back to article The moment a computer crash nearly caused my car crash

I very nearly had a terrible car accident: my car almost left me stranded on the tracks of my city's light rail transit. The short version of the story is that my car started acting up, of all times, as I was on the way to the mechanic for an oil change. “Acting up” in this case meant refusing to go above 20kph (12.4mph) for …

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  1. G.Y.

    winter mode

    I once had a Volvo 850 go into winter mode (i.e. start off in 3trd gear), with no known way to take it out of that.

    A LONG weekend later, the dealer told me you have to power-cycle the electrics 4-6 times and then the computer resets to sane mode.

    Merging with traffic, when the computer insists on 3rd gear, can be interesting ...

    Problem was nowhere documented.

    The Windows 3-fingered salute would have been a great improvement.

  2. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Professional Design?

    Hell no, mate. Obviously these things need to continue to be designed in Low Cost Countries by teenagers who may not have owned or ever driven a car ... that's the only way to keep costs down where they belong! Who the hell cares about user experience? UE doesn't contribute to ROI.

    Mine's the one with the bonus cheque in the pocket.

  3. Martin Usher
    Thumb Down

    Light Rail Trains have Brakes, too....

    You get collisions between light rail trains and cars when people do dumb things like turn suddenly in front of the train. The train can stop but it can't swerve so you get a collision and by the rule of rail transport the train wins. (....every time)

    If you're stuck on light rail tracks then the train operator is going to see you and stop. Light rail works among people so the vehicles are designed to stop quite quickly and they're driven with the expectation that things are going to get in the way. You're not in much danger.

    (Now if this was a proper level crossing --- say on a curve with 100mph trains passing -- then, sorry, you're toast....)

    1. Trevor_Pott Gold badge

      @Martin Usher

      Probably true. Though this is not the type of thing that goes through your mind at the moment of.

  4. Local Group
    Joke

    Infiniti even has a check light for this:

    It's an icon of a floor mat jammed under a gas pedal. It hasn't lighted up yet.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Your joke isn't very good

      Given that it was Toyota/Lexus that had the floor mat design problems that caused the gas pedal to get stuck, and not Infiniti/Nissan.

      Even then its still not funny, better luck next time and don't give up your day job......

      1. Local Group
        Childcatcher

        My joke is perfectly fine. Somebody else blew a gasket.

        I still chuckle when I see it. Heh. Heh. A floor mat under as gas pedal.

        Infiniti/Nissan didn't have a problem because they provided a warning light.

        Lexus/Toyota had the problem because they didn't.

        Your sense of humor is being recalled.

  5. John Savard

    Obviously

    Obviously, there should have been some kind of display on the dashboard on which the computer in question explained what it was doing - and why - giving the driver the opportunity to override it.

    I don't care that it is possible to complain that "oh, this would be too complicated".

  6. Johan Bastiaansen
    FAIL

    oh pulease

    On the interwebs, everybody is such a skilled driver that he doesn't need ABS.

    In real life, with only a couple of days of icy roads a year (with the last 2 winters being an exception), the majority of the drivers doesn't have any recent experience with emergency braking in icy conditions.

    But that's all beside the point. ABS isn't really a computer system is it?

    The problem is in the attitude towards safety in these modern times. I know I sound like an old fart, but most people seem to think "it will be alright ". And they’re right, most of the time.

    But safety isn’t about “most of the time”. Safety is about “what if”. And the modern concept of safety seems to based on the notion that the “what if” situation is very unlikely. So, it will be alright.

    An example. I had a very similar situation with relay 109 on my VW tdi acting up, stalling the engine. VW knew there was a problem with it and the dealers were ordered to replace this relay quietly. Perhaps they were compensated. Perhaps not. My dealer didn’t replace the relay and my engine started stalling. I brought the car in, but they couldn’t find anything. I googled it, “relay 109” came up. and I printed it out for them. "Naah, that couldn’t be it." Then the engine shut down on the highway with no hard shoulder. I was lucky and survived. I went to another dealer, and he replaced the relay.

    Everybody was happy. I was happy because I survived. The original dealer was happy because he saved some money not replacing the relay. The other dealer was happy because he got a new customer and he has sold me 3 cars since then.

    So, the problem is only partly with the complexity of modern systems. The major contributor is the “naah, it’ll be alright” attitude.

    1. Vic

      > ABS isn't really a computer system is it?

      Modern ones are.

      Vic.

  7. WhizzMan

    Wrong diagnose

    The symptoms (multiple occurrences of flapping speedo, stalling car, but no blocking wheels) and the multiple sensor error when read out, point to a totally different cause. One single occurrence of black ice will not trigger your speedo to go wild multiple times. There aren't multiple vibration sensors in any engine. There are knock sensors, that will help determine the optimal ignition timing, but those never trigger "errors".

