Blu-ray discs outsell HD DVDs almost 3:1 in Europe

Yep and we picked the wrong one

HD DVD would have been a better stop gap solution until one of the more advanced storage formats, which blow either out of the water such as holograhic discs, is available at consumer prices in the not too distant future.

Blu Ray offers not much more than HD DVD when compared to the promise of some of the future tech.

The other thing is they aren't even using near to all the capacity on the Blu Ray when releasing a film on it so whats the point.

Obsolete anyway

I'd be amazed if either format establishes itself comparably to DVD before physical media becomes the exception and downloadable/on-demand the norm. I've already taken the Peep Show box sets off my Xmas list because it's available on 4oD, through cable or internet.

Huh?

If I read this correctly, there are, and I quote, "0.6 discs per [Blu-Ray] player owner". Thats three discs for every FIVE players. What do the owners do? stand around and share? If there were five discs for every three players you would be hard pressed to call the format a success, but at this ratio?

Let me but it another way. Over one and half million people have a Blu-ray player. More the one million of them DO NOT USE IT!

Hmmm

Sounds like those figures might have ended this argument.

What next, should the iPhone v2 have HD-DVD or BluRay on board, or maybe we could argue as to whether or not the PS3 should play Xbox 360 games?

Because there ALWAYS has to be some silly argument, after all, it's not the internet without one!

Well played by Sony.

To be honest, this was a foregone conclusion.

Sony put it's money where it's mouth is and put Blu-Ray into a hotly awaited console, the PS3 (however overpriced and underspec'ed at turned out for us in Euroland).

MS said it was behind HD, but then shipped the 360 with standard DVD.

Result, lots of Blu-ray players wrapped in PS3 cases appear in living rooms, but no HD players.

I have yet to see an HD player in the front room of anyone house, but I've seen quite a few PS3s.

@Philip Cheeseman, I'd much prefer to see Sony fall on their face too, but I fear it's too late. The Blu-ray/HD player price gap is starting to close. DVD producers now have a market for Blu-ray discs, so that's what they will produce. They'll be wanting to get their new releases out in glorious 1080p ASAP to catch the Christmas sales, they're not going to be waiting to see what happens to player sales in December.

Joe Public

I agree Philip Cheeseman. The PS3 clouds the statistics. I think when it comes to joe public they will go for HD DVD. Why? The argument would go. "Ive got a HD TV so I must get a HD DVD player"

For what its worth the non techi people ive spoken to seem to be buying HD TVs under the mistaken idea that they will show all pictures in HD! In fact I was in Currys a few weeks ago and the sales woman was telling a prospective punter that his regular DVD player would show HD pictures on the screen of the HD Ready TV he was going to buy!!! I was going to intervene but managed to bite my tongue.

TV might clinch it

it is true that only a small portion of present DVD releases need more than the 30 GB that fits on what a dual-layered single-sided HD DVD allows. The titles that currently gets an additional DVD for "extras" spiring to mind here.

More decisive are TV-shows on DVD, which have proven a popular product. 30GB is not enough for a season of 20+ 1-hour (well, 41 minutes anyway ) episodes in 1080P, with a few extras. 50GB is.

A disk-producer/distributor would certainly prefer a product that fits on a single side of a single disk. I dare say the consumer would too.

It is fair to say that high-density DVDs area stop-gap technology, but what isn't?

At some point you have to make a desicion to accept what is on offer as being satifactory for current requirements. A fair few people will probably decide that 50GB is a little more satisfactory than 30GB.

HD-DVD v's Blu-Ray

I am a UK consumer but I buy all my HD-DVD's from the USA. This is because they are cheaper and are released earlier. The fact that HD-DVD's have no region code helps too.

If all Euro consumers buy their disks from overseas would this not skew the results. I think a global comparison is the only fair way to judge.

Given that HD DVD is only just now taking off in Europe...

... the sales figures for what is mostly the early part of 2007 are largely irrelevant as it's past history as a result of the PS3s sales from early 2007. No one after all bets on the stock market based purely on past history. They go on current trends and future predictions.

More so when they represent something like 1% of sales if you include DVD.

2007 figures are not the ones to go on. 2008 are. This is where the impact of the cheap HD DVD players comes in and the public starts to get their head round the formats, realising that when both formats are technically for all intents and purposes identical really the only thing that matters is price and convenience.

