back to article Council loses £2.5m claim against Big Blue

Southwark Council's claim for £2.5m in damages from IBM for supposedly faulty software has been dismissed. The court found that IBM had delivered the system as requested in 2007. It was bought through a framework agreement between the Treasury and IBM. The judge found that Southwark had chosen the software without even …

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  1. Chris Miller
    Stop

    So can we now look forward to

    Dismissal of those responsible - this does not mean early retirement on enhanced terms followed by reemployment as a consultant the following day? No, thought not.

  2. CD001

    Great

    So everyone's council tax in Southwark goes up a squidge to cover management incompetence at the council - marvellous.

    They didn't evaluate the software to ensure that it met their needs nor supply any specification as to what their needs were (if they had IBM _could_ have said, "erm, this ain't gonna do it")... it's like they've got "Andy" from Little Britain in charge just pointing at software and going "want that one".

    1. Code Monkey

      This happens nationwide

      We're all paying for council incompetence. Mostly there's no IT angle (nor Bulgarian airbag, nor poledances, nor any other angle to get in the Reg).

  3. Pete 2 Silver badge

    ha'porth of tar?

    If I had to guess, I'd say the procurement process went something like this:

    Southwark: We need a system to manage our houses

    SAP: Certainly, we have a very nice system - it'll cost you loadsamoney, but we're worth it

    S: We can't afford that, we're crap at collecting council tax, and it's such a dump our rates are below the english average

    SAP: Tough, that's the price

    S: <surfs the web> Ooooh, lookee here's one that sounds nice and it's cheap. It doesn't say if it'll do what we need, though

    S (boss): Cheap! - that's good enough, let's buy it.

    IBM: So you want to buy our software? Has anyone explained to you what it does or how to use it?

    S: Nope, but it's cheap. We want it.

    IBM: Only if you're reeeeeeeelly sure.

    S (massed skills of 6 negotiators): Oh, and can you knock off a bit, 'cos we're broke.

    IBM: Would you settle for a tee-shirt?

    S: A whole tee-shirt? it's a deal! When can you deliver (the tee-shirt, that is)?

    IBM It's in the post, with the software CD

    ... time passes

    S (boss) Times is tough. We'll have to let our negotiating team go (idle observation: if the negotiators were any good, couldn't they have persuaded the council to keep them on?)

    S (massed skills of 6 negotiators): CRY! but a at least we got a tee-shirt.

    ... more time passes

    Boss: I can't get this software to work. It can't possibly be my lack of skills, it must be faulty.

    Boss's boss: So, it's your fault?

    Boss: No, we must have been missold it, it must be unfit for purpose it can't possibly be my fault.

    Boss's boss: Let's see if those negotiators can remember why they bought it.

    6 negotiators: you sacked us, you're on your own buddy (or words to that effect)

    Boss's boss: Oh dear (or words to that effect)

    Boss: I know, let's sue someone. After all, we can always raise council tax to pay for the litigation (that's what we always do, for every cost we incur)

    Boss's boss: Great idea

    IBM's lawyer: Well, you didn't ask us if it would do what you need. But since we're nice guys we'll give you your money back, provided you return the tee-shirt.

    Boss: Nope - we want to make a point (though we're not quite sure what the point is)

    IBM: OK, see you in court.

    El Beaky: Case dismissed. Southwark must pay all the costs for messing IBM about and not being reasonable about a settlement.

    Southwark: Never mind, we'll just jack up the council tax .... oh, hang on, it's been frozen

    Boss's boss: Well, I'm not losing my big fat salary, we'll just have to fire a few proles.

    Boss: me neither. I still say it wasn't my fault. Let's sack the negotiators.

    Boss's boss: we already did that - that's why we lost.

    Boss: Oh ..... yeah.

  4. gerryg
    FAIL

    blackwhite doubleplusgood

    "The council must now pay IBM's costs - the exact figure is still being debated by both sides, but Southwark has promised that any payment would not hit front line services."

    So where is the money going to come from? Is it in the cashier's drawer for emergency petty cash?

    Is the operation so slack that they can squeeze it from somewhere trivial?

    Is someone from Southwarlk reading this and are they able to explain?

  5. Elmer Phud
    FAIL

    Ah, experts

    "The judge found that Southwark had chosen the software without even writing down any requirements it wanted IBM to follow"

    Bean counters at it again?

  6. turnip handler
    Thumb Up

    Analogy fun

    The best bit for me in this story is the car analogy.