    If you have multiple errors on unrelated sensors and your dash behaving like a UFO just flew by, you have a bad ground problem. Either your engine or the ECU isn't grounded properly. That will make the ECU unable to read out sensors, drive actuators and it will "leak current" to everything attached, such as your speedo dial.

    I'm predicting this will come back, because there is an intermittent grounding problem somewhere in your car. The guy in the garage can't even use his brain anymore and thinks the computer readout must be right and someone here blames it all on a software bug, instead of a simple hardware problem that has happened since cars had electrics built on them. Flaky light bulbs that only work if you whack on the fixture are common. If a car mechanic can't diagnose or fix a simple problem like that, he shouldn't be fixing cars for a living.

  8. Gordon 8
    Flame

    Hot Air

    There seems to be a lot of hot air being released here (Warning more to come...)

    Yes, there are lessons to be learned from this story

    Car electronics can be confused

    Drivers need to be aware that systems are not perfect

    Always think safety first.

    But there is also some FUD. Let me add some more....

    I get pissed off here in Singapore when my van has an annual inspection (mandatory). The guys who do the inspection don't look after the system and when they have finished the dash has a bunch of warning lights. When I raised it with them it's the rules they have to follow, I am concerned that they are creating an error situation that is not necessary..... I need the van for work, so have no choice.

    What I can do is keep an eye on the systems, and work with a mechanic I trust to check on they systems (I no longer trust the main dealer - they can't spot that the van had a flat tyre....).

    My attitude - Common Sense. Maybe the driving test should also test for Common Sense - too many drivers don't seem to want to use it!

  9. norman
    Pint

    The Mazda top of the line RX8 GT has one of the best traction control/stability control packages on the market; and is the reason I bought the "low end" RX8 "sport" model that does not have this "feature".......

    1. Jim 59

      rx8 / mx5

      Are you confusing an MX5 with an RX8 ?

  10. CheesyTheClown
    Meh

    Am I the only one who thinks ABS makes it worse?

    There are very few things in this world worse than sliding on ice and trying to pump the break strategically at intervals to regain control of the car and the ABS limiting your ability to make controlled actions.

    I live in Norway... yesterday it took me 5 minutes to get my car out of my parking space at work because it was so slippery I didn't want to slide into my coworkers cars in the process. I bought the best rated studless tires I could research and yesterday was just beyond their abilities. The car complained to me like mad while driving out of the parking lot about slippery conditions, the ABS fired in and out like crazy and the car was borderline useless.

    With a car without ABS, I'd have had a much easier time

    1. Vic

      > ABS limiting your ability to make controlled actions.

      ABS does no such thing.

      If your wheels are locked, you're sliding. You don't make controlled actions in those circumstances.

      If you manage to unlock the wheels - your ABS will do nothing. It is only operative *whilst you have your wheels locked*.

      > the ABS fired in and out like crazy and the car was borderline useless.

      This implies that you are braking far, far too hard.

      It is better, in very slippery conditions, to use the brakes as little as possible. If your ABS was "fir[ing] in and out like crazy", perhaps you do not have sufficient experience in those conditions. ABS doesn't make grip, it just salvages as much as possible. If you're salvaging all the time, your driving is inappropriate for the conditions.

      > With a car without ABS, I'd have had a much easier time

      No you wouldn't. You'd have slid into something because you were braking far too harshly.

      Vic.

  11. Jim 59
    Alien

    ROTM

    This story doesn't make sense. Your front wheel "spun wildly out of control" but you "never noticed the wheel spinning". The car "completely stopped responding to input" but you then attempted to cross a railway ? In these circumstances, an appropriate response would be to pull over and phone for assistance, not to endanger life by carrying on.

    And if the facts are as you report them, then tell us what car it is so we can avoid this death trap. And so the manufacter can issue an alert/recall. Did you perhaps exxagerate a bit ?

    1. Trevor_Pott Gold badge

      The front wheel certainly could have spun out of control for a brief period while accelerating from a stop at a light. The car didn't provide any feedback to indicate this was happening. I am certain I would not have heard it; the heater was on full, and there were two enormous pimped out rig pig trucks with fart cannons on either side trying to race to the next red light.

      It is a stupidly dangerous, frustrating road filled almost entirely with full-tonne trucks, SUVs and cars on large risers. The civic design is so poor that something like 70’+ people speed dangerously to try to beat the endless series of poorly timed lights, often whipping through reds. There is an LRT going down the middle of the road, and the whole thing is the feeder to the freeway serving a pair of set of huge bedroom communities. Oh, and it was the first 20 minutes of rush hour.

      So no, unless the car provided some form of tactile feedback, or an audible tone in the car, I’d never have known that the wheel had spun.

