back to article Hey Linux newbie: If you've never had a taste, try perfect Petra ... mmm, smells like Mint 16

The recently released Mint 16, nicknamed Petra, might be the perfect Linux desktop for newcomers. At its core is Ubuntu 13.10, but on top of this are desktops Mate and Cinnamon, the latter being the Mint project's homegrown user interface. Ubuntu gives a stable foundations on which to build, allowing the project to focus more …

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    1. Bootman

      Re: going for record downvotes... deep breath...

      Windows 8 is dire so that rules that out. OSX is beyond the price range of many assuming you mean buy a Mac, unless you are really suggesting a hackintosh?! Guess that leaves Windows 7. Which as it is generally not supplied with most new machines pre-installed, it can be equally as much of a headache for newbies to install as Linux, if everything doesn't work first time out of the box.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: going for record downvotes... deep breath...

      I suppose Windows is finished like DOS is then? Finished and consigned to the rubbish bin of history.

      Otherwise, why do they keep bringing out new versions with wildly different UIs if the job is done? If they're finished it should be perfect, no need for security updates. Maybe that's why Windows XP is EOL next year and so many aren't jumping to Windows 7 and 8: Windows XP is finished perfection!

      (sigh)

      No, desktops evolve, and no OS is any different. When they stop evolving, they die. A desktop will never be "finished" no matter who made it.

      As for me, I'm running FVWM on Gentoo. Heavily customised for my workflow. In fact since that post I've changed the keybindings again, so tapping the logo key pops up a menu that lets me manipulate the window or launch applications with single key presses.

      On Linux I can have as many as 30 windows open. I have four virtual desktops with 4 pages each that I spread windows between. MacOS X doesn't have virtual desktops, but it does have "spaces" which function like pages on a virtual desktop. Windows has nothing equivalent.

      Machine boots up: I press Logo, Q, W; Logo, Q M; Logo, Q, C: and there's Firefox, Thunderbird and a shell prompt on their way. The shell prompt (QTerminal) appears first, so as the others come up I usually tap Logo M D 2 to throw it over to desktop 2. Thunderbird pops up next (fewer extensions), and so while I wait for Firefox I tapo Logo M E 2, and throw it over to desktop 1 page 2. Firefox then opens in-place. This is engrained into my muscle memory now.

      Someone rings me, and I need a note pad in a hurry? No scrabbling for a pen and paper here: Logo Q E and up pops gvim, ready to accept any text I type in. Need to do a quick calculation? I can either switch over to the shell, fire up ipython and enter in my expression there, or if I need a spreadsheet, Logo Q S and up pops Gnumeric.

      I can also divide the screen into quarters, placing any application into any quarter or half of the screen. A manually tiling mode, you might say. Logo L brings up the split menu, I can split either half or quarters (2 or 4), then I specify which half or quarter I want with a single keystroke.

      For me it works well… I find myself "wasting time" more on Windows, whether it's hunting through the ever changing Start menu to find an application I need, or reaching for the rodent to make a window full-screen (or to minimise a window), or to launch an application. The vast majority of the applications I use began life on Unix-like systems, and so work natively in Linux, they behave like second-class citizens on Windows.

      The crucial thing though is the level of customisation I can achieve. This is a personal computer, not a workstation. Thus it doesn't have to suit anybody else but me. For most, if you walk up to my computer, you'll see a "Start" button up the top-left, and a task-bar along the top. There's the FVWM ButtonBar that hides down the right side; click the title and it appears, letting you access the system tray and virtual desktops. Tap the logo key, which some will do by instinct for Windows users, and up pops that menu with all the hotkeys listed. Sure, Alt-F4 will do nothing, Alt-Tab still works, but most people will find what they need in the other menu anyway.

      So my computer, works the way I want. It also installs the updates I want, when I want, and reboots only when I tell it to. In short, my computer, is in my control.

      Let's see you do that with Windows.

      1. DainB Bronze badge

        Re: going for record downvotes... deep breath...

        Now my friend try jump to other desktop and repeat you customizing. And then again and again. What did you say, you wish there were way to do it for all desktops you're logging into automatically ? Well, that's Linux my dear friend, if you want functionality like this you need start using Windows.

        And yeah, 30 windows open ? You must be best multitasker in the world and was writing this text while cooking dinner and playing violin.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: going for record downvotes... deep breath...

          I did it a fortnight ago.

          Plugged both laptops into the same gigabit network, then:

          stuartl@rikishi$ rsync -aP vk4msl-mb.local:./ .

          Voila, all settings, for all applications, replicated, on the new machine from the old. And all my documents and files to boot.

          1. DainB Bronze badge

            Re: going for record downvotes... deep breath...

            Yep, why not, works for two.

            Now try do it for 100 or maintain thousand Linux desktops in corporate environment. What did you say, sorry i can't hear past your crying.

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: going for record downvotes... deep breath...

              Man, you don't have a clue. That rsync he can do in a for loop to as many machines as he pleases. These are his personal settings though and I doubt he'll be wanting to use more than a handful. What exactly is the point you are trying to make? That there are no Linux enterprise tools is what you're trying to insinuate?

