Review: Raspberry Pi
No review is ever written in isolation, absent from context. Usually, you can guess the reviewer's bias within a few paragraphs, and compensate accordingly. He hates LCD display quality, she dislikes proprietary software, they yearn for the days of full bandwidth vinyl. You get the idea. Raspberry Pi ARM PC Raspberry Pi Alpha …
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Re: Waiting for Accelerated Xorg drivers @AC
Well, since you appear to know something about it, perhaps you would like to offer some assistance and advice. It is a community effort after all.
Or are you the sort of person who just sits on the sidelines and laughs at people efforts and claims to be able to do it so much better? A fan of BGT perhaps?
Cognitive dissonance
There seem to be two recurring message from RPF representatives here
1. Everything is in hand. It's all being worked on. Don't bother your pretty little heads about it.
and
2. Everything needs done. It's a community effort. Don't expect us to do everything.
Re: Cognitive dissonance @Ian Johnston
Or perhaps, just perhaps it's a combination of the two? Like, the stuff that needs to be done by the Foundation is being done by them, whilst the stuff that can be done by the community is being done by them?
Just fyi, there are, I think, 8 official members of the Foundation. None are paid. It's an entirely volunteer effort. Half of those are not technical. 8 people means it's an absolute necessity to get external support, and so far, the response has been pretty good.
It'll find a niche, just not getting the kids to program
If kids until now haven't learned to program with all the free dev tools available on any PC, this won't do it either. And if you're scared of damaging something, reach into the PC and yank the hard disk connector, and boot into a Linux distro with a USB stick.
Its appeal is that it's a cheap-as-chips toy to play with hardware experiments, and for people who think it's a great media player despite purpose built alternatives on Amazon for the same money (or even less). OK. so this has network connectivity too, whereas the Amazon ones are for standalone memory sticks only.
And, yes, it may just find its way into kids bedrooms if their parents genuinely can't afford a cheap lappy, or don't trust their young kids with anything more valuable than something at this 'disposable' price point.
But don't kid yourselves about the youngsters learning to program with this - unless there's very well written set of documentation, structured training program, the will to use it (and not play around instead with all the distractions we never had in the 80s), and a good large and friendly support community forum.
The geeky kids (not an insult, I consider myself a geek) will find their way into programming on their own just like we always have.
Connections are key
What we need are some switches for the GPIO connections which can do things in the real world and some python/ruby modules to control it.
The joy of something like this is that it can provide a comms stack which is easy to get into. So you could get it to be a media extender just for audio if you wanted. That would be great if you can't get a bluetooth connection from your server to your stereo. Your phone could do the job, but that tends to wonder off at inconvenient times. A cheap permanent fixture would be better. It won't turn non-geeks to geeks, but it might turn those heading down the dark path of VBA back towards the light side and lead to lots of cool gadgets. A cheap baby monitor perhaps, which could be re-purposed later. Say hello to Mr Radio Controlled Battleship! Or a cheap way to feed the cat when you're away which doesn't involve a cisco switch.
Hopefully it will also prod the more commercial gadget makers into more innovation to compete.
Ask the Right Question
Unless we ask the right question: Why don't kids learn to program these days? We won't be able to draw the right conclusions.
Is it because computers aren't cheap enough to risk programming? (though in fact netbooks are effectively 3x cheaper than ZX Spectrums were in our day and modern computers provide far more protected programming environments than in the 80s).
Or is because they're 10,000 times more complex today? Based on my experience of programming machines from the 80s to today, I'd have to conclude the latter. And once you do, you have to conclude that the Raspberry PI (nice though it is), can't be any better for learning to program than anything we currently have.
In which case, what we really need is computers simple enough to understand; machines like FIGnition ( www.fignition.co.uk). It's not about going back to the past any more than teaching children to read using Phonics is regressive compared with learning to read using War And Peace or Harry Potter.
-cheers from julz
Re: Ask the Right Question
> Or is because they're 10,000 times more complex today?
I agree with that, but I would say that is the reason the Pi is suitable, the opposite of your conclusion.
The Pi is an ARM based device, (ignoring the GPU, which is fair enough given the lack of documentation :) ) it is not ridiculously more complex than a 1989 BBC A3000. (Just much faster and with much more RAM).