    Not sure if he meant to compare IBM to a car salesman but I would have thought that wouldn't be a postive comparison...

    1. John H Woods Silver badge

      Yes, because ...

      ... at least the car salesman KNOWS when he's lying

  7. Anonymous Coward
    Flame

    Incandescent with rage

    HTF can a council spunk £2+ million without a spec, get burned, and NOBODY gets fired ?

    With stories like this around, why should I feel sorry for local coucils having money taken away from them ? They clearly can't be trusted with it.

    I wonder if Southwark council tax payers can now sue the council for criminal incompetence ?

    1. Tom Wood
      Coat

      Were the requirements specified?

      "I wonder if Southwark council tax payers can now sue the council for criminal incompetence ?"

      Did anyone mention that you wanted your council to be competent when you voted for them? Or did you just stab at the ballot sheet with a bit of crayon and go "I want that one".

      Come to think of it...

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Happy

        Technocracy

        "Did anyone mention that you wanted your council to be competent when you voted for them? "

        Your suggestion is a Technocracy, government by those best qualified to govern.

        However it does lack democratic accountability, but as Winston Churchil put it "the best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter"

        My version is that people get the government/council they deserve, when they couldn't be bothed to turn out and vote.

    2. Bronek Kozicki
      Heart

      watch this space

      .... there is bound to be cuts in Southwark,and just as services are cut someone will remember this failure.

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Happy

      Ref: Incandescent with rage

      "I wonder if Southwark council tax payers can now sue the council for criminal incompetence ?"

      Sorry last labour government got rid of surcharging, along with lots of other democratic accountability ideas. (Dame Shirley was your last chance to see this in action)

      "HTF can a council spunk £2+ million without a spec, get burned, and NOBODY gets fired ?"

      1) Councils have other methods of "replacing" under-performing members of staff, it would not necesisarily be "Cheif Exec sacked for failed procurement deal" in the local news, more like, "new head of procurement wanted following early retirement", just like in the police.

      2)They probably got there by a head of service, who thought the local IT team "obstructive", because they kept asking for specs, req. defs, testing, training, that sort of time wasting stuff, and hence did an end-run around them with the procurement team (this is normal), followed by said manager jumping ship just before it hits the fan (where was Audit?)

      "With stories like this around, why should I feel sorry for local coucils having money taken away from them ? They clearly can't be trusted with it."

      Well most council staff try and do a good job with the limited resources available. I have personally seen large IT installs go in, and the bean counters cut the training budget out, "to save money" (yes, buy an HGV but don't train the car driver you put in it, and wonder why there are expensive accidents!)

      You failed to ask the obvious question, how did the council solicitor let this non-starter of a case get to court, wasting lots more money. I would personally suggest they need a new head of legal.

  8. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    I'd have been surprised

    if IBM had lost this. Software is pretty much always what the customer asked for, not what they wanted, which is why everyone will formally document and log what they are asked for.

    It's purely so that later on you can point to it and cover yourself

  9. Riscyrich
    FAIL

    No front line services will be effected?

    Yeah, yeah....

    Also:

    >> He also questioned why Southwark had failed to produce any of six people involved in the early negotiations as witnesses.

    Because they got sacked? Oh hang on, it's a council - they were probably promoted beyond incompetence...

  10. Scott 19
    Coat

    Costs

    Just bump up the council tax by a tenner should sort out the costs of this court case the council had to bring to prove there not a bunch of muppets...

    ....what a bunch of muppets.

  11. Anonymous Coward
    Thumb Down

    Requirements

    If the customer can't write down the definition of success (of the project), then they can't very well accuse the provider of failure. Such is my statement to my current shower of fools who want the moon on a stick.

  12. Code Monkey

    Frank Zappa was right

    It's not hydrogen that's the most common element. It's stupidity

  13. Mike123456
    FAIL

    If I've said it once...

    Public servants do not deserve their cushy position.

    Bunch of inept morons.

    If a company were run on the same lines the Government/Council, it's be laughed out of existence.

    1. John Sturdy

      The true purposes of the public sector

      The public sector doesn't all exist purely to perform its notional functions -- it also has a social function, of providing a more dignified form of unemployment, helping its employees to imagine that they're doing something useful. It also keeps the people who would wreck any company that employs them, out of the private sector; after all, there are people it is worth paying to stay out of the real workforce.

  14. The Alpha Klutz

    PEBKAC

    Council: Can you sell us your Internet Explorer?

