available). The real rich won't be affected, as one ABD poster (http://www.abd.org.uk/pr/609.htm) puts it "fiver won't even buy me a cigar". Squeezing working folks dry is nothing to do with socialism, he's a typical capitalist... or should i say fascist?

Correction to Law of Physics

"Driving in London is now only for the rich people."

No AC - you mean only for watermelons whose taxi rides are all paid for on expenses out of the public purse. Copyright K Livingstone Esq.

Hybrids

Read this story http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7291323.stm

So If I were to stick a 12v motor on a Hummer it's a Hybrid so it's green. Brilliant!!

I have Porsche but also an oldish VW Passat which also fulls into this stupid higher catergory and I also cycle everywhere in summer. Luckily I live outside london so don't have to pay for Ken's bloody bendy buses (Cyclist will know what I mean), but I work in London and due to CC and stupid parking restrictions put in by local dictatorships, I have to get the train into work.

Jamie Oliver, Hugh Fernley-Wittenstone et al, forget battery chickens, get a train at 8.00am and see what real inhumane conditions are!!

poor rich people

So I'm supposed to care that a bunch of rich people have to pay to drive around in their porches and 4x4's? No thanks - we need to reduce CO2 - this is one part of (hopefully) many extra taxes on CO2 emissions.

Taxis - and Ken's surveys

Isn't Ken's department the one with the highest bill for taxis in the entire government? Why not use the bus? Why use DIESEL cars that has to come from another place (i.e. double the carbon load) instead of locally parked hybrids? As for 20mph - you haven't been watching. The taxi lanes are kept free so taxi drivers can drive well above posted speed limits, especially visible on the M40 inbound from Heathrow where traffic moving at posted speeds (rare, but it happens) gets flown past by buses and taxis. Strangely enough there are never speed cameras that cover those strips..

As for a TFL survey, I've seen all I needed to see when they rigged the tram surveys in Ealing. I have no idea how much money they were promised to get from the supermarket chain at the end or the tram builders themselves, but something must have been going on to so blatantly rig the survey. They interviewed people who were not near the proposed area and not impacted (I suspect analogous to what I've heard re. the congestion zone expansion process), and as far as I recall (it's been a while) they casually neglected to mention that it would require the destruction of thousands of mature trees. Yes, "green" Ken..

Oh, and just to worry you, when I started digging into what they were proposing I discovered they hadn't really planned on any routes for the emergency services. It appeared to have escaped them that trams find it challenging to move aside on account of being on rails. Or that you need fire brigade or ambulance and police at all in a region (neither of them lives there).

Please Londoners, if you have any sense do NOT vote for this guy again. At this stage I'd vote for Boris Johnsson. If we have to suffer, let us them at least have someone who can make us laugh. And start reading the small print - leave trust at home.

BTW, the congestion charge system doesn't work very well with foreign plates. Expect an influx of terribly maintained VW Beetles with non-UK plates, belching oil. And old Mercedes diesels.. I'm sure you can rent some abroad...

@Jonathan

jesus give Ken a chance - his stated plan for using the money raised by this scheme is to promote cycling and other public transport.

we need more police? yes, but I hope you weren't one of those who squealed when a charge for exactly that was itemised on your your council tax bill?

you don't see Ken targeting overground trains? umm try getting out more. he has just taken the overground services under his control after two years of haggling. the number of trains running per hour is set to double, and every station is now manned. this, ladies and gentlemen, is where the congestion charge money is going, and I will welcome any ex-Porche driver to share my seat.

agree w AC

"There is a direct relationship between the power output of an engine and the amount of fuel that it burns. "

...correct, and since our beloved government insists on taking 65p tax for every litre of fuel burnt, dont you think that the porsche/4x4 drivers of this world are already being taxed more for owning their vehicles than your average 1.2L vehicle?

grrrrrr

(I dont own a car either, I cycle, and Kens CC hasnt reduced the number of cars in london during my commute.)

Re: poor rich people

erm, you're not getting it are you? People with Mondeos, Passats and Beetles are going to be hit. These aren't exactly your typical rich city boy cars, are they?

And if it was to have the desired effect it should only be applied to new cars, so people can choose. Strangely we don't all change cars every year, and with the huge impact this'll have on 2nd hand values of these cars no-one will be able to afford to replace them with more economical newer ones, and even if they did most of the environmental damage comes from manufacture of the thing in the first place.....