If you compare a 286 running DOS (and perhaps GEM) from a similar era to a current windows 7 PC, then your comparison is good.
I see no reason the Pi can't easily provide as good an environment as any of the BBC micro range.
Re: Ask the Right Question
Hi Jess,
Thanks for your reply.
> > The Pi is an ARM based device, (ignoring the GPU, which is fair enough given the lack of
> > documentation :) ) it is not ridiculously more complex than a 1989 BBC A3000
It's true that ARM assembler on a R-PI isn't that different from ARM assembler on an A3000, but the problem is with the overall complexity of systems and its the overall complexity that impacts on both how programming is learned and how developers develop for the systems. So, the 10,000 figure isn't hyperbole, but the literal growth in complexity between the early 80s and now (e.g. 256Mb / 32Kb = 8192; 200million lines of code of Linux / 10K lines in the BBC's firmware => 20000 etc ) Let's start from the bottom to the top.
At the bottom we have the CPU. Modern CPUs are orders of magnitude complex than in the 80s and R-PI's CPU is actually a microcontroller in itself. So, just considering the effect of memory management and cache means that in a modern system kids can't just poke around the computer, you have to use APIs just to be able to get access to memory (if it's allowed) and reading and writing to it involves more complex protocols (i.e. because of cache coherency, write-back policies).
Booting a modern CPU is more complex than an early 80s one: they don't just start running from address 0; you find you have to consider the boot-up reason, switch into the appropriate CPU mode; you find you have to explicitly enable RAM (enable chip selects and memory areas, take it out of self-refresh perhaps, allocate memory regions for the MMU). Thus rewriting say the ROM to support a fundamentally different OS to Linux is orders of magnitude more complex than for an early 80s computer.
Moving to the on-chip peripherals. The level of integration means that the R-PI's chipset is orders of magnitude harder to deal with than, say, an Atmel AVR, which in turn is several times more complex than the peripherals on early 80s computers. They are 1000s of pages long just for the main CPU itself (including peripherals) - so much more complex that the designers of the R-PI must only know a fraction of the contents. I used to be an Symbian OS baseporter, I've seen these things, no-one knows these chips to the degree hundreds of thousands of people understand the innards of a BBC or ZX Spectrum. By comparison I've read the docs for the chipset of the Arm250 (=> A3020), and although more complex than an early 80s micro, are pretty much fully graspable with some effort IMO.
All this has a knock-on effect further up the chain. Supporting a chipset with a billion transistors requires complex APIs and frameworks to be defined which itself impacts on the complexity and design of the Operating System itself. But of course, for a large system we want to run everything it theoretically can run, so the complexity is compounded by multiple frameworks, libraries, tools, environments, drivers, front-ends and at this stage what happens is that because the developers who contribute to these systems only understand a tiny fraction of the systems (and can't afford to spend the time to learn the rest) there's continual re-invention and duplication. Then the people who bundle the OS distribution similarly can't spend the time to work out what's truly needed they have to play safe and include the lot.
Finally, on top of all this we want kids to learn to program again. However, the development environments we've constructed to manage our 10,000x more complex systems are themselves formidable beasts compared with the 10 PRINT "I AM FAB!" environments on early 80s computers. Ironically, these environments were better than, say Python's interactive mode (so much for 30 years of progress). So we're drawn to recreating noddy programming environments that don't *really* teach programming as well as, say, a 1K ZX81 can (that is, I strongly suspect one can learn more about programming from a 1K ZX81 than by downloading and exploring for example, Scratch). It's like trying to teach kids to read and write using War And Peace and then deciding we'll just start with the easy words in it: and, of, the, it etc.
It's this baggage at all levels that makes it hard for an R-PI to provide an educational programming environment as effective as an original BBC Micro or ZX Spectrum; although of course you can run an emulator for these machines on it (which in a sense is to validate the earlier machine); yet even that wouldn't be terribly good, kids know the emulated machine is a fake, a form of magic and the deception would impact their learning.
