British armed forces get first new pistol since World War II
The British regular forces are to receive their first new pistol since World War II, as the long-serving Browning 9mm sidearm is replaced by a new weapon from the well-known Austrian firm Glock. Out with the old, in with the new The new pistol is the Glock 17 Gen4, which fires the same NATO standard 9x19mm cartridge as its …
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Re: 9mm?
> Unlike computer games, you don't stay standing up and go 'ouch' if you get hit by 9mm even with body armour.
Um, no, not really. Contrary to what is commonly seen in movies, the impact of a pistol round doesn't really throw people back onto the ground. The force absorbed by the target is identical to the force absorbed by the shooter as recoil, according to this guy named Newton. So if you're not knocked on your ass, the person you're shooting at is unlikely to be, either.
Re: 9mm?
"From the wiki:
The P90 is currently in service with military and police forces in over 40 nations, such as Austria, Brazil, Canada, France, Malaysia, Poland, and the United States. In the United States, the P90 is in use with over 200 law enforcement agencies, including the U.S. Secret Service."
So: NOT the US military then. At all.
Read the distribution numbers.
Suck my Glock..
.. was the sbumper sticker I had on my car in South Africa in 1997. It said "Gun Free S.A. suck my Glock" and was a stab at the anti-gun lobbyists who believed that law abiding, legal gun owners were the cause of violent crime that was rife from 1994 onwards.
I bought my Glock Model 17, Generation 2 in 1994, a fine pistol indeed. Light, easy to maintain and strip, plus it held 17 rounds of Federal Hydrashok 117Gr +P hollow point rounds in the magazine.+ 1 in the "spout" which is always a round nosed full metal jacket in the chamber in case I ever shot myself in error.. as the Glock's safety mechanism is on the trigger
Don't pull the trigger and it won't go off was the brainwashing I had to give myself when I forst took delivery of the Austrian potent polymer pointing device.
It's a good choice for the armed forces, a proven design with a solid track record and the 17 is chambered for NATO's tried and tested 9x19mm ammo choice, 9mm ammo is easy to obtain (legally)
Sure the legendary Browning HP 9mm has had a good run in the British forces, but it's time to move on and I think the MOD made a wise choice with the G17 as a replacement
Useless info:
Strangely enough most believe the Glock 17 got it's model designation from the magazine capacity, i.e. 17
But it was the 17th patent of the company, hence the model number..
Re: Suck my Glock..
> Federal Hydrashok
Why U buy fancy stuff? Standard ball not good enough?
Re: Suck my Glock..
@Destroy All Monsters
> Federal Hydrashok
Why U buy fancy stuff? Standard ball not good enough?
No they are not, at close on 1000FP/s they tend to go straight through the [human] target and don't always immobilise them
Hollow points cause massive tissue damage and mass bleeding, thus almost always rendering your target immobile in an efficient manner.
Now please bear in mind, I have never shot or even pointed at any human being with my weapon, but if I have to, the hollow point will do the job effectively.
I do use RNFMJ for target practise at the range though, consideably cheaper and a little more accurate on the long distance targets.
Re: Suck my Glock..
having been to SA (and loved it) I can understand the OP's wish to be well armed, most of the wildlife and a good number of the locals are pretty deadly (or at least were then). The old Joburg domestic departure lounge was scary enough, driving round some parts had you white knuckled and doing meercat impressions at every intersection. Having said that I would go back in an instant, beautiful country, amazing wildlife and truly awesome people. They also play decent rugby when they aren't tearing northern hemisphere teams apart ;-)
Re: Suck my Glock..
In general - no. Standard ball is only used for practice (coz it's cheaper) and by the military (as per the Geneva convention I believe). JHP is way more effective and less likely to pop out the other side. Personally I ask the local cops what they use - Hornady Critical Duty/Defense seems to be the order of the day in mid Texas. If they are willing to spend the FBI's time and money figuring out the 'best' stopping round then I'll go with that.
