back to article Microsoft: Surface is DEAD. Long live the Surface 2!

Undeterred by its critics, Microsoft has torn the wraps off Surface 2: its upgraded Windows 8-powered tablets, now with faster processors, better graphics, a load of new accessories, and not one but two kickstand positions. Surface Pro 2 with docking station The Surface Pro 2 with its new docking station Redmond has …

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    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Does it still run the useless Windows RT?

      It's a tablet, with a good screen (now), a very good web browser, a good keyboard and office for when you need to edit documents. There's quite a few apps too now.

      For what I use my ipad for seems like its a better fit than the ipad

      1. asdf

        Re: Does it still run the useless Windows RT?

        Lots of positive opinions posted AC on this article. Wonder if it has anything to do with the prior article about companies getting nailed for posting fake reviews.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Fake reviews

          I don't think Waggener-Edstrom was among the companies that were investigated, so its employees probably still aren't afraid enough to post AC.

          It has probably more to do with posts made under some IDs here being already downvoted almost automatically - see vogon, richto, mmeier, lds... They have taken such a extremist and disconnected, fanatical pro-ms position so frequently that almost nobody takes them seriously any more. Almost like they were some sort of anti-Eadon particles^Hcommentards.

          1. Fihart

            Re: Fake reviews @jbernardo

            For fuller explanation of jbernardo's contribution, Waggener-Edstrom are PR hacks for the digital age and (surprise, surprise) close neighbours of Microsoft's Redmond campus.

          2. RyokuMas
            Facepalm

            Re: Fake reviews

            Fanatics come in all flavours... unfortunately!

          3. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Fake reviews

            Because the fanatical pro-Linux, pro-Google, pro-Apple and anti-MS positions here are instead "connected and relaxed"? Many post here against cannot be taken seriously as well, and just demonstrate a conceited hate agains MS just because the poster thinks if he bash MS he's automatically "cool" as he learned in some fanatical IRC channel.

            Grew up guys, get out of your bedrooms and basements, meet some real people out of IRC and forums...

            1. Vociferous

              Tarring with a broad brush there, bud.

              > Because the fanatical pro-Linux, pro-Google, pro-Apple and anti-MS positions here are instead "connected and relaxed"?

              FWIW, I'm a Microsoft user since before Windows 3.0. I've been a Microsoft fanboi since Windows 95 through to Windows 8, which I hate because it's it's the wrong step in the wrong direction as a result of the wrong answer to the wrong question. Win 8 did get me to finally learn Linux, which I suppose is a good thing.

              I consider Windows RT to be useless because it is a Windows which doesn't run Windows software - and if all you want to do is surf and watch movies, there are cheaper alternatives which work just as well. I can't imagine any informed buyer buying an RT machine.

              1. Anonymous Coward
                Anonymous Coward

                Re: Tarring with a broad brush there, bud.

                I do not like Windows 8 on "touchless" devices as well. I have lots of Linux servers and the application my company develop run both on Linux (RHEL, Ubuntu and Debian) and Windows - I work on both - and know well both. I don't like Linux as a desktop OS but that's my opinion and I do not force anybody to use one or the other.

                I agree RT is something nobody felt a need for. But I like the Pro because it fits my needs (I have a lot of Windows applications I like to use on a device like that, LightRoom, for example), and I can't see why I should say it is bad if I think it is not - just because bashing MS is trendy here. I see a very childish attitude here, and sometimes I wonder if I'm talking to grown up people or just to teenagers that thinks they are IT gurus because they were able to install Ubuntu on dad's machine...

  1. Petalium

    Good to see some improvements on the battery life, the only downside with the current pro version.

    I simply love the pro, it has replaced my old development machine, runs SQL server and development studio, easy to lug around between conference rooms. Unlike my IPad it doesn't crash all the time when surfing web pages, excellent screen, basically it has replaced both the IPad and the laptop. Lack of apps?, who the fck cares, I have millions of windows programs to choose from.