All this is to say, the complexity has an impact in every way when it comes to development. Which brings me back to the original point: if it's true that kids don't program because today's computers are 10,000 times more complex than their forebears then we really need to give them simple computers, not small, cheap, complex ones. The difficult thing is accepting it, because powerful systems are so desirable we kid outselves into thinking they're better in every way. To finish with, a quote from Richard Altwasser (BBC News 17776666):
"What is important is not the technical speed of the device but the speed with which a user can get their computer out of a box and type in their first program." At this level, a BBC micro, ZX Spectrum and FIGnition succeed where R-PI would struggle.
-cheers from julz
Re: Ask the Right Question
But this is mainly down to the environment.
I see your argument as valid for Pi with Linux, but most of it wouldn't apply to the Pi if it were running RISC OS, with BBC BASIC on hand, as the A3000 did.
All the additional kit would be ignored, and you'd end up with a system that is very similar.
Needs a purpose
Like many comments before me, I don't see this replacing the systems already in schools as it doesn't offer anything that they don't already, at least not when your view is tilted towards programming.
I've received my invite from RS to purchase one; I really WANT to need this, but I'm struggling to find an excuse. Anything I may want to do on it (program, view videos, whatever) is already well served by my existing PC, my existing media players, etc.
Re: Needs a purpose
How about you'll be hip and cool amongst your fellow sheep.
Post it Facebook or Twitter and show how much more clued-in you are for having it first!
Re: Needs a purpose
Robots! Robots! Paint-ball turret guns! And Robots! And automatic cat feeders- with range of the turret guns!
That would have used in Design and Technology classes (or whatever they are called these days). I can also imagine the device also used in Maths and Physics classes.
Re: Needs a purpose
Plug in a couple of USB harddrives and set up a cheapo NAS alternative for your household? Probably what I'll end up doing with mine, once I've built a box for it out lof lego of course.
The important question which nobody has asked yet
Can it play "Chocks Away"?
Re: The important question which nobody has asked yet
When RISC OS is running on it, there are two chances. ArcEm which would emulate an old Archimedes (Also could be done on Linux.) or a port/patch to run on the newer processor.
Some old Archimedes games have been ported to run on newer ARM processors
Cat fight
Why has a review of an interesting little computer generated such a storm of ill-tempered comments? Calm down, ladies.
On a different subject £29, though cheap, seems unreasonable. I'm used to the "pounds for dollars" pricing strategy (though not reconciled to it). But £29 for $25 is taking the piss. Can I sell my dollars to the Raspberry people? At £1.16 each I can supply quite a lot.
Re: Cat fight
Surely the price is $35 for a Model B, $25 for a Model A. It's the Model B which is selling in the UK for £29, which includes (I think) VAT and delivery.
After reading some of the comments...
I'm now SURE why we need the Raspberry-Pi...
Simple...
Bloat!
People are moaning and complaining about how the device is "limited" and "can't run things like X11 properly"
Guess what that's a GOOD THING!!!
What would these people have been like 20 years ago...
"I've got a great Space Sim fighting game.. but i can't fit all the names i need for all the planets in the 86 bytes of room left... Ah well sod it! i'll make another frogger clone..."
The limited resources actually is a GOOD Thing it makes coders think about how their programs work. forces them to be creative, the programs are smaller and quicker. The end result you have programmers who actually know how to program.
Just to pick a nit on a totally unrelated detail...
It's not Summer yet.
Nope, not for another month. That's why the weather's so dreary there, right now.
Some really ANGRY! people on this forum..
Chill out guys - some people like to hack about on stuff, others dont. Thats the point of the Pi.
Its not a finished product, its somethign to get your brain ticking..
Having a dedicated devide for learning to code will maybe stop people checking FaceBook/Twitter etc every 5mins and allow them to get on with writing some cool code.
For me, whats missing for shools, is the flashing lights, bottons, buzzers etc. no doubt these will all come with time, and i think thats when we'll start to capture the kid's imaginations and make them want to code....
Too many distractions to really learn.
As per the review. How much of the review actually concentrated on what the Pi is really about?
When is someone going to issue out a pure BASIC or other language app that literally just boots into the command prompt. Nothing but a ring-bound paper manual and a blinking cursor.
That's why so many took to programming on the old 8bit machines because you switched it on and there was nothing there to do other than start coding on it.
How many of the 8bit guys would have got into coding if they could have just plugged in their Spectrum/BBC B and watched porn or played Quake on it all day?