Re: Suck my Glock..
Yep, you can only use solid ammo if you are a "combatant" according to the Geneva Convention. As a civilian you can use whatever the hell you like, subject to the law within your own country.
Re: Suck my Glock..
There's an ex SA policeman who drinks round here, says he used to rub ginger on the rounds cos he and his mates believed that you just had to wing someone to give them septicaemia. Oh well. Makes me think of the cover illustrations of the Tom Sharpe novels such as Riotous Assembly, featuring an old lady and a four-barrelled elephant gun.
Re: Suck my Glock..
".....Why U buy fancy stuff? Standard ball not good enough?" If your life depends on it, and Mundo seems to have believed he was in danger in SA, then you will want the "best" bullet hitting the target. After all, even Hydra-Shok is cheap compared to the value you put on your own life.
Re: Suck my Glock..
I owned a Glock 17 a few years ago. The trigger insert does not qualify as a real safety in my book. If you keep a round in the chamber and anything gets inside the trigger guard and pulls back on the trigger, it will fire. The Glock's internal hammer is nice, but I prefer a real safety switch on my pistols.
Re: Suck my Glock..
".....The trigger insert does not qualify as a real safety in my book......" IIRC, it was blamed for the infamous incident when a cop giving a gun safety briefing to school kids managed to shoot himself with an "unloaded" Glock:
http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=2442_rmiidY&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3D2442_rmiidY
@Matt
Whats the old adage about treating every gun like it's loaded? That's one thing I liked about side by sides, you would carry them broken so there were no accidents (plus you could easily tell how dangerous a friends gun was) and you damn well didn't point it at anybody or anything you didn't want dead. From the minute we went near guns we were always told every gun is loaded, even the ones you 'know' aren't.
Re: Suck my Glock..
You owe me two keyboards....
Can the septicaemia-inducing ginger stay on the tip long enough at the speed the bullet is going? I am assuming friction/heat will take it off the bullet unless the person is shot under 50 feet.
Would be interesting to see the coroner reports collations if garlic-induced septicaemia started popping up around the world.
(On a humorous side: Makes me wonder whether Ginger Team had a local set of human mutants or vampire equivalents, but required ginger vice garlic. )
Re: @Matt
You mean like thames valley firearms officer shooting civilian colleague in a class room with a weapon he didn't think was loaded.
Proving that the most dangerous component of any weapon system,
.... the nut behind the trigger.
Re: despairing citizen Re: @Matt
".....Proving that the most dangerous component of any weapon system,.... the nut behind the trigger." More accurately, the HUMAN BEING behind the trigger. Making mistakes is human, which is why we have gun use procedures that both coppers should have been following but which they did not. Not following a procedure does not make you a "nut", it may mean you are incompetent but not necessarily a "nut". Adam Lanza was a "nut", the problem is we need to treat the Adam Lanza's of the World and either keep them away from guns and/or away from the public, without reducing the rights of those that have no "nuttiness".
We also need to face up to one other and very simple bit of empirical evidence - when the "nuts" do get behind the trigger, there are two common points in their target selection - it's not just the areas which offer the biggest pain to the society the "nuts" want to strike out at, it's also areas which cannot defend themselves. When was the last time a "nut" went on a rampage at a shooting range, an NRA meeting, or an armed police presence?
Re: despairing citizen @Matt
Which part of check the F***ing weapon is empty prior to entering a building, is difficult, hard, or memory oversight, if you are trained firearms user.
Never did it once in a couple of decades of handling and instructing on a range of firearms.
Anybody who does not follow standard safe handling procedure, has a demonstrable lack of regard for human life, and hence by definition is a nut.
It might be understandable as a mistake if the operator had only 2 hours sleep in the last 36 hours, and that was huddled up in the lee of a bush with the rain going sideways with the high winds. Walking into a prepped instructional session with a loaded weapon.... well just beggers belief if not for the evidence of the crippled victim whoose only mistake was to turn up to work.
Love some of the posts on this topic.
