back to article Microsoft Research man: It all starts with touch

Windows 8 is Microsoft’s addition to the growing tide pool of touch input for computers. Redmond's new OS joins Apple's iOS and Google’s Android in moving beyond keyboard and mouse and into touch, slide, swipe and pinch. Touch has silently become part of the DNA of computing. Now, though, we can expect manufacturers to push …

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  1. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    "Touch-based input has existed for years, but as a niche option: usually on a screen 30 inches or larger in size"

    Touch existed long before 30 inch screens were available! I remember touchscreen CRT monitors in use in factories back in the 1990s; the main advantage at that point was that a touchscreen was easier to integrate into rack mounted PLC gear and was relatively easy to build as a sealed solution that could resist water and dirt. Keyboards tended to get gunked up, lost, or destroyed.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Also...

      While not strictly touch, there were several CAD systems in the 70s(IIRC) which used lightpens and vector monitors. They didn't last that long because constant use of a pen against a vertical screen wasn't very nice for the carpal tunnel, however use of stylus against a non-vertical screen has persisted in many areas.

    2. Tom Servo

      And more importantly, John McClane used it in Die Hard 1.

      No touchcreen in the lobby, Gruber would have got away clean.or something.

    3. Paul_Murphy

      Yes - I was working on ABB process plant simulators around, I guess, 1990 and they used touch screens to select and adjust pumps and the like.

      The screens must have been about 15" or so, but there were normally at least 6 of them on a control desk.

      ttfn

    4. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      (touch on CRT Monitors)

      It goes back further - to the mid-80s in one particular instance that I was involved with, where the keyboard was replaced with a touch overlay on the CRT.

    5. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      However, for the majority of commercial computer users, the touch screen cannot come close to equaling the keyboard for data entry. I have used both. I can type a one page letter in 30 seconds or so using a keyboard and I cannot even come close using a touch screen method of entry.

    6. Robert E A Harvey

      touchscreen CRT monitors in use in factories back in the 1990s

      Indeed. Baker Perkins was using them in 1985. 20 inch. summat like 2100x1500

    7. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      "Touch-based input has existed for years"

      I've been married 20 years and I can say from experience that 'touch-based input' now happens once a week.

  2. Khaptain Silver badge
    Meh

    It's not really touch

    Touch interfaces don't really exist, what we have at the moment are merely flat "pointing" devices.

    For example, if a surface had the possibility of changing its characteristics such as being warm or cold, jagged or smooth, undulating or flat, soft or hard then that would start to become interesting. The surfaces could then be considered as being touch surfaces. Our fingers are extremely sensitive sensors, so there is a lot of room for improvement still to be made

    Haptic surfaces only produce small vibrations for the moment, maybe they will develop. Maybe they could develop surfaces that react differently in relation to the part of your body that is currently in contact with it........

    1. Dave 126 Silver badge

      Re: It's not really touch

      Force feedback in 3D, in 3D space

      http://www.sensable.com/products-claytools-system.htm

  3. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    so long as we DONT have....

    electric shocks

    or

    nasty smells

    then interactive technology will be just fine (its not really touch technology, it is after all a flat 1D 'capacitative sensor' - or switch)

    and yes, they've been out since the 'dark ages' pre-1970

  4. Corborg
    Trollface

    Squeek

    MS trying to make change for change sake and jump start the old business model of new OS = new hardware = happy vendors and lots of $$$

    The fact is the mouse works. Granted I wouldn't go back to the RSI inducing brick of a mouse that came with my Amiga 500 (although Apple would probably sue the shape of it now) but a modern ergonomic mouse is just fine.

    Just like the accelerator pedal on my car, the handle on my door, and eating with a knife and fork. If MS made cutlery they would want us all to be rubbing our faces into our plates.