Re: Too many distractions to really learn.
Completely agree.
But how compelling would such a app/device be these days?
Re: Too many distractions to really learn.
I know. Not very I guess. Spoilt for choice nowadays really.
Back in the early 80's the mystery of what computers could do was bolstered by our wondering imagination. I used to watch War Games as a kid and thought how exciting hooking up to other computers could be (Dad's telephone bill permitting). That's all gone now.
I bet 90% of these devices will be thrown in a drawer by the end of the summer. A bit of willy waving from the guy in the office that has to have all the new trendy gadgets (you know the one) and then you'll never hear about it again.
Nothing but hype
When I see my cousin who works in recruitment say on Facebook that he wants a Raspberry Pi then I know that the bandwagon has truly pulled into town.
Most Pi fanbois I've met fall into one of two camps: "small. I want one. What's Linux?" and "I learnt to code in the 80s, so should everyone else".
The only innovative thing they've done is recognised a problem in ICT teaching and then come up with just another ARM board that's cheaper than the competition. Has anyone actually shown it to a child? Chances are they won't give a f*ck for it.
I know very little about ICT education but I'm pretty sure it's not a lack of equipment that is stunting our future ability to compete on the global IT market. How will a smallish PC help this? Once fully connected up (after DDing an SD image), all you're left with is a Bash shell? Whoopy do.
So is it that kids need something "unbrickable"? There are already many good online programming tools. Then when they out grown them, use VMWare Player to run Linux or Windows hosts, setup with Eclipse + PyDev. If they break it, get a new image.
Because it's cheap? You'll need a proper PC anyway, at least just to download and write images.
Because kids wants ownership? Then code for Android. What could be better than writing software that you upload to your phone, carry it around with you and actually show people it on the move?
Because they need to know the basics? Arduino is very mature, well documented and cheap. The old traffic light exercise with LEDs and push switches can easily be coded in less than 100 lines of straight forward code.
I can only hope that the bandwagon disappears soon before the Pi fanbois pressure schools into buying another piece of unwanted and dated IT equipment.
Re: Nothing but hype
You might have a point about your cousin, but you can blame the BBC coverage for that one.
I think the point isn't lack of equipment in ICT, it's the freedom to do what the hell you want with it . This isn't just being able to solder stuff onto the pins, it's the ability to install software and hack about, which isn't on option for most home computers or any school computers.
While the Arduino is fun it's always going to be hardware oriented - great if you want to blink lights, but want to make a game of pacman starring your friends as the ghosts and you need something like this.
Not every kid is going to be enthused, but then I didn't give a shit about sewing classes either. Whatever. All I know is my career is a direct consequence of my dad buying a rubbish computer with no software other than a decent BASIC interpreter. I can't see why todays 12 year old is so jaded that they wont get the same enjoyment from it that I did.
Re: Nothing but hype
I don't see the point, or actually I do see some point but not nearly enough to justify the hype.
Basically you are buying a set top media player box without the box or power supply.
The stupid name probably has as much to do with it as anything. If Broadcom had offered exactly the same thing for $25 called a BCM2835 evaluation board no one would have heard of it.
Re: Nothing but hype @OP
Yes, the Pi has been taken in to schools and demo'd. The children were surprisingly interested.
Code for Android? Why? Is that really the best way to learn how to code?
And aren't most manuals horrid?
I'm reminded of the manuals of, say, 15 years ago, compared to the flimsy pamphlets of today. I have just had the fun of trying to figure out the tablet computer I bought--it looks like being a decent media player at least--and so much is taken for granted. I have often had to find my own way with computers, rather than taking the Office 2010 route to learning, and I don't find Linux, Windows, or MacOS, to be barriers, but that knowledge, and the quantity of helpful information on the Web, suddenly seems irrelevant for a tablet.
I rather think the teachers will be as lost as I was, and I wonder if their careers have prepared them for the very different world that the Raspberry Pi opens up. Programming? But doesn't that mean you have to teach the kids to think?
Good manuals are necessary, but they aren't sufficient. That explosion of 30 years ago came about because of people outside the schools, and that multitude of magazines. Yes, the schools were involved, but they were not the sole source of knowledge.