      As to the “completely stopped responding” bit, that is an interesting one. See, the car was working just fine at 20kph for several blocks (as I *desperately locked for a way to escape the death trap road I was on, which had big cement walls an no turn-out lane.)

      It wasn’t until I complete the left hand turn (incidentally taking me across the tracks) that the thing went dead. But only for an instant…then the speedo freaked out for a second (again) and the car went right back to 20kph.

      There is no exaggeration or hyperbole there. Not even about the terrifying, terrifying road. (I only ever even drive that road anymore because the other links are all under construction.) My issue indeed is emphatically not with the computer itself. I think it did the job it is supposed to do.

      My issue is with the lack of feedback. That computer should have told me that it was overriding my inputs. Loudly. And I take serious issue with and designer or engineer that allowed the creation of such a system without informing the driver that this sort of thing was even possible. (It is not how the system normally behaves.)

      Let’s take ABS as a great example of a well done system. In every car I have ever driven, there is a universal signal (the pedal “pumping”) for informing the driver that the computer was overriding user inputs. This is good. This is proper engineering. It is a universal feedback system and – critically – it informs the driver when it is in use.

      The trac computer in this instance declined to do anything of the sort. Thus my philosophising. Are we – as a society – comfortable with this? Is the burden of knowing when a computer is overriding a human – as opposed to mechanical or other error – on the human? What happened to the principles of good design that did things like provide a feedback mechanism for ABS?

      As to make/model of car, I decline to answer. The last thing the Internet needs is another holy war about car manufacturers.

  12. Big_Boomer Silver badge
    Pirate

    It's happening NOW!

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-16197664

    All your car are belong to me. Ownzed! <LOL>

  13. Old Painless
    Stop

    ..meh..

    ..I drive a chieftain.It has no ABS, and I'm not that bothered if I slide it into things.I think we should all have one, would certainly solve a lot of speeding issues. although garage forecourts would have to be a bit bigger.

  14. Delbert
    FAIL

    You cant fight technology

    I've had the same issues I drive a MAN truck with Euro IV compliant technology. Once the ecu decides there is a fault it disables the engine and may take several reboots of the system to drive away . However if there is a sensor out of range it simple will not start. That can be as simple as the temperature spike when the engine is shut off after a run not really what you can call progress and yes I have been stranded by it thankfully not on train tracks.

  15. pditty
    WTF?

    You can make all the arguments in the world about how electronic nannies (ABS, traction control, stability control etc) aren't necessary and people should drive better...

    And people *should* drive better, but those nannies save lives. Absolutely 100% no doubt about it.

    They also prevent injuries and crashes that would result in higher costs of health care and insurance. So much so that they're being mandated by law in the US.

    What's stupid is trying to drive a car in limp mode, putting yourself and others selfishly in danger because you're too cheap to get a tow truck.

  16. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    My car had actual problems...

    ...with the speedometer and lambda sensors.

    Without the lambda proper working, the engine "freezes" at 1000rpm allowing you to crawl on 1st gear for help. I've read through the owner's manual and it was properly documented there. OK, sorted. I like to call it "carburetor mode" or "throttle input OFF". Yes, it refuses the gas pedal commands. Weird, but ok, the thing entered fail-safe mode, and is kind enough to keep working and not dying on you.

    On another occasion a *really* steep pothole dented one wheel and knocked the speedometer cable loose, and it finally detached or shorted weeks later (yes it was THAT messed up). But the manual won't tell you that without the speedometer the car WON'T BUDGE. No check lights, no nothing, you just turn the key, the starter shakes the whole thing, but the engine won't breathe.

    What kind of car CPU relies better on the speedometer than on the lambda to keep the thing working? The mind boggles.

    PS. My car has no traction control, no ABS, no automatic transmission, just the good'ol clutch, but I faced nearly all the same problems described in the article. Funny isn't it?

    And yes, low traction sucks. On really sloped streets (like mine) going inside a garage (curb) will usually put the car balancing on 3 wheels. God help you if you don't have a limited slip differential. Expect some skidding.

    I heard that some ABS systems will 'disable' themselves below 10mph, because locking brakes in snow or gravel would 'dig' a trench, and cause a pileup of debris in front of the car, helping the brake effort. Don't ask me how it tells the difference between black ice and snow / gravel .

  17. Anonymous Coward
    Holmes

    System reset

    When my turbo was failing, my car would go into limp mode under load which could be a problem on the motorway. However a quick system reset (turn the key off and on again) would reset the computer and it would be fine again.

    Having since spoken to a number of people, this solution usually fixes most one off problems where a car may go into limp mode. Of course if there is a continuous fault you are stuffed.

  18. Jigr69
    Happy

    Modern ABS

    Alot of modern ABS systems actually kick in before the wheel stops rotating (i.e. skidding), as opposed to kicking in when the wheel actually stops rotating. Therefore it is improving the overall stopping distance in a similar manner to a very good driver pumping the brakes (prior to ABS being fitted as standard).

