back to article Even Apples sometimes have worms in them, admits Cupertino

Mac computers can be buggy, Apple has finally admitted. Two days ago the firm quietly pulled the claim that the iOS PCs are immune to viruses from its website. The purveyor of shinier-more-expensive desktops has replaced its former claim with the more cautious statement that Macs are "built to be safe". The change was made to …

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  1. joeW
    WTF?

    iOS PCs?

    That's a new development.

    1. Volker Hett

      Re: iOS PCs?

      Just a sign the author really does know what he's writing about.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: iOS PCs?

        Might it be considered a computer?

        Might it be considered personal?

        Well, gosh. Me, I'm still confused about why a mobile phone is running a network router operating system.

        1. Dave 126 Silver badge

          Re: iOS PCs?

          Nothing wrong with considering an iOS device a Personal Computer (as long as it's remembered that general equates 'PC' with a Windows machine)... but it still isn't a Mac, which run OSX.

          Confusion might have been understandable several years ago amongst people who are not technology journalists, because the iPhone was introduced as running OSX (presumably because Apple hadn't yet acquired the name they wanted to use). Unlike Microsoft, Apple appears to see virtue in distinguishing between a finger-driven user interface and a WIMP user-interface, and have thus shown no desire to mash the two together.

          Re: A network router operating system.

          A rose by any other name... the name iOS was of more value to a consumer electronics company, who paid accordingly to use it, than it was to company who make kit for network engineers- engineers who would, I would imagine, have more experience at determining which version of of whatever of OS is running on which box.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: iOS PCs?

        Just a sign the author really does know what he's writing about

        If you are referring to Anna , she was on Ch4 news, a rather attractive lady!!

        Aimee

      3. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: iOS PCs?

        And that the comment author does neither... the article author appears female. ;)

    2. Jurassic

      Re: iOS PCs?

      Some facts for you:

      1. Although Windows users keep calling Flashback a Mac virus, Flashback is NOT a “virus”. It is a Trojan, and there have been Trojans for the Mac (but not many) in the past. Unlike viruses, Trojans must be installed by the user on his/her own computer.

      2. In the 12 years that Mac OS X has been in use by tens of millions of users, there has NEVER been even a single Mac virus in circulation.

      3. Apple’s statement before this change is still true: “A Mac isn’t susceptible to the thousands of viruses plaguing Windows-based computers.”. This is completely true as long as you are running Mac OS X. But… if you run Windows on a Mac (either in Boot Camp or in emulation), your Windows OS can get Windows viruses. Even though Windows viruses do not affect Mac OS X, it makes sense that this would be removed since some people do run Windows on their Macs. Apple has no way of stopping Windows viruses from infecting Windows installations.

      4. The “After” statement is also true. OS X does “keep you safe from unknowingly downloading malicious software on your Mac”. However it is impossible for any company or person to stop anyone from unwisely downloading a Trojan and installing it themselves, if they make the bad decision to do this.

      1. Mr. Great Sage
        Mushroom

        Re: iOS PCs?

        @Jurassic

        Some actual facts for you:

        1. The issue here has nothing to do with the various definitions of malicious code, and what category they fall into. It's the fact the Mac made the claim that such an attack could never happen, and it has. Aside from that, the definition Trojan has nothing to do with its delivery method. It could be deployed by a virus (self replicating malicious code), a worm (similar to a viral infection that spreads within a network infrastructure), a piece of malware, spyware or whatever. All the Trojan definition specifies is that it will give access, control, or information from your computer to someone else. Some people might even label remote administrative programs such as dameware, vnc, or logmein as a Trojan.

        2. In 12 years apparently a lot of Mac users like to play word definitions games between what constitutes as a Virus. As you said, there have been Trojans in the past.

        3. I'm not susceptible to the thousands of virus's that plague plant life, yet you don't hear me going around saying how I'm impervious to all infections. This is very similar to making the claim that a Mac can't get a Window's virus. Apples and Oranges as far as the code is concerned.