"Handguns-woooo, I'm getting a warm tingly feeling just saying the ******* word!"
Just out of curiosity (I prefer a bow) I checked to see if I could buy one. Apparently (and worryingly?) I can, they also make a 50cal version for 13k. Poor Bambi, there wouldn't be enough left for a sunday roast.
@ Pampant Spaniel
.50 cal is the diameter of the bullet.
The big gun aka Ma Duce or M2 machine gun shoots a .50 BMG. You can't put that in to a handgun.
But there is a .50 AE round. As well as a .50 caliber muzzle loader.
The 50 AE is a big round. But so too are the revolver rounds like the .480.
If you were to use the .50 AE for hunting, you would need to be close and its not going to do the damage you seem to expect because you are thinking of the BMG.
Stupid guns
"The big gun aka Ma Duce or M2 machine gun shoots a .50 BMG. You can't put that in to a handgun."
Bets? People do the stupidest things with firearms. There's a Russian company who make revolvers chambered for .600 Nitro Express. They kick a bit.
http://www.gunspictures.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/boom_pfeiferzeliska3_gunspictures_thumb.jpg
Long time back I got to fire someone's Swing pistol chambered in 7.62mm. That kicked a bit too.
@ Ian
I was referring to this :)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accuracy_International_AW50
It's $13000 there's a couple of dealers have them here. Given the comments about taking out radar installations & lightly armored vehicles I assumed it would pack enough punch to do some serious damage to bambi. To be fair i am guessing as this isn't anywhere close to what I would use for hunting.
Re: @ Pampant Spaniel
"The big gun aka Ma Duce or M2 machine gun shoots a .50 BMG. You can't put that in to a handgun."
You do realise that now somebody in Huntsville has probably taken that statement as an engineering challenge!
Re: Suck my Glock..
Ball generally makes a hole, hollow point spends its kinetic energy in your body and forces you to stop what you're doing.
Both however, when injected at speed will make you feel somewhat unwell.
Re: Suck my Glock..
"Ball generally makes a hole, hollow point spends its kinetic energy in your body and forces you to stop what you're doing."
and hollow points can potentially get you put in front of a firing squad (dependant on who gets to you first), for breaking international treaties on what military forces are allowed to use as small arms amuniton. (along with other explosive ammo)
yes folks the police can use stuff that the military has been banned from using for the last century, because it was deemed in-human.
...don't quite understand the logic, but nobody said the law has to be logical
Don't Understand.
"Bootnotes
*The Glock has triple safety mechanisms which mean that its firing pin will not move forward unless the trigger is back, the trigger cannot be moved back unless a finger is pressing on its front and the weapon will not fire if dropped. The weapon's hammer is internal, and as such cannot snag on clothing or be bumped inadvertently into a different position.
By contrast the Browning had only a manual safety catch for its hammer only, and the external hammer could fairly easily be inadvertently brushed or knocked back to full cock. This meant that it was in general forbidden to carry it with a round in the chamber, as the risk of an accidental discharge would be unacceptably high (although certain very highly trained special operations units did carry the Browning with a round up the spout as routine, until that community moved to Sig Sauer pistols in the early 1990s). Unfortunately this meant that in general it would take quite a long time to get off a shot, as the user would have to work the slide to chamber a round after drawing the weapon.
The Browning did have a design feature in which its hammer could be put at half-cock (aka "half bent"). Provided the mechanism was working correctly, even if the trigger was pulled from this position the weapon would not fire: and if the hammer was joggled it could not travel forward beyond half-cock, preventing a chambered round being fired. If a round was chambered, the user would need only to thumb the hammer all the way back to full cock in order to shoot.
However there were several ways this could go wrong, and the standard British manual for Browning use specifically forbade the use of the "half bent" position as a safety device."
It seems to me that a side arm/pistol is a weapon of last resort.
When you draw it there should be no 'safeties'.
Re: Don't Understand.