  5. Dave 126 Silver badge

    Fun

    For a trip down memory lane, or a game of What The Heck Does That Do, Bill Buxton's collection of Input Devices:

    http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/um/people/bibuxton/buxtoncollection/

  6. Steven Roper
    Linux

    What I found interesting

    is the assertion that it takes 20 years for a new product to become commercialised. Isn't the usual term of a patent about that long? Whilst keeping in mind that correlation != causation, I wonder to what degree the monopolistic control by one company of a technology by patent, holds back the good ideas of other companies or inventors for that period - because the inventors or other companies can't afford or don't want to be encumbered by restrictive license agreements.

    If ever an argument could be made for open source vs patent control of everything this could very well be it. If the reason that technology waits 20 years is even partly a result of waiting for patents to expire, then surely that is an argument for the patent system being a suppressor of innovation, rather than a promoter of it?

    I'm not saying do away with patents altogether, but maybe reducing the maximum term to something more reasonable (say 5 - 8 years at max) would help things along a bit.

    1. Whitter

      Re: What I found interesting

      Except that these days it takes about 5-8 years to get a patent:.

      1. Steven Roper

        Re: What I found interesting

        Even if it does, simply have it that the patent period begins from the time of grant rather than the time of application. So that wouldn't be a problem then, would it?

  7. Paul_Murphy

    I would argue that any patent that goes unused is lost, and they are are not transferable from their original owner.

    I think that it would also be a good idea that companies are not allowed to patent an idea - but I can see a lot of companies getting upset that they need to look after their staff properly.

    ttfn

    1. Chemist

      "be a good idea that companies are not allowed to patent an idea "

      Ideas are NOT patentable - at least in sensible countries- only implementations are patentable. I can't patent an idea for treating a disease for example but I can patent a chemical entity that has some effect that might be useful in treating that disease, even if it turns out to be not so useful in practice due to side-effects or unrealistic doses or whatever.

  8. Big_Ted

    Sorry but

    Except for use in games consoles and the like I see no way anything will replace the keyboard and mouse for normal/business use until we get direct input via an implant into the brain.

    Too much can't be done without a direct impact on others around you.

    Flapping yours arms, flicking your hands, talking at it, gurning your face due to a beard etc etc

    just looking at the adverts for xbox with people flapping their arms to change channel makes the whole thing look stupid and a real risk to knocking a hot coffee out of someones hand.

    If they want to change one thing that will make a real difference in how we work and interact on simple stuff like email etc then all they need to do is develop a screen that you can adjust the focus on so that people like me can take off their glasses and refocus the screen instead...........

    1. BigAndos
      Thumb Up

      Re: Sorry but

      I agree. There is also the simple fact that keyboard and mouse is incredibly convenient and ergonomic. I can work away at my desk all day with no RSI issues, but 30 minutes on a touchscreen tablet and my hands are in agony.

      I've used touch input on an array of devices, the only use case I've found where touch is better is for web suring on my phone. However, that is because I don't have a mouse that plugs into my phone and the screen is small. Waving your hands around on a large screen is much slower than moving a mouse a few millimetres.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Sorry but

        "I can work away at my desk all day with no RSI issues"

        Give it another 20 years...

    2. Brangdon
      Thumb Up

      Re: Sorry but

      Kinect people flapping arms is because the shipped technology isn't good enough to track fingers, only arms. Once the device can recognise finger positions, you no longer will need the big movements. It will be able to read sign languages.

      1. Circadian
        Trollface

        Re: Sorry but

        @Brangdon

        Digitus Impudicus...?

  9. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    "... touch, slide, swipe and pinch."

    Seems pervy for some reason.

  10. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    "30-year-old mould"?

    Yes, that would explain my reflexive disgust every time I'm obliged to use Windows.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: "30-year-old mould"?

      oooh, aren't you hardcore.

  11. Anonymous Coward
    Linux

    It all starts with touch?

    Yes... for something you can hold in one hand and touch with the other.

    It isn't easy to do that with the monitors that go with desktop computers. How can Microsoft have forgotten where its bread and butter comes from? Has some sort of hysteria affected all the decision makers?