HD DVD is cheaper, not region coded, has less DRM restrictions, and the spec is finalised. Want in-vision extras and web enabled content? Sure, HD DVD all the way, else keep on upgrading those Blu-Ray players and pray for Profile 2.0 (though to be fair the PS3 really is the only BR player that counts and Joe Public is really not going to buy a games console to play movies no matter how many people say it's great. It's not called a 'Play'station for nothing).

At present, all Sony spin about 3:1, 2:1, etc, doesn't mean a thing when it comes to winners when the market is tiny.

And besides, Sony execs wouldn't be admitting stalemate as they have if it really was as they are spinning here.

HD DVD players are selling this xmas, along with Wii's. Who's buying PS3s? I just see them collecting dust on the shelves.

@Joe

Over in the US, the year-so-far stats have been pretty steady at 66:34, give or take a couple of percent as big releases for either format come out, all year. BluRay is winning, but to listen to the fanboys (and indeed studio heads) at the beginning of the year they were expecting a lead more like that 17:1 el Reg reckon exists for European hardware.

It's a somewhat arbitrary figure, anyway - the two formats are still early-adopter-only, and every single person I know with HD-DVD gets a fair proportion of their discs from the US. I'm running about 50:50 myself, as sometimes (Serenity and Planet Earth, for example) it's worth paying the UK price premium for the local disc, and sometimes (Potter, notably) the UK one came out first.

Right now, I'm expecting the stalemate to last well into next year, unless those Alba players are sub-£150 or something insane. Either way, by the time I run out of films I like on HD-DVD a BluRay (or even dual-format) player will be more affordable, so I'm not too worried about it all.

NTSC vs PAL

Interesting point there Joe! Could well become a NTSC vs PAL format for different sides of the Atlantic. Would sort out the cross border shipping from the US to Europe that used to concern the censorshipers (**Petooie!!**)

Attach Rate

The European Attach Rate doesn't take into account the fact that most HD-DVD player owners buy their discs from the States where even with import duties and tarrifs they're half the price and region free. Blu-Ray on the other hand is often region-locked meaning you have to buy domestically.

If I look at my own collection the figures for Europe would show HD-DVD purchased: 2, Blu-Ray purchased: 40

So what's my "preferred" format? I have over 200 HD-DVDs purchased from the States. 'Nuff said!

Porn

Depsite the obvious attraction of the name BLU-ray, more porn is available on HD DVD. After all, it is cheaper to produce the disks, and they are all region free, which would appeal to the porn studios.

As for those calling the format war won, get a grip. HD DVD and Blu-Ray are both losing badly to ordinairy DVD. We will only be able to call a winner (if ever) when one of them overhauls DVD. This is a typical tactic of the blu-ray trolls to call victory at every opportunity. I'm certain that on some forums right now, there will be links to this story and calls for people to get over here and 'show those HD DUD morons who is boss'.

I'd love to see El Reg do a feature on fanboyism. It is a pretty strange cultural phenomenom that has moved on from silly school boy arguments to ridiculous lengths. I've seen posts from people on some forums saying they hang round in electronics shops purely to try and convince people to buy their format of choice.

PS3 helps

"Porn ?" People stream it from internet now. It's not "THE factor" in the old days.

PS3 helps, helps a lot. If you have one at home, it sometimes will change your decision buying regular DVD - $5 to $10 more for a better looking movie, why not (sometimes anyway)?

Misleading

Surely the fact that BR is region locked meaning all UK owners buy UK discs but HD-DVD isn't and therefore most buyers buy from companies who import them or buy from abroad completely skews the figures.

The big question will be when PS3 becomes a shelved product and starts gathering dust will those same people go out and buy a BR player if they haven't bought any films? (as most clearly haven't)

People buying HD-DVD players are buying them to watch films (that includes 360 owners as they need to buy it seperately), PS3 buyers are in the large buying it play games.

If the film companies get themselves sorted out and allow HD download of films then we wouldn't need either but since it'll probably take them a decade to allow that to happen we'll be stuck with picking one or the other.

I've an HD-DVD for my 360 but fully intend to buy a dual format player when they come down in a price a bit, then its win-win!!

Quality/quantity

When it comes down to it, more people will buy the format that has the most titles. At the moment, every shop I look into has a larger selection of Blu-Ray discs than HDDVD's, even though Toshiba have paid off a couple of production companies not to make Blu-Ray's (which I am surprised has not yet been brought to court under "unfair competition" laws). Whether this is indicative of the market in general I do not know, but I know a whole handful of people who buy Blu-Ray's and no-one who buys HDDVD's.