And, looked at in that light, Linux may be the only choice. Look at the magazines: where else can you go to find people having fun with the nitty-gritty oif programming?
Breakable.. Not Un-Brickable
I think the key point with this thing is the fact that it is perfectly breakable. Then fixable...
Yes schools have lots of computers in them, old and new, used and un-used. But typically they are locked down. No admin rights, no nothing, because the kids will break them and the teachers dont have time to fix them.
Where as this thing can be used to do all the 'other stuff' thats not just about programming.
System administration
Roles/Privileges.
Security
Antivirus
Encryption
Malware
Networking
All the things even us geeky types would rather have an isolated machine to try it out on.
"rumours about Oracle porting a JAVA VM persist"
Rumours may persist, but no-one familiar with Oracle's current efforts is going to hold their breath waiting for a JVM that fits in 256MB.
Don't see the point..
Every school has PCs; install python on them. Money saved....
Just because WE learned to program on a rubbish PC, doesn't mean that having a rubbish PC is a pre-requisite to learning to code...
Re: Don't see the point..
I think our IT tech would've had a heart attack if you'd asked him to install and support Python across the hundred-and-however many PCs were at our comp. Even if you'd somehow cajoled the LEA into doing it, you still wouldn't get the unbrickability factor, or the gpio factor, or the "this is cheaper than your IT textbook - take it home and play with it!" factor.
Re: Don't see the point..
This is the real problem with ICT in schools - people like this AC. Supporting Python on Windows is no different than supporting python on the Pi.
This makes me think that the educationalists going ape-shit over the Pi probably think that Pi devices will not require maintenance, support, software upgrades etc.
There is nothing you can do on a Pi that you cannot do on any vintage of a RM PC, teachers and technicians simply haven't wanted to do it. I don't understand why having special devices will get around this.
Re: Don't see the point..
A machine that can be fixed or repurposed simply by swapping out the SD card is no comparison to a desktop bought for other purposes with python stuck on top. The Pi is as easy to maintain as easy gets; it's stateless. Plus, again, "a desktop with pyfon stuck on top innit" is nowhere near comparable to the capabilities of the Pi. You might be able to do some programming on your run of the mill desktop, but there's nothing you can't do on a Pi, even when working within the restrictive rules of an LEA's IT department.
Won't somebody think of the mechanicals?
I cant see any mounting holes; and with connectors round all four sides it's not going to be easy to box-up one of these.
Re: Won't somebody think of the mechanicals?
>it's not going to be easy to box-up one of these.
Making a box for the Pi seems seems to be the perfect class Design and Technology project for pupils of a certain age... whether it be made from wood, acrylic, or metal. Or maybe showing pupils how the school's new 3D printer works (STLs and 3D modelling). Or how use Web-manufacturing (upload DWGs to a site like Ponoko and get some laser cut parts back in the post.
What a bunch of whining b@st@rds! Some posters here need to chill out some getting so sweaty over a £30 device.
Have some faith that this is going to be something special, no-one seems to have mentioned developing nations like Africa where a very cheap Linux system would go down very well.
And have any of you read the stories on the official RasPi site? Perhaps this post might change our mind about the Pis educational value, and kids today>
http://www.raspberrypi.org/archives/1185
I guess we'll see....
...in ten years time if the UK is producing the best software or if Nigeria has swindled all our money through cunning use of small cheap computer tech.
Africa doesn't need cheap Linux media player circuit boards
They already get our old PCs
Re: Africa doesn't need cheap Linux media player circuit boards
They do, but computers that use a tenth of the power of x86 PCs can only be a good thing.
Where's the accelerated codecs?
I thought I'd already posted this but it seems to have disappeared.
The RPi could be a great little networked media client, but is hampered by no accelerated MPEG2 (as used by physical DVDs and ISOs, and most DVB around the world) and MPEG4 (your old Xvid/Dixv media files), thereby making it useless to anyone who doesn't only care about H.264 and isn't bothered by not being able to view live DVB TV.
That eliminates a lot of media related applications.
The Foundation needs to negotiate an (extra cost) option for these codecs, and make them available. Otherwise you're better off spending more and getting a board which can actually do the most common media types that media players need to do, and not just H.264.
