back to article The Sinofsky Letters: Defenestrated Windows overlord corresponds

Last year when Windows 8 Developer Preview shipped, a British techie found a few usability problems. Why not take it to top? This correspondence followed. Enjoy. From: D Sent: Friday, September 16, 2011 8:45 AMTo: Steven Sinofsky Subject: Hi Steve,   Hello Steven,   I thought I better help. http://www.ghacks.net/2011/09 …

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  1. Trevor_Pott Gold badge

    "Do you honestly think I come to work and say to myself “how can I kill [D] and offer him a death by a thousand cuts”?"

    No, Steven, I think that you designed an operating system with nobody but the consumer in mind. Professionals of various stripes were seen as "the edges of the bell curve." By not being "the majority," providing the tools they need to do work efficiently and without impediment is not a priority: building an operating system geared towards easy consumption of content is.

    There is validity to the argument that "you can buy third-party tools to modify Windows." XYPlorer for explorer, Classic Shell for the Start Menu, Firefox or Chrome to get a real browser. I think, however, that this misses the point. By not having proper tools - which you used to have, just by the by - embedded into the base operating system, professionals are denied the ability to use workstations belonging to others.

    In a sane and rational world, given the technology available to us here in 2012, this wouldn't be a problem. We would use solutions similar to VDI to solve this issue; we could have a cloud-based user experience migration tool, or even full blown-drag-the-screen-across-RDP VDI. Unfortunately, Microsoft's glorious please-kill-them-with-fire licensing department demands a difficult-to-find number of virgins to be sacrificed at equinoxes into even more rare volcanoes before you are allowed to do anything.

    Any you'll pay a yearly subscription with a 6-year TCO nearly five times the buy-to-own fee to do it.

    Microsoft wants to be on every machine, and take a significant rake from that presence. They want a fee if you use their stuff remotely, and a different one if you use it under different circumstances. They want a fee if you don't use their stuff and a different fee if there is a combination of stuff in play. They really – really – don't want you under any circumstances to use VDI. Have you tried touch? There's this nice Surface…

    The issue with this, of course, is that your now fondle-friendly consumptive* operating system if absolute fucking pants at anything approaching user experience migration excepting under some very specific and carefully massaged circumstances. If you're part of a domain, there's a good pipe, storage with adequate IOPS, all your apps are certified (and even then, chicken entrails are required,) you have your GPOs, third-party wrappers and so forth set up…you might be able to take your desktop, apps, configuration, look-and-feel, third-party explorer apps, Classic Shell and so forth with you from physical endpoint to physical endpoint.

    Congratulations, Microsoft, you have successfully failed to live up to the standards of mounting /home/%username% on a remote system, or using bloody rsync properly.

    15 years after you started trying.

    But lo! You are the monopoly, you don't have to worry about these bell curve edges. They are but rounding errors, grouchy internet commenters and so forth, no? Analysts will flock to your cause and cheer you on because you have targeted "the majority" with an operating system that removes the barriers of "thinking" and replaces them with an excellent tool to consume both of the pieces of content you have managed to secure for distribution on Xbox live. Hookers and blow for everyone!

    Well that's great, Steve. I know you didn't walk into work every day trying to ruin D – or my, or anyone else's – day. We just didn't matter to you. We don't matter to your replacement, your former boss or the overwhelming majority of people who work there.

    We're nerds. Professionals. We have these weird needs and angsty desires to get shit done. It's amazing how much of a pain in the ass that is, because when someone doesn't provide us the tools to do something, we build the fucking things ourselves.**

    We don't matter on the balance sheet. Yet.

    Very soon here, however, you're going to be reminded of what happens when you let engineers design a tool to increase productivity and save end users money. Once the world is reminded why it was we made these damned computers in the first place, the Microsoft, Apple and the rest of you geniuses that let "user interface experts" take control…you folks are fucked.*

    * Consume what, exactly? You can't get licences for the digital enjoyment of fucking anything. Especially if you live in Canada, where the few pitiful things that are on offer to Americans – streaming only at some ungodly price, natch – "aren't available in your region."

    ** When a vendor gives you lemons, don’t make lemonade. Make the vendor take the lemons back! Get mad! I don’t want your damn lemons, what the hell am I supposed to do with these? Demand to see life’s manager! Make life rue the day it thought it could give a sysadmin lemons! Do you know who I am? I’m the man who’s gonna burn your business model down! With the lemons! I’m gonna get my engineers to invent a product that does what yours does in a third the time with a tenth the effort for half the price.

    ***Lots of people are going to moan "it's impossible to challenge Microsoft" or some other such tosh. Bull. If enough of the right people are irritate enough, you'd be surprised exactly how fast a decent competitor can spring up. Even for an operating system. Ask Research In Motion, Novell or Yahoo about the permanence of market dominance and the lack of incentive for innovation some day, hmmm?

    1. Alain
      Thumb Up

      Trevor, this has to be the best comment I've read on El Reg for quite a while. Thanks for the reading.

      I could I written every word of it, except I couldn't (English isn't my native language).

      You've perfectly summarised the amount of frustration we've reached, us IT professionals, seeing our everyday work tool becoming less and less usable. We are sacrificed by MS because we are considered as not significant compared to the consumer masses. Someday this timebomb will explode in their faces, or so I hope.