    Microsoft, welcome to the graveyard of bad corporate decision making.

    It would be nice to say its a chance for the penguin, but the corporate world loves its own commercial corporate bastards --- there will soon be others along to dance on MS's grave

  12. Levente Szileszky
    WTF?

    Clearly shows the fallout of the Ballmer years, just how badly MS is damaged and...

    ...just how hopelessly clueless people, living in their own bubble, are setting trends at the top.

  13. Smithson
    Facepalm

    It all starts with touch

    Sadly for Microsoft and their Windows 8 dream/delusion, it probably all ends with touch.

  14. Vladimir Plouzhnikov

    Touch-based input has existed for years, but as a niche option

    And it will continue exist for many years, as a niche option. For some specialised applications, portable tablets, EPOS, equipment control panels, etc.

    There is no way touch screen can replace KBM unless they just use a separate tablet connected to the main computer as the keyboard and then it will still be inferior.

    MSFT has come up with a bad idea and now they are desperately trying to convince themselves that the idea is good because, bad or not, they don't have any others!

  15. MBY

    I don't understand the fuzz

    I read so much about Win8, and there is tones of reviews and comments when it come to calling it a desktop unfriendly OS...so thanks to DreamSparc access at my university I have downloaded the OS and have been using it since Friday , and I LOVE IT!

    I use it on my Laptop with no touch interface, a good - meanwhile old - Dell Latitude E6400. I wouldn't want to go back to anything else. It works fast smooth and the experience is great. In no way to i think that the OS is limited when it comes to using it with keyboard and mouse! Quite the contrary it was very intuitive and i had a fast learning curve. Now i might not be the oldest of all PC users, but being 30 I am not quite the Ipad Generation either, but i started my PC experience with an Amiga 500.

    For me its clear, the new interface is a great substitution to the lame and out-date start button - PEOPLE GET OVER IT. When i use the desktop i am much more productive switching to the new start menu or the new find menu and starting my desired Program / App. The entire Charms bar and general corner storage doesn't intrude usual work flow! Thanks to great short cuts, i can access everything in no time, and multimonitor setup is just great! As i run my Laptop mostly in Doc-Stations i always have multimonitor setups and Win 8 is just beautiful on it!

    I think people should embrace the change, and stop whining about it! Try it and you will see things arent the way everyone is trying to tell you they are! I think 90% of the people complaining either are totally lacking any understanding for evolution or are simply not capable of quickly learning simple new tasks ... conservative mind set. For once MS has gone a totally new way, introducing something truly new and it seems like people just dont understand it.

    As to the Windows UI apps, they seem to be more leisure oriented. None of them claim to be highly productive! for productivity you have the desktop! and the nice thing is on dual monitor you can have them run side by side in full screen. I think its a great OS and i think MS has chosen the best way from all. I am very excited to get myself a win 8 pro tablet, a new laptop and a win (winphone 8) 8 based phone . I like the idea of an eco system, and i like the deep efficient esthetics MS has created with windows 8.

    It is sad to see so many people incapable of appreciating the functionality. As to my profession, I am a researcher in Engineering sciences, so my work on the PC is heavily multitasking and i have always a crowded desktop, but win 8 has made accessing programs, and working more fun and fast. Further more, the fact that my E6400 does such a great job at running the OS is a great step forward for a company which always needed more powerhungry PCs for their next Gen OS.

    A GREAT APPLAUSE for MS, i am very thankful for their new OS and i hope people will quickly learn to appreciate such technological beauty and the idea behind an Electronic/entertainment Ecosystem. Further to be able to think in two separate dimensions, the leisure based Tablet-Phone world and the Efficient and Creative Desktop world. And understand the great job that has been done for them to coexist!!!

    People are willing to pay 700$ for an Ipad but they complain about getting an WinPro for 800$ makes no sense to me...

