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back to article British armed forces get first new pistol since World War II

The British regular forces are to receive their first new pistol since World War II, as the long-serving Browning 9mm sidearm is replaced by a new weapon from the well-known Austrian firm Glock. Out with the old, in with the new The new pistol is the Glock 17 Gen4, which fires the same NATO standard 9x19mm cartridge as its …

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          1. eldel
            Reply Icon

            Re: shooting Glock 17 from a UK newbie.

            I've taught gun safety and how to shoot. The dangerous and silly things an untrained person will do with a handgun will turn your hair gray.

            I used to run a ladies handgun training class - I always knew I was in for a stressful evening when 2 friends would come in together for their first class. They always want to 'share' the experience - which means turning to speak to their friend. Normally forgetting about the bang stick in the hand.

            On the plus side - they do listen - which makes them a damn sight easier to teach than the guys that come in convinced they can outshoot John Wayne because they've watched the movies. How often do you have to explain that gangsta style shooting is just on the screen and that 9mm handguns do not have an infinite magazine.

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          2. N2
            Reply Icon

            Re: shooting Glock 17 from a UK newbie.

            "The dangerous and silly things an untrained person will do with a handgun will turn your hair grey."

            Agreed, when I was range qualified, we had the cheap and nasty SMG & when the weapon was being cocked, if not done correctly, it could chamber a round & fire, even though the safety catch was on - shudder!

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            2. Trevor Marron
              Reply Icon

              Re: shooting Glock 17 from a UK newbie.

              "Agreed, when I was range qualified, we had the cheap and nasty SMG & when the weapon was being cocked, if not done correctly, it could chamber a round & fire, even though the safety catch was on - shudder!"

              When I was a SAA instructor I had a cadet student on the range cock his SMG with a cupped hand in the rain. He only got the working parts back past the magazine before the cocking lever slipped out of his hand. The resulting bang and sight of a smoking hole in the ground by the toe of my boot remained with me for a long time. It was early in my career as a SAA and something I made sure would not happen again.

              That said, I liked the SMG, it was basic but it worked almost always.

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          3. Anonymous Coward
            Reply Icon
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: shooting Glock 17 from a UK newbie.

            I would be happy to have a full background check, training, psych evaluation and cavity search to be able to simply own a few hand guns and be allowed use them at a target range...... all i can use now is black powder guns...

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            1. Matt Bryant Silver badge
              Reply Icon
              Flame

              Re: Re: shooting Glock 17 from a UK newbie.

              ".....to be able to simply own a few hand guns and be allowed use them at a target range...... all i can use now is black powder guns..." Well, not quite. You can still purchase and use a lot of rifles that in many US States you would be refused, and keep them all at home in your approved gun cabinet. And shotguns too. Both a lot more deadly than handguns. For a bit of pistol-shooting it's still possible to nip over to France or Norway and go guest on one of their ranges. But, what the Heck, banning handguns in the UK cut down on guncrime, didn't it? Oh - no it didn't.

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          4. fajensen
            Reply Icon

            Re: shooting Glock 17 from a UK newbie.

            While visiting Knoxville, Tennessee, I visited in the gun-department of the sports shop. A customer looks down the barrel of an (unloaded) gun.

            I heard this gem: "Excuse me sir! See, that part being where the bullet comes out, we want to point that away from yourself at all times sir," - in a very heavy southern accent. That made me laugh.

            PS, I liked Knoxville, very friendly and relaxed place.

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          5. Anonymous Coward
            Reply Icon
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: shooting Glock 17 from a UK newbie.

            "Any shop that would hand a pistol and ammo to someone who never shot before is criminally negligent at best, and flatly stupid at worst."

            True

            And here in the UK, despite several goes at improving safety through more firearms legislation, there is still no training requirement for a Section 1, 2, or 5 firearms liscense.

            Want to drive a car, pass the test and written exam.

            Want a gun, sure, just make sure you get two masons to sign off saying you are a good person.

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    2. Anonymous Coward
      Reply Icon
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: shooting Glock 17 from a UK newbie.

      Totally agree, hand guns should be legal in the UK, criminals will just buy illegal guns, steal guns or use knives... banning guns don't stop crime

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      1. Sorry that handle is already taken. Silver badge
        Reply Icon
        FAIL

        Re: "banning guns don't [sic] stop crime"

        Oh good lord. Nobody ever claimed it did.

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      2. Rampant Spaniel
        Reply Icon

        Re: shooting Glock 17 from a UK newbie.

