Essex youth's cop headbutt heads for YouTube

Bulletproof balaclavas?

There have been times when the police have warranted assault. Like when they make up laws to shut you up.

Re: makes you glad to be English...

That's because when you were young mobiles didn't have cameras. I'm never sure if the reason why we see more of this sort of thing now is because it's easier to make it accessible (through technology but also due to an ambulance-chasing media) or because it's genuinely worse.

Discuss.

slippery slope

No use resisting the public face of our masters. Yes sir, no sir, three bags full sir is the most safe way to deal with a policeman. Yes they can be arrogant. Yes they can be ever so patronising. They can also appear to be extremely stupid, but in some instances this is just a charade to encourage one to incriminate oneself.

Resistance is futile, deal with one then there's a van full more to deal with, deal with those and the next lot turn up with guns....See where i am leading with this? It's best just not having a go in the first place. Amazing how some just cannot chain 2 or more related thoughts together.

"Yes officer, I sincerely apologise, it's my mistake, I will make my way home now if that's OK with you". Would generally work and get one out of grief pretty quickly in my opinion, provided one hasn't yet committed a crime.

There's just no point arguing with a sheepherders dog.

It does sadden me that they have to deal with such things. Punishment only deals with the symptoms though, it's going to be a long wait expecting society to change for the better. I wonder what values are conditioned into kids these days, and how many generations it will take to change, or is it going to get worse.

Evolution in Action

He's stupid enough to headbutt a police officer

His friend is stupid enough to film the incident and stick it on YouTube. Thus providing evidence.

They should be offered vascectomies rather than prison sentences.....

Discussing

There's always been little grotbags who would show contempt for the law. It's just, perhaps in the old days they would be robbing banks etc.

Nowadays, they've not got the balls for that sort of thing so they just end up headbutting policemen.

@AC "what's the world coming to"

"We certainly wouldn't have headbutted a police officer and filmed it all for YouTube."

No - as I remember from my youth, people assaulting the police were mostly lobbing bricks and petrol bombs. Although the police at the time were also busy beating up anyone within reach and baton-charging them.

A simple alleyway scuffle is hardly news compared to the attacks on police (and police attacks on civilians) in the 70s and 80s.

video

Incidentally, it's mirrored here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PDut5HI3Zz4

always been there, just get to see

from the comfort of your desk, couch.

Re: Daniel

I have the same argument with my wife who insists that when Franco was in charge there wasn't any hooliganism, vandalism or any sort of ism, although Generalísimo sort of comes close. She won't have it that it was more likely due to the state controlled media not reporting any of it. However, I am open to the suggestion that if there were any isms then the ismee would just as likely get a good and well deserved drubbing which also might have had something to do with the appearance of a more civilised society.

@Solomon Grundy

I agree. The police officer should have the assault charges made against him or is it legal for police officers to push people? Double standards again.

The Romford Kiss

Most popular after night out at Time & Envy.

Police Assault

I agree to, the police officer initiated the fault by pushing the defendant in the face face.

Arent police officers trained to defuse situations and not provoke them?

Doh

Stupid kid.

Stupid mate posting it on YouTube.

Stupid copper not having his hands up in a heated situation.

First rule of self defence - keep your bloody hands up. "Talk" with them as if you were an annoying salesman (hmmm, maybe that's whay they do it?....) and they don't even realise you have a guard up. Coppers get crap defence traning tho :o(

I was amused by the copper bleeding on the kid. If it's good enough for Stuart Pearce, it's good enough for me.

@David

As opposed to "grievous bodily harm" most likely.

Franco

I first visited Spain as a young child in 1968 and was deeply disturbed by seeing a policeman in 3-cornered hat whipping a toddler with a belt for having walked on a flowerbed. Tell your wife she can keep her Franco-era memories and indeed would be welcome to have mine if I could ever get it out of my mind.

Back on-topic, you do have to marvel slack-jawed at someone stupid enough to banjo a copper AND THEN helpfully provide their own cctv evidence.

RE: AC response

If you, as a policeman, had done that to someone I saw, I would walk up to you and take your tazer out and show you how "non lethal" it can be.

