Part1 Re: @J1 - Graham Marsden ... 20120722 22:39...
J1 - I wasn't planning on replying again, but you make comments that I wil not leave unaddressed.
----Hmmm, perhaps I'll do so again, and then you will feel compelled again.
Firstly it is not "arrogant to dismiss all gods in one fell swoop", it is a simple fact that there is *no proof* of the existence of *any* gods.
----Oh really, how much proof have you looked at? Which proofs have you looked in relation to 3000 list of names.. it must have taken quite alot of time. So far you haven't given any reason for rejecting any, just there's 'no proof'. Which proofs did these gods make, and how did you reject them. What you actually are doing, is repeating the standard view of the society.. the likes of your comedian for instance. Otherwise, it should not be hard to provide a number of examples.. lets not go for the full list.. but take your pick out of the 3000, perhaps a few from each hundred or so would suffice.
----As to Islam, there is plenty of proof around.. what counts as proof to you? Note, one could just discount this as a subjective request for stuff to fit into your world view.. something I will not be able to fulfill.
----Anyway, here goes.
----A miracle perhaps, the Quran claims to be one.. one which is not reproducable.. ie. it lays down a challenge to those who say it is not to produce a chapter like it.. many have tried over the years.. you can even see examples on the the net. This claim is falsifyable. Perhaps you could take it up. Muslims became masters of cryptography of the time.. why.. they wanted to be able to analyse the language, and see if they could just distinguish different peoples writings/speaches just based on the word usage, structure etc.. There is a very distinct difference between the Quran, and the sayings of the Holy Prophet, peace be upon him. People have overtime been able to mimic the words of the Prophet, peace be upon him, but not the Quran.
----Perhaps history, When Islam came, over the period of 23 years.. everything changed in the society that it came to. From the way the people eat to what they wear, to how they go to the toilet, to how they marry, how they run their government, finance, social system, what they considered as good and bad.. there was nothing that was left untouched. In the case of revolutions, the only thing that normally changes.. is the government.. in this case everything was changed. It's a pretty striking example on a large scale, if one where to pay attention.
----The US tried prohibition in the 1930's. They realised the danger of drinking (something you still do not appreciate), and tried to do something about it. They spent alot of money, put people in prison etc.. to make it work.. and failed. In the case of Islam, one revelation came down.. and the people stopped. Why, because the people where prepared beforehand to receive the commandment. Its a pretty outstanding example. Peoples hearts had been imbued with the love of God.. ie. something greater than themselves. So when the revelation came down, they were happy to accept it. As opposed to the example of yourself.. you have no trust of your government etc.. and would reject their commandments.. if they went against you subjective views..
----Perhaps you like wars etc.. The Muslims fought in many wars, always outnumber heavily, took on 2 superpowers (the Romans and the Persians), at the same time, without superior weaponary or tactics, yet they won.
----Quran 21:30 Do not, see, those who, disbelieved, that, the heavens, and the earth, were, a joined entity, then we parted them, and we made, from, water, every, living thing, then will not, they believe.
----There are many of the above type of verses which talk about matters beyond the wit of the Arab of the desert at the time. In this case, those being addressed are those that claim this is not from God.. The heavens and earth, one entity.. God parted them.. made from water every living thing.. will you not then believe.. its not even being addressed to the believer.. but to the self professed free thinker type.. where did this man in the desert get this from?
----Quran 51:47 And the heaven, we constructed it, with strength, and indeed we, surely expanders.
----Expanding the heaven.... how did he know that.. people only worked that out a few years ago.. required alot of work to get there.. needed the invention of alot of equipment... yet the man in the desert is saying it 1500 years ago.
----You mentioned that you'd want God to come and tell it to you face to face.. He does not do that for most people. That is the reason for the Prophets, and that line is at an end. So your on your own with this type.
----The Quran makes the claim that the day and night are signs, mountains, sea's etc.. however, I am sure you have already discounted all these, based on what?
----There are the many prophecies.. ones that were fulfilled, ones that are yet to be so..
----Perhaps a mention of the honesty and trustworthiness of the final Prophet, peace be upon him, would help??
----Perhaps you want to be sure that the Quran we have today is what was revealed to the Holy Prophet, peace be upon him.. how was it preserved etc..
----How about a sign to do with how to clean oneself when one goes to the loo. This is sign that impressed a particular Christian, that he started to look seriously at Islam because of it.. however, for you, it may only be a justification for more mirth.
To claim existence and expect others to accept this without proof is arrogance.
----I never said I expect you to accept anything. Infact I am pretty sure that you will accept nothing. An example of this kind of mentality (one I've used before)...
----The splitting of the moon. The people of Mecca asked (again and again) for a sign. What sign would you like.. we'd like to see you split the moon in two. You sure about that? sure were sure.. will you believe in the revelation if God does this for you? defintely (got nothing to lose, not possible to split the moon after all)... ok then, lets meet in area abc, and get your people together so they can see this aswell. At area abc, the people meet up, and the moon is split. The people are blown away. Ok, you saw that right? errr, our eyes were bewitched. hmmmn, you were given the sign you asked for, are you now going to believe? errr, no, you are a magician, you bewitched our eyes.. no one accepted.
----Over the next few days, weeks, as caravans came in to the city from the desert, people in the caravans also described the splitting of the moon.. man did you see a couple of nights ago, I saw the moon, it was in two bits. Did you see it? err yeah.. I saw it.
----Many years passed, Mecca becomes Muslim. Now it becomes a source of shame for them to admit that they saw the sign, yet did not believe.
----This kind of behaviour is normal, people are always doing it.. take for example the signs of the Holy Prophet Moses, peace be upon him. He showed sign after sign, yet the people still did not believe and follow him. They still came after him with an army. Even his own people, built the golden calf after witnessing the signs..
----Even when a sign hits one between the eyes.. I expect most people to reject it. In the house of Islam, we are told that most people will reject God.. only 1 out of every 1000 will accept Him and enter paradise.
If you can provide demonstratable proof, I'm entirely willing to admit that I am wrong and gods exist, but even without proof you insist that your god does exist. (BTW calling this "faith" instead does not eliminate the total absence of proof).
----See above. What is demonstratable proof? What does it look like, do you have an example of any?
----If you are asking for something you can try.. well sure there is. Give up on your drinking, porn etc.. spend a number of months away from the world you are immersed in, you will need the time to clean you up, detox yourself so to speak.. listen to the Quran in Arabic, as recited by a master. Listen for a few hours every day. The Quran makes the claim that it is a healing, you can try it out.
----Will you, I doubt it.
----You could try and take up the challenge of the Quran, to produce a chapter like it. Will you, I doubt it.
----There is a difference between the one who is really interested, and being honest with such a request as above.. and the one who is just using it as cludge to win an argument. Well, I'm throwing your cludge back at you.. lets see if you pick it up, or run for the hills.
Next, why should I not "get involved"? This is a public discussion, not a private conversation.
----You already say that all you have to offer is subjective.. and you also say that whatever someone else has, carries as much weight, no good or bad... that is why you should not get invovled.. it would be consistent with your stated view. Getting involved is not. It suggests you actually think your view is superior. Which is not consistent with what you claim.
You claimed (incorrectly) that "for Atheists there is not right and wrong", justifying this by claiming that only god (or, at least, your god) could a) do this and b) judge it.
----Wrong, I said there is no objective right and wrong in Atheism.. please try and stick with what is being said. You may recall you agreed with this previously, and now you don't. Atheism on display.