back to article Australians can’t read or count

“Education fails” stories are an irresistible hot-button for even moderate media, let alone those on the right wing. So it is that when the Industry Skills Councils – an umbrella group of skills research and lobby organisations – announced that half Australia’s working-age adults have inadequate literacy or numeracy skills, the …

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  1. drengur
    Grenade

    as Mr. Disraeli said:

    There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics.

    1. KrisMac
      Grenade

      Mr Disraeli missed one...

      probably becasue the wire services were still in their infancy in his day...

      ".. and wire-service hack journalism..."

      The author makes his point extremely well - Press releases that are mindlessly repeated by lazy journo's too stupid to read behind the 'news' are nothing bu sucker-bait

      1. hitmouse
        Grenade

        Journos

        Just because a word ends in a vowel doesn't mean it takes an apostrophe before the plural s.

        This has been brought to you by the society for protection of pizzas, paninis, pianos, and friends.

        1. KroSha
          Headmaster

          's

          But it does when it's an abbreviation...

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            really?

            Citation please.

          2. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            But ...

            "Journo" is a diminutive, not an abbreviation.

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Headmaster

          @Journos

          To clarify:

          Regardless of whether it's a diminuitive or an abbreviation, an apostrophe is NEVER used to form a plural.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Headmaster

            To clarify.

            Sarcasm.

            By the way, an apostrophe is neither a diminuitive [sic] nor an abbreviation. Grammar Nazism is such fun.

            1. Anonymous Coward
              WTF?

              What?

              No, an apostrophe is a type of punctuation mark. I didn't say that it was either of those things.

              What I did say is that apostrophes are never used to form plurals. This is a fact.

              And sorry, yes I did accidentally put an extra letter 'i' in one of the words I typed - well spotted.

              1. Anonymous Coward
                Anonymous Coward

                Orly?

                "No, an apostrophe is a type of punctuation mark. I didn't say that it was either of those things."

                So you're saying that diminutives and abbreviations are some type of plural? Please read your sentence again:

                "Regardless of whether it's a diminuitive or an abbreviation, an apostrophe is NEVER used to form a plural."

                To what does the "it's" refer? It must either be "an apostrophe" or " a plural".

                "What I did say is that apostrophes are never used to form plurals."

                Citation needed. Otherwise, you'd best mind your p's and q's.

                "This is a fact."

                Is it? You do know that a lot of "grammar rules" are actually just style choices?

                1. Anonymous Coward
                  Thumb Down

                  I'm not understanding what your problem is, John

                  An apostrophe is a punctuation mark. Here is an example of one: '

                  An apostrophe is not an abbreviation. An apostrophe is not a diminutive.

                  QED.

        3. John H Woods Silver badge
          Happy

          Panini ...

          ... is already plural. I love asking for 'a panino' in coffee shops.

  2. Jonski
    Boffin

    In other news, half of all people are below average.

    Wake me when the Industry Skills Council can clearly differentiate between mean, median and average without becoming all mealy-mouthed.

    1. Marvin the Martian
      Megaphone

      ... and that following the "Journos overstate news" shocker.

      This article attributes all to incompetence; I'm doubtful. As news is the hack's bread-and-butter, saying "nothing to see, move along" is not a good attitude if you want to keep working. I suspect most journalists know how to read the press releases they're reediting, and how they're intended to read them; they just don't let they're not being misled.

      Like the "climategate" journalist: his entire career has to be built on the supposition that an informal reference to a "trick" (i.e., "method" --- it was referring to a published technique) uncovers a big conspiracy. In interviews that hack shows he doesn't know anything on the topic, and just needs there to be an issue or he's back to his unemployed blogging self.

    2. Mark 65
      Headmaster

      In other news...

      Half are below the average only if the distribution is symmetric about that average. No doubt you mean median (so to speak) - and my stats knowledge is appalling.

  3. J 3
    Happy

    What next?

    That half the population is below average on... everything?

    That half the population has an IQ lower than 100?

    1. lawndart

      Here comes Ollie Octothorpe ->

      If you find that half the population has an IQ lower than 100 then it probably means that the IQ test questions have not been worded clearly or possibly not applicable to the target demographic; e.g. questions on US presidential succession given to Australians. This will skew the results towards the low end.

