back to article Python-lovers sling 'death threats' at UK ISP in trademark row

UK webhosting outfit Veber has called the police after fending off abuse in the wake of its attempt to trademark "python" in Europe. The small biz said it came under fire from fans of the popular Python programming language. The firestorm appeared to have been ignited by a Python Software Foundation (PSF) blog post on 14 …

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  1. Electric Panda
    FAIL

    The people responsible for this threatening behaviour are possibly the saddest people I have EVER come across. This is beyond ridiculous.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      But not surprising given the number of people that use the language, and the number of people who will join in "just for lulz"

      And anyway they're not as sad as the people that like X-Factor or Eastenders - they're probably on the level of people that have fanatical views about Operating Systems or Browsers.

    2. Destroy All Monsters Silver badge
      Thumb Down

      "This is beyond ridiculous."

      It's also 100% foreseeable.

      The only ridiculous thing is that the company of N men and a dog kicked this off in the first place.

      It's just pure provocation. "Yeah, we own the name, never heard of PYTHON in relationship to computers, we will trademark it, yadda yadda".

      They should have trademarked PRUTON and all of this could have been avoided.

      Here's hoping their telephone explodes due to the stupid.

      1. Tel Starr
        Devil

        But they didn't kick it off did they?

        They applied for a non-software, but IT related, trademark for a word\name that they had been trading under for 16 years (without objection). Then they get ambushed by an hysterical statement from a monolithic organisation who have made little effort to secure their own rights to the mark in the past (despite being lead by an IP lawyer!)

        But the PSF will get a free pass as they not Apple, Google, Microsoft or Games Workshop.

        Spots the Space Marine, may I introduce you to Python the Server.

        1. Destroy All Monsters Silver badge
          Meh

          That's complete BS.

          If there was "no objection" then there was no problem, right? Veber owns "python.co.uk" for unknown reasons without having trademarked anything for a long time. The Python language has been called Python for unknown reasons without having trademarked anything for a long time. Then suddenly...

          It's pretty rich that you point fingers at the PSF while okaying jerky behaviour by Veber. Whether the PSF is "monolithic" (what?) or not is neither here nor there.

          They applied for a non-software

          Citation needed...

          I have this. You may say it's false, but please do tell me more.

          There is a company in the UK that is trying to trademark the use of the term "Python" for all software, services, servers... pretty much anything having to do with a computer. Specifically, it is the company that got a hold on the python.co.uk domain 13 years ago. At that time we weren't looking a lot at trademark issues, and so we didn't get that domain.

          This hasn't been an issue since then because the python.co.uk domain has, for most of its life, just forwarded its traffic on to the parent companies, veber.co.uk and pobox.co.uk. Unfortunately, Veber has decided that they want to start using the name "Python" for their server products.

          We contacted the owners of python.co.uk repeatedly and tried to discuss the matter with them. They blew us off and responded by filing the community trademark application claiming the exclusive right to use "Python" for software, servers, and web services - everywhere in Europe.

          1. a cynic writes...

            I have this which they filed April last year. As I understand it the colours indicated are important - essentially they're claiming their logo.

            1. Destroy All Monsters Silver badge
              FAIL

              FAIL all the way

              They are claiming a distinctive logo and the PYTHON string.

              Implying that there would be no problem, how hard is it to talk to the Python guys and allay their fears, maybe write up a MOU about not grabbing each other's legal balls?

              Looks like that was too hard, too.

            2. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              @a cynic writes

              Application states: Class 9 - software. Nuff said.

            3. This post has been deleted by its author

            4. Fibbles

              My eyes!

              "I have this which they filed April last year. As I understand it the colours indicated are important - essentially they're claiming their logo."

              Somebody introduce their graphic designer to anti-aliasing.

        2. Charlie Clark Silver badge

          monolithic organisation

          Please provide evidence for this incorrect and unsubstantiated claim. The PSF is possibly not a model of democracy but it is democratic and Van is the elected chairman.

    3. John Lilburne

      Which just goes to show that the denizens of hobby computer forums are dumber than the average SUN reader. May Inspector Knacker arrest them all.

    4. Charlie Clark Silver badge
      FAIL

      The people responsible for this threatening behaviour are possibly the saddest people I have EVER come across. This is beyond ridiculous.