      1. Arctic fox
        Thumb Up

        @Alain "this has to be the best comment I've read on El Reg for quite a while"

        I agree entirely. Even though I am not anywhere near as dissatisfied with Win 8 as Trevor clearly is I will happily say that that post was one of the most intelligent, well argued and constructive that I have seen here at El Reg concerning Win8. I am so piss-tired of the "contributions" from the "Gold Card Members of the Anti-Microsoft Choral Howling Society" that I do not know where to begin to describe my feelings. However, this kind of post is another kettle of fish entirely. This kind of post is a real contribution to the debate and I personally felt that I learnt something from it. Major thumbs up to Trevor for that.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Windows

      So _that's_ why Sinofsky walked

      Trevor actually sent him that comment a week ago. Sinofsky had MS Corporate Services bring him a bottle of whiskey and a large mirror to sit on his desk, then spent the rest of the afternoon with calls diverted and the blinds drawn...

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Damned Good Stuff, Trevor.

      What they don't seem to remember is that it is not just nerds that copy a file from one place to another. Very un-nerdy accounts clerks have heaps of them, and an ever growing number of of people are organising their movies and their music on their home machines.

      If MS really think that half-decent GUI file management is nerd stuff, the end is nearer than I thought.

      1. Trevor_Pott Gold badge

        Re: Damned Good Stuff, Trevor.

        All I can see is a fist full of typos resulting from rolling my face around on the keybaord in rage at stupid o'clock in the morning. Proof reading. I should do it some time...

        1. Trevor_Pott Gold badge

          Re: Damned Good Stuff, Trevor.

          And then I typoed the typo comment. SONOFA...

        2. Chemist

          Re: Damned Good Stuff, Trevor.

          Never mind Trevor - it's the thought that counts - well done !

          1. Anonymous Custard
            Pint

            Re: Damned Good Stuff, Trevor.

            Indeed, they kinda add to it in a way.

            Brings up the mental image of someone so irate and fuming at the whole thing that they can't even type properly.

            The only other thing I would say is that being here in the comments of the original article may hide this beauty from people who don't generally bother to look in the peanut gallery. The thing deserves to be a full article in itself as a proper follow-up!

            1. Trevor_Pott Gold badge

              "Deserves to be a full article in itself as a proper follow-up."

              I've written several. Nobody cares. (Isn't that the point?) I'll probably report it on http://www.trevorpott.com after I'm done writing this Server 2012 thingy....

              1. Anonymous Coward
                Anonymous Coward

                Re: I've written several. Nobody cares.

                Come on El REg! Publish this as an article!

        3. Anonymous Coward
          Headmaster

          Re: The typos

          Teacher says... Just sometimes what you have to say is more important than spelling, punctuation and grammar.

    4. Mikel
      Holmes

      ** Applause **

      Nicely done! Icon is for you.

    5. Irongut

      Flame Of The Year!

      All it needs is a sentence in all caps and it would be prefect. ;)

      Actually perfectly relevant and correct, sumarises my thoughts on Win8.

  2. Efros
    Thumb Up

    Another

    Example of 'this is how it's going to be done' no matter what the feedback is. Using Ubuntu on a number of machines I got used to Tabbed file browsing and began to miss it when I found myself in a windows environment. Enter QTTabBar, freeware and works in Vista, 7 and 8. gives you tabbed browsing and works a treat.

  3. adeC

    up arrow

    Fantastic, I've been using windows 8 for a week or so now hadn't even noticed the up arrow was back, losing it had to be the worst thing introduced in windows 7. Thank you to who ever persuaded them to put it back, from this email interchange I can see that it must has been a hard job. 3rd party file manager? Are we going back to the days of 3rd party TCP/IP stacks?

  4. Fihart

    Windows Explorer

    I was shocked when XP demoted Windows Explorer to an Accessory as most veteran users would consider it an essential. I much prefer to use WE than My Computer as the latter starts programs, often when I don't intend to.

    Solution is to manually place Windows Explorer back on the Start Menu or create a Desktop shortcut to it.

    Windows8 developers not understanding the importance of tiling Windows vertically to most (?) users, demonstrates that there's little hope for Win8 being adopted, except reluctantly.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Windows Explorer

      Win + E works pretty well too.

      But to show how much MS developers are clueless, try putting the task bar on either side of the Window, and watch how the UI struggles in pretending it's still at the bottom.

      I always keep my task bar on the left side of the window, as this is the only way in which you can actually see more than four windows at a time.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Windows Explorer

      there's little hope for Win8 being adopted, except reluctantly.

      The whole point is that MS doesn't give a damn about our reluctance: why bother with such petty details when you have OEM deals with virtually every manufacturer and that your product, no matter how bad it is, will be forced upon users anyway?

      No wonder that Sinofsky's my way or the highway attitude made him so successful inside MS since that's exactly what their customer relationship policy is about.

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Windows Explorer

      "Solution is to manually place Windows Explorer back on the Start Menu or create a Desktop shortcut to it."

      Or hit Super-E when you need it...