        The lack of Virus's for mac's has very little to do with how secure or insecure the OS is, and has quite a bit to do with the lack of available targets compared to other alternative operating systems.

        4. Your statement right here doesn't even make sense. Maybe you could try again to explain how a "Mac keeps you safe from unknowingly downloading malicious software" if it can't prevent you from "unknowingly downloading malicious software”?

        Also, your claim that it’s impossible for a company to develop this kind of protection is false. It's called a virus scanner.

      2. sisk

        Re: iOS PCs?

        @Jurassic

        A trojan is a type of virus. The ones that install themselves are worms. But even if you only consider self-installing viruses then your statement that there's never been a Mac virus in circulation is still wrong. Just to name a few, Leap-A, Koobface, Inqtana have all been in the wild. They are not alone. OS X has long had viruses in the wild, despite Apple's irresponsible denial of the fact.

        1. phreezerburn

          Re: iOS PCs?

          Every injection vector found in Unix was available in ALL of its progeny. Windows' issues regarding virus stems from its availability to content. My IIc had less than a dozen applications worth a toss while my 8086 would have been closer to 100 and we trafficked them on BBS across the globe.(shout out to EvilOtto in Oslo and LordOak for ThePoison) In the old days, think pre-Dark Avenger, it was a race playing connect the dots and the larger log was king dingaling and not some douche gaining root and nutting things. No one was even thinking of splooging all over the (oh so available to anyone with a student id) nix servers because that's where uber types were sequestering their tool kits, the kids (me) got their BBS/IRC info and those flogging term papers (big coin) hid their wares.

          I'd bet we didn't see all the damage until those hard core types, think Iron Curtain countries, went postal over folks with infinitely less skills in the West bragging it up (the IRC logs were painful to read then, we were indeed a$$hat$) about the money being made in virgin IT territory. There were some seriously pissed types being left out of the loop then and people tend to forget those cats had to work with garbage gear so when we were moving into using more wordy languages for convenience sake because our new gear afforded us the cycles to get lazy with things, they were just writing tighter and tighter code. Some of them then decided to blacken a few eyes and boy did they ever.

          Apple wasn't similarly afflicted not because Unix couldn't be hit but because MS was the most available face of the arrogant West and some cats wanted to put a fist into that face.

      3. Blitterbug
        Happy

        Re: Flashback is NOT a "virus"...

        Doh! Please post when a) a little more informed and b) not offering straw men for our consumption.

        Traditional old-skool viruses are relatively thin on the ground. Trojans are where it's at these days. Windows PCs get infected cos people click on stuff they shouldn't; it's as simple as that. I clean this stuff up for a living; I'm reasonably qualified to make a qualitative assessment of the problerms out there.

        So please stop clinging to the old saw that 'But Macs can only get trojans' - that's pretty much all that >any< machine can get, as it is damned hard to do a straight infection through an AV product these days. Thus 'old-skool' viruses (virii?) really don't figure much any more.

      4. J. R. Hartley

        Re: iOS PCs?

        @ Jurassic

        Are you having a laugh?

        Is he having a laugh?

    3. phreezerburn

      Re: iOS PCs?

      If "PC" means a hardware agnostic MS Windows realization machine instead of Personal Computer, certainly. If not then surely Apple must have nothing to do with IBM's and Xerox's gifts to the rest of us in order for your statement to be even remotely true.

  2. g e

    Not. It gets MAC ones.

    DUH.

    Maybe PC makers will start saying they don't get MAC viruses or something - marketing departments really don't think further than the next line of copy, do they. I guess that's why they're marketing depts though.

  3. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    "The previous write-up claimed: "It doesn't get PC viruses. A Mac doesn't get the thousands of viruses plaguing Windows-based computers."

    ...I'm really not trying to apologise for Apple here, but considering that Macs can run Windows, it is simply flat out wrong to suggest they don't get PC viruses, as a Mac running Windows is as susceptible to PC viruses as a Windows PC is. I honestly suspect that's what this change in advertising is about.