It's extremely disappointing and frustrating that the hardware can do the job, but the drivers are not provided (even as an additional cost option).
Re: Where's the accelerated codecs?
>Where's the accelerated codecs?
The extra cost would bring no benefit to the key target market. They could, I guess, follow the Archos model (sell you the device, then charge you to unlock the extra codecs), possibly maybe.
Re: Where's the accelerated codecs?
That's exactly what I was suggesting!
Re: Where's the accelerated codecs?
Not everyone wants to watch "media" all the time!!
The idea of the RasPi is not to sit on your arse watching TV, but to get kids using their brains learning to code.. with this in mind - why does it matter what video codec its ships with??
if you want to watch media, just go buy a media streamer from eBay for probably less money.. the Pi is not for TV addicts! </rant>
Re: Where's the accelerated codecs?
With all due respect, the point is flying over your head.
Firstly, as the Foundation has said itself, RPi is initially targeted at the developer community. Schools follow later. Hence the distribution channels, the availability of sources and the early port of XBMC to it.
If RPi wasn't intended to support media playback (amongst other possibilities), they wouldn't have chosen an SOC with multi-format hardware accelerated video decoding, and provided drivers supporting the H.264 part of that.
The point, then, is simply that they could (should!) have also shipped it with drivers similarly supporting the GPUs inherent ability to hardware decode MPEG2, MPEG4 and possibly WEBM too, perhaps at extra cost or via some sort of add-on or feature unlocking pack.
Not doing so renders the hardware crippled in one important application area, that of media playback. Which is an obvious one, as noted by most every professional review, and obviously by the XBMC community (hence XBMC for RPi).
There hasn't been a single adult, intelligent or meaningful response to this observation.
Computers that run off solar power or batteries in areas with unstable power? My Pi runs of a battery trickle charged by solar in my shed and it works great. At the very least having a Pi means more computers can be run simultaneously due to much reduced power requirements.
And to the other poster (the coward no less) stop calling it a Linux media player, they are computers. Why not go back to licking your own balls under your bloody bridge you troll?
I can see here why Britain is in such a rut with all these people who put down anything that is unusual or might be successful. Even getting to this point here should be applauded.
I'm not a teacher, so am not qualified to predict whether the RPi will take off in the education arena as the Foundation hopes. All I know, is that so far - despite various niggles - I'm pretty impressed by this little machine, and to have a pretty functional Linux device for £30 is something I could only have dreamed of even a year or two ago.
Yes, the Pi is very choosy on the power front (I found the Nokia AC-10X seems to supply enough juice to keep it happy), but it runs Arch Linux ARM quite snappily (esp. at the console), and I've found it interacts with a network with no problems I can notice. I can SSH into the Pi as if it were any other Linux box; I've transplanted many of my Arch/x86-running netbook's settings (.conkyrc, .screenrc, etc.) to the Pi; and best of all, the Pi can auto-mount the NFS shares on our Synology NAS box, so it has 2TB of storage to play with (at home, at least).
Geeky? Yes, so sue me - I'm already having fun with the Pi, and I haven't even done very much useful with it yet (though I'll get there). Are there more capable competitors? I don't doubt it - if the RasPi and its fellows help convince computer-manufacturers that ARM machines are coming of age, I say bring them all on.
Will the Pi get British schoolkids coding again? Who knows, but as far as I'm concerned: I'm just glad that someone is giving it a go...
And to the other poster (the coward no less) stop calling it a Linux media player, they are computers. Why not go back to licking your own balls under your bloody bridge you troll?
I can see here why Britain is in such a rut with all these people who put down anything that is unusual or might be successful. Even getting to this point here should be applauded.
Very grown up of you.
Media player is one obvious application of this computer (else why bother with H.264 support?). The hardware can do it., but the most commonly required drivers haven't been made available. It's reasonable to ask for them, at an additional cost. If that area isn't of interest to you, then simply mind your own business.
Hope that helps.
Extra costs
To be honest, if you don't already have a spare keyboard, mouse, USB hub and display, you aren't nearly geeky enough to own one of these.
Only Linux?
Nonsense! Someone posted on Twitter the other night he had an Amstrad CPC emulator running on his Pi. And that means CPM+ can now be added to the list of OS's.
This topic is closed for new posts.