      1. No, I will not fix your computer
        Boffin

        Re: Here comes Ollie Octothorpe

        The IQ test is a normalised to 100 test, therefore, you'd expect as many above average as below average (100), in "IQ and the Wealth of Nations" the normalisation was done across countries which is why the average American came out at 98 and the Hong Kong average came out at 107 (UK @100 interestingly enough).

        1. lawndart

          says:

          Yes, you would expect as many above as below, but my inferred point to the original poster was that 50% of the population would not be below 100, but fewer than that as they had not taken the proportion of the population that had a score of exactly 100 into account.

          I have seen a few purported IQ tests and the amount of locale specific questions is astonishing, and

          must hammer anyone who is not familiar with the tester's history/culture.

          Having useless colour vision, I always suffer when "Orange is to Yellow as Purple is to ......." style questions pop up.

          1. No, I will not fix your computer
            Boffin

            @lawndart

            >>Yes, you would expect as many above as below, but my inferred point to the original poster was that 50% of the population would not be below 100, but fewer than that as they had not taken the proportion of the population that had a score of exactly 100 into account.

            The word is EXPECT as many above as below, however there is no reason to believe that a small number of exceptionally high OR exceptionally low scores will skew the numbers, it all depends if you have an even bell curve or an offset bell, imagine five people four score 300, one scores 305, the average score is 301, normalisation would mean that nobody is "average", four are below average and one above average, they would all have an IQ "around" 100 (99.67 or 101.32 rounding down, no-one would score 100)

            >>I have seen a few purported IQ tests and the amount of locale specific questions is astonishing

            Hmmm.... probably not a good test, however, general knowledge (retention of facts) is a factor in IQ tests rather than just problem solving or pattern recognition, Mensa tests are very good on consistency, that said it is possible to score more on subsequent tests because of being used to the test conditions and learning how to solve problems in the same manner, so IQ tests are generally flawed as you can get "better" at them (which defeats the point of them, as an adult, you can become more learned, but not more inteligent - in theory)

  4. Anonymous Coward
    WTF?

    It's all FUD during an election year

    As the author put it, this entire "report" is hidden and vaguely worded, deliberatly playing with statistics in such a way to make something that's totally normal appear horrible and scarey. It's right up there with "50% of people are below average intelligence". Well DUH!

    Even more so since it's appeared in "The Australian". This Murdoch-owned newspaper is rabidly anti-ALP (The Australian Labor Party). He also owns that paragon of the British Press, "The Sun", so you can guess how balanced the reporting is.

    Here in Australia there is due to be a national election this year and The Aus, along with all the other Right-ring 'pundits' are doing their utmost to push the ALP out of power. This "report" is pure FUD and is being used as fodder to create a campaign for how the ALP is stuffing up Australia's kiddies. Lets totally ignore the fact that education of children is completely and totally controlled by each State government. It's even encoded into the Constitution of Australia! The Australian Government literally has zero legal influence on education standards. It would be against the Constitution for the Commonwealth Gov to have any control. They can recommend and suggest, but that's it.

    1. Woza

      Re: It's all FUD during an election year

      Not that I disagree about FUD and The Oz, but given that the current government was elected in 2010, the next national election isn't due until 2013. Have I miscounted, or are you presuming a double dissolution / other exceptional circumstances?

      http://aec.gov.au/FAQs/Elections.htm#next_election

      1. Paul 129
        Thumb Down

        Education reform

        Also although the states have control over education, the Commonwealth of Australia is setting the agenda. The federal government raises the bulk of the taxes and they dribble it back to the states via various means, all with strings attached. That's how their enforcing their national curriculum.

  5. Mark Simon

    However

    As a former Mathematics teacher reduced to teaching Excel to supposedly numerate adults, it is appalling that too many adults cannot correctly answer a simple question like 1 + 2 * 3.

    Australian education is not as rigorous as it should be, and it is no surprise that the higher achievers are more than ever from non-Australian backgrounds.

    1. Geoff Campbell Silver badge
      Boffin

      Well, that's a bit of a trick question

      OK, it's not a very hard trick, but I suspect quite a lot of adults will have forgotten about the precedence of arithmetic operators. It's not something that gets used in general daily life, so I always use brackets when writing something like that for a non-mathematical audience (which, in my current job, means all the time, writing as I do for a non-technical audience).