      I agree, maybe they'll reconsider and withdraw the trademark application. Oh, you mean the script kiddies who seemingly took down an ISP without much effort? Not very impressive on both sides I'd say but if it was my company I'd be doing my damnedest to make sure there couldn't be a repetition otherwise who is going to want to do business with me?

    5. Gaius
      FAIL

      Yes, you would expect this from Ruby "rockstar ninjas" but not from Python users, who're supposed to be grown-ups.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Problem with grown ups

        Is their language got adopted by kids and companies in the hacking community for security testing, fuzzing and all sorts and exploit code delivery in other dark corners of the web use Python to show POCs.

        It also got adopted by the scientific community so something about it that has mass appeal.

    6. david 12 Silver badge

      This is exactly what I expect from the Python community

      Having spent some time reading the Python newsgroup, asking questions and making suggestions.

      And reading insults from senior members of the community. And getting insulted for asking questions. And getting insulted for making suggestions (which were later adopted in Python 3).

      I spent 5 years in another public newsqroup which was polite and helpful, for a product that had many more users than Python has ever had, so I know it's possible, and it is not just me.

      The Python community, like many other online communities, is a bunch of self-rightious, self-important, imature gits, who still manage to think that they are God's own gift to civilization.

      Sadly, I see several people here defending their behaviour.

      1. Steen Eugen Poulsen

        Re: This is exactly what I expect from the Python community

        The Python community, like many other online communities, is a bunch of self-rightious, self-important, imature gits, who still manage to think that they are God's own gift to civilization.

        You couldn't be more wrong, you simply don't have the brain capacity as a normal person to understand the geek community. The idiot is people like you who don't understand how to forget a post the second after you have read/typed it. You carry around your venom, burning you up.

        I can argue with other geeks and they will still buy me a pint after. The fact I don't drink beer is most likely more an offence than I called them a pile of bantha poodoo.

      2. tony2heads
        Joke

        Re: This is exactly what I expect from the Python community

        Typical of pythonidae:

        "When they feel threatened, many will hiss, ooze a bad-smelling material from the vent area at the beginning of the tail, and possibly strike and/or bite."

    7. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      @Electric Panda

      The sad fact though is that this mob mentality is visible all too often in this business.

      Shall I just say... Apple? Or... Microsoft, perhaps?

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: @Electric Panda

        Or Mozilla or Google or Mysql or OpenOffice

  2. S4qFBxkFFg
    Trollface

    The solution is simple - just change the language's name.

    For example, I believe "Py+hon" isn't trademarked by anyone.

    1. Chad H.

      Re: The solution is simple - just change the language's name.

      We need some sort of authority figure to stop this before it all gets too silly... Sounds like a job for Bicycle Repair Man!

      1. a cynic writes...

        Re: The solution is simple - just change the language's name.

        ahem...Sore point. Monty python is a competing mark.

        1. Kubla Cant

          Re: The solution is simple - just change the language's name.

          My understanding is that the Python language was named after Monty Python. If true, this is a case of pot and kettle.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: The solution is simple - just change the language's name.

            Indeed, the original authors were Monty Python fans.

            The documentation is littered with references to the comedy series.

    2. Lars Silver badge
      Flame

      Re: The solution is simple - just change the language's name.

      The solution is simple - just keep the language's name. And forget about it, or have all been hit by an apple.

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Stop

      Re: The solution is simple - just change the language's name.

      Stop this, your just being too silly.

  3. philbo
    Joke

    I guess they didn't expect..

    ..the Spanish Inquisition

    1. davidp231
      Coffee/keyboard

      Re: I guess they didn't expect..

      NOBODY expects the Spanish Inquisition!

      1. philbo

        Re: I guess they didn't expect..

        Surprise! That is one of our main weapons.

        Surprise, and denial of service attacks.

        (..though if it's Catholic, surely that should be "denial of mass")

    2. John Sanders
      Linux

      Re: I guess they didn't expect..

      The Spanish inquisition!

      Our weapons are tuples, comprehensions iterators and generators... oh wait!

  4. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    When you kick a hornet nest expect to get stung.

    Whether right or wrong.