    IBM: This isn't Internet Explorer.

    Council: We want the Internet Explorer.

    IBM: We're not Microsoft

    Council: Give us an Internet Explorer.

    IBM: Fine, hand over the money.

    Council: Here you go. Does anyone know how to use Internet Explorer?

  15. Harry

    "you wanted your council to be competent when you voted for them"

    The problem here is that you only get the chance to vote for the people who manage the window dressing, not the people who actually make the day to day decisions.

    At best, the council officers will have given the councillors a report containing a budget for 73 items totalling umpteen million and the councillors will use it to score political points against each other, perhaps get one or two items deleted but by and large will have very little choice but to rubber stamp what their officers have proposed. They don't have either the time or the knowledge to influence where they actually spend that budget.

    Maybe its time that old phrase "nobody ever got fired for buying IBM" was proved a reckless decision.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Happy

      Councilors and accountability

      The councillors are suppose to set policy, and provide scrutiny.

      For a large item, say an HR Payroll system, the councillors should be asking what the options are, and why are you going in that direction.

      Bottom line is that whilst they are not going to be experts at all the 400 odd business functions in a council, they can ask tough questions, grill officers making decisions, and stop things until they are happy that the money is (a) needed, and (b) well managed.

      Unfortunately the above is good theory, and I have only seen it in practice in one directorate of one large council, most others ranged along a scale of "my son could do this in access, why do we need this expensive oracle thing" (4m record database), through councilor oposing the project he proposed when he was in office, but now in opposition thinks he can get votes out of rubishing it, to cancelation of an IT security project to pay for new park benches, just before an election.

      Anybody with ideas for a better system however, should write to one "Nick Clegg" c/o of Dave of Downing Street.

  16. Anonymous Coward
    Stop

    T!tle

    Will the head of Southwark IT and the head of the Council please resign for being incompetent.

    Thanks.

  17. John Smith 19 Gold badge
    WTF?

    No *written* requirements and no council witnesses called

    HTF could the council (this would seem to need the support of *elected* officials, not just senior unelected staff) *believe* they could win this one to the point they'd hire QC's at whatever an hour they charge these days and put it in play.

    "We trusted the supplier" only works if you made an actual effort to find out if what they were selling was *fit* for purpose in the first place.

    I feel for the council tax payers who, one way or another, will get the sh***y end of this particular pole in reduced services one way or the other.

  18. Alan Firminger

    Details

    The Chief Executive of Southwark Council, Bob Coomber, was also the Finance Director. And he left recently, watch Private Eye.

    And the expense of 2 M could not occur without member's approval. But Southwark have made bigger blunders that this and there was little response.

  19. Displacement Activity
    Happy

    Oh, the irony...

    How heart-warming to read that cllr. Richard Livingstone, the "cabinet member" for finance at Southwark council, was on the anti-cuts demo "with a 100 strong Southwark Labour contingent".

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/blog/2011/mar/26/march-for-the-alternative-live-blog-updates

    1. Displacement Activity

      NFTR

      Having a hard time starting work this morning. For more amusement, see cllr. Livingstone's job description at http://moderngov.southwarksites.com/mgExecPostDetails.aspx?ID=310:

      "To ensure sound business planning and financial probity within the corporate framework, including the medium term financial strategy and all financial management of revenue and capital, the capital programme and the management of capital receipts. To ensure the availability and prioritisation of resources to meet the cabinet’s priorities".

      His particular responsibilities include "provision of ICT", and "Corporate procurement".

  20. Anonymous Coward
    Welcome

    AC, Cause I am one of them

    We do multiple large system purchases and to be sure, we do full analysys.

    If we don't understand a point or see how the "system" is fit for purpose we get the supplier to prove it to us first.

    In fact in any negotiations I am part of one of the things I insist on is that supplier give his opinion (with salt cellar attached) on if this is the right product, they will either then show their knowledge of the product or lack............

    Thankfully we have been saved from getting burnt a few times... Or should that be due to due diligence we have purchased the right product from diligent analysis

    But we do have other areas of the Business who take great delight in coming to us and saying they just bought XYZ now find a use for it.... They are shown the door quiet quickly and asked to book it down for the auditors to look at as to why they failed.

    It has taken us years of consistant beligerance to get to the state where the business actually listens to us and follows the correct procedures, but we got there.

    More and more of this is needed with in the Public Sector, but each dept see's themselves as they empire and nought shall move it from it's path of destiny

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