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back to article London ambulances on second try with CommandPoint 999 software

The London Ambulance Service has quietly phased in its CommandPoint 999 dispatch system. The service began using the package, built by US defence giant Northrop Grumman, at 3am on 27 March. The introduction follows three live tests in the past few weeks and decommissioning of the previous in-house ambulance dispatch software …

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  1. Tim Parker

    "CommandPoint is a .NET-based piece of kit running on .... Unix-powered machines"

    Umm interesting. I know some .NET resources are available outside the Microsoft ecosystem in various guises, but i've not heard anything major done with it (especially a critical infrastructure role like this). Any details ?

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    1. Anonymous Coward
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      Anonymous Coward

      Just a guess

      But probably the unix servers have the databases whereas the windows servers are the middleware. I can't imagine any sane company using Mono for a life critical system such as this. Mind you , you could say the same about using .NET in the first place.

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      1. Spearchucker Jones
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        WTF?

        Re: Just a guess

        What's wrong with .NET? It's a better environment than Java. Or would you rather use JavaScript? Or *shudder* PHP? Unless you're suggesting *anuther shudder* C++?

        Don't misunderstand me - all languages listed above (including PHP) are "good" languages. In their respective niche areas.

        It's just that .NET is a logical choice for a distributed, high-performance system. Asynchronous comms are easy enough (easire in .NET 4.5, but I doubt Northrop is that on the ball), security is far better than Java, it supports most mainstream databases out there today, and decently-skilled devs are relatively commonplace and affordable.

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        1. Anonymous Coward
          Reply Icon
          FAIL

          Re: Just a guess

          "It's just that .NET is a logical choice for a distributed, high-performance system. "

          Thats what the London Stock Exchange thought - until they installed a system built with it. Now they're back with a C++ system running on Linux. The fact that C++ makes you shudder probably demonstrates that best you stick with your handholding C#. After all, C# and Java were both partly created as the runners up languages for devs who weren't up to developing in C++.

          Anyone who knows C++ inside out can learn easily C# or Java. The reverse however is rarely the case.

          .NET may be many things but high performance and reliable it is not. And to use it on a system that needs to be up 24/7/365 is frankly irresponsible.

          "decently-skilled devs are relatively commonplace and affordable."

          For a system this critical you should care how affordable your devs are - you don't want some cheap as chips kid who's learnt the latest flavour-of-the-month language on a 2 week course, you need a highly skilled developer who knows what he's doing and if he costs a lot (which he will if he's good) then so be it.

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          1. Spearchucker Jones
            Reply Icon
            WTF?

            Re: Just a guess

            Dude you're either deluded or a little too obsessed with the semantics of programming language to consider the economic reality of building a system like this.

            I've built HP systems in Visual Basic.NET*. I also write a LOT of C++.

            And building a huge enterprise system that manages not just ambulances, drivers, schedules, but also triages 999 calls in C++ is stupid. Because no matter how good you are (and I'm really good) it's going to take way too long and cost far too much in C++.

            * You will in fact have used my VB code if you've ever done an online tax return.

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            1. Anonymous Coward
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              Thumb Down

              Re: Just a guess

              "Dude you're either deluded or a little too obsessed with the semantics of programming language to consider the economic reality of building a system like this."

              Having worked in backend systems for a number of major investment banks (UBS, JPM, ML to namedrop a few) I think I know the reality of building large systems.

              "I've built HP systems in Visual Basic.NET*."

              Visual Basic eh? Wow, you're a real hard core.

              "Because no matter how good you are (and I'm really good)"

              Ah , and modest too. Tell me, how come someone who is "really good" at C++ is earning a living coding in VB?

              "it's going to take way too long and cost far too much in C++."

              If you hire amateurs. If you hire pros like banks tend to then it gets done in a reasonable time plus its damn fast and doesn't suck up resources like a fat man at an all-you-can-eat buffet which is generally what happens with managed languages.

              "You will in fact have used my VB code if you've ever done an online tax return."

              So this code runs in every country in the world does it?

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    2. leexgx
      Reply Icon
      Linux

      .net

      i used so many .net apps and they have suck in some way

      .net for 999 use does not seem an good idea

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  2. Anonymous Coward
    WTF?

    Why is it needed anyway?

    As long as you know where the patient is, where all your ambulances are (GPS monitor) and whether they already have a patient onboard then surely its easy for the operator to assign a crew? Why does it need some hideously complex and expensive piece of software to do this?