People had better hope that Toshiba can keep throwing money at HD-DVD's until the cheap players come out. Simple fact is that people buy a PS3 for gaming, and have a ready-made Blu-ray player there, so some people buy the discs. At the moment, the players are too expensive for most people to buy JUST as a player. Until that balance shifts (with cheaper players) Toshiba need to keep feeding money into HDDVD, otherwise it'll lose.

It reminds me of the great VHS vs Betamax wars of the eighties.

And to those who say HD-DVD is a better format, not really. From a publishers perspective, region coding and DRM are desirable things, and they have a greater capacity than HDDVD.

At the end of the day, if HDDVD wins, I'll buy a player, but for now I'll stick with my Blu-Ray's as it looks like the pendulum is swinging that way.

Blu-ray is pretty much region free

As Im sure many UK BD owners know, most 'region locked' US BD discs work in the UK. I import several US BD films every month and they all work fine on my PS3. You can find out which ones here :

http://bluray.lindsite.dk/

Also Several people on here are saying that they buy HD DVD discs in the US, so it brings the figures down here, but obviously it would also put the figures up in the US where HD-DVD is currently ( and always has been ) getting totally whipped.

I think its pretty obvious now that BD will win, and HD-DVD will slowly fade away. It will be fun though, watching the HD-DVD fanboys thinking up ever more illogical arguments about how the HD-DVD sales will suddenly explode next week / month / year.

PS3

If you buy a PS3 you get a BluRay player built in, you're unlikely to also buy a HD DVD player. If you planned on buying a PS3 when they were announced, you'd have bought a BluRay player rather than a HD DVD player.

The PS3 element does skew the format but as has already been said, more people are buying neither and no amount of figures would persuade me to buy into either technology.

How is this news?

How is it news, when they've been cooking the figures all along? What did you expect the backers to suggest, they were losing ground if not already behind?

The truth is simple, only gaming boxes gave blu-ray backers any illusion of competition, consumers have already chosen HD-DVD as the higher volume seller for the core video playback purpose. We knew this would happen all along because blu-ray drives cost too damn much for the masses to adopt.

I bought a console, I got a decent BluRay player for "free".

Personally I don't give a rat's arse if either format fails.

I bought a first-generation 60GB PS3 as a HD games console to play PS3 games (I also own an XBox 360, Wii, plus a fair number of the old obselete consoles).

The fact it can:

- Play/upscale DVD's

- Play Blu-Ray movies

- Play PS2/PS1/PSP games

- Play MP3/WMA/WAV/MPEG-4,DIVX, plus various other media formats

- Display photos and pictures

- Read media streams remotely

- Act as a DVR

- Be installed with Linux

- Be hooked to just about every device in my home

~~ plus all the other stuff it does ~~

... actually.. doesn't really matter to me very much.

Sure I bought a few Blu-Ray movies. Why not, since I have the player available and I wanted to test out my fancy new 1080P HD LCD TV. They are very nice, its a definate improvement over standard DVD *shrugs*

But, if the format wins or loses doesn't matter to me at all. I'll still have the player, i'll still have the discs and I'll still be using the console for its purchased purpose -- to play PS3 games on.

I think most consumers on either "side" simply don't care about this "war". A lot of the HD-DVD guys just bought their player cuz it was wicked cheap at Wal-Mart or they forked over $200 for the add-on XBox 360 player. A lot of the Blu-Ray guys are like me, they got it bundled with their game console or it came with their latest PC (I got one bundled in a Laptop I bought for a friend recently)

@Michael Compton - Hold the phone...

First you said:

"HD DVD would have been a better stop gap solution until one of the more advanced storage formats...."

Then you said:

"Blu Ray offers not much more than HD DVD..."

So Blu-Ray does offer more then? Increased capacity, etc? And there's more BD movies and players out there? Then how would HD-DVD be a better stop gap?

You confuse me, sir.

@ Scott Butterworth

I'm with you on this one. The PS3 is a nice bit of kit.

Personally, i rent my BD discs, but to be honest, i aint forking out £££££'s for the same film collection AGAIN (VHS - DVD) for either HD or BD.

I'll start buying HD or BD discs when you can get 3 for a tenner.