@Solomon Grundy

When did it become illegal for a policeman to prod someone? And if it is, surely the Police Officer is in a position of authority, and must place the necessary force to either restrain or show authority.

Ive not seen the movie, but assume the Officer didnt retaliate other than to restrain this future re-offender; As such i would say job well done. Rather than a night in jail or a telling off, where he could abuse other inocent persons, this criminal will 'hopefully' be punished accordingly.

I hope the little b*****d goes to jail

"The Officer initiated physical contact (i.e. started the fight). Anytime anyone starts a fight, it is the right of the victim to defend themselves in kind. The Officer would not have pushed the kid if he wasn't a policeman and basically immune to prosecution."

Horses**t, prodding someone is not starting a fight! and as for "the Officer would not have pushed the kid if he wasn't a policeman and basically immune to prosecution"; if we wasn’t a policeman he wouldn't have had to deal with the little scumbag in the first place (and considering that the little toe-rag is only 19 years old, I would hardly think that any grown man is going to be scared of prodding him, copper or no copper; its not like he was prodding Mike Tyson).

FYI the police are not immune to prosecution, the reason the punishment for assaulting the police is greater than assaulting other members of the public, is so they have they protection to be able to do their job. All people are entitled to work in a safe environment, however the nature of a coppers job does not make this practical, thus the justice system prosecutes those who assault the police much worse than the rest of us, as a way of helping to protect the police in what is an essential but very dangerous job.

@Brian

No, the next step in the escalation chain should legally be a roll around on the ground and punch it out scenario. The winner is the one who walks away. Obviously the pig won in this case, so under my system he would not be prosecuted. However, if the kid had won the pig would be prosecuted and branded a pansy.

Unfortunately I do not rule the world (or even the UK), so we must all abide by the set of laws designed to treat everyone equally. In this case the Officer started a physical confrontation without even beginning to display "threat mitigation" behavior (hands up, etc...). He should be fired, prosecuted, and possibly executed. The last thing the increasingly sterile gene-pool of the UK needs are short tempered "law officers" running round the streets starting fights.

I see that the censors...

...took my previous entirely tongue in cheek comment about parenting licences (lampooning the Daily Wail style nonsense above) the wrong way, then?

watch the video

Watch the video, you will see an open handed slap/push to the defendants head not a "prod". A prod:

prod /prɒd/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[prod] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation verb, prod·ded, prod·ding, noun

–verb (used with object)

1. to poke or jab with or as if with something pointed: I prodded him with my elbow.

2. to rouse or incite as if by poking; nag; goad.

An open handed push to the face is not a prod....

watch the "prod"

http://youtube.com/watch?v=HBXTf6TQdMI

Shouting "Back off" then Open handed push to the face then "approaching the chav again to square up to him.

Could have been handled 10 times better by the cop.

bah..

Where's Gene Hunt when you need him?

Akido? How 'bout Bar Brawling

What does the form of self defense have to do with it? Whether Akido or Jujitsu, or just good old fashioned bar bar brawling it's still a recognized way to defend yourself. If the kid in the video is of the bar brawling ilk, then that's what happens when you assault them. If it was an Akido expert I expect the offender would be an side-chop to the throat (or whatever).

Re: Pushing suspects

Here's a tip for the plod: try backing off!

Police are already disliked (this is why they now have to go round in cars and call a van full of police when arresting a bulky 9st teen). This is because you've been far too long thinking your powers are a right and not a responsibility.

Nobody likes you. Maybe there's a lesson to learn there.

here we go again...

although I'm not a big fan of coppers, having suffered at their hands a few times meself, I detest evil little chavvers more. What really bothers me is how out-and-out violence and disrespect has become so glamourised that it scores points amongst the scrote's peers to put it up on YouTube! Along with the foul happyslapping craze and the recent stories about the guy who filmed himself peeing a dying woman and those women who made their kids fight and filmed that, I wonder what's going to become of our country? I'm just glad that pretty soon I won't be around to find out, we're clearing off to more civilised climes where we won't have to put up with this sort of thing from feral teenagers anymore.

what's the betting that the scrote is now a hero to his *homies* cos the copper right, he don' show him no respeck, innit? Scumbags.

