back to article 4chan founder bashes Facebook, Google+ on identity

The founder of internet forum 4chan and media-sharing service Canvas has accused Facebook and Google+ of fundamentally misunderstanding how we use identity. Chris Poole – aka “moot” – told delegates at the Web 2.0 Summit in San Francisco that Google+ made a serious mistake in its Circles function, a mistake repeated by …

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  1. jake Silver badge

    We should listen to the ...

    ... spiritual leader of the annonytwats why, exactly?

    I mean, seriously, a college dropout living with his mommy, whose only claim to fame is a garishly bad anti-social-networking[1] website?

    Don't give the lackwit childish idiot(s) any more press, let 'em wallow in their own hole, without dragging the rest of us into it.

    More seriously, has anyone pointed the main-stream press at /b/? Methinks it would be good for a giggle to let the NYT and CNN know exactly what they are trying to report on ;-)

    [1] To coin a phrase.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Did /b/ "hack" your internets or something? You seem quite upset? You mad bro?

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Ironic

        I did think that Jake may have been influenced by the irony of comments on online identity from the spiritual leader of people associated with compromising the errm online identity of so may others.

    2. TheOtherHobbbes

      He makes

      more thoughtful and mature points than you do.

      If FB and Goggie weren't staffed by robo-marketing corpo-droids (especially now that GoogLabs has closed) someone with a brain might have noticed that people quite like playing with identity online.

      But no. The droids are cursed by en enfeebling literal-mindedness, and therefore everyone *must* be who they say they are, at all times.

      Otherwise - why, it might be chaos, I tell you. Chaos!

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Why only your first name, Jake? Got stuff to hide?

    4. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      You think /b/ is bad?

      Have a look at the weirdness on /d/. But obviously not at work.

    5. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      What? Moot isn't the spiritual leader of anonymous

      He copied 2chan when he was 15.

      There's loads of boards. Anonymous just sort of evolved out of /b/

      It's also got bugger all to do with social networking and predates the whole concept by 5 or 6 years.

      A college drop out? Oh noes! He can join other losers like Bill Gates, Steve Jobs and Larry Ellison.

      Generally speaking, if you don't know what you're talking about, it's best to stfu.

    6. Craigness
      WTF?

      jake

      Would you have felt comfortable sharing that opinion if El Reg didn't allow you be an annonytwat?

    7. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      4chan isn't b

      as to your "I mean, seriously, a college dropout living with his mommy," wasn't that close to Steve Jobs in description at that point?

      4chan has a lot of boards and many of them are Work Safe, and a lot of work gets done via them on a lot of project (fan subbing being the area I'm most closely related with.) However if you want to know about most things that geeks might know about (from photography, to computers, to trains) there are worse places to go than 4chan.

      Also 4chan isn't necessarily "anonymous" as you have hashtags to prove you are who you say you are. The chans are a large and interesting place, some parts are like a squalid drug den run by sycopaths and gangs while others are nice sophisticated coffee shops, while others are art galleries and still more are dirty little peep show.

      Also if you love the futa there's a whole board for you, you strange strange creatures!

    8. nyelvmark
      Stop

      @jake

      I'm wondering at the reasoning process which makes moot "spritual leader" of anonymous. If I understand the reasoning, then the Boeing corporation must have been the "spiritual leader" of the 9/11 attackers, since they used Boeing's vehicles.

      Am I right?

    9. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Yes

      because unlike you, jake, he has serious, mature points to make based upon a thorough-going understanding of how people use anonymity on the Internet based on personal experience.

      Anon, obv

    10. Atonnis
      FAIL

      Erm...

      I think you may have discovered that you're in a very small minority. The comments made by Chris Poole actually address the concerns that many of us have about the approaches that Facebook and Google have towards users.

      I find it amusing that you'll abuse Chris Poole but not make mention of Zuckerberg's now infamous comments about how his first customers who gave him their details were 'dumb fucks'.

      Regardless of what content is on /b/ at least people can make mistakes or have opinions and change them without it being a matter of permanent public record. Social networking sites are going to create an absolute litany of misery come 10-20 years time, and alot of lives are going to be ruined thanks to their policies.