    The whole idea of pumping the brakes/ABS is to maximise the braking efficiency of the car whilst retaining moveability. As has been pointed out, sometimes the stopping distance is greater than the distance you need to stop in (car pulling out of a junction), therefore being able to rapidly slow down and avoid said obstacle avoids additional paperwork.

  19. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Come again...

    What is your point? Your computer breaks down in your car leaving you stranded on train tracks is different from a mechanically controlled car breaking down and leaving you stranded on train tracks? Presumably now that it has a computer in it you accept your demise alongside your slightly more intelligent vehicle, sat in the drivers seat, waiting for the situation to right itself, while the train keeps coming... Rather than either abandoning the damn thing or getting out to give it a push? Computers are not replacement for common sense... Well... They shouldn't be.

    1. Trevor_Pott Gold badge

      Actually, when it lit back up, I had already put her in neutral, undone my seatbelt and had my hand on the door. You have to understand that pushing her across the tracks would have been simple. She's a light car, I can do it from the driver's side doorframe.

      More to the point, the tracks are only 15m-ish worth of space. The other side is a slight downward sloping hill. I knew before I made the turn that I could have easily pushed her out of the way before the next train. Conversely, if I had tried to stop anywhere on that southbound road, I'd have been run over.

      There was little (if any) real possibility of getting hit by the train before I could get the car out of there; it had just passed, another wouldn't be along for 8 minutes. But damned if you don't start freaking out when you realise you are stuck on train tracks.

      All those perfectly logical cold calculations pale to the overwhelming power of adrenaline.

      No, my issue here is that the computer should have let me know that it was taking over. It would have made a difference in how I reacted. Frankly, had I known it was the computer, I’d have turned it off, put it in neutral and pushed as soon as it died, rather than leaving it idle. The computer has control of the brakes. A potentially squirrely tranny doesn’t.

      The only thing that mattered, really, was getting across the tracks to safety. Half a block to home free. And 8 minutes to get there.

  20. Stevie

    Bah!

    There's *always* someone on the train tracks, it's just that your distance from the real business at hand prevents you from seeing it.

    I had to point out to some of our younger SAs who were indulging their imagined superiority at the expense of the applications programmers recently.

    "They ought to fire them all" one said.

    "If they did, why on earth would we need *you*" I asked, smiling?

    I then went on to explain that out business wasn't running computers for their own sake, and that far from being the most important people in the place, they were like janitors: The most important people in the universe when the lavatory is blocked and backing up, paid to prevent that ever happening at all other times. In other words, if they ever had to step into the limelight, they had already failed at their most important function - to stay out of the way so others could do the real work of the place.

    SAs. Gotta love 'em.

  21. Bruce Ordway

    DARPA

    A few years back i read an article about a lecture given by the current head of DARPA.

    I don't remember his name but I do remember...

    He questioned whether "A" level programmers shouldn't be the ones working on the code for your vehicles ABS? I believe he suggested it was being done by "C" programmers in that period. I wonder who is doing it now?

  22. Anonymous Coward
    IT Angle

    Traction Control

    I would have thought the author would have noticed the car wasn't working by it not working, or the lights on the dash and not driven 20 blocks to avoid a tow charge.

    On the subject of Traction control I've a few close calls in a RWD BMW, when the surface is slippery and you are turning onto a main road it will cut power because the wheels are slipping on the untreated minor road. So the gap you had of 10 seconds between cars, the gap ou were going for, is now you crawling out of a side turning at 2mph while the TCS cuts the throttle and applies the brakes.

  23. sonic007

    Good information

    Very scary. I myself at times do turn off my traction control but it is easy to forget.

    Might be a Toyota. They have had lots of recalls. I myself would suspect a transmission problem as well. Must have been very slight wheel spin. I know with my Kia it is hard to notice slight wheel spin. I will keep this in mind if I ever have this problem. I myself as well work in I.T.

    Hopefully this doesnt happen to anyone else.

  24. Mr. Chuck
    FAIL

    Too much apparatus

    Modern cars are getting more and more complicated. It's a rearguard action to save a failing technology--private road transport--that is collapsing under the weight of emissions, congestion and fuel prices. You want cars, you'll have to put up with it. A car is not an appliance however much the makers might pretend otherwise.

    Incidentially, I have a Mk2 Jag and while it has other problems, this sort of rubbish isn't among them. I use it infrequently and for pleasure, and with a few simple modifications it's reliable enough. For commuting, I prefer to travel by motorbike (also no computer) as city traffic here has become pretty much unfeasible. In peak hour you're lucky to do 10 km/h in a car.

    Since I work with computers and programmers, I don't want either involved with my personal transport thank you very much.

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