    At this point i do want to point out that some modifications and updates would be very welcome:

    - better VPN - still no good integration of IPsec protocol

    - better link between desktop and Windows 8 apps (mail, share....)

    Otherwise i love it and WIndows 8 Ecosystem is the way to go - Good job MS

    P.S: i used to hate MS and was holding on to my Amiga for years. When i had to let go of Amiga I used Windows but never liked it ... first 95, then horrible ME then 2000, which was nice...but i never really liked it until Windows 8 - i was just a user until now, but now i actually feel like this is what i was waiting for to like and enjoy using since my Amiga OS was buried.

    1. Vladimir Plouzhnikov

      Re: I don't understand the fuzz

      Clap! Clap! Clap! An excellent piece of astroturf!

      But remember, accessing programs is *never* fun, no matter what they are or on what platform. That bit of corporate speak is a dead giveaway and you should strive to avoid it in your future fake grass-root endeavours.

    2. This post has been deleted by its author

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: I don't understand the fuzz

      Upvoted because you had the nerve to post it without a troll or a joke icon

  16. P_0

    From the article..

    ...“We are seeing technologies coming to productisation more quickly because companies want to have the edge, so from a consumer point of view it’s an exciting time,” says Izadi, who jointly leads the interactive 3D technologies group at Microsoft Research Cambridge.

    Productisation? I'm finding it hard to imaginize what that is.

  17. Christian Berger

    The problems with touch interfaces in a nutshell

    Touch interfaces are hard to discover, there are many ways to move your hand, and unless you try them all, it's hard to find them.

    Touch interfaces also aren't very expressive. You need a lot of gestures to do things you would otherwise do with a few commands.

  18. mark l 2 Silver badge

    I don't think the mouse and keyboard are going to go away anytime soon. I can move the cursor from one side of the screen to the other with just a few MM of mouse movement, and have keyboard shortcuts for doing other tasks, scrolling on a touch screen device it still a pain and you often end up clicking on something when you meant to scroll.

  19. Robert E A Harvey

    Data gloves

    Anyone remember Byte Magazine? Loads of articles about data gloves in the 1980s.

  20. Zmodem

    next gen televisions will just be a 50" ipad on the wall, that can make video calls, browse the net, stream your movies and watch your freeview

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      @zmodem

      50" iPad. God forbid.

      I don't want to have to re-mortgage to buy one and the re-re-mortgage to pay A**le extortionate sums of money to make big video calls where I would likely pay a premium per pixel on my 50" screen, and watch Netflix at cost +30%+soul and watch freeview only after paying A**le for a no-so-freeview service once they get their filthy, grubby, festering, rotten to the core little mits on it.

      What you trying to do? Give me nightmares?

      1. Zmodem

        most televisions already have a basic OS on when you browse a USB stick for videos, images etc, a tv would only cost £50 more for a while, and you wouldnt need your pc on all day and night burning up the 1kw with the psu

  21. Michael Wojcik Silver badge

    Argh

    Clarke manages to get the tired, vapid "DNA of computing" metaphor in here twice (and in his largely-unnecessary introduction and fully-unnecessary conclusion at that). Minus several million for style. (And I suspect Izadi said "volumetric displays", not "volume metric displays", which presumably are the ones that are measured in cubic centimeters.)

    Izadi is guilty of using "modalities" where he means "modes", but that's a lesser offense - it's just bombast. A couple of raps of the ruler should straighten that out.

  22. Rob G.
    Thumb Down

    Booo! Shoehorning touch into desktops and laptops is bad.

    Ugh is there anyone else out there that is just fed up with the need to touch and fondle your computer instead of just using a keyboard and mouse like you're supposed to. I don't see the usefulness of a touch driven UI on my primary machines, and its just a misdirected choice in developing an OS based on marketing. This is a damn cop-out as far as OSes are concerned, just give us the choice to decide which UI is best. Touch driven desktops are a fad that is fading quickly, lets just leave the fondle driven UIs to tablets and phones please.

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