        The UK didn't ban guns? It restricted the type of guns you could own, where you could have them and got strict on loonies having them. I grew up around guns, they're a tool. In the wrong hands at the wrong time they're incredibly destructive. In the hands of a drunk farmer they're excellent for controlling vermin and keeping a chest freezer well stocked.

        The argument for restricting guns to some degree isn't that it would stop crime but that it would make a dent in the many thousands of people who are shot and die each year either by reducing the number of incidents or the severity of them when they do happen. It's also one part of a very wide range of solutions that need to be looked at. They need to drown that idiot in charge of the nra, his BS is going to result in us having even less freedom to use guns for recreation, sport and protection.

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      3. jason 7
        Reply Icon
        Happy

        Re: shooting Glock 17 from a UK newbie.

        As a 41 year old living in the UK I am more than happy that handguns are banned.

        That ban affected very few people (just collectors and a few other individuals) and was no great loss.

        So in my 41 years of living in the UK I have never seen a handgun in the hands of anyone but an armed Police Officer. I have never been threatened with a handgun. Never been shot at. Never seen any direct evidence of their use in my daily life or never had any of my friends hurt, killed or threatened with one either.

        I'm more than happy for it to stay that way.

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        1. Anonymous Coward
          Reply Icon
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: shooting Glock 17 from a UK newbie.

          > That ban affected very few people (just collectors and a few other individuals) and was no great loss.

          Try asking the people who if actually affected if it was no great loss.

          > So in my 41 years of living in the UK I have never seen a handgun in the hands of anyone but an armed Police Officer. I have never been threatened with a handgun. Never been shot at. Never seen any direct evidence of their use in my daily life or never had any of my friends hurt, killed or threatened with one either.

          I have a special rock here that keeps bears away; would you like to buy it?

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          1. jason 7
            Reply Icon
            Facepalm

            Re: shooting Glock 17 from a UK newbie.

            @AC 4.17GMT

            So a few people lost their toys. So what.

            I guess you are from the other side of the pond and a gun supporter? I guess the concept of people not feeling they need firearms and not having ever been directly affected by them either fills you with dread or jealousy?

            Me? I fell pretty relaxed about it all. Handguns...we never needed them in the UK, totally different culture with regards to the needs of firearms. The country was largely settled and tamed before firearms even appeared.

            From my experience of living with folks in the US, many nasty situations would be avoided if they just locked their doors and windows at night. Kind of a vaccine rather than a messy cure.

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            1. Matt Bryant Silver badge
              Reply Icon
              Boffin

              Re: Re: shooting Glock 17 from a UK newbie.

              ".....The country was largely settled and tamed before firearms even appeared....." Nope. Victorian Britain had such endemic levels of crime that gentlemen in cities like London carried firearms as a matter of habit. The popular "Bulldog" pocket revolvers of the 19th century originated from British designs, notably that of Webley & Sons, and were widely sold and copied across Europe and the US. In the mid-1800s, you were actually more likely to die due to criminal violence in London than on the Frontiers of the Wild West! Up until the 1920 Firearms Act (which was spurred by a fear of the "Bolshevik" revolutions sweeping Europe), many small villages in the UK had popular shooting clubs and rifle ranges were very common. I was reminded of this only a week ago when I visited friends in Jersey, which has always had very low crime rates, and we walked past the Victorian rifle range outside the tiny hamlet of Grouville (still in use by the local club).

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            2. Anonymous Coward
              Reply Icon
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: shooting Glock 17 from a UK newbie.

              Here in the UK you are also unlikely to need to deal with a bear coming in through the side of your caravan.

              When we moved pistols from S1 to S5, we also lost out on winning gold medals at pistol competitions, so given the number of people killed and injured at football matches, versus those killed an injured by legally held firearms issued in acordance to the letter of the firearms acts, the logic would be to ban footballs for everybody except ManU Players. (except you can't spin that as a vote winner amongst the largely ill informed UK public)

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        2. Anonymous Coward
          Reply Icon
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: shooting Glock 17 from a UK newbie.

          "So in my 41 years of living in the UK I have never seen a handgun in the hands of anyone but an armed Police Officer. I have never been threatened with a handgun. Never been shot at. Never seen any direct evidence of their use in my daily life or never had any of my friends hurt, killed or threatened with one either."

          If you where close enough to see a met or thames valley firearms officer, you where probably at risk, and just didn't realise it.

          The safest place on the planet I have every been to, was late night on a friday at the main railway station in Zurich, wall to wall assult rifles, along with the 18 to 45 year olds carrying them, and not a mugger in sight!