    4. Khaptain Silver badge
      Holmes

      Re: Windows Explorer

      Honestly there is no excuse for not learning the shortucts for basic system commands

      Win = Start Menu

      Win + E = Windows Explorer

      Win + R = Run

      Win + D = Show the Desktop

      These are just the basic everday shortcuts using the Windows Key..... The start menu has its role but the shortcuts should not be forgotten,,,,, I try and teach them to all of our staff, they have a complete list though, especially the Ctrl+X,C,V,F,A,Z which are highlighted and in bold ( ctrl+b).......

      1. Fihart

        Re: Windows Explorer, my excuse......

        .....for not using Win key is I don't have one.

        Still using IBM PS2 keyboard from 1985 -- unmatched feel and (self-evident) durability.

        1. Khaptain Silver badge

          Re: Windows Explorer, my excuse......

          And you are probably running the a 386dx and understand the following lines

          DEVICE=C:\Windows\HIMEM.SYS

          DOS=HIGH,UMB

          DEVICE=C:\Windows\EMM386.EXE NOEMS

          LH C:\Windows\COMMAND\MSCDEX.EXE /D:123

          Seriously though, there are some nice keyboards today and the windows key is actually really damned usefull...

          Shame that my Thinkpad never had one

          or alternatively for the Linux Ladies

          xev | gawk '/keycode/{if($0!=l)printf "0x%x\n",$4;l=$0;}'

          ( et voila you have thewindows key)

          1. Fihart

            Re: Windows Explorer, my excuse......@ Khaptain

            You're almost right. I certainly used the same keyboard with a 386/40. And, yes, I can almost remember all that HIMEM and UMB stuff. In fact, I bought my first PC in 1985.

      2. Seele
        Big Brother

        Re: Windows Explorer

        @Khaptain

        Or in the case of Sinofski, Ctrl+freak.

      3. Michael Wojcik Silver badge

        Re: Windows Explorer

        Honestly there is no excuse for not learning the shortucts for basic system commands

        Here's an excuse: I almost never use Explorer, and I can't remember the last time I needed "Show the Desktop". With Vista and 7, Ctrl-Esc is equivalent to Win-R; for XP Ctrl-Esc followed by R does the job.

        Not everyone is exactly like you.

    5. Sirius Lee

      Re: Windows Explorer

      Come on, there are lots of problems with Windows but this is not one of them. Click with the right mouse button on the 'Start' button and select 'explorer' from the popup menu. The only difference is that you click on the Start button with the right to display a context menu not the left mouse button to display the start menu.

      Ergonomically, using the right mouse button it's even easier because the mouse doesn't need to travel as far to find the 'explorer' menu. Oh, and in Win 7 you are able to pin the Explorer icon to the task bar.

      1. Fihart

        Re: Windows Explorer @ Sirius Lee

        Brill. Didn't know that. Now I do and will use it.

  5. Bush_rat
    Meh

    3rd Party

    If that's their opinion on Explorer, perhaps I should get a 3rd party OS.

  6. Jemma

    Symptom of a bigger problem...

    I feel a little sorry for Sinofsky - after all if you walk into work to a torrent of *that* in your inbox you'd soon get to the state where the only two options were to walk away or wire Ballmers balls to the three-phase and turn it on, or trigger the EMP in his car just as he hits the off ramp... The possibilities are endless and appealing.

    But its all a sign of a bigger problem and yet again its the US to blame. When I was a kid you bought something you were something called a customer (remember them?) with the rights and respect accorded pursuant thereof. Companies didnt raise their customers prices 45% on the sly (yes I mean you SSE), they didnt prank call their customers for a laugh and they certainly didnt make it company policy to annoy as many members of the human race as possible by ignoring their customers like Microsoft appear to be doing (bar possibly British Leyland). When you asked a company to do something there was a good chance they'd do it - because a happy customer is a good customer and a good customer is worth their weight in gold, or at least they used to be.

    Now we're 'consumers' and good customer service is about as respected as Jill-me Savile. Its ok to raise prices for customers on the sly by 40% and then openly do it by another 10%. Its fine to put peoples lives at risk with unsafe vehicles and only do something about it after 30 odd people are dead, injured or permanantly maimed. Its company practice to ignore users repeated requests for an OS that doesnt make Mickey Mouse look positively user friendly and feature rich. Telling a 'consumer' that something is free and then charging them to make the product usable is fine too...

    Why? Because there is a deliberate disconnect in many companies between the meaning of the word customer and the word consumer. In their mind a customer has their own mind, requirements and rights (which needless to say is a bad thing). A consumer on the other hand is a mindless drone who will swallow anything barfed in their general direction - notwithstanding price, fitness for purpose or anything else (thank you Jobs et al).

    You never hear the term 'consumer service' do you? Strange that until you think that if a company calls their customers consumers and keeps customer service they can use it as an excuse to do nowt when the car they sold cooks a family in an accident because of a brake design fault... Not our problem, they never told consumer service/theyre consumers not customers...

    Put simply it boils down to 'if we dont call them customers, then we dont have to treat them as such'.

    I get the impression that Sinofsky was old fashioned in that sense and having person after person rail at him from every side as a result of Ballmers decisions and other considerations - im not surprised he called it a day. I think theres also an element of getting out while the getting's good. I think he knows just how bad Windows 8 is going to bomb... And with features like printing & network printing seeping into Android MS simply cannot afford a pup right now. Thats over and above public relations triumphs like the 'does 16gb free = 32gb debate'. Fair enough, 16gb phone with 14gb free is one thing - advertising something as having a given capacity when the available is 50% less is something different.