True, but whilst you are bouncing around in a vehicle with it pointing towards your leg \ your fellow soldier, a safety might be appreciated.
Re: Don't Understand.
"It seems to me that a side arm/pistol is a weapon of last resort."
Correct.
"When you draw it there should be no 'safeties'."
There should be no *manual* safety features that you have to physically waste time engaging. There should most *certainly* be enough safety features to enable carrying a round in the chamber without risk of discharge.
All of the Glock's safety features are passive. ie: You don't need to physically do anything or move any manual safety catch: As long as you are intending to fire the weapon and have a finger on the trigger, it will discharge when you pull the trigger. That's frankly the ideal situation.
Re: Don't Understand.
I read somewhere that the pistol is only really there to help get you back to your rifle which you should never have dropped in the first place.
Re: Don't Understand.
"I read somewhere that the pistol is only really there to help get you back to your rifle which you should never have dropped in the first place."
You should have never had it disconnected from you unless you were sleeping!
The sling system is one of the best things about it. It was designed so that there's pretty much no excuse for putting the rifle down.
Re: Don't Understand.
"True, but whilst you are bouncing around in a vehicle with it pointing towards your leg \ your fellow soldier, a safety might be appreciated."
Ah, the so-called 4ton safety test. load weapon, apply safety, throw the weapon into the back of a truck, does it fire?
Glock, probably not
Any SA80, probably yes, as some prat put a trigger interupt "safety" on it, hence any jolt that trips the sear lets the weapon fire. (most rifle safeties block the pin in some way shape or form)
This is why SA80 family weapons have high trigger pull weights, as it reduces the number of people shot with their own weapon, or that of their buddy sat next to them, when the when is jolted.
PS
if you pull the trigger real hard (like a physically fit bloke with lots of adrenilin going through your system), you can make it fire with the cross bolt safety on, not only does it fire, the bent safety then hold the trigger in the "pulled" position, particularly impressive if you have it set to auto, with another 27 rounds in the mag.
Super choice! It's safe, reliable, easy to service, and accurate. That's why I carry one every day! Though I favor the Glock 36. It's slim, light easy to conceal and it's a .45 .
I always thought it was a shame we moved away from .45 though it makes sense in maximum ammo compatibility wit our allies.
Love it. Your mates think your strange for wearing a wristwatch, but carrying a gun causes no comment.
Just curious but what is the attraction to concealing a weapon? Why not just carry it openly holstered? I'm not saying its wrong but I grew up in the countryside where people wandered around with their side by sides broken over their arm.
sorry, I guess attraction was the wrong word, rationale?
"I always thought it was a shame we moved away from .45 though it makes sense in maximum ammo compatibility wit our allies."
Probably because unless you're in the movies both it and it's silly-sister the .50 are stupid rounds to be firing from a sidearm. Forget semi auto they're worthless in a firefight with rounds that big, the second one is going nowhere near the first. Also the compatibility thing..
"....what is the attraction to concealing a weapon?....." Well, it's not as much the concealing it as the carrying it somewhere on your person in the first place. Not many people actually want to walk around with a holster strapped to their leg, most people want a weapon they can drop into a coat pocket or - in the case of women - into a handbag. Of course, doing so automatically makes it "concealed" by definition even if you didn't have a nefarious reason for doing so. It's one of those neat legal tricks the anti-gun lobby came up with to discourage ordinary citizens from protecting themselves.
Ah right thanks. Personally I assume everyone on the mainland is carrying. Makes life easier. I haven't used pistols much, never tended to have a need, but they were usually wedged in a belt (unloaded). We have no concealed carry here (Hawai'i) which seems to work quite well but it does upset a lot of folks moving here who like to carry. Personally I don't care if its concealed or not, thats not really the point, it should be just whether or not you can carry (having lived in both carry and non carry places I can see the benefits of each). If it's concealed or not doesn't really make much of a difference to me.
That's because I taught most of them gun safety and they trust me to be responsible adult with it.