            2. Bootman

              Re: going for record downvotes... deep breath...

              Where as you may have a point in criticising Linux for certain major commercial applications not being available on it, and that workarounds have to be found in some cases, the idea that it is not possible to maintain thousands of Linux desktops in the real world is laughably insane. If Red Hat Enterprise is good enough for the US Army to deploy and manage, then it's good enough for your average corporate desktop.

              I made the assumption that your post asking if Linux is actually used by people to be a genuine question, but it appears you are just finding an excuse to troll about Linux. Now seeing as you consider it is so inferior in every way to the alternatives, why not go and suggest widespread deployment of Macs throughout organisations instead (and I don't mean for certain workers for whom they may be the appropriate choice - I mean everyone including office temps, payroll, industrial workshops), or Windows 8 for that matter, and see who's crying then. Meanwhile the rest of us can get on with deploying Windows 7 or Linux where it is appropriate.

            3. Anonymous Coward
              Holmes

              Re: going for record downvotes... deep breath...

              Now try do it for 100 or maintain thousand Linux desktops in corporate environment. What did you say, sorry i can't hear past your crying.

              My friend, meet some colleagues of mine: nfs and aufs.

              nfs to provide a read-only site-wide desktop configuration which is standard across all systems, aufs to augment that with writeable storage, either local, remote or temporary, with the user's files.

              Heck, we do something similar already. The Windows logon script here fires up Cygwin to rsync a copy of the standard office templates. The same logon script also works in Linux and MacOS X. Amongst other things, it will set up a Thunderbird profile if one doesn't exist already, and keeps the user's email signatures up to date.

              No crying here, there's plenty of ways to skin this cat.

    3. Andyb@B5

      Re: going for record downvotes... deep breath...

      Why feed the trolls when they ask, no down vote from me!

      If someone asks me what to get, I tell them whatever best fits your needs, if its Windows, go Windows, if its OSX go OSX, if its a *NIX Desktop, then go that way.

      I've been using Debian for my desktop right from the beginning and in the early days what you've said was pretty accurate, except you'd not get them in cyber cafes and the competing products were never that competent.

      Well the competitors are more competent now and polished too, but so is the Linux desktop. Its all about needs and frankly neither OSX or Windows are up to the task of meeting mine. If they could meet my needs better then I'd seriously consider them for my next upgrade. More choice is always nice.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: going for record downvotes... deep breath...

        If someone asks me what to get, I tell them whatever best fits your needs, if its Windows, go Windows, if its OSX go OSX, if its a *NIX Desktop, then go that way.

        Probably the most sensible comment in this thread. Have an up-vote.

        I've tried Windows, numerous times. I have seriously given it a shot. Its lack of flexibility, abysmal package management, poor compatibility with other platforms and general fragility, make it unusable as my primary OS. Then there's the licensing.

        A lot of things in Windows are hard-coded. Key bindings are a classic example. While I'm able to set up FVWM to respond just the way I like it… MacOS X will bend to my will, as will KDE… Windows stolidly refuses to accept any attempt to change the workflow — no I'm expected to change my workflow to suit it.

        Package management is hopeless. There are a number of software packages I use. Can I add a simple URL into some control panel and have it automatically download and install that package with its dependencies? No. I have to go to the site and download an installer, and click through a wizard. When an update is released for a package I use, I have to go back to that site, download a new installer, and go through the whole dance again to update it. Contrast this to apt-get dist-upgrade or emerge -udN world.

        Windows is one of the most antisocial platforms I've come across. Its API is completely unlike all other contemporary OSes, making porting applications a nightmare. It refuses to look at file systems which were not developed by Microsoft themselves without a third-party driver. It won't have anything to do with network protocols other than those that Microsoft invented or had a major hand in developing.

        Try to bend it to your will, and, well its like trying to bend a pane of glass, it shatters. Even something as simple as moving the taskbar to the top of the screen: minimised command windows still try to "hide" down the bottom of the screen — where they'd ordinarily be hidden by the taskbar, now they're in plain sight.

        Even if you don't try to customise it: the platform is such a soup of proprietary code I'm amased anything works. Even Microsoft's own updates have been known to break systems. I know people now who turn off Windows updates because they dislike the disruption to their work when Patch Wednesday delivers an unwanted present in the form of a problem that didn't exist the day before.

        Ohh, and did I mention licensing? Their scheme is so complex it's impossible to know where I stand. Linux, I know exactly where I stand. I'm not talking about making changes and distributing those changes. I'm talking as an end user. Linux as an end user: if it breaks, your problem. I can handle this. Microsoft: if it breaks, your problem, and we'll be checking on you on a regular basis to ensure you don't pirate our stuff!

        Servers, it's even worse. Linux: much the same as for desktops. Servers: Ohh, you have to pay for "CAL"s now. WTF is a "CAL"? Not enough to offer basically the same support for Windows Server that we get from Canonical for Ubuntu … Not enough to charge an extortionate fee for an OS license … no, we want a hand-out every time you connect a user to your server.