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    3. jason 7
      Reply Icon

      Re: shooting Glock 17 from a UK newbie.

      The Gf and I were in Vegas a few years ago and I wanted to go along to a gun shop to try some out.

      Off we went and the Gf had a 9mm auto to try out (wasnt a glock) and quite enjoyed that.

      I on the other hand first asked to try a M16 in 5.56mm. Quite nice, pulls up and to the right. I reckon a few more clips and I would have got the hang of it just fine. On semi auto or auto it really gets through the rounds quick. Blip blip blip and you are done. This wasnt the pre mid 70's clip size either.

      Then I asked rather cagily if they had anything in .44 Magnum calibre. Well you have to really. So the guy smiled, reached under the counter and pulled out a stainless steel Ruger with a 9" barrel. "This do?" he asked.

      So there I was left alone with a .44 and twenty rounds. Found it not that hard to shoot, quite a kick. Must say my right thumb ached a bit the next day.

      If I go again I might try the Barrett Light 50 and a classic Browning .45.

      When we walked on the range someone was trying out a Thomson 'Tommy gun'. That had to be heard to be believed, even with ear defenders.

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      1. Anonymous Coward
        Reply Icon
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: shooting Glock 17 from a UK newbie.

        A military friend of mine was once posted to a job where a pistol would have been utterly useless in any foreseeable attack. So to emphasise the stupidity of an officer having to have a sidearm, he carried a Thomson.

        This being the British Army, he later discovered that his successor was told it was a tradition that the base CO carried a Thomson.

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  2. sgtrock
    Joke

    Maybe NATO should follow the lead of the USMC?

    http://www.stripes.com/news/after-30-years-the-marines-are-returning-to-the-colt-45-pistol-1.186159

    I'm sure that Colt would be willing to license manufacturing to a solid UK firm. ;-)

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    1. bitten
      Reply Icon

      Re: Maybe NATO should follow the lead of the USMC?

      The Browning (FN HP) was already an improvement on the Colt 45 (a Browning from 1900). So the US went back in time to an earlier Browning.

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      1. pball
        Reply Icon

        Re: Maybe NATO should follow the lead of the USMC?

        Except the 1911 has both a thumb safety and a grip safety, it was designed to be and has been proven over the course of 100 years to be absolutely safe to carry with a round in the chamber and the hammer cocked. Granted it's only 7+1, but if ya need more than 8 .45 rounds, you never should have put that rifle down in the first place.

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  3. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Enjoy it while it lasts

    Consider these good times for the military. I reckon 5 years after we're out of the middle east, budget cuts will result in Tommy Jenkins having to go over the top, point his finger at the enemy and shout, "Bang!".

    The report into the ensuing inquiry into what the press will dub "the 21st century charge of the light brigade" will conclude that Johnny Foreigners was simply a bad sport on the day and didn't play fair.

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    1. Rampant Spaniel
      Reply Icon

      Re: Enjoy it while it lasts

      Wasn't that what they had to do at the navy training academy due to lack of funds?

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    2. Ian 31
      Reply Icon
      WTF?

      Re: Enjoy it while it lasts

      Tommy Jenkins? It's Tommy Atkins you're looking for.

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  4. Anonymous Coward
    Joke

    I guess someone at the MOD finally got themselves a Cypress Hill album

    That is all.

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  5. Boris the Cockroach Silver badge
    IT Angle

    Stuff the L115A

    I want an AS-50 (also made by the same company)

    Sidearms are for wimps who let the enemy sneak up on them.... kill everyone within 1000 yrds with a .50 cal round and people learn 2 important things... 1. you dont need sidearms for your troops and 2 the locals stay well clear of you.

    Brg.Gen. Boris 'mad dog' Cockroach KBE DSE BSE, care of "sunny view" retirement home for ex-loonies and tory peers

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    1. sjs298
      Reply Icon
      Gimp

      Re: Stuff the L115A

      "I want an AS-50 (also made by the same company)"

      Old news bro (like it's from 2007 dude)... you now want an AX-50 ;o)

      http://www.accuracyinternational.com/ax50.php

      Although they do an AX-338 which is probably good enough for plinking targets in your back yard.

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      1. Boris the Cockroach Silver badge
        Reply Icon
        IT Angle

        Re: Stuff the L115A

        Yes , but you're missing the point ..

        The AS50 is semi-auto while the AX50 is still a bolt action.

