back to article Windows 7 overruns NHS Scotland

NHS Scotland has snubbed open source alternatives to re-engage with Microsoft after signing an Enterprise Agreement covering the deployment of Windows 7 on nearly 100,000 desktops. The three year contract penned this summer is estimated to be worth around £5m in total with 17 of the 22 health boards in Scotland signing up. …

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  1. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    You have to factor in all the hidden costs, staff retraining (network and desktop support as well as end users), continuing to run existing Windows desktops for a transition period (access to old documents and systems) and the reduced productivity for a period while people get up to speed with the new unfamiliar desktop.

    Saving a few quid on licensing is nothing compared to the costs above.

    1. The BigYin

      All of your points, whilst valid, also apply to Win7.

      The only reason thee NHS even considered Open Source was to get some leverage over MS. This is the UK, the rich must be made richer.

      1. jonathanb Silver badge

        Most stuff that runs on XP also runs on Windows 7, however it generally does not run on other non-Microsoft operating systems. The cost of converting even one program to run on a different operating system would be vastly more than the cost of Windows 7.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          "Stuff"

          The most important thing NHS users need is IE6 and this does not work with Windows 7.

          Why, wonders the uninformed, do they want IE6? Because MS talked gullible politicians & managers into making it only work with that browser at best.

          Expensive consultants and developers are being used to bring it forwards. The National Programme for IT now works with IE7. This means that we can now move to Vista!

      2. Torquemada

        Really? Your migration experience is impressive...

        For example - sure, cross-training to a new system is no different from cross-training to a newer version of the same software.

        But sure, it's all to do with 'the rich' and your own, seperate agenda.

        1. Tom 35

          Sure it's different

          "sure, cross-training to a new system is no different from cross-training to a newer version of the same software."

          Take Office 2003 -> Open Office

          or Office 2003 -> Office 2010

      3. h4rm0ny
        Mushroom

        Training costs for Win7 OR some Linux distribution both fade into nothing compared to the black hole that has been the NHS's NPfIT (National Program for IT) and CFH (connecting for health) which has seen billions disappear without benefit to companies like Accenture (coincidentally, the board of which Patricia Hewett, Health Secretary at the time, sat upon). If you saw some of the ancient Heath Robinson systems that provide the back-end in the NHS, you'd be horrified.

        I no longer work in the NHS, but I well remember the systems that were used by Primary Care (your local GP surgery, walk-in clinics, etc.) for submitting patient statistics. QOF was the name of it (Quality and Outcomes Framework) and it formed the basis for how GP surgeries got remunerated. This system was nothing but a pile of web-forms that numbers were typed into (number of diabetic patients, number of BP tests, etc.) with a little bit of simple arithmetic at the back end to work out some percentages and see what your payment was. They couldn't even keep that running. In many instances, surgeries would submit their data and then maybe that afternoon or the next day, the results would be up. Think about that. It's web-forms that run the submitted numbers through basic arithmetic. Probably about two to three hundred calculations in total (all of the number of patients / number of relevant checks type of calculation), and it took hours, sometimes days, for the results to appear. Computers don't work that way. You know what it tells me? Their system wasn't working and someone at the back end was having to do something manually to get those results up. Whether that was copying them from one database to the other, feeding them into an Excel spreadsheet or what. But it was a joke. The punchline - it cost many millions.

        Quite frankly the NHS could use pocket calculators on their desktops if they wanted, the organization would still bleed fortunes so long as the corruption at the top that allowed Accenture, Atos and others to charge billions for something a small team of programmers could bash out in a few months.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          The patient records part of NPfIT / CHS was trialled at the Royal Free Hospital in North London - the hospital had no say in this, it was forced on them by the Department of Heath. This coincided with a major illness that required me to attend a regular out-patients clinic at the Royal Free, and thanks to the new computer system not working the entire hopsital had to resort to paper records. When my treatment concluded six months later, they were still using the paper records, and the new computers were gathering dust in the corners of consulting rooms.