    If you're in IT and do something as monumentally stupid as trying to usurp the name of a popular technology (particularly a community technology) you're going to piss off a lot of people (some who rarely leave their basements except to fire bomb people that threaten their precious something or another.)

    1. Anonymous Coward
      WTF?

      exactly...

      it must have occurred to them that there would be some slightly unhappy Python language users. OK the the response was a little over the top but then they could always try and trademark something a little less well used - I heard Brainf**k is available - no?

    2. dotdavid
      Facepalm

      The bit I'm failing to understand is why they think they need to trademark Python, and why they thought no-one in a community known for its "passion" wouldn't mind.

      1. Ian McNee
        Holmes

        Perfectly understood...

        @dotdavid: how many of us had heard of Veber before they pulled this stupid stunt? Maybe Veber is not doing so well and some bright spark there says: "Hey I have this brilliant idea to get us some free publicity! You know we own that domain python.co.uk....?" etc.

        There is no proof of this but at best Poultney is being disingenuous:

        Poultney claims he’s only interested in the trademark on the servers. “We are not interested in the trademark on the language,” Poultney told The Reg.

        Well, Mr Poultney, your IPO filing (linked to by a cynic writes... above) says otherwise. And if you want a friendly chat with PSF about this why send your lawyers to talk to them?

        Frankly Poultney/Veber's behaviour has been crass and probably dishonest and he should have known better than to expose his staff to the inevitable response generated by his cynical stunt.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Perfectly understood...

          Actually, having read the filing, I find that PSF is the one being disingenuous.

          The Chairman of the PSF, a blowhard lawyer, knowingly and deliberately posted false and inflammatory information on his blog while representing the PSF. Those false and inflammatory postings lead to criminal action by the PSF's followers.

          Had he done this against a US company and not a UK one, he would likely be served with a criminal complaint.

          He is a lawyer and he should know better - but alas, like most lawyers he thinks that he is above the law. It is a shame that such a fine tool as Python should be tarnished by his actions.

          (Anonymous, because the PSF followers have already shown their propensity towards criminal activity)

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        @dotdavid

        "The bit I'm failing to understand is why they think they need to trademark Python,"

        Me neither, but whatever.

        "and why they thought no-one in a community known for its "passion" wouldn't mind."

        Presumably they don't read The Reg's forums. If they had they'd realise that filing patents justifies any behaviour in the eyes of some people. Shame to see the word "inevitable" being used to mean "It's acceptable - they asked for it, after all." Some people here could only aspire to be pathetic some day.

    3. david 12 Silver badge

      When you kick a hornet nest expect to get stung.

      So the Python geeks have the inteligence and character of wasps? And it was "monumentally stupid" not to know this?

      Normal people expect a normal level of intelligence and social competence. Wasps should be removed if they are a threat.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: When you kick a hornet nest expect to get stung.

        Your normal people are pretty stupid then. Also you seem to fail to understand the concept of a metaphor which I assume explains your definition of normal people. In fact it probably explains why you think that there is such a thing as a normal person.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: When you kick a hornet nest expect to get stung.

        You're also confusing intelligence with behavior and social aptitude. Also confusing social aptitude with behavior... actually you're bundling lots of things together that don't have much to do with each other. You can be an intelligent, socially inept, mass murderer, an intelligent, charismatic mass murderer. a stupid, charismatic, mass murderer, an intelligent charismatic mass murderer, you can be an intelligent, charismatic, nice person, (I think we get the picture.)

        And with tens of thousands of people using the language (who knows how many, lots and lots and lots) only an idiot would believe them all to be nice well adjusted human beings.

  5. Radbruch1929

    European Patent Office?

    "According to the European Patents Office, nobody in Europe currently holds a trademark on Python."

    @Mr. Clarke:

    Could this be the "Office for Harmonization in the Internal Market (Trade Marks and Designs)" in Alicante, Spain, eventually? The European Patent Office is in Munich and concerns itself with patents, not trademarks as far as I understand.

  6. Destroy All Monsters Silver badge
    Coat

    “We are five men and a dog - not a multinational with lawyers. One of the guys is off with stress."

    I wouldn't wish the dog to get stressed out by this flap.

    Dogs got personality. Personality goes a long way.

    1. Euripides Pants
      Thumb Down

      Re: “We are five men and a dog - not a multinational with lawyers."