    1. Ragarath

      I want to know when a MAC was not a PC? PC = Personal Computer. Are all MACs business machines?

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        "I want to know when a MAC was not a PC?"

        When it was the address of a network card?

        'PC' is colloquially taken to mean Windows PC, much like 'hacker' no longer means what it originally meant.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          re: taken to mean Windows PC

          More likely "IBM compatible" - Windows doesn't define the hardware architecture, running as it does/did on ARM and Alpha as well as X86.

        2. Tchou
          Pint

          Mac are not PC's?

          "...PC for Windows PC"

          Then what do you call a computer that run Linux?

          Is it not a PC?

          And a Mac that run Linux and/or Windows?

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Mac are not PC's?

            "Then what do you call a computer that run Linux?"

            A Linux box, and / or Linux Workstation or Linux Server.

            "Is it not a PC?"

            Sure it's a personal computer (in some cases) however the colloquial term PC means Windows PC workstation.

            "And a Mac that run Linux and/or Windows?"

            A dual-booting Mac.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        A MAC is not a Mac

        <eom>

    2. Gordon 10

      I think the point is that Mac's dont run Windows out of the box.

      Anyone can install Windows post purchase - its not the same thing.

  4. ukgnome
    Trollface

    What's a MAC?

    1. FartingHippo
      Boffin

      My dusty neurons tell me it's Mean Aerodynamic Chord.

    2. Piro Silver badge

      Media Access Control

      (Address)

    3. auburnman

      What's a MAC?

      Migration Authorisation Code; what BT are dragging their heels in providing now that I've finally bothered my arse to switch my parent's broadband.

    4. Lockwood
      Trollface

      Multicultural AIDS Coalition

    5. Graham Dawson Silver badge
      Coat

      One of these.

  5. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    But OS X/iOS CAN'T get Windows viruses, unless they can run PEs with some kind of compatibility layer. The claim is actually true. However, malware can be written for OS X etc like any system (hell, they're BSD-based, I'm surprised we haven't seen Kaiten-variants flooding the market yet). Whether malware exists for a system isn't really worth discussing; it does, for nearly every system (I've never seen malware specifically for Plan 9 From Bell Labs though), their security is down to how good the programming team working for them is, and how good their attitude towards patching is.

    I can't comment on their coding skills, because I have never audited Apple software myself, but Apple have a pretty lax attitude towards security patching, as the Flashback incident proved. I don't see why they take several weeks to implement a patch that someone else has written.

    Everything else is (including getting client-sided, the primary way to spread malware these days) pretty much nothing to do with the OS and entirely to do with the user.

    1. dogged
      Headmaster

      PC

      A Mac is still a PC. If there is a virus that a Mac can be infected with, then the claim was patently false advertising.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: PC

        >"A Mac doesn't get the thousands of viruses plaguing Windows-based computers."

        It's not ethical advertising, but I don't think you can really argue it was false. I am pretty certain Apple, a titan with many legal assaults on others under their belt, are careful enough to avoid being done by something so obvious.

        1. Crisp
          FAIL

          A Mac doesn't get the thousands of viruses plaguing Windows-based computers.

          It gets it's own special viruses! Especially written for the platform.

        2. auburnman
          Happy

          Re: PC

          You must have missed the stories about the Oz authorities fining Apple for claiming their phones are 4G.

        3. JDX Gold badge

          Re: PC

          A Mac can get Windows viruses if you use BootCamp. This is not some hacky "void your warranty" thing, BootCamp is mainstream software on the Mac.

          1. Dave 126 Silver badge

            Re: PC

            >A Mac can get Windows viruses if you use BootCamp. This is not some hacky "void your warranty" thing, BootCamp is mainstream software on the Mac.

            BootCamp is included with the Mac but Windows is not. You won't get PC viruses just because you have BootCamp - you also have to go out and purchase a copy of Windows, agree to is EULA (something about Microsoft not being liable for damage to your computer?), install it it, and run it.

        4. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: avoid being done by something so obvious

          Like 4G networking, you mean?