Go Boris...

Not about

The impact of this tax is not aimed solely at gas guzzlers, 4x4s, Porsches or whatever else, though they are affected. Plenty of very ordinary family cars will be hit by the £25 charge - things like four year old Mondeos, Vectras, whatever. The sort of car someone might buy second hand because it's ex-fleet thus very cheap, reliable and much better at carrying the family than a brand new supermini which costs more. Posters above talking about £50K, 6 litre cars are missing the point entirely.

This is a tax grab aimed at a section of London that will never vote for Ken - the rich and the middle class. He doesn't care what people think of this tax because his power base doesn't drive.

For all their good intentions, Porsche have done the wrong thing here unfortunately. They are helping to keep the debate focused on high performance cars whose drivers don't attract a great deal of sympathy and playing right into his hands in the process. The lawsuit should really have been bought by all the working families of London who drive comparitively clean, petrol-burning £4,000 saloons, sadly they vent their frustration by commenting on threads like this rather than organising.

The Congestion Charge is a good thing.

Well, that's got your attention. Yes it is, it pays for a lot of the increased public transport provision in London, an long may that continue, perhaps with some decent orbital tube and rail routes being added.

But hang on £25 for the most polluting cars and those older that 2001, no, I'm with the purvayor of suped up Volkswagens here. I don't think big 4x4s and Pickups are needed any more than many other vehicles on the road, but why single out the private individual, what about White Van man, whose vans are getting bigger and faster, why not include suped up vans, and the older they are the worse they are maintained.

I also fail to see how the new policy will maintain public transport expenditure levels, if so many low emission vehicles suddenly become exempt, I'd rather see any emission vehicle charged £8, and only electric vehicles exempted, maybe half price for hybrids.

If we must have higher charges for larger vehicles then lets see a better approach with staggered rates, so if you must drive your Roller, Bently, stretch limmo or Hummer in central london, then you get to pay £25, but so do van drivers with Sprinters, Crafters, and alike. Then people carriers, sports cars, etc. get £10 or £15, and residents still get their discount, regardless of their choice of vehicle.

By the way, why haven't more couriers switched to electric vehicles, anybody know, I'd have thought Royal Mail would save a fortune, or do they count as residents.

Why do people bother living in London

Been there done that a simple solution is to move away.

In London:

The schools are crap

Traffic is a nightmare

You spend hours a day traveling

You never see your family your too busy commuting

You pay over the odds for everything from a bottle of coke to these C charges

House prices are crazy

Full of tourists

English is no longer the first language.

London is decent for a day trip but that is about it now a days. Leave it to rot with the tourists and wannabes.

@Why do people bother living in London

Well, I work in London so when I lived outside London...

Traffic was a nightmare

I spent hours a day traveling

I never saw my family as I was too busy commuting.

Now I have a 20 minute walk to work.

RE: poor rich people

Moron!! The problem you cant seem to fathom is that only the Rich can afford to drive in London as it effects a lot of cars you might not classify.

Just as Top Gear pointed our there are 17 odd Bentley GT Continentals registered as Mini Cabs, so avoiding the Congestion Charge.

Another tax from Commrad Ken as his beloved CC hasn't worked

Depends how you ask the question.

Ken's version:

"Do you think it's a good idea to tax the cobs off greedy bastards who drive big 4x4s and Porsches?"

Everyone else's version:

"Do you think it's a good idea to tax the cobs off everyone with a family car who can't afford to dump it for a shit-load less than it's worth and buy a brand spanking-new, tax avoiding one?"

(Hmm, no "Ken with horns" icon. What to do? Ah, Paris for the c-word connection.)

'c' charge

Bearing in mind who is behind it I thing the 'c' charge is very well named..

@Jim - They call him "Red Ken" because

He's trying to force everybody to drive crap cars, as well as specifically having a problem with/trying to financially penalise the rich = communism. Look at the USSR and everyone driving Ladas. He's trying to remove the option of choosing what kind of car you drive - he wants everyone to cycle, or drive Gee Whiz's.

re. Car makers should ignore the laws of physics

"There is a direct relationship between the power output of an engine and the amount of fuel that it burns. Furthermore, there is a direct relationship between the amount of fuel going into the engine and the amount of CO2 coming out."