    We are your customers people, hear us roar (or at least do us the courtesy of listening to us whinge, you'll benefit in the long run).

    1. Rampant Spaniel

      Re: Symptom of a bigger problem...

      I'm not sure 'we' are their intended customers anymore. A pc is a tool for me, to others it is a portal for entertainment and a method of communicating. MS have clearly shifted their priority away from the former, towards the latter. They haven't made it unuseable as a tool, just when there was a choice to be made, they favoured a consumer over a worker. They probably did the maths and thats where they feel they need to win.

      Luckily it's no huge problem OS X and any number of nix variants will do the job and vmware running win 7 takes care of any legacy programs.

  7. Buzzword

    Norton Commander

    Basically what we want for managing files is something like the old Norton Commander. Two panes (three on a widescreen monitor), quick tabbing between them, quick file preview, quick editing. And we want it all built in to the OS, not a $17.99 App Store purchase. Ballmer, make it so!

    1. Tim99 Silver badge
      Happy

      Re: Norton Commander

      I started managing DOS networks with Norton Commander. Now I am retired I use Midnight Commander on Debian or OS X, because it still works well. I can use one window on a local drive, and the other on FTP.

    2. Anomalous Cowturd
      Holmes

      XTree Gold?

      Now that was a decent file manager. And it would run off a 1.4M floppy!

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: XTree Gold?

        Explorer++ isn't bad and it's free. That's what I use on Win7.

      2. StuartMcL

        Re: XTree Gold?

        ZTree Win only takes up about 4MB on a USB Drive and feels just like Xtree Gold - it's still my FM of choice.

      3. davemcwish

        Re: XTree Gold?

        I'll join the old farts club and highlight Total Commander. OK it's like the rest but in sync'ing My Documents with my backup device it just works.

      4. ZAM

        Re: XTree Gold?

        I remember back in the late 80s the joy of finding XTree Gold. :) Damn . . . I guess that makes me an old fart :(

    3. Stephen 10

      Re: Norton Commander

      There's always Directory Opus at gpsoft.com.au - 22 years on from the Amiga original and still going...

  8. John H Woods Silver badge

    Qdir portable...

    Not saying it in anyway means that the O/S provider shouldn't have had proper explorer functionality, but I get round it by keeping a copy of this handy. I think M/S and even some of the Linux Distros could learn a lot from how this great piece of Windows software works.

  9. Piro Silver badge

    I'd say way more than half of the reaction to Metro is negative

    But that reaction never factored into what Microsoft did with the product, even though they claimed they were listening.

  10. Will Godfrey Silver badge
    Unhappy

    If you want to see how far we've gone backwards stick a copy of DR-DOS on a modern computer (bit of a fiddle, but do-able) and run some stuff on it. Then weep at how much more productive and responsive it is than anything on any modern OS. And yes, that include Linux.

  11. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Idea

    So, Steven Sinofsky has left Microsoft and Scott Forstall has left Apple. They were both in charge of their companies O/S.

    They could collaborate and form a new company that could produce a new, radical O/S [does anyone remember Pink / Taligent ?] - either they would produce the best O/S in the world or they would kill each other.

    1. Jason Hall

      Re: Idea

      I thought they may have already collaborated secretly on Ubuntu?

  12. ScottME
    WTF?

    Vote with your feet, people!

    No-one forces you to "upgrade" to the latest version of Windows (well, not for a few years anyway), and if it's all really so bad, there are flavours of Linux that will feel far more like home than the latest brainfarts from Redmond. I just don't comprehend why folks bother to take issue with what Windows has become.

    I haven't used it for anything productive in over three years, and I absolutely don't miss it. No way would I go back.

    1. P. Lee

      Re: Vote with your feet, people!

      Consumers can, and if Apple's success is anything to go by, do. I see far more personal machines with a fruity logo than one with panes.

      However, when the next version of outlook and windows management software only works with W8, corporates will just go with it, because the unseen cost of a some lost productivity is easier to deal with than missing features. Drop too far behind on your licensing and you'll lose cheap upgrade options.

      Change is very expensive for a corporate. That isn't helped by simplistic cost modelling (employees or transaction-rate x hours-a-service-isn't-available=cost) which doesn't take "working around the problem" into consideration.

      The lock-in is one reason I wouldn't recommend starting a business on windows. Use it tactically if you need to, but keep the strategy unix (be that mac, bsd or linux).

      The W7 control panel is an abomination. Its full of things which have no meaning. What is "System"? Does that include your network connection or services? Is remote access a service or part of the system?

      1. Fihart

        Re: Vote with your feet, people!

        You hit the nail on the head. Many people I know have migrated from Windows to Apple. Younger ones who already have iPods and iPhones go straight to a Mac computer. As they come into the workforce, Corporates may find it less traumatic to dump Microsoft.