    11. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      @jake

      So you believe the validity of his opinions should be based purely on who you think he is.

      Considering you're a complete nobody, how seriously should we take you?

    12. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      @Jake

      > We should listen to the ...

      Because he makes a good point and his insights into the matter are gained from relevant experience.

      > let the NYT and CNN know exactly what they are trying to report on

      Both the New York Times and CNN have articles relating to 4chan and moot with levels of detail suggesting that they have actually been there.

      > To coin a phrase.

      You cannot coin someone else's phrase. Google for 'antisocial network' to see what I mean.

      1. Dan Cooke
        Trollface

        in this thread...

        people getting trolled as though this was actually 4chan.

      2. jake Silver badge

        Methinks ...

        ... I struck a very large nerve.

        Shame it's energy is misplaced, rather like a toothache.

        1. Craigness

          More than that...

          ...you were rude, abusive, derogatory and WRONG. If you want to touch nerves that's exactly the way to do it.

          And to top it off, you hide behind a veil of anonymity/pseudonymity whilst condemning someone for opining that you should be allowed to do just that.

  2. Winkypop Silver badge
    Black Helicopters

    "Facebook and Google are forcing people"

    Forcing?

    Really?

    Oh, must go, there's a knock at the door....

    1. Craigness

      Forcing

      They do force you, to the greatest extent that they can. And, as the quote continues, they do evict you if they find you've not used your "real name" (they do this remotely - they have no need to know at your door). It's true.

  3. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Good comments...

    Nice to see some common sense on social networking for a change.

  4. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    thumb_up_32.png

    Pretty accurate summary of why many people don't like the current set of identity systems.

    Some people get around it by having Facebook for fun and Linked-in for business but that isn't the best of ideas.

    Strangely enough, OpenID has this problem licked since there are a decent number of providers that let you setup aliases which you can use.

  5. LarsG

    NEVER

    Was there a more true statement.

  6. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    *like it*

  7. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Real name only.

    "Facebook and Google are forcing people to use only their real name online"

    Nonsense. A friend of mine is an actor and due to there being another actor who already has the same name, he as adopted a pseudonym. He has two Facebook accounts, one in his real name and one with his actors name.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Try changing your name to Percy the Paprika Pigeon and see how that works out. Even if your not trying to organise a coup your account won't survive long.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        But try changing your name to Percy Postlethwaite and it'll let you. You'll still be anonymous, you just won't have quite such a fucking stupid name

        1. Percy the Paprika Pigeon
          Happy

          "But try changing your name to Percy Postlethwaite and it'll let you."

          " You'll still be anonymous,

          Not me.

          " you just won't have quite such a fucking stupid name"

          At least I don't mind showing people my true name you coward.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Coat

        "organise a coup"

        Surely Percy the pigeon would "organise a coo"?

        Mine's the one with the white down the back

    2. Craigness

      Federal offence

      If they state in the EULA that you must use your "real name" then you would be committing what recently became a Federal Offence in the US by doing otherwise.

      1. kain preacher

        Citation please.

        Show me that law .

  8. ratfox

    Partially agree

    I am not certain that complete anonymity is important, but having distinct, separate identities does matter to me, e.g. for business and friends.

    I want to be able to post pictures of my holidays in a place that is not side-by-side with my business messages. Google+ circles is only the first step towards this; for instance, it does not (yet) allow to put different profile pictures for different circles.

    1. Rameses Niblick the Third (KKWWMT)

      Agreed

      That's pretty much what I thought, Google's circles feature was something I'd been waiting a long time for, the ability to share different things with different groups of people.

      To say that someone's online identity is different from their real world identity is somewhat limiting in my view, given that I, and I'm sure others, have several different real world identities even though they might not realise it. For example, when at work, I behave differently around customers and clients than I do towards my co-workers. I behave differently again when I'm at home with my family, and differently again when I'm with my friends. Why should my online profile limit me to one view of myself? I might think that the video of a monkey trying to hump an elephant is strikingly funny*, and would share that with my friends, but I probably wouldn't with a client.

      * Point of interest, I've never seen a video of a monkey trying to hump an elephant, nor have I ever sought one out so I cannot really comment on the level of humour contained therein. Sounds damn funny though.