For the forseeable future, i'll enjoy the nice upscaling feature of the PS3 and my hired BD films, and the cracking games and the........

The Power of Disney

Disney is only avialible on Blu-Ray. For people with kids the decision is all ready made.

Check & mate.

Also doesn't it bother you that Toshiba is the only Tier 1 Manufacturer making HD-DVD players?

(LG makes a hybrid but that negates itself)

Big retailers matter

What matter is not if a format is better or worse, but if you can buy the discs. It looks like BD is doing a better job of getting their discs on shelves.

Based on this BD will be the preferred format going forward.

Retraction needed from Tony Smith

Tony Smith, your misinformation on HD-DVD Region Coding is going to be used by the usual Blu Ray Trolls, including the anonymous coward whose post has preceded mine.

As your facts are plain wrong, I believe you should be retracting your comment.

@ El Editor

Tony, i too am a little disappointed regarding comments about region coding on HD when it blatantly isn't the case.

The rumours are rife regarding this as alledgedly Disney and Fox are refusing to back HD DVD until it has region coding.... and then on the other hand Disney cast their first vote in the HD DVD forum recently!!

As for the number of discs vs units sold... the main reason the ratio is so skewed is the number of people who've bought a PS3, which whilst a Blu Ray player, most folks buy it as a games console (not sure why mind...) whereas anyone buying a HD DVD player (the Xbox add on specifically as an example here) is doing so to watch films on it and nothing more.

Given the relatively low cost, i may buy a BR player too now, but so far i've been a HD DVD fan... the fact i can now replace my current DVD player entirely also as Toshiba has leaked a multi region SD DVD upgrade on to the web so i can upscale all my existing R1 DVD's without need for a separate player!

I think eventually BR will go the way of the other Sony exclusives.... mainly because it's very expensive by comparison to manufacture the discs, standards are only just becoming so and a raft of other reasons!

@AC

No Fanbiy here, just clearing the facts a little... people slate HD DVD with ill prepared erroneous information.

I don't frankly care which wins, but at least have correct information being thrown around!

@Scott

I don't suppose you could drop any hints on where to find the SD DVD multi-region hack? I've been waiting since this time last year for one to come out, and indeed gave up and bought a (really very poor) upscaling Philips player to handle SD discs until it became available.

Although, I have to say that I'm tempted to just keep using my 360 as an R2 and HD-DVD player, and get a US PS3 to play R1 and BluRay. Even if there isn't a single game I particularly want to play on it yet. That would still leave the odd R3 and R4 disc I have, but they're a tiny minority that could be ripped and rewritten if push came to shove.

@Nick Ryan:

"Why care? There's VERY little content of any value in HD as, until very recently, most material is produced in non-HD."

Where on Earth did you get that idea? Buy or borrow a HD-DVD player, a 1080p HDTV and a copy of Casablanca. That's a 65-year-old film, but the detail is absolutely stunning, and rather substantially better than standard-def. As mentioned above, I don't have a Blu-Ray player yet, but I've no reason to believe you wouldn't see the same effect on old movies for that format either, since it is just as capable technically.

Or are films not "of any value"? Even the 60s series of Star Trek is pretty stunning on HD-DVD if you're of that mood, since like the vast majority of US productions it was shot on film. It's only UK television that uses cheap video to save a bit on the budget, and that's a decision I'm sure will come back to haunt them.

Come on Tony

Come on Tony, that is ridiculous.

You are rowing back on what you originally said.

"Region Coding is an established part of the HD DVD specification and has been for some time, so this is likely to become just as much a problem for HD DVD owners as Blu-ray Disc buffs."

An ESTABLISHED part of the specification is very different to an ad-hoc group working to DEVELOP a specification. Your further comments on whether current disks were region free or not only confirms the position you were taking, and which other posters have followed on from.

Why not do the decent thing, and admit you were wrong. HD-DVD is entirely region free. It might not remain so, but right now ALL HD-DVD players and discs are region free.

These stats are completely meaningless!

There are hardly any HD-DVDs available in the UK, but as stated by Anthony Nolan, there is no region coding on the disks.

I buy mine from the states - I'm sure most HD-DVD player owners will be doing the same.

The stats on European sales do no mean a thing.

Statistics

Are figures, anything inferred from them can be entirely misleading.

Everyone knows 95% of all statistics are made up on the spot.