  13. Interceptor
    Alert

    I have never wanted, nor needed, Explorer or any other tree-based file managers. I loved noodling around in Workbench and was flabbergasted that people would slap DOPUS on top of the Amiga's elegant desktop system and felt the same way when "friends" would grab my PC for whatever nefarious purpose (when I finally got one in the mid 90s after C= died) and immediately blow up Explorer and proceed to lecture me on why it was better than <whatever>.

    BUT

    With that said? Regardless of whether you still want to use Norton Commander in Windows API clothing or whatever, Metro is and always will be trash. It's about as much fun to navigate as a Tiger Electronics game.com, and about as colorful, too. My sincere hope is that I'll wake up in 2015 and MS won't be trying to force-feed me Windows 2000 running in four-color safe mode like they are at present - or rather, like they aren't until they can come up with an actual and compelling Direct-X to try and make me leave 7 at gunpoint.

    Windows 8, you are trash to me. Just not in the same way as most other folks here.

  14. Wallyb132
    FAIL

    downgrade rights

    Microsoft wouldnt have to worry about downgrade rights if they would quit making each version of windows worse than the last....

  15. Wallyb132
    WTF?

    Trevor...

    Your comment was spoken like a man whos walked in my shoes...

    Windows 7 works well for me, Its fast, stable and hard to break... why microsoft thought it was a good idea to step away from that is beyond me. when i read the headline last week about sinofsky's departure, i cheered! I didnt even bother read the article, i didnt need to. i didnt need to know the reason, just the fact that it happened was good enough for me.

    I am in a position similar to many others who read this website, i am the one people in my world come to for information about technology. i am the one who they ask about what to use, what works and how to fix things that dont. when people ask me about windows 8, i simply tell them i dont know, i used it long enough to figure out how to put the start menu back in, and to restore aeroglass, then i shut down the VM it was running on and haven't started it since. i see no compelling reason to even bother with it, because unless they need the metro UI, people in my world wont be using it, so there really is no point in working with it, period.

    I have had people purchase new computers and bring them to me and ask me to fix the UI, so i formatted the machines and installed Windows 7! I then explained to them that that was the only fix available...

  16. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Success beckons ?

    Windows 7 upgrade prices were far too high. I had a PC with Vista Ultimate and to upgrade was nearly as expensive as buying a new fully blown copy of Windows 7 Ultimate.

    Microsoft are pricing Windows 8 at a far more reasonable level. So, on the consumer side, they will get traction.

    The company I'm working for provides new PCs with Windows XP on them. Give Windows 8 six months to bed in and I think you'll see consumers upgrade and within another 6 months companies will start.

    All that said - I've yet to try it.

    1. Jemma

      Re: Success beckons ?

      Wow. To paraphrase futurama "they have an IT department in the nuthouse?". Are you on 24 exorcist watch in case you suddenly morph into a bald American with anger issues and start vomiting up half digested Windows 8 marketing blurb?

      I'd be calling the police if I saw you walking round the place holding a plastic spoon, let alone if I saw you near any electronics.

      I hear that the israelis are advertising on linkedin for a "baby/RPG interaction specialist" for a recent "project" they've started. It sounds like you'd be perfect for the position...

    2. Piro Silver badge

      Re: Success beckons ?

      Haha, you might want to try it before you think it's any good.

  17. Hooksie

    Dinosaurs

    Why don't you all just shuffle off back to 1985 where you were clearly happiest. I'm surprised that Mr Sinofsky replied at all to such a terse and clearly wanky email. And I genuinely don't see what the fuck he's complaining about. The explorer changes in Win 7 were great, you didn't have to go back 3 layers, just click on the address bar where you want to go back to and it lists the directory structure below that. And as for right click on start and select Control Panel in Windows 8, or just hit the windows key and type con and its the first thing that comes up, how is that rucking difficult?? It's not, it's just that all of you fucktards can't be bothered to find a new way of doing things. Will Godfrey, DR-DOS? Seriously? Give Dignitas a call for fucks sake, time for you to go beddy-bies.

    As a 10 year IT professional I'm used to everything changing and having to catch up with it, you lot clearly haven't, especially the twat with the 20 year old keyboard. It's not Microsoft's fault that you're a cheap ass whiny bitch, don't blame them for you not having a Windows key. Mr Potts, I understand you have genuine concerns and the issues you raise around licensing are spot on but you have to remember that if Microsoft DID provide everything then developers would be out of a job and the EU would nail their balls to a post in Paris. Remember the whole 'you can't include a browser in the OS' stuff?

    Seriously, you people are all finished if you don't keep up with the changes. Linux can suck my hairy balls for anything OTHER than professional or asbergers sufferers to use and Apple can't even design an email client that allows to attach more than one picture at a time for fucks sake. We don't use Windows 95 anymore so get on board or get the fuck off the train cos it's moving on whether you want it to or not.

    Bunch of whiny fucking children.

    1. LordBrian
      FAIL

      Re: Dinosaurs

      I am going to guess your a 10 year old boy/girl with too much sugar because most if not all of what you wrote is complete rubbish.

      This site is for grown ups, you want/need Fisher Price - or the Windows 8 Metro interface.

      1. Hooksie

        Re: Dinosaurs

        Grown ups my arse. Most if not all of what I wrote was wrong? Like what? Examples please?

    2. Tank boy
      Mushroom

      @Hooksie Re: Dinosaurs

      I think you missed the point. Change for something better is usually a good change. Change just for the sake of change usually isn't.