      1. gribbler

        Rather disappointingly...

        ...I can't find a video of a monkey trying to hump an elephant. But now that you've brought it up I really want to see one.

        1. nyelvmark
          Go

          @gribbler

          Yeah - I get the impression Ramases was hoping somebody might post a link to such a thing. Sadly the closest I can get is:

          http://www.southparkstudios.com/guide/episodes/s01e05-an-elephant-makes-love-to-a-pig

          As you will discover, the original title was less euphemistic.

  9. mark l 2 Silver badge

    Facebook have not yet started to ask for state issued ID in the name of the person you open your account with but i expect it will come eventually. There are already millions of fake facebook accounts and i expect the number increases daily. Heck i know several friends who have set up fake facebooks just so they can give themselves extra crap in farmville, cityville etc (sad i know)

    And how many jealous partners have created fake profiles to spy on their other half. Anyone who saw the documentary Catfish will know how easy it is to get a circle of fake facebook accounts hundreds of friends.

    1. Suburban Inmate
      Coat

      Facebook != Law Enforcement

      I suspect a hurdle might be having access to the Politburo's central databases to verefy them.

      And my passport through Royal Fail? Might as well send it to the Centrol Cleerings State Banck Of Nigeria!

      So it's an emailed scan, which is probably as risky as snailmail, but but at least there's the option of photoshop if you know what you're doing with with the code formats, checksums etc.

      The trenchcoat with David Webb on the nametag, cheers.

  10. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Optional

    I think I said something along similar lines here a couple of times, and I think a couple others did too. And no, not all of us who post as AC are one and the same, curiously. So not only do people have multiple identities, multiple people share one too. And not just this AC chap, no. Bourbakis for one. All in all, good to hear some dissenting voices protesting the corporate onslaught of monetising "identity". And the irony of the press not respecting the guy's wish to just go by his handle alone.

  11. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Tricky issue - free will - marketing - reality check.

    I agree on the fact that you should be allowed to have as many *identities* as you see fit - this is how we interact socially in the real world. An example, I wouldn't speak to my Mom the same way I'd talk to my friends.

    The issue I have with this kind of thinking in general, however, is the fact it seems to be coming from the angle that your forced to use something, or that it's your God given right that things should be as *you* want them, even though your under no obligation to sign up in the first place.

    However, I should add, the *moving* of goalposts, as in changing the T's&C's and sneaky practices whereby data is collected without prior warning - not good.

    Facebook has been guilty of this in the past and indeed still are.

    Whilst you can choose by your own free will whether to participate in farcebook or not, the terms under which you signup should not be changable without prior notice and agreement.

    Unfortunately, as with most services of this type, you'll find a clause somewhere along the lines of "I agree that fartbook can change their terms and conditions and take the blood of your firstborn child any bloody time they want"

    Finally, however, I suspect either I'm just massively paranoid or this 4chan fella is missing the point - Frackbook and Poodle+ are just out for your data, the social side of things is the carrot. They are both in the business of profiling people and using it for marketing purposes in order to make vast sums of cash.

    These are *not* benign, altruistic companies - and if my paranoia is correct, they've got their idea of online identity spot on - they want to profile you and they can't do that if you have multiple identities.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Missing an angle or two

      The thing is that facebook is now just about the biggest player at least in the western world and is behaving much like the Chinese government except without as clear an idea of where they're going behind it.*

      That is, they have considerable market power owing to network effect. And they're using it to couple your real name to your every move, even if you're not logged into facebook. If you don't believe me, check the recent 'like button' fracas in eg Germany and connect the dots.

      In fact, they have automated systems that force you to 1) use exactly one first name and one last name, 2) adhere to their (unspecified) "acceptable naming policy" (ever change your name for facebook? blame your parents for their lack of foresight naming you? etc.), 3) submit government paperwork to "prove yourself" whenever anything goes wrong, 4) ..., 5) profit.

      Anyhow. The point is they're imposing quite a lot through their virtual monopoly. It's not really their place. In fact, governments have traditionally kept the records, and they only give you one name, but even they are more lenient about what you can name your kids than facebook. While government name administration was usable and useful in its day, it's becoming increasingly outdated, and facebook is being quite the reactionary about it, arguably abusing its power.