        And the AX338... good for plinking... if your back garden is long enough..... about 1200 -1600 yrds

        Right the nurses have come round with my medication again

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        1. SkippyBing
          Reply Icon

          Re: Stuff the L115A

          At some point while the Navy were reminding me how to shoot, in case it came in handy, our instructor mentioned that a bolt action rifle is better for a sniper as with a semi-auto you get some kick back before the round has left the barrel which can put your shot off enough to miss at the sort of ranges they work at.

          Having heard an AS50 go off it's considerably louder than an M3M firing 600 .50 cal rounds a minute, f**k knows why but despite being warned every time it was fired it was still alarming.

          My weapon of choice? The M3M door mounted on a helicopter, you can walk the rounds in* to the target and then f**k off at speed.

          *The manual says not to do that, but it's the only way to be sure.

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          1. Robert Sneddon
            Reply Icon

            Re: Stuff the L115A

            "a bolt action rifle is better for a sniper as with a semi-auto you get some kick back before the round has left the barrel which can put your shot off enough to miss"

            Old wives tale. A rifle bullet as used in sniper work (7.62mm or the newer .338 Mag) takes less than 2 millieconds to clear the muzzle after firing whether in a bolt-action or a self-loading rifle. The gas-operated piston in a self-loader doesn't start to move until well after the bullet is gone, never mind unlocking the bolt and starting extraction. Felt recoil from the shot is the same whatever weapon you fire, pretty much.

            A bolt-action has better repeatability shot to shot compared to a self-loader with better control of the headspacing, cartridge seating in the breech etc. which means better accuracy at range. It's also lighter and more compact than an autoloader in the same calibre, important for a sniper who often has to carry all their own kit for long distances in rough terrain and it's more reliable too with fewer moving bits to go wrong.

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            1. SkippyBing
              Reply Icon

              Re: Stuff the L115A

              To be fair that's probably what he said, the ravages of time and alcohol simplifying the explanation to something my fragile little mind could retain!

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              1. Psyx
                Reply Icon
                Thumb Up

                Re: Stuff the L115A

                "To be fair that's probably what he said, the ravages of time and alcohol simplifying the explanation to something my fragile little mind could retain!"

                Nah: He probably said it. It's one of those enduring myths.

                There are arguments either way with marksman weapons. Semis are faster-firing for follow-up, have less gubbins, and don't require the shooter to move between shots (throwing aim and attracting attention, potentially). Bolt actions don't throw brass around until you want them to.

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  6. John F***ing Stepp

    Having owned 9s and 44s

    For personal defense neither is perfect.

    The 9 (a S&W 59) was somewhat underpowered and would lead one to use up ammo for a positive takedown.

    This is fine for the police but I, personally, do not want to injure or kill a bystander (the police have insurance and attorneys).

    The 44 (a S&W 659) had only 6 shots but would stop a Mack truck; over penetration and inaccuracy were other downsides; again, bystanders.

    I currently have a pair of 1911 single stacks; 18 shots overall and the caliber still has the number 4 in it.

    After firing a 44 magnum, a 45 feels a bit like the old 22 caliber target pistol I had as a kid*.

    Best choice for defense seems to be, not being in a place where crap happens and not pissing the crazies off (being thought of as one of said crazies helps a lot too).

    *'Murica.

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    1. John Smith 19 Gold badge
      Reply Icon
      Happy

      Re: Having owned 9s and 44s

      Real nice work on your daughters laptop.

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    2. Danny 14
      Reply Icon
      Stop

      Re: Having owned 9s and 44s

      A single 9mm will put someone down. Gunshot wounds are no laughing matter. People who preach about stopping power of pistol rounds have only ever been on a range and most certainly never seen the effects of being shot by a single bullet.

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      1. Psyx
        Reply Icon
        Go

        Re: Having owned 9s and 44s

        "A single 9mm will put someone down."

        Eventually. Something like a 60% first-round take-down according to studies, as I recall. .45 ACP is barely any improvement. The whole ".45 is awesome and drops people in one shot straight away" thing is a big pile of donkey poo.

        The key is to shoot someone in the right place, or do it a few times!

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    3. Ian Michael Gumby
      Reply Icon
      Boffin

      Re: Having owned 9s and 44s

      Maybe you should try different ammo.

      There are some 9mm rounds that have a lot of stopping power.

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      1. annodomini2
        Reply Icon
        Thumb Down

        Re: Having owned 9s and 44s

        DumDum's, Hollow points or other types of expanding bullet are banned in international warfare under the 1899 Hague convention.