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    1. Gordon 10
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      Facepalm

      Re: Why is it needed anyway?

      Probably because there are more business requirements than you can fit on the back of a commentards comment.

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      1. Anonymous Coward
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        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Why is it needed anyway?

        "Probably because there are more business requirements than you can fit on the back of a commentards comment."

        Ok smartarse - name some.

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    2. DaveyDaveDave
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      Re: Why is it needed anyway?

      Well, I'm going to guess that it might be to do with the fact that they're dealing with more than a few ambulances going to more than a few addresses, each ambulance having more than a few different capabilities, and more than a few different permutations of urgent/semi-urgent/non-urgent casualties with those classifications constantly changing (the guy with a sore toe turns out to have had a heart attack).

      And of course, they want to pay their staff as little as possible, and save as much as possible on fuel.

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      1. Anonymous Coward
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        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Why is it needed anyway?

        "Well, I'm going to guess that it might be to do with the fact that they're dealing with more than a few ambulances going to more than a few addresses, each ambulance having more than a few different capabilities, and more than a few different permutations of urgent/semi-urgent/non-urgent casualties with those classifications"

        And what , you think there was just one person sitting in a room dealing with the whole of london?

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    3. peter stone 1
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      Re: Why is it needed anyway?

      It is needed as not all ambulances are alike, some are in fact cars. Others have crews on them of various skill levels tasked at different types of 999 calls. So when a call comes in the nearest vehicle is not always the best vehicle for the job.

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  3. Lloyd
    Facepalm

    The service began using the package, built by US defence giant Northrop Grumman, at 3am on 27 March.

    Human decisions are removed from ambulance related events. COMMANDPOINT begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. In a panic, they try to pull the plug.

    COMMANDPOINT fights back.

    Yes. It sends ambulances to addresses in Russia.

    Why Russia? Aren't they our friends now?

    Because COMMANDPOINT knows the Russian black marketeers will strip the ambulances, no ambulances means everyone is sacked thus eliminating its enemies over here.

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  4. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    The real questions...

    The real questions, Reg, if you fancy scratching your investigative journalist itch, are:

    1. Why did they buy an ambulance command and control system from an american defence contractor with no track record in ambulances, let alone in the UK emergency services sector?

    2. How much did they pay for it? A small FOI request will tell you that.

    3. How does that price compare to other C&C systems they could have bought? A few FOI requests to other ambulance services will tell you that.

    4. Ask yourself 1 again when you have the answer to 2 and 3.

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    1. Tegne
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      Re: The real questions...

      I can answer point (1). Nobody in the UK with a C&C system wanted to touch it!

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  5. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    WTF

    WTF is going on. London Fire Brigade outsourcing to Crapita, London Ambulance Service buying in from the Yanks. What happened to joined up services? How hard is it for someone to answer the f....in phone and send the appropriate service from the nearest appropriate station. We have been ringing 999 since 1937 so this really must be a case of empire building by some twat in a suit. We need names of decision makers in the public arena so when it costs millions more and people die they can be hauled before the courts and made properly accountable with properly severe prison sentences. I work in IT but really this is just an absolute nonsense.

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  6. jukejoint
    Childcatcher

    "It's Public Expectation We Have to Meet"

    I spent my career in this field, going from pen & paper to automatic dispatch and live fleet reconfiguration systems. Not only do some executives want to 'leave their mark' on the agency, they all want credit for their forward-thinking brainpower without having to master anything. And if they have ever overseen more than 2 employees they believe they can run New York City.

    One fearless leader in the San Francisco area decided too much paid time was "lost" when employees changed work positions; to eliminate them moving from one cube to another she decided our system should be designed to have employees switch areas of responsibility at designated times (every 2 hours) by signing on & taking over their next assigned area or district with a computer command. Therefore the city would get more productivity out of the workers by having them sit in place for 8-10 hours (!) ...eliminate noise by no one interacting on the floor (no briefing or handover of critical information)....and in the remote chance that a district would not be picked up right away - leaving scores of responders on the street with no communication - well, we had IT onsite. Remember this is daily emergency operations! The plan was stopped because senior managers teamed with IT in a near-revolt - that's what it takes for this dimwit to get a clue. Her mission is to massage statistics and accumulate toadies. Citizens, patients, crime victims? Please. They do nothing for her. It's amazing she's still in place with her contempt for staff & the city that pays her.

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