      Bottom line: We need a portable way of "proving" whatever we feel like "proving", without the need for government or facebook approval. Facebook will then have to be taught to shut up and like their customers. Through government interference if necessary.

      * China does think long term, longer than USoA and EU combined. Facebook doesn't have much of a strategy at all; their privacy policies clearly suffer from chronic ad-hoc foot-in-mouth and public outcry. If they had a policy it would be to tire everyone out with their stupidity. I'm hard pressed to think that's deliberate, even if it is working. Sadly.

      1. dirgegirl

        The point being made is (I believe) that no-one is FORCED to sign up for FB or G+. And that those companies are not under some sort of moral obligation to cater for the needs of confused and experimental teenagers, because they exist to make money, not shepherd adolescents into adulthood.

        1. Steven Roper
          Mushroom

          No-one is forced?

          Yes, you bloody are being forced to use their service, if not now then you soon will. I read an article on here a few weeks ago (can't be arsed looking for it now) where they were discussing requiring people to use Facebook logins to access certain online government sites and services. Then there's the Spotify fracas just recently. I've noticed increasing numbers of sites and blogs where, in order to comment, you have to login with Facebook. If you want to participate in the Internet on any meaningful level, it's becoming more and more vital to have that all-encompassing Facebook account. And this shit will just spread and spread.

          So to those idiots saying "nobody is forcing you to use Facebook" - YES THEY FUCKING ARE. And ignorant fools like you with your heads up your arses are letting it fucking happen.

  12. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Has a point

    I read this initialy wanting to make a comment that kids upset they can't post penis pic's anoymously anymore, but he did make alot of sence.

    Clearly g+ and fb need to cater for people with multiple personality orders more.

    --

    Anon becasue I read the article

  13. Andy Gates

    He makes a good point

    One thing missing from the big socials is the ability to present different profiles. Same core identity, but Fred Bloggs to your family, SkiFreddo to your winter-sports community peeps (booze party pics to share!), and RandomActivist to the political stuff you don't want scaring your boss, mum or ski mates.

    Profiles aren't hard to do: have a default and then have the option (in G+, for example) of an alternative set of info items, including pic and visible emails.

  14. Vitani

    I agree with him, I have three "identities": one my family and real-world friends know me as, one my gaming friends know me as, and one for the furry community. As you can tell from that short list I wouldn't want them getting mixed up, but I don't really want three separate Facebook accounts either!

    1. nyelvmark
      Stop

      ...and one for the furry community.

      I'm torn between asking what that means and wondering whether I want to know.

  15. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    They not only force you in the best way they can to use your real name and details, but in the facebook plataform every app you use, you need to grant this 3rd party access to your email, friends list and everything else. Ofc you can deny access, but then again you wouldn't be playing Farmville, Mafia Wars or any other crap

  16. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    I've been saying just this for a while

    My name is not my identity - this is exactly the fundamental mistake that FB and Goop make. My identity is what I do, how I present myself, what I say and so on - and as Moot says, that's not a flat or static thing.

    If Goopbook wants to be an identity service, it can authenticate me (alhough I'd rather it was done elsewhere, perhaps somewhere a bit more regulated and transparent) but it needs to respect my need to present different parts of me under different names, and sometimes no name at all.

    A/C, just because I can.

  17. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    identities online are no different than real life

    Most people, In real life have a work life, a public life, and a private life in bed or at home.

    I agree with the 4Chan founder for the most part, but I don't think he goes far enough, as he doesn't give a solution. Well the solution is to block facebook, stop using google, get a real ISP, a real pop3/smtp server, a real domain, and real webhosting be it an unmanaged rack or shared hosting.

    Half the people complaining can't even code basic html, let alone type a full sentence, so part of this problem is pure laziness on the part of the people bitching. Learn TCPIP, gather tools to watch your connections, learn from it, I ain't saying you are going to be some reverse engineer guru for virus's, but you can find things when you LOOK, problem is people don't look. Another thing, don't go cheap, jesus tits, every time people buy the cheapest fucking crap, you get what you pay for, you want to be operating on the cheapest crap (albeit free always the goal) expect to be treated like someone operating on the cheapest crap.