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          I believe NPfIT and CFH are both NHS England rather than NHS Scotland but your other points do stand. Most IT work in the NHS involves moving data around in Excel.

    2. OSC
      FAIL

      that old chestnut...

      ...as we explored the proof of concept tender exercise we stumbled across the legal but onerous change of licence for IE. IE now requires an MS Windows licence for each copy deployed. And why is that relevant? Because IE was a requirement for the bid (ActiveX anyone?)

      It's difficult to imagine how an open source solution stood a snowflake in June's chance if every instance required an MS stack.

      That's not MS's problem. That's a failure of the public sector to address the cost of lock-in.

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      That's a bit confused between desktop , network, server and application. No effect on document access really if they froze in 2008. Mind you the article is confused between open source and open standards.

      Its a desktop - what else is in the EA is the point - stick a cross platform system on top and who cares? Ensure web based delivery for key apps on a range of browsers and an EA wouldn't make sense.

      1. OSC
        Facepalm

        ???

        Every desktop requires IE 6.0 see below

        You propose tabula rasa solution that would be perfect but for the, er, lock-in problem

        Carry on being anonymous, it's safer

    4. StrictlySocial

      Hit the nail on the head

      The cost of moving to O/S would be astronomical. Licensing costs are insignificant compared to the cost of re-writing apps and training staff.

    5. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      1/3 of a Mars every few years helps you Work, Rest and Pla... maybe not

      "Saving a few quid on licensing is nothing compared to the costs above."

      Bingo- it's pretty obvious that the overheads and other associated costs are the main point, not the relatively small £5m. (I'm sure MS will end up making a lot more than that out of this).

      But, to be fair, you do have to remember that this deal is "forecast to save NHS Scotland around £1m over its lifetime". Which sounds somewhat less impressive when you consider that it's approximately 20p per head of the Scottish population, enough for around 1/3 of a Mars Bar.

  2. zaax

    As NHS Scotland is bankrupt I wonder if M$ will actully get their money.

    1. Christian Berger

      Can't they just repo some hospitals? Hospital equipment is preety valuable.

  3. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    And When Some Idiot Brings In a USB stick

    BOOM ! NHS IT shut-down again.

  4. Lockwood
    Facepalm

    Large organisation chooses to run Windows

    THE HORROR! THE HORROR!!!!!

    Just summing up most of the comments.

  5. Great Bu

    I would just be happy if.....

    ....South of the border NHS IT would upgrade from my current setup.

    (Posted from my NHS Desktop running WinXP SP2* and restricted to IE 6.0 on account of most of our other internal systems (which all run via browser based interfaces) won't speak to anything more modern even though I had to install firefox myself (no doubt in contravention of some policy or other) beacuse of some of the external data providers I have to access run interfaces that require a better browser than IE6 just to access them).

    *Yes, you read that right, SP2.

    1. OSC
      Holmes

      Yes, you read that right IE 6.0

      "restricted to IE 6.0 on account of most of our other internal systems (which all run via browser based interfaces)"

      see our comment above

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: I would just be happy if.....

      It depends upon your job. If all your apps work fine and need IE6, then so be it. It's a work machine for goodness sake. If you are a dev, then yes I feel sorry for you, but then you need to make a business case for having something different...and I say this from a user / business perspective.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: I would just be happy if.....

        One problem is that newer medical applications wont run on XP SP2 or in the case of web applications they wont run in IE6. Getting a more modern browser onto those machines is an impossibility, since much of the support is outsourced and the costs of getting a newer browser installed would be exorbitant. As an example of the ridiculous costs, the outsourcing contracts typically have clauses that enforce a minimum charge for doing even trivial things. Any taks that's not explicitly mentioned in the contract often incurs a massive minimum charge (I've experiences a case where a login password reset cost £250 and entailed a ten day wait).

  6. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Sour grapes?

    "I suspect this was like the Newham [Council] strategy to flirt with open source people and get a discount from Microsoft," he claimed.

    or...