      Polishing the turd for the sake of making more money, while admirable for the people making it, is almost always a bad thing for the users.

      1. Hooksie

        Re: @Hooksie Dinosaurs

        What you have to remember though is that this is stage 1 of a long process for Microsoft. They are trying to consolidate 3 use cases into one code base with laptops/desktops, tablets and phones all having the same look, feel and development process. This will inevitably lead to compromises but its the level of the compromise and what gains you get that are the trade off. For example, as a developer it must be satisfying to know that you can write one app that will reach across all three of those platforms without the need to recode. For a user it means that you can buy an app for your desktop and use it on your tablet and phone seamlessly. This can only be a good thing.

        But yes, some of the element of TIFKAM can be annoying, Windows update doesn't show optional updates by default, opening a PDF in the built in PDF reader is pants, the picture viewer is a bit gash if you don't have your libraries set up etc. BUT, you also get hugely improved performance, faster start up and restore times, built in PC rebuilding for when things go totally tits up, synced setting across all you devices (if you want) and the ability to customise the UI to what makes you most productive. For example, on my work PC the ModernUI start is littered with RSAT and server based admin stuff as well as my office apps but they are also pinned to the taskbar so I rarely have to go into to ModernUI. At home though it's all different and the IE, games, El Reg, BBC apps are all to the fore with live tiles showing me all the stuff from Facebook etc and eventually Twitter or whatever.

        You also get hugely improved Task Manager, much better reporting and event viewer information as well as many other under the hood improvements that make this version of Windows even faster than 7 was. I just get so irked that people overlook all of this and go for the "aargh, it's different, I'm scared" viewpoint. As I've said in other posts it's not for everyone and it's certainly not for me to tell you if 8 is better for you or not but for the love of all that's holy can we avoid knee jerk reactions and I'll informed content from people who have never even used it? Let's not forget that even though people slag off Vista it's that same code that runs Windows 7 and Server 2008, both of which are rightly lauded. And guess what's under the hood in Windows 8? on, guess....

    3. Doug Bostrom

      Re: Dinosaurs

      And if Faber-Castell decides your pencil will henceforth be in the shape of a pretzel, be a Marine, suck it up, go with the flow. By all means, don't look for another pencil vendor.

    4. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Dinosaurs

      Ah-hah, here's the thing - most of us can and will use all the new ways of doing things - but that has absolutely nothing to do with whether you like it or not.

      If you're fed a shit sandwich for long enough, you might grow tolerant of the taste, but it doesn't mean you should embrace it.

    5. Fihart

      Re: Dinosaurs @hooksie

      I'm the "twat with a 20 year old keyboard" -- and you haven't been reading the posts properly !

      While I agree that I'm a "cheap ass" I wasn't blaming anyone for it not having a Windows key (why would it, as it's DOS era product) and I wasn't complaining about not being able to do shortcuts -- I just don't use them.

      When a better keyboard comes into my possession, doubtless it will have a Windows key and, quite possibly, I will learn the shortcuts needed to work around problems Microsoft has created by pruning useful features.

      Meanwhile, stop littering this otherwise civil series of posts with your childish epithets.

      1. Hooksie

        Re: Dinosaurs @hooksie

        My most sincere apologies Fihart, I was, as previously mentioned, just having a rant and I apologise to directly sir for any offence caused. I am frustrated at the fact that many of the concerns people have are based on the Vistaesque "I haven't used it but I'm told it's crap". Yes there are a multitude of minor issues that need worked on with Windows 8 but people seem to focus on those and not on the improvements. All that aside, I again apologise for name calling, that's not cool :-)

        1. Fihart

          Re: Dinosaurs @hooksie

          Apology accepted. Nice to see people still have the courage to admit a mistake.

        2. James Pickett

          Re: Dinosaurs @hooksie

          >the Vistaesque "I haven't used it but I'm told it's crap"

          A curious example. Most of us have used it, and it still is.

      2. Hooksie

        Re: Dinosaurs @hooksie

        Ps, the Microsoft Ergonomic 4000 keyboard is excellent if you like ergonomic keyboards. Great build quality, lots of nice little shortcut keys and very comfortable to use. Highly recommend.

  18. Andus McCoatover
    Windows

    J.H.Christ!!!

    That's the best rant by the most stupid writer I've ever read!

    I'm so amazed you seem to have managed to hide under the IT managers desk for 10 years without being hit by an axe...I fuc*king hope you ain't worrking for a big-name company like, e.g., Nokia. Oh, maybe you are, which might explain a few things.

    1. Jemma

      Re: J.H.Christ!!!

      You hold, I'll hit...

      Seriously, I'd rather spend a day locked in a roomful of thirsty black mambas mid shed than have to deal with a person with those issues (I'd be safer for one thing, and Mamba's can be affectionate and inquisitive when they know you). Its times like this when Practical Darwinism becomes so much more appealing... along with the Hammer & Quicklime of the BOFH.

    2. Hooksie
      Coffee/keyboard

      Re: J.H.Christ!!!