Yes, but there's also a direct relationship between the power required to move a vehicle at a given speed and the speed and a whole range of other factors (i.e. weight, aerodynamic drag, tyre friction etc.).

A high-power engine moving a car at, say 30mph, only needs to produce a similar amount of power as a low-power engine, if all the factors are the same (with the possible exception of internal engine friction i.e. more pistons means more friction). The problem is that many of the worst polluting vehicles (4x4) NEED a high power output to move at fairly low speeds because they have high weight, high aerodynamic drag, high mechanical friction, wide, soft tyres etc.

At the moment the 4x4 is trendy and *some* people can afford to put fuel in them so it's a case of "if you're rich enough you're allowed to pollute more"; a better solution is to start putting limits on the fuel consumption of vehicles to force manufacturers to produce "greener" cars. This would have to be phased in to give manufacturers time to engineer in the changes and it would also have to be EU wide (at least) to provide a level playing field for the manufacturers.

@Fenton

I hope that this does deflate the previously enjoyed (second hand sounds so... last century) car market.

Perhaps I'll be able to pick up a nice 911 to nip to the station with, or a Hummer (so handy for the trackless wastes of the Tesco par park). I'd only have to pay the congestion rip off; sorry charge, once as I drove it home to the country.

Average car?

"are a lot of average cars that will be hit" "2l Beetle automatic"

How long has this been an average car? I drive a 1.6l Astra (manual gearbox). Seating for 5 and does 70+ mph on motorway.

I see the charges as an extension of the clean air acts. I also live in a suburban area of a city in a otherwise rural part of the country.

Go on Ken, stuff the Londoners.

Pravda

The problem with Ken is he's a sneering little communist who hates anyone being successful other than himself.

The sooner Crazy Boris rubs Ken's face in it the better (even if he's a muppet).

IT because - Where is the IT angle here?

A survey backing Ken?

If Ken does have a survey backing him, then it will pretty much be the first one he's ever commissioned that does. Normally he has a consultation for some plan, the majority reject the idea, but he goes ahead anyway. That's how we got the congestion charge in the first place, and the extension to the west.

I'm more inclined to believe Porsche to be honest. Certainly everyone I have asked (car driver or not) is against the £25 tax.

Short memories - old problem

Many moons ago, in the distant past there was British Rail. This was a BAD thing as it belonged to the people and had frequent delays due to strikes. Best solution was to sell it off and then give those who bought bits loads of their money back to pay out bonuses. New, comfy, faster and more frequent trains were foretold by the profit Rich Branson in the entrails of shop stewards and lo, the commuters saw the share price was good.

Many years past and the flock began to realise that yes, the companies bonuses were good and they were still being given even more money by those who had sold the railways but the trains were even worse than before.

By now many tribes had moved camp out in to the wastelands known as Surrey, Essex and other far places with the promise of easy returns to the holy city. The priests demanded the daily worship yet the trains were becoming scarce so the wise ones took to the road instead.

With less people on the trains there was less need for trains so the carriages and staff were culled once again and even more took to the roads.

Then came, from the west - well, Brent East - , a strident prophet who captured the souls of those who dwelt in the city and he was told he had to do something about the traffic.

"Pay up or piss off" said he,

"We have to come in or we cannot worship" said the outlanders

"You wanted something done about the traffic" said the Ken

"Yeah but not this, we expected to still drive. Pull down some houses to make bigger roads and more car parks, that sort of thing." they whined.

"It's not my fault you've got no trains - ask that Blair chappie about Cross rail and the like"

"We thought he was your friend" came the reply from the masses.

"Where the fuck have you lot been these past years" came a nasal sigh, "Now piss off and hassle the train companies, they got you in to this, not me. Oh, and by the way, ask who broke up the bus service while you're at it."

Mine's the one with "my other car is a bike" on the back

Polution not politics

If Ken or any other government body were at all serious about reducing emissions as opposed to raising extra monies to pay for their 2nd homes and surround sound flat screen TV's set ups, then they could not possibly justify the use of a CO2 output as a means to judge vehicles by.