      It seems rather unfair to me to use that sort of question to measure the arithmetic competence of the general population.

      GJC

      1. Code Monkey

        Indeed

        I'd describe myself as being above average in numeracy but had forgotten the precedence of arithmetic operators in the 20+ years between GCSE maths and the OU course I'm studying now. And for any hard sums I did in those 20+ years I'd use brackets.

    2. My Alter Ego
      Headmaster

      Re: However

      While I agree with you about the standard of education being lower than it should be (I did some A-Level maths papers for a laugh, and was shocked), I would never write a problem like you have done. I suppose I've always found it safer to use parentheses so as to remove every possible ambiguity.

      Of course, if you had given the question *after* explaining "Order of Operations", then you've every right to be appalled.

    3. Lamont Cranston
      Troll

      "1 + 2 * 3"

      isn't really a question.

  6. Anonymous Coward
    Headmaster

    20 Years Ago ...

    “The assessment of what [adequate numeracy and literacy] meant 20 years ago will be very different to what is required today."

    "Different to" being used in a report about inadequate literacy skills. Tut, tut.

    1. JDC
      Thumb Down

      Errrr... that's standard English

      Using "different to" is perfectly acceptable English, although "different from" might be preferable in more formal communication.

  7. Neoc
    Stop

    Erm.. no.

    The author appears to be committing the same mistake he blames the news media from doing - misreporting the news, in at least one item:

    "Eight million Australians with “inadequate” skills is about 53 percent of the working-age population – or, presuming a normal distribution curve of literacy or numeracy, it’s roughly what’s below the median."

    Please, dear author, note that the word used is "inadequate", not "below average". It is possible for a person's numeracy to be below average but still "adequate" for the position they are filling (for example; checkout-chick/jock, where the registers/tills pretty much do your counting for you).

    While I agree that the majority of the media-handout is likely to be biased to be picked up by the news-outlets, do not fall into the same trap in attempting to debunk it.

    Thank you.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Self confession

      The author is also a journalist - hence, don't have high expectations...

  8. Stephen 10

    Well you have to admire the media...

    for so brilliantly demonstrating this effect, they obviously lack both numeracy and literacy skills as demonstrated by their interpretation of this report.

    Which is unsurprising to anyone who has met an Australian journalist...

    Nice analysis Richard, pity it will be ignored in the 'serious' media.

  9. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    i argee

    i'ts tottly unfair taht us hiGh acheevirs get miss reprizentid all der time.

  10. Iain 15

    Sometimes

    I love the definition of sometimes - I don't think there can be a man in the world who doesn't 'sometimes', make a mistake in following instructions. Anyone ever failed to put together ikea furniture? Bam! 8 million plus 1

  11. Mondo the Magnificent
    Coat

    Can't count?

    I recall reading an Oz newspaper article where they claimed 1/5th [or 25%] of Australians cannot count properly..

    1. Ken 16 Silver badge

      ah, but they sometimes make mistakes

      acceptable for the rest of us but below par for Australia

  12. Elmer Phud

    GIGO

    "“People experience difficulties, or make mistakes, reading and following instructions, communicating reliably via email, or interpreting graphs and charts.”"

    That's not people being 'inadequate', it's reaction to yet another pointless and meaningless email or chart or graph sent round by people who don't bloody understand it themselves.

  13. John McGhie
    Alert

    Yeah. But it's true...

    I am employed to write work instructions for young Australians working with dangerous equipment in demanding conditions.

    Around here, if you don't read the work instructions, you do it wrong. If you do it wrong, chances are high that someone will die. Not necessarily you. Worse: there's a chance they "won't" die. They will live from age 20 to age 80 being fed through a tube and turned every 6 hours.

    Our biggest challenge is to persuade these guys to actually read the work instructions. But it goes deeper: they "can" read then, and if the boss stands over them, they will. But they cannot then decode and apply the information, let alone remember it. And if the boss doesn't stand over them, they won't read at all. It's just not in their normal range of behaviour.