Respect?

> what's the betting that the scrote is now a hero to his *homies* cos the copper right, he don' show him no respeck, innit?

Then they're right. I think too many coppers have ceased to respect civilians. Which is stupid, considering that civilians pay coppers via taxes. This one, secure in his uniform and protected position, tried to push a civilian around. Literally.

/shrug

I hope we'll see more of this.

Re: Essex youth's cop headbutt heads for YouTube

Er. Guys, if you look at the video then there is already one person being restrained by an officer. This strongly suggests that it was already violent before hand.

The guy had two warnings on the video to back off, he kept approached the police officer to a dangerously close level where he could have grabbed equipment from the officers belt. The officer kept moving back to keep him at a manageable distance. Left with no option he pushed him back with appropriate force causing no injury. He maintained a sensible distance and tried talking to him and got headbutted. Following that he promptly took the guy down, and presumably arrested him after the video ended. The guy really had that coming, assaulting anybody is stupid, a police officer more so.

Seeing as we don't know what happened a couple of minutes before seeing that on camera we can't comment. He used appropriate force to the control the situation we could see on the film.

Usually people are complaining that the police aren't doing anything about violent youths, not that they are doing their jobs.

A COPPERS PERSPECTIVE

As I haven’t seen the clip, I can’t comment on what led to the incident. But I doubt if those that did watch it would that much wiser. You would need to know what led up to the confrontation: Was the cop called to an incident and if so what? Had it been going on for some time prior to the filming? Had unseen violence against the officer or another already taken place? Was the youth previously known to the officer and if so what for? Violence? What was said between them? The video footage is only part of the evidence and, as always, there is too little information here in which to make an informed judgement.

In English law an assault is a threatened or attempted physical attack by someone who appears to be able to cause bodily harm if not stopped. The battery takes place when the assault becomes physical and contact is made.

NB: the mere THREAT of violence can constitute an assault and IF this had already taken place the officer would have every right to defend himself, especially if he had already had dealings with the guy and had a fair idea what to expect.

What I do know is if you put 10 different officers into an identical scenario, you will see 10 different ways of dealing with it according to age, sex, temperament, experience, ability etc. Gee, human qualities!

Yes, I have suffered unfortunate experiences at the hands of the police; in fact I have arrested more than one of them – that’s because I am a Police Officer - of some considerable experience at that. They may only be in minority but I have no qualms at nicking bad guys regardless of any uniform worn.

Finally, I have been an aggrieved in crime more than anyone I’ve ever met – because of my job. I’ve suffered one attempted murder, 3 woundings, 6 GBH’s, more ABH/Common Assaults than I’ve bothered to count. My Wife has been attacked twice (had a note pinned to our door saying “Your bitch loses the kid next week” – she was 8.5 months pregnant at the time), even my 4 year old son had his legs kicked out from under him we I past a team of profession shoplifters who recognised me!

I’ve had multiple attacks on my cars and homes (had to move because of it). During one smash and grab by 50+ looters they tried to cut my hands off with shards of plate glass! I was once trying to give 1st aid at a town centre road accident some passing guys I’d previously done for burglary ran up and started kicking me whilst attempting CP! I could go on but you get the picture – the point is I don’t get paid enough to get hurt and now become VERY defensive if I even sense an element of menace – this is the real world I’m afraid.

Footnote: I’ve been armed these last few years and do you know what? Never had so much as a scratch (on duty!) and I’ve taken down some seriously bad people in this role! Make from this what you will.

Re: A COPPERS PERSPECTIVE

> As I haven’t seen the clip, I can’t comment on what led to the incident. But I doubt if those that did watch it would that much wiser. You would need to know what led up to the confrontation:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=HBXTf6TQdMI

But yeah. I agree totally with what you say.

On a personal note I do hope you managed to get some of those guys for attempted murder. They deserve it.

> Footnote: I’ve been armed these last few years and do you know what? Never had so much as a scratch (on duty!) and I’ve taken down some seriously bad people in this role! Make from this what you will.

That people probably don't want to be shot. :) I take it thats on a firearms squad rather than just being issued a taser?

My son

I'd just put the phone down on my son, who said he had just finished his Community Service, for head butting a copper.