The system is a complete farse CO2 is one of the LEAST damaging emissions emitted from a car, not to mention something that can be tackled with many innovative solutions. Why should companies such as Volvo (I'm a true petrolhead so anyone who knows anything about cars must know that I feel pretty pissed to be using them as a ref.) who's cars clean up the air as they drive through it due to particle filters in the radiator, a manufacturing company that has been truely doing their bit for the environment through every step of the supply chain, recycled this, sustainable that for decades already be penalised simply because there cars are heavy and require bigger engines and by default produce more CO2, however compare an S80 2.5 turbo to a Citroen Saxo 1.2 on every other aspect the Volvo is a far "greener" car (less sulphates, nitrates, and energy in the manufacturing process) but it would be subject to the higher taxes. In the meantime the fake green cars such as the Prius continue to be allowed to drive around the place for next to nothing.

I think the whole process of what is considered environmentally friendly needs properly evaluating as opposed to taking a pointless snapshot based a very weak scientific background.

If ken or anyone else is remotely serious about this then they need to look at the bigger picture.

So how about only allowing the government to use the road fund license and fuel duty to fix the roads and plan disruptions better as opposed to going into a giant black hole, only allowing so called green taxes to be used improving the environment, investing in microgeneration or new filtrate technologies (nanotubes are looking promising) but know all we do is sit back whilst the gov. half's their investments in science and engineering (see the recent physics cuts for a start) and what we have is a spiralling taxation system that will only spread and get worse like some form of cancer for the entire country.

Anyrate thats my two pence worth;.................

re: pollution not politics

"So how about only allowing the government to use the road fund license and fuel duty to fix the roads and plan disruptions better as opposed to going into a giant black hole,"

The rot started some time back with that bastion for all things British (and aerial chemical weapons in Persia) Winston Churchill for 'twas he who took the "Road Tax" and put in it the general coffer. Since then roads have had to beg for some of their money back.

Get it right up you, lazy rich elitist scum

"Global warming is a scam, cars that clean the air as they drive, Ken Livingstone is a Communist, driving is more environmentally friendly than running, trains are environmentally unfriendly too, a Porsche should pay less than a bus because it's smaller"

You Porsche owners are a funny lot. I bet you think people envy you as you sit in traffic listening to The Best Power Ballads in the World...Ever! as well.

Why we dont use electric vehicles.

<By the way, why haven't more couriers switched to electric vehicles, anybody know, I'd have thought Royal Mail would save a fortune, or do they count as residents.>

Because they are expensive and crap.

I work as a bike courier and drive anywhere between 50-500miles a day. Find me an electric vehicle with that range that can pull a steady 70mph, costs less than £1000 to buy and can carry the weight of myself kitted up (over 130kilos) and a full load of luggage, possibly another 80kilos and I might be interested.

A couple of points...

..might be worth noting.

1) It's called the Thin End Of The Wedge.

Either make a bit of noise now, or prepare to paying £5/day [or more] anywhere within the M25 - I'll put a tenner on it being proposed, if not actioned, within the next ten years.

If Ken was serious about getting people out of their cars and onto the tube [not something I disagree with, despite being a proper, hardcore petrolhead] then he would do something about the fucking northern line at rush hour - where it's impossible to get on unless you specifically want to be elbowed in the face seventeen times between three stops.

Same goes for a lot of the train routes into London - I use FCC from Letchworth and at peak times it can be utterly awful. Not as bad as some places mind, but still nasty. I pay the better part of £400/month for this privelidge - nearly as much as my rent.

2) Now, if 100% of congestion charge money [and a lot of the CoL overflow] were to go to *substantially* increasing tube capacity initially at the major crush points [pretty much any tube line that has multiple connections to main line stations], and then extending the commuter line platforms and providing twelve carriage services at rush hour - rather than the four, or sometimes eight if you are lucky - then I *might* be able to sit here without spitting blood from my bitten tongue.

But alas no, it will go on bloody bus lanes, cycle lanes and 'green initiatives' - not to mention the financial back hole that is Capita's invoices.

Sort out the tubes, sort out the trains, *then* start looking at cyclists, buses, and congestion.

Big picture first, little details later.

Steven R

PS: As for 'getting out of London' - it's the only place round here to get a decent IT career - if you haven't worked as a sysengineer/sysadmin in the city, no-one wants to touch you in the sticks IME....

Georgey

Sterling piece of commentary there George, useful, well thought-out and well executed. I particularly liked the way you carefully set out your argument and reasoning. My very favourite part was the exclamation mark, genius!

Davidoff

PS: You sir, are a fool.

PPS: I don't work in London, but I want to.

PPPS: Thursday is the new Friday.

Ken is a C*nt

ken is a cupid stunt

nuff said