    These are not complicated instructions: "Before opening valve A, ensure the pressure in line B has dropped below 3 bar." Problem is line B contains boiling caustic soda: if it gets lose, the only thing they will find will be the soles of your boots. I can stand at one place at work where I have five different ways of departing this mortal coil as individual atoms: Steam that will drill holes in steel, Heat that will soften steel, Chemicals that will disolve you before we can get you out, Electricity that will vaporise you, High-pressure fluids that will cut a Toyota Ute in half (they already did...).

    And yes, the nature of the work has changed: all the easy operations are now done automatically by the computer.

    The statistics in the press release may be dodgy: but the problem is very real.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      So why expect them to read?

      Isn't that, like, the foreman's job, and then train the blokes in person and with a 2x4 within reach to make sure the lessons *stick*?

      Another field is the military, where you have not-so-very-literate squaddies that nonetheless have to learn to care for their equipment and survive as a group while other people are actively trying to kill them. How does training work there, beyond the first couple weeks basic training?

      The secret of writing that's going to be read is to write /for/ and not /at/ the audience. That is you know your audience and you pick just the right way to approach them. Here, if they won't read then you bring the lessons a different way. For it isn't the reading that's important. It's the lessons. Bring'em home any way you have to.

    2. Chris 3

      Try changing the writing style...

      Popping... "Line B contains boiling caustic soda: if it gets loose, the only thing they will find will be the soles of your boots." as the nice bold headline would I suspect, get you a lot more readers.

      1. garbo
        Pirate

        You mean like...

        the way stern cancer warnings on cigarette packets deter folks from smoking themselves to death?

  14. JP19

    Just another example...

    ... as we've seen recently in the reports coming from Japan - the media is only too happy latch on to vague or irrelevant statistics - meanwhile the real news is sidelined ( remember those hundreds of thousands of tsunami victims? whatever happened to them? )

  15. Anonymous Coward
    Coat

    this is a good place to mention

    Dr Karl Kruszelnicki, (ig nobel prize winner 2002) born and bred in New South Wales, he single-handedly tries to answer all questions on science and life of these 'inadequate' Australians. I've been listening to his ABC JJJ podcasts for a few years and, at least the Aussies who can use a phone or send a text sound quite adequate to me! There's usually only 1 question per year along the lines of "me and my mates were shooting things after 87 tinnies and why did I keep missing?...."... more fun is available at http://www.abc.net.au/science/k2/podcast/drk_rss.xml

    If you're awake at 3am on Thursdays Dr Karl also does a live phone-in on BBCR5L , but the Aussie one sounds funnier and has more vitality. Did anyone mention that the Credit-Crunch/Cuts/Recession/Housing crisis has failed to happen in a big way in Aus? is that related to poorer numerical & reasoning & literacy skills??

    1. Sorry that handle is already taken. Silver badge

      And that's just the dumb ones

      The smart ones look up the answer for themselves using their favourite search engine and/or online encyclopaedia.

  16. Tim Bates
    Thumb Down

    Can't haz calculator?

    What's the crap about people not being able to do maths without a calculator about? Who cares!?!?!

    I struggle to do fairly basic maths without a calculator, but it doesn't mean I'm no good at maths. I actually did 3 unit maths and physics, both of which I did better than "average". Does it still make me stupid because I need technology to assist me?

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Why, yes, it does.

      Thank you for asking.

    2. Anomalous Cowturd

      @ Tim

      Yes.

      HTH

    3. The Grinning Duck

      Not Nececelery

      Well, Mr Bates, I’d go a little easier on you than the anonymous and the anomalous. I use math every day at work, some of it simple, some of it quite complicated and some somewhere in the middle. All of it however, is assisted by some form of computer because time, according to the boss, is money. And we listen to him because he pays for the sweeties. As such, at least once a year I find myself utterly stuck when confronted with a mathematical problem to which I really should know the solution but with no mathtard electronic trickery at hand to help. Having become institutionalised, my math-brain just sits there whirring along (possibly wondering which combination of goods on the shelf will initiate the correct macro), merrily not giving shit about how much embarrassment it’s causing the rest of me. It’s times like these that alert me to the fact that I need to spend an evening brushing up on the basics, which I do and all is well for another year. So no, mental-math-fails don’t automatically make you stupid, you’re probably just falling victim to relying on computer assistance a little too much. Now, not doing something about the over reliance once alerted to it, well, that’s possibly open to conjecture.