Re: A coppers perspective

Take a look at the vid.

The kid is told to back off, and the kid walks away. The policeman walked up to him, then the kid walks back to the police officer. The officer then pushes the kid in the head and wakls bck up to the kid. The kid nuts him.

If the policeman wanted to keep his personal space, he should not have walked back to the kid.

The kid nutting the officer is wrong because being pushed in the face doesn't warrant a headbut.

The officer is wrong to walk back to the kid two or three times to face up to the kid. He was wrong in his approach ("back off" isn't as bad as "don't touch me" for starting a fight, but it's still an inducement to show that you won't back off because you aren't afraid).

So the officer was, IMO, responsible for the headbut and his actions show that he is not sufficiently trained in police action and so needs retraining and being busted back to constable. If he's involved in another such situation, sack him for incompetence.

Police officers are there to keep the peace. Not make it worse.

Coppers Perspective MkII

1. @ AC – If the Police can’t respect the public.

Correct me if I’m wrong but it seems to me that you’re writing from the States? I say this because I have 3 American 2nd cousins, one a rural Sheriff, his brother a rtd. Navy Seal and the other a former Navy pilot – and our opinions are invariably poles apart; there are evidently huge cultural differences in Policing and, put simply, they just can’t comprehend or accept much of how we work in the UK; in particular the levels of personal violence that we (in practice) have to tolerate.

If the events truly played out as you described, then the ‘officer’s’ involved are beneath contempt - such behaviour is beyond my comprehension. In a ‘civilised’ society it should be the duty of the strong to protect the weak, not to oppress them, which is precisely why I, and most others, joined in the first place. And this is precisely why I, and most like me, have no hesitation rooting out any bad ones amongst us.

I, of course, completely agree with your sentiments, what right minded individual wouldn’t. But sadly, the real problem is that prejudice cuts all ways and, sadly, so many people seem to believe that one sort actually justifies another without any sense of irony whatsoever. For very good reasons I have more sympathy for your stated experiences than you might expect or even want to believe, BUT:

Nothing I have, or will say, will give you any meaningful indication as to my sexual orientation, ethnicity or colour, education, political beliefs, religious persuasion, gullibility or susceptibility to peer pressure - and yet most people have and will pre-judge me in certain of those regards based solely upon my occupation – several of the above comments make that abundantly clear – What I will say is that I am most definitely NOT your stereotypical white anglo-saxon protestant male hetro-sexual – far from it - but what I am is entirely my business and utterly irrelevant to anything I say and do as a copper!

2. @ Peter Leech

Thanks for the link – having now seen the clip my original comments still stand only now it is clear to me that at least one unobserved incident has already taken place, evidenced by the nicked bloke under the other officer who was a) calling on his radio and b) seemingly more interested in what his colleague was doing than his own prisoner – and as a general rule, passive prisoners seldom end up pinned to the floor - but we’re still none the wiser as to any previous build-up, assault or provocation – the existence of which sets up the entire context of the clip.

I certainly couldn’t hear what the head butter said to the sergeant immediately before his reaction. Supposition I know, but I’m afraid the body language is such that the head butter appears no stranger to police attention. I, like most cops, am more than a little familiar with such confrontations, in particular those, oh so tedious, nose-to-nose, dare-you-to-touch-me scenarios that frequently follows fights and disorder. He didn’t seem remotely intimidated and actually looks first at his audience, smile and pause before the head butt which, in my estimation, is self-evidently disproportionate. But what do I know? Like you I wasn’t there and am not in possession of all the facts.

>On a personal note I do hope you managed to get some of those guys for attempted murder. They deserve it.

Me? I very much doubt I’d be able to respond to such a face butting as calmly as that officer; as previously mentioned, I’ve been grievously hurt too many times (curiously, being shot at is so much more impersonal) I now take great exception to being hurt especially having experienced so many ostensibly straight forwards cases being:

a) dropped by CPS for lack of independent corroboration

b) plea-bargained away pre-trial without ever consulting me

c) Not Guilty findings resulting from the introduction of dishonest and outrageously ‘unreasonable doubts’, false alibis and conspiratorial defence witnesses.

d) receiving such derisory sentences that offenders subsequently laugh in your face – and on one occasion prompting the just convicted moron to attempt an unprovoked attack in the court car park - in the presence of the magistrates!