        Then the terms are so convoluted, not even Microsoft staff can help you.

        No, I'll stick with Linux thanks. I accept that for some, this is not an option. If you're into printed desktop publishing, then I can understand people going Photoshop over The Gimp; the latter has no support for CMYK, but if your needs are purely in the RGB colourspace, either is fine. Some of us at work use Windows because the software they use requires it.

        Three examples. One would be those looking after accounts: Australian taxation law is that complicated and changes that frequently, I cannot recommend a open-source book-keeping package that would accurately keep track.

        Another would be PLC programming, which is almost always done from a Windows environment. The likes of Rockwell might go Linux yet, but it'll take time (Microsoft's lack of direction has reportedly spooked them a little).

        Then there's CAD: the open source ones are close (heck, our workplace floor plan was designed in LibreOffice Draw — no joke), but still a long way off replacing AutoCAD.

        Thankfully for me, this is not a restriction. In fact, the stuff I do is easiest done under Linux. So I'll stay there. If Windows, MacOS X, OS/2, CP/M, Solaris or BeOS is what works for you, then great. Let's just accept that how we use computers is different, and therefore the platform we use is going to differ.

        There is no "one" OS for all applications.

    4. codejunky Silver badge

      Re: going for record downvotes... deep breath...

      @ Graeme5

      "note: linux on embedded devices and servers is where it works best. Desktop GUI just doesn't."

      You might need to tell that to my home and work machines (all 3). All of them run mint but before that I have used fedora and ubuntu. That is as well as servers and embedded devices. And that is just me, the only unstable system in here is the old windows machine but then it has been put through its paces too.

  1. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    I'm sure Mint 16 is great for a newbie, but its support will end next july. And given that Cinnamon 2 is being ported to Mint 13, which has still three years of support, I think this one's a better choice

    1. itzman

      re: Mint 13, which has still three years of support...

      yes. Its a tough call. Friend is starting on 13 because he supports a lot of dumb users and he doesn't want to end up with unsupportable systems.

      Then he phones me up and ask why XYZ is not available 'it is on later kernels in 14,15,16' I say...

      Hell my headless server is still on debian lenny, that is well out of support now. IT still does all I expect of it though...gets remoo9ted once every power cut :)

      One of my reasons to move to mint was simply that lots of debian code had bugs in it that had been fixed upstream, years before, but the code hadn't found its way to debian 'stable'.

      I am afraid you pays yer money...

      I trashed my 13 desktop, due to a NFS failure..it was quicker to reinstall 14 and copy the configs back than to fix it. Took about 3 hours to get it basically 'all there' and the usual exponential tapering of a couple of weeks (elapsed: maybe an hour or to in real time) while I played with it to get it looking nice and explore all the new features.

      Maybe Ill stick in a new disk and install petra on that to have dual boot for a while..

  2. clatters
    Linux

    Just loaded Mint 16

    Well, I have just loaded Mint 15 Cinnamon on both my laptops and I love it. Upgrade from scratch, reload /home and sort out my apps took about an hour and apart from my time-zone and WiFi password it was all done for me.

    As for the queries above (Fonts naff, cannot do xxxx) try loading ttf-mscorefonts and looking in the Mint forum for solutions. RTFM + Google + Forum = you won't go wrong.

    As for the Windows versus Linux (YAWN!!) and "what about the Newbies" comments, I have these controvertial thoughts... To go from Doze to Linux is difficult. To create an ISO image in Doze when you have not heard of an ISO image is not straightforward. Finding the right distro for your situation is fraught and confusing. To make the brave step from your beloved Windows version (because let's face it, that's all you've used up to now) to Linux of whatever version is not straightforward and is daunting.

    How did I do it? I had help. Someone to steer me to the right (at the time) distro, to hand me the DVD and to tell me how to run a Live session (a fully functioning Linux system that does not touch your hard disk - a true "try before you buy") and then to instruct me loading a dual boot machine.

    How would a Newbie really do this without help and leave the Windoze world behind unaided? It is like asking a 17 year-old to learn to drive by throwing him the keys and saying "off you go son. Keep the car between the kerbs and you won't go wrong" Doh!

  3. threepot

    So much negativity and trolling

    Don't like Linux bugger off back into your little naive world. Linux desktops meet the need of the vast majority of the typical computer user requirements. I shifted from the last crap regurgitated windows platform about 4 years ago, and never looked back once. I have the fastest desktop environment ever, all the tools I need for free, and more transparent control than ever before. Its not complicated to install, but you need to think - something alot of people don't want to do nowadays. No one can force you, but if your open minded enough you will realise there is sense ditching Windows. At first I used Ubunutu but when I upgraded to 12 didn't like unity, so shifted to Mint and been happy ever since. How can something that's good be free? Oh what little you know! The best things in life are free. When I use other peoples windows computers it blows my mind realising what I used to put up with, usually followed by the "oh I need a new PC" - no mate, you need to ditch windows. p.s. had the same install running for over a year and no loss in performance which puts any other non linux OS to shame.

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