      Still no excuse for doing something Stupid.

    2. tony2heads
      Trollface

      five men and a dog

      The dog better watch out for pythons!

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lVXlPP1Q9Y0

  7. Will 20

    I was considering using Python for a client for cloud backup solutions. Now the website is dead. That's now not going to happen, and I'm glad that I hadn't signed the contract on behalf the of the client.

    Very nearly VERY embarrassing for our own company too...

  8. Jamie Jones Silver badge
    WTF?

    I can't believe some of you think they should have 'expected' this

    They have had the domain since 1997. I don't agree with them getting any trademark that conflicts with the python language, but there is no excuse for threatening phone calls and emails.

    *prepares to be downvoted by fanbois that don't live in the real world*

    1. Destroy All Monsters Silver badge

      Re: I can't believe some of you think they should have 'expected' this

      "When you step out in front of a truck, the truck needs no excuse." ℠

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: I can't believe some of you think they should have 'expected' this @ Destroy All Monsters

        "When you step out in front of a truck, the truck needs no excuse."

        We are the FOSS brigade, hear us roar. Get on our wrong side and pay the price. Blah blah blah.

        Buffoon.

  9. JDX Gold badge

    Extraordinary

    Nerds using a phone to communicate with customer service? Don't be daft.

    1. NB

      Re: Extraordinary

      Reminds me of this: http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2003/06/30

      :)

  10. jai

    bad advertising

    they're an ISP but they're taken out by a DDoS

    suggests that any sites they host aren't going to be very well protected against DoS's either.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: bad advertising

      They are also supposed to be a hosting and backup site but it took less 30GB traffic to knock them out.

  11. Andrew Halliwell
    FAIL

    OF COURSE they should've expected this.

    They're an ISP, ISP implies a knowledge of the internet.

    Even back when they first registered the pyrhon.co,uk domain, python had quite a presence on the net.

    Beggers belief they even tried registering python, let alone leaving it idle for 15 years before finally deciding to use it. and THEN having the cluelessness to try to trademark the name when they knew full well python the language was much much bigger than they'll ever be.

    That did they expect, hugs and fairy cakes?

    1. Jamie Jones Silver badge
      FAIL

      Re: OF COURSE they should've expected this.

      "That did they expect, hugs and fairy cakes?"

      Really? Death threats? They should have expected death threats?

      Remember, we aren't talking about someone annoying some troll group, but supposed intelligent python programmers, but yeah, threatening phone calls, including death threats, Nice one.

      1. Malcolm Weir Silver badge
        Big Brother

        Re: OF COURSE they should've expected this.

        Remember to account for exaggeration and hyperbole when reading accounts of internet death threats!

        True story: back in the hey-day of the dot-com boom, a girlfriend was one of Yahoo's email support team leads, and had to handle complaints about "death threats", including gems like this:

        "He told me to go jump in the lake AND HE KNOWS I CAN'T SWIM!!!"

        Apparently, that's a death threat...

        Now, I'm in no position to comment on the objective nastiness of The Idiot Poultney's correspondence, but given the disingenuous tone of some of his other remarks ("we're not a multinational with lawyers"... but the lawyers that he claims he doesn't have tried to contact PSF nine times), I would at least entertain the idea that there is some exaggeration for effect going on.

        [ My personal view is that the most sensible solution to have advanced "during the initial flurry of emails" would have been the MOU/Covenant approach, where Veber gets the mark for servers and services, and grants the PSF the right in perpetuity to use the mark for software, possibly even with exclusivity, which would achieve the effect of severing the mark's use for hardware and services from the mark's use for software. If the situation is really as Poultney claims, that would have avoided the whole mess AND possibly opened the door to the PSF paying some of the fees to maintain the mark! ]

        1. Jamie Jones Silver badge
          Thumb Up

          Re: OF COURSE they should've expected this.

          "Remember to account for exaggeration and hyperbole when reading accounts of internet death threats!...."

          :-)

          Fair point, but a few people here have been saying 'they should expect things like that' rather than saying that maybe the story is exaggerated somewhat!

          1. Ian McNee
            Stop

            Re: OF COURSE they should've expected this.

            DAMN! I am fed up of some commenters here generating hysteria around use of the word "expect"!