Not to mention all those occasions where an arrest was either impossible or impracticable and the offender remaining unknown – such as the case of my attempted murderer and the looters that tried to remove my hands – incidentally, I got into hot water for not even attempting an arrest. Can someone explain to me how mass looting is my fault?

>That people probably don't want to be shot. :) I take it thats on a firearms squad rather than just being issued a taser?

Yes, now on a dedicated firearms unit, in my Force only armed officer’s carry tazer. But you would be surprised at the number of ‘serious villains’ who, on being faced by armed police either, walk towards you shouting words to the effect of “do it if you’ve got the balls!” or merely turn their backs laughing and try to walk away. The assumption being that British police shoot so rarely there’s little chance they’ll ever get hurt, which in truth is quite true.

In closing, what I really didn’t anticipate, all those years ago, was the sheer personal cost and cumulative damage that ‘doing the right thing’ would involve; but hey, why should I be happy?

Actually I'm in Canada

@AC (Coppers Perspective MKII)

I'm writing from Canada the lovely tolerant country that it is. The review process here for complaints against police conduct could be considered little more than a joke. At least with the police force in question for the incidents i gave reference too the complaint process was handles entirely internally. No third party or impartial investigator handling and investigating the complaints.

The town in question where these things occurred and still do occur regularly is St. Thomas, Ontario. A town I've since left and never regretted leaving. If you can believe it I was once charged with assault for spilling a cup of coffee. It took over a year and a half to get the charges thrown out with near daily harassment during that period.

Random information about the town. Per capita it has more police officers than a neighboring city almost 10x the size. There was once a string of incidents in which police officers would take turns dressing up in a novelty bunny costume and going into the holding cells to beat one person they liked to toy with being held just for their own amusement. It took years of this abuse before the person affected didn't sound like a madman when he was before a judge trying to convince them of what he'd gone through. Eventually the judge made the police turn over the tapes from the camera's aimed at the cells only to find the person had been telling the truth for the past 3-4 years that it had been happening to him.

When penalties for offending officers are non existent or a joke in comparison to the hell they can put their victims through. A position of authority shouldn't mean that a victim has no right to physically defend themselves.

In such a flawed system those that lack the respect for the public and the composure to do their job fairly and respectfully should be subject to some form of punishment by or on the behalf of those that they would torment.

I agree the conduct of the officers in question is beneath contempt.

I don't think our views are that far apart. The actions of the police in that specific town are beneath contempt . With a failure of a internal review process in place I do think there is some need for civilian action to ensure fair reasonable treatment by the police.

@colin

So you are saying thay anybody who feel like it can grab a member of the public, becasue they claim that I am a thief or worse (I hate the phrases shoplifter & joy rider)

I am not allowed to release myself from the grip from any self appointed person ?

If some (delusional) stranger grabs me and starts pushing me about am I going to stand there and let him/her do whatever they want ?

Yeah right, I am going to put some form of restraint on him for my own defence (as the person in question has obvoiusly not been taking their meds or real thieves scare them too much). I will then start shouting for the cops, if he gets damaged in the process through getting more violent then thats his / her choice, as it's best not to struggle against such holds.

Not being a chav I wouldn't start pounding him into the pavement, but I will not stand there and have some idiot physically abusing me. As I haven't stolen anything he has no reason to carry out a citizens arrest

Or perhaps it's fine to simply accuse accuse me of anything they want, and then to knock me to the ground, or push me down the stairs (I saw a security guy do that in a Virgin store one day)

The reason I mentioned Akido is becasue it is defensive and totally useless to initiate attack, and is the response is controlled. Striking people is incredibly unpredictable and can often lead to death or permant injury (one of the reasond it is frowned upon in society)

Mr Gumby : whats a side chop ? is that like a judo chop (to quote A. Powers) or a pork chop. Hmmm I smell Troll, but on which side of the debate ?

The cop could have delt with it better, but if somebody pokes me should I be able to kill their wife and children too.