    You like using that yahoo or mailinator email? Expect it to be blocked in places.

    You know, its funny, I came from fidonet and bbs's and there were identities back then as well, it isn't until this fucking war on terror that I started hearing the dirty greedy filthy talismanic language of "profile" or "customer profile"

    Since then, BBS (bulletin board system), went to message board, and message board went to CMS (customer management system) another filthy greedy talismanic word.

    My websites were a planned COST LOSS on purpose from the start. Just like my security plan was a COST LOSS plan from the start. You can ultimately only afford as much security as you have the monetary capability (along with technical intelligence and time) to continuously support. By putting up a website I provide anonymity to others.

    How many idiots bitching that the 4chan guy is wrong, spent more than a year reading +Fravia 's searchlores.org ? You would already know what Google is about, likewise you would have known what facebook was about before it even existed. They are there to make money.

    If you had enough money, you could hire half the population to fight the other half.

    So, Here we are.

    1. nyelvmark
      Thumb Down

      jesus tits

      The only part of this post worth reading.

  18. mark 63 Silver badge
    Facepalm

    you dont *have* to facebook

    if you dont wanna use your real name , dont use faceb of the google wotever it is , those are apparently for people secure enough to use their real name.

    If you think back to the original social networking site - "Friends Reunited" - what would be the point if your friends didnt use their real names? same with facebook, the entire concept requires people tell people who they are.

    simples

    1. Sir Cosmo Bonsor

      The problem is

      that in many cases you now do *have* to use Facebook if you want to interact with the internet in any meaningful way, or use various services. Spotify springs to mind, as does this "Canvas" thing which I've only just heard of.

      It's starting to look like the old days when you had Windows-only software, except now you have Facebook-only software, and I imagine Zuckerberg to be pretty pleased with himself about that, much like Gates was then.

      1. nyelvmark
        Facepalm

        you now do *have* to use Facebook if you want to interact with the internet in any meaningful way

        I suspect that I may disagree with your definition of "meaningful".

      2. dirgegirl

        I'm delighted to hear that my interacting with the internets has hitherto been meaningless! I suspected as much.

    2. nyelvmark
      Boffin

      the original social networking site - "Friends Reunited"

      Last I heard, Usenet (which actually predates the internet) still exists, despite 10 years of Google trying to "preserve it for eternity" ( = close it down) as "Google Groups". Of course, nobody ever called it "Social Networking", for the same reason that nobody called Fat Boy a "thermonuclear weapon of mass destruction". Doesn't mean it wasn't one.

  19. Aggellos

    freud would love this

    Are people so scared of their own individuality they can’t express it without hiding behind a shinny shield of 1's and 0's.

    Jake is still a very naive young man i would love to hear his definition of experimentation, does that included racism, bigotry, trolling, spamming, hacking and a whole host of other rather infantile ways people try to reach out over the net.

    So anonymity is going to help teenagers develop when there is no consequence for their actions brilliant why didn’t someone not think of that already !.

    1. Tom Maddox Silver badge
      Headmaster

      I think you'll find

      . . . that someone hasn't not thought of that already, in fact.

    2. jake Silver badge

      Young? Moi? I'm a Grandfather, for fuck's sake.

      My point was that "moot"'s commentardary is pretty much useless in the great scheme of things.

      Most of us adults have groked his point since before TehIntraWebTubes[tm] had more than 25 nodes, long before TCP/IP existed. It's a tragedy of the commons thing. In a nutshell, you don't piss into your own well.

      The fact that he enables anti-social behavior, which has long been an anathema to those of us trying to make this new communications medium work, gives cause to pause as to whether or not he really sees the big picture.

      In other words, "moot" and his clump of anonytards (and their bastard birthright, the "occupy$CITY" idiots) should probably read a little Thomas Paine, John Locke, Gandhi and Ben Franklin ... Anarchy doesn't get anything done. A reasonable platform, that humans can get behind, does.

      What we really need is a neo-MagnaCarta that includes the "common people", whatever that means (I'm working on it. Don't hold your breath.).