        5. El Andy

          Re: PC

          Not really "false", maybe, but certainly misleading and I'm pretty sure the ASA would agree. And Apple have been bitten by ASA on many occasions for stretching the truth just a little bit too far.

        6. Crisp

          Re: It's not ethical advertising

          There's ethical advertising?

  6. Thomas 18
    Trollface

    Flashback trojan

    Aren't mac users already zombies?

  7. Irongut
    FAIL

    iOS PCs?

    Can we replace Anna Leach with someone that knows what a computer is please?

    1. the-it-slayer
      Trollface

      Re: iOS PCs?

      And learn how to spell numbers. 650,00 doesn't compute.

    2. Steve Evans

      Re: iOS PCs?

      PC is an acronym for Personal Computer, there is no mention made of any specification beyond that it is a computer for one person to use.

      So there's nothing technically wrong with calling a Mac an iOS PC in the same way you have a Windows PC and a Linux PC.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        @Steve

        Except Mac computers don't run iOS (outside of the Xcode simulator that is)

        Are you a friend of Ms Leach?

        1. Steve Evans
          Facepalm

          Re: @Steve

          D'oh, yes, sorry... Missed the point on that.

          Nope, not a friend of Ms Leach, just not enough coffee in the system yet!

    3. Dan 55 Silver badge
      Gimp

      Re: iOS PCs?

      Ms Leach really knows how to stir up the fanbois!

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: iOS PCs?

        ...knows how to stir up anyone with a minimal background in computing, really. Never fixes her mistakes either, which makes some of her comments even more unctuous.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: "never fixes mistakes"

          Much the same as every other writer for el Reg with the notable exception of Lewis Page.

  8. Velv
    Mushroom

    Class action lawsuit in 3,2,1......

    "But you sold me a computer that couldn't get viruses and now it turns out it can"

    It's not like Apple aren't quick off the mark to launch legal action - watch this space for the disgruntled Fanbois.

    1. Hans 1
      Boffin

      300 000 to 7, last time I looked, is the threat-count Windows vs Mac OS X. Apple simply claim Macs cannot get infected by the 300 000 threats that plague Windows ... what is wrong with that?

      1. Crisp
        Boffin

        Comparing useless numbers

        So that's 299,993 more viruses for Windows PC's!

        But what are the magnitude of those threats? What damage will be done if they are encountered?

        Most Windows PC users run some sort of anti-virus scanner. I'm willing to bet that the vast majority of Mac PC's are running around unprotected. After all, why scan for viruses on an operating system that doesn't get viruses?

        1. Volker Hett
          Alert

          Re: Comparing useless numbers

          I'm running virus scanners on my macs and my linux boxes as well, just to protect my lesser equipped friends windows boxes.

      2. Stacy
        FAIL

        @Hans 1

        No... OSx can't get infected. I am running Windows 7 on my MacBook Pro perfectly fine, and in accordence with licensing (hell, Apple even provide most of the drivers!) so the Mac can get infected quite easily!

        So that would be 300,007 for the Mac then... Wow, 7 more than my Vaio!

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: OSx can't get infected

          How long before someone comes up with some dual-boot malware that uses a Windows exploit to plant something in OS X?

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: OSx can't get infected

            "How long before someone comes up with some dual-boot malware that uses a Windows exploit to plant something in OS X?"

            The already did that - http://goo.gl/xWcf6

      3. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        "300 000 to 7, last time I looked, is the threat-count Windows vs Mac OS X. Apple simply claim Macs cannot get infected by the 300 000 threats that plague Windows ... what is wrong with that?"

        Because you can install Windows on a Mac and get access to all of those viruses. I think someone would be well within their rights to complain about false advertising if that were the case.

        As Apple have changed their advertising however, there does not appear to be a problem.

  9. Greg D
    Mushroom

    Lets stop this Mac/PC confusion nonsense

    Windows gets viruses, and Apples OSX gets viruses. A virus is just a piece of software code that is written to work on a specific software platform, not hardware.