            "Veber should have expected this response" =/= "It is perfectly OK for a small minority of idiots in the Python community to send abusive e-mails and make abusive phone calls"

            Jamie Jones and others: those of us who used the word "expect" simply EXPECTED that you had the intelligence to see that we were merely pointing out that anyone with a modicum of net savvy could have seen this coming, not that it is in any way justified.

            Let me guess: you're applying for a position at the Daily Wail?

            </pointless_rant>

  12. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    WAAAH!

    "We wanted to claim the name of a well-established programming language and we are totally surprised that that makes people cross"

    I must admit that actual phone calls and death threats (if true...could be a play for more sympathy) are a surprise; but I would have been AMAZED if they hadn't been immediately DDoS'd into oblivion. A webhosting company (by definition a sitting target) is the last business on the planet that wants to be pissing off a large community of programmers. I foresee no more happy hosting for them unless and until they stop with the silly trademark crap.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: WAAAH! @moiety

      "(if true...could be a play for more sympathy)"

      Don't be pathetic.

      "but I would have been AMAZED if they hadn't been immediately DDoS'd into oblivion."

      Says a guy with a silver posting badge on a site populated by FOSS fanatics. Mob mentality, step forward please.

      "A webhosting company (by definition a sitting target) is the last business on the planet that wants to be pissing off a large community of programmers."

      Apparently true, if that community are sad nutters. Do you think any reasonable person on the outside would look at this backlash or the apologists here and give them any support? And IT people are amazed they're held in such contempt.

      Buffoon.

      1. asdf
        Mushroom

        Re: WAAAH! @moiety

        > And IT people are amazed they're held in such contempt.

        Hmm why for having a job even in the worst recession in generations? I would think IT people tend to be thought of a bit better by the public than bankers or likely in your case some middle management ass kissing yes man. Get back to work in your stuffy worn suit, those power point slides with nothing but worthless buzz words won't make itself.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: WAAAH! @Anonymous Coward

          To address your points:

          "(if true...could be a play for more sympathy)"

          I was expressing doubts of the veracity of the claims. DDoS, sure, that's how the internet reacts to asshat moves (such as attempting to force an established programming language to rebrand). Death threats? By phone? Seems considerably less likely.

          "Says a guy with a silver posting badge on a site populated by FOSS fanatics. Mob mentality, step forward please."

          IT. IT fanatics, enthusiasts, and even the odd professional. The whole spectrum; not just FOSS.

          "Apparently true, if that community are sad nutters. Do you think any reasonable person on the outside would look at this backlash or the apologists here and give them any support? And IT people are amazed they're held in such contempt.

          Buffoon."

          In any sufficiently large community there are going to be extremists. 150 messages an hour and a DDoS could be easily arranged by one sufficiently motivated person; and yet you write off the entire community of Python programmers (and me for pointing out how totally unsurprising is the fact that trademark trolls seem to be getting a hard time from the internet). Not to mention everyone working in the IT industry. And that's "..held in contempt by stupid people until their printer needs fixing". Fixed that for you. You're welcome.

          Cocksheath.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: WAAAH! @Anonymous Coward

            "(such as attempting to force an established programming language to rebrand)"

            ...which the company in question did not do. They applied for a trademark - according to them, a trademark unrelated to programming languages. They didn't even *receive it*, let alone *attempt to use it to force a name change*.

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: WAAAH! @Anonymous Coward

              This trademark:

              http://www.ipo.gov.uk/tmcase/Results/4/EU010848208

              ...and the sections they were applying for would have put a serious crimp in the operations of a programming language. Don't know why it's all blowing up now though...are they having another go possibly?

              EDIT: AHA! Just found a post on page 2: " PSF applied for a trade mark on the 6th February 2013 for classes 09, 42 and 16 (packaging). It's being "examined". That explains the 'why now?' part. Also might mean that Veber aren't necessarily the aggressors in this.

            2. Neil Greatorex

              Re: WAAAH! @Anonymous Coward

              @ David W.

              I quite agree, there's been an awful lot of frothing at the mouth here, generally by people who really haven't checked their facts.

              I was also under the impression that Python is the name of a programming language, not a "Brand".