      Anything to base your supposition of my stupidity on? Why is that someone too dense to find any one of the three (or more) ways to get to control panel is worthy of high praise but my pointing out the flaws in several arguments enables you to call me stupid? I don't claim to be an all knowing omnipotent IT god but I do despair at the ill informed musings of some or most of the commentators in this forum, the vast majority of whom either haven't used Windows 8 or haven't taken the time to get to know HOW to use it. I had teething problems too but once I played about or searched on the ubiquitous Google I found answers to all of my questions.

      In fact, let's just try that out; tell me your specif gripes about Windows 8 and I'll see if I can help put you at ease. I've already converted several haters, myself being one of them. When I first used Windows 8 I didn't like it and couldn't see why you would want it on a desktop. Now that I'm used to it I really like it, so come on, IT first level support is now open, what can I help you with?

      P.s. thanks for the original compliment, it was intended to be a mildly humorous rant :-)

      1. James Pickett

        Re: J.H.Christ!!!

        "I had teething problems too"

        Quite recently, I imagine.. :-)

  19. mIRCat
    Linux

    Metro!?

    I liked Metro so much I installed it. I don't know how well it works with Windows8, but it runs fine on Debian.

  20. Sean Timarco Baggaley
    FAIL

    GUIs are supposed to be for newbies.

    The mouse pointer and icons were not – and never have been – intended as the primary interface for all users at every level of proficiency: the intention was that the GUI provided the "first level" interface and was designed for new users:

    Beginner users would use the GUI to explore the application, find out what it does, how it works, and so on. The GUI elements are part of the learning / training process.

    Once users start getting the hang of the application, they're supposed to start learning the keyboard shortcuts. Windows offers both CUA (ALT+underlined letters) and direct shortcuts (CTRL+letter, shown next to the relevant command in the menus). Apple's OS X only offers the latter style. This is the intermediate level of user.

    Advanced users are those who know every keyboard shortcut like the back of their hand. Unless the application is for graphic design or similar, the mouse should be used rarely – if at all – by this point.

    This is very basic GUI design stuff. There are textbooks on it and everything, so you don't get to complain about GUIs being designed for beginners rather than favouring advanced users. The latter are NOT the target for GUI design. That's why all the stuff for new users is switched on by default: advanced users should already know how to switch off the bits they don't want.

    You can customise damned near everything in Windows, including Windows 8. Apple's OS X is a lot less malleable out of the box. You can minimise the Ribbon, change the "Quick Access" toolbar, move it around, modify the Folder and View Options, and so on. It's all still there. SHFT+CTRL+N still creates a new folder. F2 still Renames a file. Those shortcuts have been there since at least Windows 95, so there really is no excuse for not knowing them.

    If you're still faffing about with a mouse in a traditional WIMP GUI, you're still at the "Beginner" level and don't get to call yourself a pro or advanced user, no matter what you may believe. You sure as hell don't get to vote on how such a GUI is designed.

    In the emails, Sinofsky comes across as positively diplomatic. "D" came across as a condescending, arrogant, pig-ignorant twit. As even Sinofsky himself pointed out: if "D" needs to do a lot of file handling, there are industrial-strength file management tools available. It is not Windows' job to provide for every possible use case, it is only required to handle the most common use cases.

    1. Paul Smith
      FAIL

      Re: GUIs are supposed to be for newbies.

      Wow! A true Wordstar user if ever their was one. Worse then that, "If you're still faffing about with a mouse in a traditional WIMP GUI, you're still at the "Beginner" level ... You sure as hell don't get to vote on how such a GUI is designed." You obviously believe that you should have been one of the key designers of Metro, no one else could come out with such a dumb statement and keep a straight face! Let me guess, you also believe colour monitors are for gamers only? Sound is an irritating distraction, and anybody who cant remember the differences in syntax between the find commands as implemented on Solaris, AIX and Linux is beneath contempt.

      Sorry, mate, the world has changed for the better. As an IT Pro (defined as someone paid by others to actually solve their IT issues) when ever I see someone trying to be too clever, I just groan and try to point out the simple way to do things. You rely on memory, I rely on understanding. Which one of us do you think has a better chance when the unexpected happens?

    2. 142
      Go

      Re: GUIs are supposed to be for newbies.

      AMEN!!!!

    3. Vic

      Re: GUIs are supposed to be for newbies.

      > mouse pointer and icons were not – and never have been – intended as the primary interface

      So - we're holding it wrong, then?

      Vic.

    4. Michael Wojcik Silver badge

      Re: GUIs are supposed to be for newbies.

      The mouse pointer and icons were not – and never have been – intended as the primary interface for all users at every level of proficiency: the intention was that the GUI provided the "first level" interface and was designed for new users

      Citations, please, from GUI R&D documents. Perhaps you have a quotation from Engelbart, say, or from one of the GUI researchers at Xerox PARC. Or is this only your personal belief?

      I don't like GUIs myself for most applications, and I do the vast majority of my work through command-line interfaces. But I'm also aware of the history of GUI development and the vastly overstated claims made for graphical interfaces by many of their proponents, and I'm under no delusion that my preferences reflect those of most users or the use cases (even for "expert" users) created by UI developers.

  21. Big-nosed Pengie
    Linux

    If you don't like it...

    ...why eat it?

    It sounds like you're sitting at the table eating a bowl of dog turds and complaining about the taste, all the while being surrounded by a sumptuous feast.