      And no, !GooMyFaceYouMSTwit or the "Tea Party" ain't it ... That's all flash & glam news bites. Kinda like all the loud "look at me" crap that comes out of the anonytwats.

    3. mark 63 Silver badge
      Thumb Up

      well said!

      good point & well made agellos

      I cant imagine what those two thumbs down are for , probly from Jake and some other pfy

      You only have to look at the purile stream of idiocy below most utube videos to see this effect.

      I'm not saying you should never be able to be anonymous but it should be the exception rather than the rule.

      I'm sure Halifax bank wouldnt repond too well if you tried to open an account in the name of

      Mr. 7337 h4k0rZ @ all-ure-bank-R-belong-to-us

  20. Petrea Mitchell
    Boffin

    He's almost right, actually...

    “Google and Facebook would have you believe that your online personality is a mirror of who you are,” Poole said. “In fact it’s more like a diamond; you show difference facets of your personality to different people."

    The mistake he's making here is assuming an invariant set of personality attributes offline. In fact, most people will behave in consistent but consistently different ways in different offline settings as well (e.g., the person who keeps their head down and makes no waves at work, but is the life of the party at NFL night at the local bar). When people want to present different personas (that's the technical term) to different sets of people online, that's merely an extension of how they already behave away from the computer. It's more noticeable in an online environment because you notice the lack of tools for it.

    1. nyelvmark
      Boffin

      The mistake he's making here is assuming an invariant set of personality attributes offline.

      No he isn't, he's saying exactly the same thing you are. And you're both right. Go read it again: when he says "it's more like a diamond", he's referring to your real persona, not your farcebook one.

      And thanks for telling us that "persona" is the technical term for, er, "persona". I'm sure there were people who were wondering whether the technical term was "avatar".

  21. Old Handle
    Facepalm

    I agree with what he's saying, but I wonder if he really believes it himself. It's kind of hard to take someone criticizing Facebook's identity policy when they just launched a website that used Facebook accounts to establish identity.

  22. Relgoshan
    Mushroom

    Hi

    Unfortunately I'm with the girlish nerdy mouth-breather on this one. If you need a trusted and confirmed identity, there can be a network for that. It's important. If you're just out to troll-up some sad sacks in a Facebook game, don't give them anything they can use for a SWATting run. See?

    The WHOLE POINT of the modern Internet, is there should be places where you can communicate without the fear of a social stigma in real life. Every asshat corporate who put his foot in his mouth on some blog, should clearly appreciate this. Any woman who accidentally made a public wall post about the hot sex with that guy she's seeing behind her husband's back....look, anything that keeps a stranger from driving halfway across the country to beat you "about the head and neck with an axe HANDLE", is a good thing.

  23. JimK

    What a douche

    This guy is a douche. I heard him "speak" at SXSW last year and he only proved that he really doesn't have ANYTHING intelligent to add to the conversation. Best to just tune out this noise.

  24. RobIncAMDSPhD
    Thumb Down

    Teaching kids to do the right thing--not to run from problems is right

    -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    Hash: SHA1

    Having been raised and educated in rural Canada, beginning in 1980--a time when

    many of us children did not even utter a curse-word without fear of getting

    "the strap," I agree that our youth need chances to make mistakes and thereby

    learn, understand what they believe to be appropriate behaviour.

    But I think Poole got it @$$-backwards.

    But as a PhD student in the social sciences principles such as "scholarliness"

    (the peer review process is one mechanism designed to prevent me from "cherry-

    picking evidence or presenting only views that support my position and hoping

    that readers don't think of anything that weakens my arguments) and "validity"

    (people will accept arguments such as "I spent 20 years as a coal miner--you've

    never even set foot in a mind; therefore, what conclusions I draw about mining

    are automatically more valid than yours."

    [As a scientist, the same peer review process also challenges these types of

    cause-and-effect relationships that sound convenient and easy to digest but are

    not valid: the veteran miner may draw on a larger set of observations (which may

    or may not be interpreted impartially) but conclusions are the product of

    reasoning, not solely fact.]