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        1. Matt Bryant Silver badge
          Reply Icon
          Boffin

          Re: annodomini2 Re: Having owned 9s and 44s

          "DumDum's, Hollow points or other types of expanding bullet are banned in international warfare under the 1899 Hague convention." Well, yes and no. The intention was to stop the use of bullets designed specifically for their wounding ability, such as the Dum Dum which was little more than an ordinary FMJ round with the covering brass peeled back to expose the lead center of the bullet - when the bullet hit, the soft lead mushroomed and caused a larger wound. The rules were drafted to stop the use of the day's technology.

          The intention was that forcing all parties to use FMJ bullets would eliminate the use of "extra-wounding" rounds, but the reality is it was simply designed around, most notoriously by the British .303 MkVII bullet. Whilst the MkVII had a FMJ, it had a lighter material in the nose than the lead at the tail of the bullet, making it unstable upon deflection or impact. It was designed to fly straight and then topple upon impact rather than drill straight through. The result was the bullet was massively more damaging than other rifle rounds of the day, but it was still "legal" in the terms of the Convention.

          More recently there are the "anvil bullets", designs which have a FMJ and a hard metal penetrator in the nose to aid penetration of bodyarmour. It was found early on in developing such rounds that when the bullet hits, the hard penetrator slows as it pierces the target, but inertia means the lead behind carries on forward and smears outward behind the penetrator. By shaping the rear of the penetrator, it is possible to force the lead out so it splits the FMJ and mushrooms more than normally, effectively making the bullet more damaging to fleshies. In essence, such designs conform with the Convention, but are expanding bullets.

          The Russian 5.45x39mm 7N10 is an example of the purpose-designed anvil bullet that is still compliant with convention. Unhappiness with the SS109 not fragmenting and expanding enough when fired from the short-barreled M4 made the US look at anvil designs. Hilariously, they sold the public on the new M855A1 round by hyping its "environmentally-friendly" lack of lead! They kept very quiet about how it's "stacked cone" penetrator design enhanced mushrooming and made it more wounding than the old SS109 bullet, but still Convention compliant.

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  7. Stevie

    I don't understand.

    I had apprehended from various media sources that current state of the art in military equipage was a Barret .50 cal in one hand and a Chainsaw in the other for personal close combat defense or one of those drum-fed grenade launcher tommy guns with an integral lightsaber bayonet.

    All this talk of handguns seems rather quaint.

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    1. Rampant Spaniel
      Reply Icon

      Re: I don't understand.

      No waist mounted 60 cal? :-)

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  8. Glenn Amspaugh
    WTF?

    Zmodem thrash

    Sigh. In WWII we had rifles with big .30 cal rounds and pistols with big .45 cal rounds. Know why we went to smaller rounds? Be cause big weapons and ammo are heavy! And every year they're coming up with more and more stuff to carry, while still keeping things in the mythical 80-90lb range (275 kilos-centigrades/hp per gallon if my American metrics maths is correct).

    Also, there's all sorts of special forces that do get to choose their own gear. Ya don't hear about any of them using DE's do ya?

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  9. Herby

    Of course there are alternatives

    A nice small nuclear weapon will cure LOTS of things in short order. Of course it has instructions kinda like fireworks:

    "Light fuse and run away".

    As the saying goes: "Closeness only counts in horseshoes and atom bombs".

    All in all an interesting discussion, even for one who likes personal weapons, but doesn't have one.

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    1. Swarthy
      Reply Icon
      Mushroom

      Re: Of course there are alternatives

      The phrase I was taught by my father was "Horseshoes, hand grenades, and the occasional atom bomb."

      <--As he never played horseshoes, and wouldn't let me use hand grenades.....

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  10. peter 45

    Odd story

    'cos about 7 years ago I was introduced, and taught to shoot, the Glock as the new replacement personal weapon for the British Army. Wonder what happened?

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  11. Dodgy Geezer Silver badge
    WTF?

    I was expecting....

    ... a re-issue of the C96 Mauser Broomhandle.

    At least that would have style. And it looks good on the wall. And it's sighted up to 1000 yd, with an effective range of about 200. I've always wondered about that one...

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    1. cortland
      Reply Icon

      Re: I was expecting....

      An elevation screw and trunnions, perhaps.

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    2. Psyx
      Reply Icon
      Pint

      Re: I was expecting....

      "I've always wondered about that one..."

      My car's speedo goes up to 150mph, too...

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  12. Don Jefe

    Sig Sauer

    I find it odd they didn't adopt the Sig Sauer pistols. They already have some & costs are comparable, using the Glock just creates more procurement & service work. I like a Glock just fine but why make extra work for yourself?

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