    The hardware in this case is completely irrelevant, since both MS and Apple write their OS kernels for the same god damn hardware.

  10. Bronek Kozicki
    Mushroom

    "built to be safe" - ooooh

    That is very nice claim. Shame it's patently untrue!

    1. Dire Criti¢
      Facepalm

      Re: "built to be safe" - ooooh

      Built to be profitable more like!

  11. vic 4

    App store sells AV software

    So maybe this was removed to sell more software + look out for iAV sometime soon.

  12. Fred Flintstone Gold badge

    My Mac is totally virus free!

    Oh dear, frantic clicking of fanbois and Apple deniers alike. Calm down, it's not what you think.

    That is, my Mac is free from iOS5 viruses.

    For the rest I have taken great care to make it compatible with all OSX, Windows and even Linux malware by means of Virtualbox (I hate Bootcamp, because that means I can only get one type of malware at a time).

    Yet, the machine still hasn't got any malware, because I do not execute applications I don't know (there is something to be said for the walled garden) also because I like to see file extensions, I don't visit odd websites and I keep up to date with the latest patches. The latter is a complete pain in the rear, whereas OSX hits the Net once every week and then very occasionally finds something to pick up, the Windows (XP) VM is unusable for half an hour if I have the temerity of not letting it work for a week because of all the OS patches and its own anti-virus update. The Linux Mint VM less so, that's more at OSX level of update overhead.

    Oh, and I never bought the "virus free" crap and I have anti virus installed. Call me fickle, but I prefer hard facts and proof over marketing fiction (it's great fun to wind up fanatics in any camp asking them to prove their claim that the platform is virus free - it totally frazzles Linux users, for instance)..

    Now, on balance this means all the platform living on this box are OK - because the same sanity applies to all. It's simple: if stick your appendage into dodgy places you're sure to catch something so don't. Apply common sense instead of believing any stupid marketing drivel - works every time..

    By the way, anti-virus is an "after the event" measure - prevention is better. AV will not help you at all with zero day threats, and I have seen one remain unnoticed for over 2 weeks, despite me submitting it to some AV vendor contacts I have and getting it back 2 hours later with a note that I was right calling it a virus.

    So there.

  13. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Is a Mac safe from PC viruses?

    "Yes. The OS X operating system isn’t susceptible to the thousands of viruses plaguing Windows-based computers" link

  14. heyrick Silver badge
    WTF?

    A Mac doesn't get the thousands of viruses plaguing Windows-based computers.

    Neither does my Beagle, or my RiscPC, or my PVR, or my BBC Micro, or my phone, or.... hang on, wait, was there actually a point here? Macs don't get Windows viruses, I can't speak German, and???

  15. Confuciousmobil

    Macs are safer than PCs (but not as safe as iOS devices) but nothing is perfect, it is a matter of risk.

    Having said that, most of my PCs run Windows as the risk of virii is not the only consideration - unless you include smartphones and tablets as PCs - in which case iOS is my main OS.

  16. Yet Another Commentard
    Headmaster

    Plural of virus is viruses.

    Please let's stop the silly "i" mania at the end.

    From "dictionary dot com" which knows a bit about words:

    [The plural is] Viruses. It is not viri, or (worse) virii. True, the word comes directly from Latin, but not all Latin words ending in -us have -i as their plural. Besides, viri is the Latin word for 'men' (plural of vir, 'man', the root of English virile). There is in fact no written attestation of a Latin plural of virus. The convention for forming the plural of Latin words in English is to use the Latin plural form, or, if Latin does not actually have a plural form for the word, to form the plural in the normal manner used for other English words. Virus is a second declension noun ending in -us. However, it is one of the few such nouns that has no plural in Latin. It occurs only in the singular. So, just as with ignoramus, one forms its English plural by appending -es.

  17. Confuciousmobil
    Unhappy

    My grandmother.

    My grandmother used to explain in great detail, the etymology of any word. I may be wrong, but she always said that if you were not sure then use what sounds right. Viruses sounds wrong, virii sounds right.

    I apologise for my ignorance.

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