            3. Vic

              Re: WAAAH! @Anonymous Coward

              > according to them, a trademark unrelated to programming languages

              They lied.

              Vic.

  13. Timmay
    Holmes

    If I can't have it, nobody can...

    So if I'm reading it correctly, it looks like so many people are already using the term "Python" in various trademarks all around the world, chances are no one will end up with exclusive use for it, and the world will carry on as before?

    1. Destroy All Monsters Silver badge

      Re: If I can't have it, nobody can...

      So say we all.

    2. jonathanb Silver badge

      Re: If I can't have it, nobody can...

      Well Python (Monty) Pictures Ltd owns this trademark http://www.ipo.gov.uk/tmcase/Results/4/EU008495368 for for a whole list of different things, starting with "non-medicated toilet preparations"

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: If I can't have it, nobody can...

      If I have this straight, it's not the name; but the application as well. So I could trademark 'Python' for a range of hosepipes...no problem. However, the ISP is claiming "the exclusive right to use 'Python' for software, servers, and web services"...and that could definitely put a stick through the PSF's front wheel.

      1. Dave Bell

        Re: If I can't have it, nobody can...

        US Trademark law is different. The PSF would have a prior claim--what gets called a "common law trademark"--that would protect them against a claim such as this one. It's a term that was used by Games Workshop too.

        The European system doesn't have that.

        The lawyers seem almost incompetent to this non-lawyer. Don't they realise that the differences matter?

  14. a cynic writes...
    Coat

    Meanwhile over at ipo.gov.uk...

    I just spent a very interesting 5 minutes looking at the trade mark database. From which I learned:

    There are 13 entries with Python in relating to class 09 (...computers, computer software...) of which 7 are "registered" and one "protected". No, I don't know the difference.

    • PO Box hosting (aka Veber) applied for a trade mark including their logo on 30th April 2012 and it was published May 2012. The application has been "opposed". It's for class 09 (...computers, computer software...) and class 42 (..web services...)

    • PSF applied for a trade mark on the 6th February 2013 for classes 09, 42 and 16 (packaging). It's being "examined".

    It's interesting that the furies were only released this week.

    Meanwhile "Monty Python" is trademarked for classes 03 06 09 14 16 18 21 24 25 26 28 35 38 41 ( you can look them yourself).

    1. Bronek Kozicki

      Re: Meanwhile over at ipo.gov.uk...

      according to PSF application, class 16 as used there is for Printed publications concerning computer programs, computer software and computer programming language. .

    2. vagabondo

      Re: Meanwhile over at ipo.gov.uk...

      I just spent a very interesting ...

      (Me too, but then I stopped to have my tea.)

      The "Monty Python" trademark has expired.

      Class 9 covers all goods technical and scientific, while class 42 is for technical and scientific services.

      Trademarks exist by being used and commonly recognised; they do not have to be registered. However in the case of a dispute, registration is very useful.

      POBox Hosting only filed for their logo NOT the name (text) Python.

      The name Python is registered to Seagate in these categories; specifically relating to computers, but not snakes.

      The PSF have requested to register the name (text) "Python" for anything related to computer programming or software. Surprisingly they have not asked to register their logo.

      These different uses of the name do not seem to me to necessarily exclude each other.

      The uproar seems to have been generated solely in response to the PSF's blog. However if the blog was in fact written by a lawyer, then my natural instinct is to treat it as most likely specious. In my experience lawyers, politicians, and other such shysters have a rhetorical concept of truth; whereas engineers, scientists, and technical folk favour a more mathematical or logical distinction between true and false.

      1. Stevie

        Re: Meanwhile over at ipo.gov.uk...

        "Surprisingly they have not asked to register their logo."

        Probably because it was nicked off the side of some Mesoamerican pyramid or stele. It sure looks like it.

        The endless grinding Monty Python "jokes", "references", explanations of the "jokes" in case you were so shirt thick you didn't get the point and expansions of the "references" cross indexing them to the "jokes" - all instead of getting on with showing me the bloody language - was what made me ignore this eminently ignorable language for years. I figured if the people behind the language couldn't even write a fucking manual that was readable there was little hope for the language itself being a write-home affair. I only started looking at it again because I bought a Pi.