  17. John Edwards
    Paris Hilton

    Never Forget

    The average Australian has less than two legs.

    Paris has perfect legs.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Happy

      and arms, testicles and penis(es)

      I'm proud to have more than the average for all of the above (I even have more than the average number of penises for males).

      :-)

      Note for pedants: The average to which I am referring is 'mean' and not 'mode' or even 'median', as both the mode and median number of penises for males in Australia is 1.

  18. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    @hitmouse

    Although paninis appears to now be acceptable as a plural according to the OED, in Italian the singular form is panino and panini is the plural.

  19. CaptainBlue
    Coat

    Two Pints of Lager and a Packet of Crisps, Please

    Don't worry, Aussies, the till at the pub you're working in will do the maths for you.

  20. Ray Mills
    Troll

    No wonder

    So many Kiwis are moving to aussie for jobs, the australian population is not qualified to do them.

  21. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Calls To Expand the 457 Visa Shortly?

    The results of surveys from the Industry Skills Council come out fairly frequently. Usually, there after comes demands for the 457 visa program to be expanded.

    See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/457_visa.

    A place I used to work apparently had unskilled staff in Accounting, IT and Administration.... needless to say the replacements were from an India outsourcing company who were getting paid I think about a 1/5 to 1/6 of the original wages.

    Please excuse my gramma, I'm an underskilled Australian.

  22. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    "journalists are a very disadvantaged group..."

    "... when it comes to interpreting statistics."

    Quite so. Nevermind statistics being a field that for serious work you use a statistician as even a mathematician might too easily get the numbers wrong.* The trouble is much more basic than that. What does an average mean, really? Very little unless you also know the standard deviation. High-school stuff. But most report writers haven't the faintest that this is the case. Journos don't either. And it's their job.

    Meaning that every time an average without standard deviation pops up and the hack _doesn't_ flag this, he's failing comprehension tests required for his work. Meaning that just about all hacks fall in that lower 46%. Q.E.D.

    * Oh the irony that the softer the science the higher the reliance on statistics to find anything.

  23. Dave Bell

    And another thing...

    Look at another of today's stories: 30th Anniversary of the Osborne portable computer.

    It's a bit of a rough calculation, but 2/5 of the working population will never have had the chance to learn anything about computers at school. (And that's the sort of rough mental calculation you would do if you were using a slide rule, so as to put the decimal point in the right place.)

    It's likely that over half the working population lack a computer literacy qualification.

  24. h4rm0ny
    Paris Hilton

    1 + 2 * 6

    I'm slightly worried about those respondents who objected to the above questions as "a trick", or thought that people shouldn't be expected to get it right. There is no "trick" if you have a basic education in arithmetic and the numbers are small and easy.

    Paris, because I would bet money that she could do it. Shameful to think the question is too tricksy for adults.

    1. Bill Fresher

      convolution

      Is the convolution of two constants zero? I can't remember.

      If it is the answer is 1.

  25. CheesyTheClown
    Unhappy

    Why single out Aussies?

    Let's be blunt. The reading level of the majority of the world is despicable. If you read the comments from The Register and from Slashdot, you'll quickly find that even the "elite" are bordering on unable to properly convert letters written on a page into the intended coherent thoughts. I myself am guilty of this as times.

    I remember reading a while back that there are two statistics within the United States for literacy. They are :

    - Can you see letters on a page and convert the letters into the intended sounds. So, if you see "C-A-T" then you can say the name of the household pet for which those letters represent when presented as such.

    - Can you read words and understand and interpret what it says.

    The first one, nearly everyone gets right. In fact, we're now to the point where 98% of Americans can turn letters into sounds.

    The second is a number that is so pathetically low that the CIA estimates the percentage somewhere between 30 and 50% of the population. (I'm working entirely from memory here, so if I'm off, feel free to correct).

    The point being that while we have by far the highest literacy rate ever in history now, we're still a long way off from teaching people how to read effectively. My 7 year old daughter and 9 year old son are required to read for their homework every day of the week. They read to themselves in Norwegian, but I require them to translate it to English when they read it back to me afterwards. This guarantees me that they understand what they're reading with full comprehension. Especially when they're choosing the right forms of the words during translating. They may hate me when they're older and in therapy for it. But, it's a gift I can give them which will help them throughout their lives.