    If you are to believe Chris Poole's claims that today's teenaers in a constantly

    evolving, radically-dynamic social context need chances to learn the impact of

    their mistakes--if indeed the majority of individuals agree with that need--then

    I propose that the process of "letting a kid who's just learning off the hook"

    should be a transparent one.

    Giving anonymity is tantamount to making these teenagers their own judge and

    jury and letting them lay off the exeuctioner--it's a non-transparent, non-

    defensible process. It's an inherent conflict of interest.

    And our children need to learn that some of their actions can be forgiven as

    learning experiences. But some just can't.

    Our children also need to learn not only that there are consequences to every

    choice we make--but also that we must take responsibility, be accountable to

    our actions and words.

    And in the cases that Mr. Poole's argument stands to reason--when erasing

    history doesn't involve a teenager's negligence didn't cause harm or death--then

    it should be up to the teen's peers, parents, and educators to choose not to

    hold the individual to account. It should be a choice.

    And now I find the tables turned, as I try to raise an eight-year-old daughter

    in a world wherein the tables have turned--in a world where teachers now fear

    students who know the worst punishment they stand to receive are just words...

    Words that are far more tame than the coarse language modern teenage casual

    language (and there's far more that I worry about than just language...)

    And considering the velocity of social change in today's world combined with the

    much-more-entitled affluent youth of today's world (within the lifetimes of some

    of our now-most-illustrious scientific minds--Dr. David Suzuki, for example, not

    only was it common for a parent to lose a child to accident or disease--but our

    grandparents' generations had no sense that they were entitled to a long, happy,

    healthy--or indeed any--life of experiences with a given child.

    By now, some of you may have begun to realize why I have signed these words with

    my GPG key; the same mechanism that can attest, using a public key that can be

    obtained through a third party keyserver, not only myself also prevents me from

    disavowing what I said!

    If I attest that I have kept my private key secure, and if this issue is like

    a coin, then one side of this coin is that I know that nobody has changed my

    words as long as my public key authenticates the accompanying signature.

    The other side of the same coin--if I attest that I have kept my private key

    secure, since my public keys have been publicly available via third party, then

    prevents me from backpedaling and changing my own words or even claiming it was

    not I who wrote them.

    What we need is to teach our children to be responsible for everything they do--

    that everything they say and do in the world, whether stricken from the record-

    books or not, has impact on our world.

    Just as we would not be satisfied if charges against a drunk driver were dropped

    for a technicality (especially if we were left paralyzed or dead), a bigger

    favour to our children is to ensure that when push comes to shove and they find

    themselves in a sticky situation--they have the confidence to do know what is

    right.

    And to do it.

    Robin L. M. Cheung, BSc, MBA, C.Mgr

    AMDS (Finance) PhD Student,

    Walden University, School of Management

    RobinCheung@MBA2003.biz http://RobinCheung.ca/

    +1 (513) 494-6340

    -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----

    Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (GNU/Linux)

    iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJOo+GiAAoJEOFGCCd75/+8y1IH+wXpDFfaF323dsJ7uITyRu2e

    Z3+IwX/gifXV88ARTIwlD9wv7ZADLkHRR24MQ4lc6mja/HHgWSkTuW5T60FSVuqM

    wXop+jn//e+aCRvaUyb3ttVXB66CToqxMsfBAkToNzN4k69DsHp0BN/fRARVsmj9

    KY39O/s1z4nSIGuOiLPO5Y+TEZGNxgZupq5fe4273RCoFKU3rLdzkJOdqCj9fAE0

    PKtcDh1xsLSOgnyuL+C649QepMe0w0kqADMGWIzcOrDZjgno9MxHZ1F80KQ8y5a1

    ZVclP20In1v34O6mM4BUFrspM+JshlA85XrUW24PNtJKUQEUj9DBt1vgWJXhDB8=

    =LOMV

    -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

    1. jake Silver badge

      @RobIncAMDSPhD

      "By now, some of you may have begun to realize ..."

      What I immediately realized is that you are a twat who doesn't realize how formating here on ElReg works ... and why it completely cocks up PGP signing.

      You may be a PhD candidate, but clearly you haven't learned how to learn yet.

      HTH, HAND.

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