        I think it's funny that a modern language has significant whitespace. I thought everyone knew that was a Bad Idea by 1978, the year I got started in IT.

        1. david 12 Silver badge

          significant whitespace

          >I think it's funny that a modern language has significant whitespace.

          >I thought everyone knew that was a Bad Idea by 1978, the year I got started in IT.

          1978 was a year in which everyone knew that having significant whitespace was a Good idea.

          And implicit declarations where a Bad idea:

          DO 100 I = 1.100

          Which is why all languages (C, C++, Lisp, Java, Forth etc ) after FORTRAN have syntactically significant whitespace, and many required explicit declarations

          1978 was a year in which everybody knew that FIXED FORMAT was a bad idea, but even so, it turns out the 80-column text wasn't such a bad idea after all (count the characters here, brother)

          *If I remember correctly, that FORTRAN snippit implicitly declares a variable DO100I of type Double, and assigns the value 1.1 to it. The programmers intention was to have a loop construct.

  15. CadentOrange
    Facepalm

    Duplicitous or naive?

    "Poultney claims he’s only interested in the trademark on the servers. “We are not interested in the trademark on the language,” Poultney told The Reg."

    So, what does someone mean when they say "I have a Python web app"? Do they mean it's written in Python? Do they mean that it's hosted on the Python web servers? Hell, what does a Python web server mean? Do they mean something like Tornado which is a web server written in Python or do they mean a web server hosted by these guys?

    Something doesn't sit right here. These guys are either being very duplicitous or naive.

    1. Neil Greatorex

      Re: Duplicitous or naive?

      I've never met anyone who has declaimed "I have a Python web app" (presumably followed by breathing on their knuckles and polishing them on their Christmas cardie) has anyone else here?

      PS If, when someone exclaims "I have a Python web app" & you are unable to immediately ascertain, from the choices/options you mention, what the FTG means - try asking - he'll surely explain in excruciating detail.

  16. Kubla Cant
    Facepalm

    Why is this important?

    It's a programming language, not a bloody religion. Imagine if people who use C were to get steamed up in the same way. They'd be spamming disk drive manufacturers and digging up the former head of the Secret Service.

    I use several programming languages, and frankly I couldn't give a stuff who trademarks any of their names. These people should get a life.

    1. ElReg!comments!Pierre
      FAIL

      Re: Why is this important?

      Google "powered by python", for a start. Presto, about 84 900 webpages that need rewriting. Of course the language will need to change name also, as surely distributing "computer software" that has a name in violation of a trademark is a no-no.

      "Imagine if people who use C were to get steamed up in the same way. They'd be spamming disk drive manufacturers and digging up the former head of the Secret Service."

      Ridiculous claim. I didn't see Seagate trademarking the name "C" for computer programs. Does the former head of the Secret service hold such a trademark? I didn't think so.

      "I use several programming languages, and frankly I couldn't give a stuff who trademarks any of their names."

      That's because you do not understand the implications.

      "These people should get a life."

      You should get a clue

    2. Anonymous Coward
      WTF?

      Re: Why is this important?

      > ...and frankly I couldn't give a stuff who trademarks any of their names.

      That will be great for you until the websites that these languages use are forced off the net by legal force.

    3. JEDIDIAH
      Linux

      Re: Why is this important?

      Theft is theft. These j*ck*sses are trying to take ownership of something that is not theirs to take. The fact that it might not be anyone's to take at all just makes the situation WORSE. This is the worst kind of virtual land grab. If it is allowed to stand then all manner of people and corporations will be subject to bogus litigation and completely unecessary extra costs.

      Taking from the public domain is as much theft as "piracy". More so even.

  17. Rusty 1
    Joke

    Nasty, very very nasty

    Those French and German silent calls are so nasty.

    I received a silent call a while ago and still recall that moment when I chillingly realised there was a mute mainland European on the other end. There was a harrowing Franco-Germanic malevolence in the utter silence.

    It was weeks before I could suffer a moment of sobriety after that.

    1. Charlie Clark Silver badge

      Re: Nasty, very very nasty

      It was weeks before I could suffer a moment of sobriety after that.

      What's sobriety and is it contagious?

      1. Red Bren
        Pint

        Re: Nasty, very very nasty

        "What's sobriety and is it contagious?"