    Perhaps, the solution didn't work and din't fit what was required?

    Cheapest != best (although also works the other way wrong i.e. most expensive != Best)

    1. OSC
      Alien

      Re: Sour grapes?

      As we acknowledged above, with IE6/ActiveX an open source desktop would have been pointless, but feel free to carry on missing the point.

      The real problem is the cost of lock-in whatever the choice.

      As for Newham, here let me help you

      http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/08/16/msoft_newham_10yr_deal/

      http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/09/09/ms_capgemini_newham_report/

      http://www.computerweekly.com/news/2240083098/Lack-of-third-party-apps-delays-Newhams-Vista-roll-out

  7. Connor

    An iPad2 would make me so much more efficient.

    "...technology can play an important role in helping to improve efficiency, reduce costs and ultimately improve patient care,"

    Really? I've been hearing that for 30 years, yet I seldom see any efficiency or cost reductions. It would be interesting to see a comparison. Say a hospital removing all IT for staff, and returning to the old method of pen and paper of the 1950s, which is invariably what I still see anyway on any visit. We'd then see whether the slight reduction in 'efficiency' and perhaps the addition of more staff to cope, would actually cost more than the 100s millions used by Government agencies each year in order for them to be able to play with the latest tech.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: An iPad2 would make me so much more efficient.

      I've been dealing with healthcare professionals and their handwriting for nearly 12 years now.

      Going back to pen and paper would not be a good step.

  8. James 100

    Learn for the future?

    OK, they've already fallen for MS's trap and been locked in to IE6+ActiVex right now, but are they writing a cross-browser requirement into all future software procurement, so nothing will tighten the snare from now on? That way, at least a few years from now they'll be able to procure without the ridiculous "any platform that'll do the job, as long as it's a specific decade-old Microsoft one" clause!

    Depending on the small print, running IE6 via RDP on a terminal server might have been viable (not to mention a sensible way of confining the inevitable malware), but probably too expensive given the per-seat fees?

  9. Tom 7

    It might say that in the small print

    but I doubt MS will ever really stop supporting ie6 and activex for those that might possibly go to the other side.

    I've seen a lot of these ie6 activex apps that could be re-written in an afternoon by someone with a bit of experience but as the support for them continues then the budget will never be made available.

    Its quite simple - the lock in is there and unless the government makes it illegal to continue supporting these things they will live forever. Probably a lot longer than the systems they run on can survive against virii.

  10. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Someone will be taking early retirement as a result,

    Knowing what I know and how NHS procurement talks go. (Mr facilities manager 99year lease... and then retires) Someone will be sitting pretty and "oh what is that? I can retire now?" in a year or so, just when dusts settle to not look like they are bent.

    And the attituide of "it isn't my money, it is the public money" and "I don't work in IT so don't understand it, yet I know M$" and "what a nice brown envelope / Mercedes / all expenses paid trip to..." Scumbaggery sits both sides of the borders

    Anon because you can guess where I work.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Someone will be taking early retirement as a result,

      If you know that corruption and bribery is taking place have you reported it to the police? Or are you just throwing round unsubstantiated accusations, anonymously, on the Internet?

      Thought so.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Someone will be taking early retirement as a result,

        The NHS has a track record of ruining the lives and careers of whistleblowers. At my facility, our management chose one particular system from a supplier with no previous experience in the healthcare sector and despite it being more expensive than a proven system from a well established healthcare supplier. The winning supplier did take several management folks on an all expenses paid "fact finding" trip to Colorado, that just happened to coincide with the best time of year for skiing. Anon for obvious reasons.