"Not many people actually want to walk around with a holster strapped to their leg, most people want a weapon they can drop into a coat pocket"
Which is kinda strange to my mind.
Carrying an open firearm as a deterrent makes some kind of sense.
Carrying a concealed firearm so that you are still a target for crime but if you are then it is immediately escalated into a lethal confrontation makes very little sense.
Re: Psyx
".....Which is kinda strange to my mind....." Well, for a start, have you ever considered the endless and painful queries from the fairer sex - "Dear, does this holster make me look fat?"
Then again, it could be a boon to the economy as many women would insist on a holster to match each outfit, just like their handbags and shoes, and they'd have their "going away" pistol, which would have to be different from their "shopping" pistol, and their "winter" pistol would have to have a faux-fur warmer.....
Re: Psyx
"Then again, it could be a boon to the economy as many women would insist on a holster to match each outfit, just like their handbags and shoes, and they'd have their "going away" pistol, which would have to be different from their "shopping" pistol, and their "winter" pistol would have to have a faux-fur warmer....."
I think that many gun owners pretty much do that in order to justify owning thirty different firearms anyway. I know that a lot of pistol shooters I knew seemed to need a firearm for every conceivable event or occasion.
"Now this is for home defence when it's raining outside but not much, and if I have guests over. But not if it's a Tuesday. I *had* to buy this one for Tuesdays..."
It was the male version of shoe-buying, I swear.
About time too!
However, I actually much preferred using a 686 Smith & Wesson revolver, chambered .357 magnum. But firing a .38 special with dosnt have as much clang as the magnum round, far more accurate than any automatic pistol I tried.
The Glock will be a good replacement for the Browning & hopefully is able to withstand the odd rogue round if we still buy our ammo from Pakistan - a few years ago they had QC issues & could shatter the breech of the Browning.
As for the Desert Eagle brigade, that is like a Lamborghini Countach, best for hanging a picture of it on a 12 year olds bedroom wall. I would choose that last, at least you might frighten them off with the bang, as it does that very well!
shooting Glock 17 from a UK newbie.
Was in Florida for 2 weeks in November there, so wandered into gun shop/range and borrowed a glock for some shooting practice. First time I've ever shot a handgun. Quality america safety briefing : "here's a pair of ear protectors and shades. how many boxes of ammo do you want?".
luckily I'd watched enough TV to work it all out.
really nice gun - amazed me how light it was - feels like a toy... till you start blasting things with 9mm bullets :-)
I had a go of a 45 too. Was amazed how much bigger the bullets were. And the gun felt more unwieldy. Though you could feel the extra kick.
Still amazes me you can wander in off the street in the USA, not knowing one end of a gun from the other and 5 mins later be shooting up a range with a 9mm handgun... whereas over here even an SAS bloke gets locked up for years for having one in his house....
stu
Re: shooting Glock 17 from a UK newbie.
Any shop up here that did that would be closed so quickly that it would just be a blur.
On the other hand did you ASK for instruction? Just because they were stupid was no reason for you to follow suit, Florida is a lunatic asylum.
Re: shooting Glock 17 from a UK newbie.
"Florida is a lunatic asylum."
No, we're not. Not when compared with Texas, anyway. And Alaska.
Hmmm. On further consideration, perhaps it's time to move to somewhere civilized, like, oh, West Virginia.
Re: shooting Glock 17 from a UK newbie.
I live in Minnesota. We have guns, we even have concealed carry, but we also have training requirements and real background checks and don't go handing pistols out like party favors.
Any shop that would hand a pistol and ammo to someone who never shot before is criminally negligent at best, and flatly stupid at worst.
I've taught gun safety and how to shoot. The dangerous and silly things an untrained person will do with a handgun will turn your hair gray.
Carry law
MN has "carry" laws. MN Statute 624 does not address, permit, require, of forbid "concealed" carry.
Sorry, anal and pedantic, but it's a pet peeve of mine.
Thank you for your work in gun safety training, by the way.
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