  26. 4HiMarks
    Headmaster

    not Disraeli

    I always thought it was Mark Twain who said it, but he merely popularized it. He attributed it to Disraeli, but there is no evidence he ever said such a thing:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lies,_damned_lies,_and_statistics

    A statistician of my acquaintance had a quote on the door to his office that read:

    "It is true that it is easy to lie with statistics. But it is also impossible to tell the truth without them."

  27. Colin Millar
    Joke

    Lies, damned lies and..........

    news international stories written by media studies grads.

    Never argue with idiots.

    They'll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

  28. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    don't argue with stats, look to the schools

    [By way of context: I grew up in the UK and have friends and family with kids there now; I lived in AU where my own daughter started school and I now live in the US where her eduction continues ... this is a common problem]

    Before we write this off as FUD and pre-election political nonsense just have a think at the moment of the standard of education kids are getting. Stuff than we considered basic is now being taught later and later as "it's too hard for kids to get their heads around" and even basic learning strategies are being dismissed in favour of rote learning with no understanding of the underlying concepts.

    I don't mind my daughter now being taught her times tables because, unless she's on a desert island, she'll have a calculator... what I hate is her not being given enough number sense to know that there's no way 5 time 6 could be 22 or 48.

    Back in the day the school system was about creating good worker drones for the mills and mines, but it evolved and became a lot more over time. Sadly now it seems to be reverting to creating good little consumers who never question authority because they don't have the tools to realise there is a problem or frame the question

  29. Richard Porter
    Grenade

    Lies, damned lies etc

    Or my version: Lies, Wapping lies and Ministerial replies.

  30. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

    Maths with a calculator

    How does having a calculator help with maths?

    The only example I can think of is the proof of the 4 colour problem and that needed a bit more than a pocket calculator.

    (They are useful for arithmetic though)

  31. MeRp

    I couldn't help but notice...

    There is definitely a pessimist vs optimist thing going on with this story. The original interpretations of the report (by other journos) are all squarely in the pessimist camp (oh, woe is me; Australia is in the suck). The author also falls in this camp, though a bit more ambiguously.. but he does imply that, while it is un-exceptional for the situation to be like it is, there are all kinds of people who suck.

    I say: around 50% of Australians NEVER make a mistake when dealing with arithmetic, holy shit OMG, Australia kicks ASS!!!!!. What a high rate of perfection!

  32. F Seiler

    oh, a title

    In my mostly engineering work environment, i don't think i could reliably identify a single person who has never made made a mistake with numbers or never had difficulties properly understanding a paper.

  33. Jeremy T

    A few comments

    Everyone seems to be forgetting Richard's excellent article which points out how ambiguous the claims in the original report are and why they are ambiguous. I think it is an excellent article and clear enough to go to a much less technically inclined audience.

    @CheesyTheClown and others:

    While you may tut tut at standards, intelligence etc I don't think there is a problem based on how intelligent people are or how well they are educated. The statistics on intelligence don't change. People's abilities will fit a standard distribution. It probably is fair enough that only 30% or less can interpret or understand Maths/Statistics/Instructions/Whatever, it has probably always been so. Education will really only suit a certain percentage (much less than 50%) of the population and probably always has and probably always will. There was no golden age, different tasks are taught in different times. For instance my knowledge of trigonometry would be considered substandard by the generation preceding me and I was taught no Greek or Latin.

    On educational standards, the rest of the world is catching up with the West because the rest of the world is upgrading their own education policies. The West isn't where it is because of divine right, the West is where it is because of being the first to develop our 'successful' innovative culture. The rest of the world has been watching and adapting. It has always been so. We ourselves (Western European and derived cultures) used to emulate the Greeks, the Romans, the French, the Germans etcetera, does anyone remember if it was it the 90s when we were exhorted to emulate the Japanese ;) . Hopefully all education systems will end up absolutely equal, though I realise that is an ideal.

    On the subject of people that are not up to the required educational standard working in dangerous jobs. Surely they should be tested and fired if they are found a danger to themselves and others. If not enough intelligent workers can be found or enticed to work there, perhaps the facility should close or change its design, or more probably its pay scales ;) .

    Regards,

    Jeremy (living and educated in Australia)

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