      2. h4rm0ny

        Re: Someone will be taking early retirement as a result,

        Let me give you a specific example of how difficult it can be to get anywhere. At our local PCT (Primary Care Trust - they govern small regions, there were 303 in the UK originally), people were hired to go round the GP Surgeries and check which computers were up to scratch for running the new CFH software. This involved plugging a USB drive into each computer in a surgery, running a little program that put information about what processor it had, how much RAM, how much hard-drive space, and then moving onto the next PC. Aside from spending most of their time interfering with other people, asking where computers were, coming back because they'd missed one, sitting around because (unsurprisingly) the computers were in use in the working day, let me tell you specifically one of the ones who got in my way. He had been found through an agency (layer of profit skimming). Who had leased him to another agency (second layer of profit skimming). Who had been hired by an IT outsourcing company (third layer) which was contracted by Atos (fourth and final layer). All those layers of salary inflation on someone who needed the intellectual abilities of a lettuce to do their job but was probably getting paid more than most people they were kicking off their computers because they had an MCSE and were on contractor rates. And then there would be managers squatting on top of him and managers on top of them. Pure job creation and pure milking of the DoH. Is it corruption? Yes - the people at the top are all mates: see my comment elsewhere about Patricia Hewett and Accenture, and they have no incentive to curtail the massive inefficiencies which funnel money into the private sector. But is it something you can go to the police about? Not easily. Check out the very small number of companies that make the software GPs use in their surgeries. There's iSoft and EMIS and one or two others. A small, decent team of programmers could produce something better than any of these solutions in a year and an Open Source approach could also produce something comparable or better for freee. But in order to be used, you have to be "approved". Good luck enduring that process unless you have the right contacts. Can you go to the police about that? The corruption is all right there in the open, but layered with bureacracy, runarounds and legal get-outs. New Labour did their utter best to butcher the NHS whilst smiling to the papers and saying how important the NHS was. And the Tories seem keen to finish the job. Enjoy your health care while you have it. We are being sold off to the US medical industry and have been since New Labour came to power. Expect everything to be a lot more expensive when you're ill eight years from now.

  11. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    What?

    They are not jumping to Windows 8? Bad show, NHS Scotland, bad show.

    1. h4rm0ny

      Re: What?

      MS's current advice to enterprise customers on XP is to move to Windows 7.

  12. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    It's relatively easy to upgrade code bases that you own.

    But when 3rd party suppliers want paid to upgrade their code bases to support newer/other browsers then you are stuck with either them or the cost of finding a new supplier.

    Most of the 14 boards are onto IE8 running in compatibility mode.

    As for Open Office, it's been in place as standard since the MS Office license ran out with the option to pay for an MS Office license for the machine. Guess how popular OO has been with the user base.

  13. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Thank goodness the NHS a devolved issue and what is happening with NHS England is not happening in NHS Scotland. I feel sorry for you guys down south with Labour and Tories privatising NHS England making a real mess. NHS Scotland is not perfect but anything is better than what the Labour started to do NHS England and what the Tories are continuing to do. W7 is tried and tested W8 is not.

  14. Lusty

    Ah open source doing what it does best

    Reducing the cost or proper software :)

    Go on then freetards, downvote me if it helps your rage...

  15. Displacement Activity
    Meh

    NHS IE6 lock-in? Errr, no

    I think IE6 lock-in is history, at least in primary care. I don't know what they asked for in Scotland, but here (England) my local surgery hasn't run IE6 for some years, so no-one needs it to do their job, and no future system would be required to run it.

    There are sites that do appear to require antique MS browsers, but I'm hazy on the details. I can't get onto the secure portal at NCRS with a proper browser, so I use IE7, but I don't personally know of any other sites like this.

    Someone made the point that support costs were prohibitive and so modern browsers couldn't be installed anyway. I've got several surgeries successfully running FF/Chrome/Safari/etc without problems, and no-one's complained, or had to pay anything. The problem is that surgery staff don't have the time or inclination to install and learn other browsers, unless there's a compelling need to do so.

  16. MrRtd
    FAIL

    Ha. They're stuck in the MS trap. While some think that the licensing is cheaper than switching over to open source (which is true at the time of signing a contract) the long term costs aren't very good as they'll be locked in to using MS products.

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