  22. Wookie

    All good here

    Im a standard user with a a fairly decent collection of movies, tv shows and music. Im not an IT professional. Ive used every generation of windows since migrating from dos/desqview - including ME and Vista. Currently using win7, IE9 and have everything set to default. I hate windows explorer, but have never had an issue with My Computer. And it all works perfectly fine.

  23. Tinstaafl

    M$ was listening - but only to those that agree with them.

  24. Goat Jam
    Happy

    File Management

    Maybe it's time to dig out that old Xtree Gold floppy disk . . . . .

  25. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Natural Selection

    The purpose of an operating system is to manage access to resources. These resources include memory, disk space, CPU cycles, peripherals, etc.

    The user interface - which is the point of contention here - is not part of the operating system.

    If MS sold Windows with only the operating system and its current set of APIs, and left it up to OEMs to provide a killer GUI, then natural selection would soon result in something almost everyone loved, or at the very least some real choice.

    I can dream, can't I?

  26. James Pickett

    "You’d be better walking away than trying to make this stick..."

    Very prescient! Perhaps Sinofsky was paying attention after all.

  27. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Revenue

    If MS are going to have an Appl Store (Short for Application, they can't use "App Store [TM]") from which they get revenue, what better way to kick start it than leave a thousand sheets of paper for people to quickly clear away, charge a micro-payment, skim from that micro-payment, and watch everyone who has the OS buy it? Heck they probably have the apps already in the store.

  28. Zombieman

    Smiling and shuddering...

    Reading through that article has really brought a smile to my face, as has the comment stream...

    Until that was it got to those CONFIG.SYS lines mentioning HIMEM et al... (Yep, load driver that allowed that 640 to 1024 kilobyte range, tell DOS to use it, make remainder memory available as XMS, load CD driver high, all to give as much memory to DOS software as possible)

    Then my head re-filled with memories of when I was writing "real mode" DOS software needing to load up about 2 Meg of data at once... Some sort of DOS call to get HIMEM to give you the memory address of a routine you had to call directly to copy memory back and forth? Something about the DI register? (maybe, maybe not, 'twas a long time ago). And OMG just remembered MOUSE.COM didn't support the "Hi Color" (16 bit) graphics modes and I had to write my own mouse sprite code...

    Having an UP button again is such a nice thing though... Only takes one instance of being in a folder with a really long name and having the breadcrumb thing only allowing the current folder or the root to be selected (or whatever it does) for the lack of an UP button look like a worse idea than ME and Vista combined... Shame the rest of the Win 8 UI comes with it... Totally IMHO....

    1. Khaptain Silver badge
      IT Angle

      Re: Smiling and shuddering...

      Nostalgia Zombieman, pure nostalgia.

      At that time I was learning how to do Hooks and Chains in Assembler in order to intercept the file read and write routines , Int 13h, AH=02 or Int 13h,AH=03 . I won't go into the details of why, lol.. Lets just say it was a very interesting period.

      I seem to remeber that Softice was very popular during that period.....

      It was back when IT was fun.

  29. RussellMcIver
    WTF?

    Seriously, who misses the "Up" button?

    Never heard of "Alt+Up"?

    Can't remember the last time I used a mouse to perform an operation like moving back to the previous folder, the whole thing make me shiver, it's like using the menu to select "Edit -> Copy" rather than just pressing "CTRL+V"

    1. RussellMcIver
      FAIL

      Re: Seriously, who misses the "Up" button?

      Or even "CTRL+C" ... whoops!

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Seriously, who misses the "Up" button?

      "Edit -> Copy""

      Given that you may well have used a mouse to highlight a section or object then right-mouse button and copy * would be faster by far than Ctrl-C.

      * Don't know if that's what Windows would do I've not used it for years

      1. Michael Wojcik Silver badge

        Re: Seriously, who misses the "Up" button?

        Given that you may well have used a mouse to highlight a section

        That's not given.

  30. DS 1

    Metro

    Here is Metro.

    http://blogs.windows.com/windows/b/windowsexperience/archive/2012/03/08/getting-around-in-windows-8.aspx

    And here are your keyboard shortcuts.

    (It is sadly a point of contempt mixed with comedy and insanity that MS got so twisted into the idea that their new touch interface was so deficient to keyboard/mouse users in operation that the saving solution was to resort to keyboard shortcuts.)

    Can you seriously imagine Android or Apple resorting to keyboard shortcuts as the prospective solution to a UI failure for IO / HID device operation? No.

    Oh - I know, some people will take umbridge, having used keyboard shortcuts forever - and deem this wrong. But its not. Metro should not need KS for simplified design and operation - unless it was deeply flawed.

    And by the way - the comms to sinofsky were meant to be patronising and contempt fueled - and its easy to understand why. Sinofsky actually believes in wrecking things, and was unreserved in how fuck you he was going to be in getting it done. Well, people told them - just as D did in multiple areas.

    Ribbon in explorer in a touch env - reeaaaaallly?

    And there are no sane reasons for not providing a sound viable working file manager (explorer) and to focus on making it better. Not worse. And there was no sanity in removing the reg change that allowed end users to put back 7's start menu - that was an outright act of vandalism.

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