        It's a terrible affliction, highly contagious and I'm going to patent the cure...

  18. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Friends don't let friends....

    Allow their marketing group to select the name for products BY THEMSELVES.

    It wouldn't be the first time that I have had to explain to the marketing group why their particular product name of choice is going to make several highly paid lawyers (I mean large companies) froth at them.

    This seems like the company having already spent their change on PYTHON didn't bother talking to their IT people..whom are probably familiar with python.

  19. Will Godfrey Silver badge
    Unhappy

    Disappointing all round

    The idiots attacking these numpties with DDOS and threatening calls are just giving all of the rest of us a bad name. No winners here.

  20. asdf
    FAIL

    sad all around

    I don't know what is worse with modern society, the complete breakdown in civility towards each other or the massive virtual land grab where everyone is a brand and has to own everything including other's genes, math solutions often written by others (software concepts for example), and even common words people have often used for centuries.

    1. Steven Roper

      Re: sad all around

      The complete breakdown in civility is a direct result of anger and rage at the insatiable greed behind the massive virtual land grab you refer to. The two are related; civility fails when greed prevails.

      1. Chris Rowland

        Re: sad all around

        If you do something bad then YOU are bad. Claiming that you did something bad because someone else did so first is not acceptable. It's understandable if you are less than about 5 but still not acceptable.

        It's what being civilised means.

  21. Mr Young
    Coat

    Good God!

    I actually prefer spellin pedants compared to this...Please! You There! Help Our Nouns?

  22. perlcat

    Poor slobs.

    Here we have another sad tale of two groups that forgot that it's "Pillage *then* burn."

  23. Domino
    Holmes

    DDOS?

    I wonder if it's a confirmed DDOS or just all the traffic they attracted with the worldwide press coverage.. I know I spent awhile looking around their sites trying to find out if their dedicated hosting listed python-the-language as being included, so at least a few hundred K is my fault..

  24. mickey mouse the fith

    Confused

    I dont get this bit....

    " claiming the exclusive right to use 'Python' for software, servers, and web services - everywhere in Europe.”

    Why do they want such overreaching rights? they dont appear to be in the software biz, just web hosting, so why try and grab the software rights as well?, am i missing something here or is this just a nasty land grab?

    And I think the guys lying about the death threats and phone calls, I cant believe anyones pathetic enough to do that over something like a programming language name.

    One wonders why they waited until now to do this as well considering the url has laid fallow since the 90`s.

    Python is a programming language in the context of I.T. Hopefully common sense will prevail and this hosting company will fail in its endevour and never be heard of again.

  25. JaitcH
    Stop

    intellectual property lawyer for Texan legal firm, and describes himself as PSF's counsel

    Does he even have a UK lawyers operating papers.

    Some Americans think just because they meet US requirements they can practice anywhere.

  26. Bitbeisser
    WTF?

    And now for something completely different...

    http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2013/02/130219-florida-pythons-hunting-animals-snakes-invasive-science/

  27. Dominic Connor, Quant Headhunter

    The CEO is a moron

    Veber is an ISP, ie a technology led business, it's not a newsagent or hairdresser, but the CEO freely admits that he didn't bother involving the technology people in his business in this startlingly dumb decision.

    His unfitness to run a business is that he thinks he is running a business, he's not, he's doing a job.

    Doing any job properly means that that you get others to cover the holes that we alll have in our understanding, but he doesn't understand that his job should involve involving people who understand things in decision making, not just chat with his accountant and sales people. He would not try and get the tax authorities angry at him because as someone who thinks he "runs a business" he understands that to be irrational, but because he didn't involve technologists in "business" decisions he pissed of the tech community and as the DDos et al show unlike the HMRC some of them don't regard the law as a boundary.

    Python supporters shouldn't DDoS him, though if he'd bothered to lower himself and actually talk to a a techie they'd have told him that this would happen and worse.

    If I was a shareholder of Veber, I would be looking for a new CEO, if he is so reluctant to talk to his own staff on this matter, it would tell me that there were other important issues that he could not manage because of his reluctance to talk to IT people.

    If I was a customer, I'd be looking for a new ISP, not to support the Python people, because the CEO is making decisions that he doesn't understand and I would not want to be sucked into the consequences.

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