    Disclaimer, I may be mad, I also like the ribbon menu system, windows phone and thinks Linux is worth exactly what you pay for it....

    1. mmeier

      Screen is a tad small and the unit (still) lacks LTE (or at least 3G) and user replaceable battery. But otherwise the S/P2 is very nice even more so since MS (unlike the Tab11 or the Asus units) will offer 8GB of memory

      60 percent increase in endurance => 7+ h on the internal 42Wh Battery.

      30Wh "Keyboard battery" => 5+h on more

      So at under 1.5kg I can get a full powered core i5 with 8GB/256GB SSD (and not a pseudo SSD like in the Android/iThingy units) running a full powered OS for 12 hours. Nice.and the price is ok as well for the build quality of the Surface with the metal shell and all.

      And best of all it uses WACOM so there is a third "Wacom" player in the field aside from Lenovos new Yoga and a Fujitsu-refurbished T902. Guess the "switch to NTrig" option of the Sonys no longer is of interest.

  2. Inventor of the Marmite Laser Silver badge

    Lets see: Windows 8. No thanks. Definitely no, thanks. No, no, no, no.

    Price: no thanks

    1. RyokuMas

      Let's see:

      "Windows 8. No thanks. Definitely no, thanks. No, no, no, no." - sounds like a knee-jerk "I hate Microsoft" reaction.

      "Price: no thanks" - fair enough.

      1. Inventor of the Marmite Laser Silver badge

        Actually, unlike your comment, it's not a knee jerk reaction; it's a conisdered opinion after giving Win8 something of a try.

        I do not like it at all. Possibly with Classic Shell but, there again, why should I tonk around making it usable? I didn't have to run around customising my new car whan I bought it, just to make it possible to drive, so why should I be expected to do that with what is suposed to be a finished and polished OS?

      2. Ron Christian

        Reply Icon

        Let's see:

        "Windows 8. No thanks. Definitely no, thanks. No, no, no, no." - sounds like a knee-jerk "I hate Microsoft" reaction.

        "Price: no thanks" - fair enough.

        ------------------

        I dunno... I have Win7 at work and at home, and get along with it. I have Win8 on a convertible, and it's essentially shelfware. I may give it another try when 8.1 comes out, but I consider the device essentially unusable at this time.

        So, it's possible to not want Windows 8, not due to a knee jerk "I hate Microsoft" or "I stood out in the rain to get my latest trendy brushed metal fruit box" but simply because "I tried it, and in my professional opinion, it sucked."

        1. mmeier

          If you do not like Win8 - put Win7 on the convertible. It supports tablet pc just fine (tablets OTOH are not supported well)

    2. DrXym

      Windows 8.1 actually.

      I use Windows 8 on a conventional laptop and while I have plenty of gripes about its behaviour with a mouse / keyboard (only some of which 8.1 resolves) I think it works quite well with a touch screen. It's also very stable and responsive.

      The price on the other hand is stupidly expensive and not helped by Microsoft still stuffing gimped RT on the lower end model. It would have made more sense to drop it and ship a proper Windows tablet powered by an Atom processor.

  3. BlackKnight(markb)

    best thing about the surface is its ease of integration into my home network. within 2 hours of getting the RT home, I had it connected to the network, accessible from my home network devices for file and folder sharing, US VPN configured for netflix and had the missus using it for uni. Still haven't found a way to do that with apple, still looking for a network smb file browser for andriod.

    for someone who very quickly loses patients with technology, this thing is yet to fly accross the room (unlike the iphone) and simply does the job. the lack of choice for web browsers is disappointing. but the version of IE on this thing isnt half bad speed wise (significant improvement on the desktop version).

    Windows 8 on the tablet actually works well, I wont run it on my desktop as i don't have a touch screen, so you lose a lot when your locked to mouse and keyboard.

    1. Frumious Bandersnatch

      @BlackKnight(markb)

      for someone who very quickly loses patients with technology

      I really hope you're not a doctor or someone in the medical profession ...

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: @BlackKnight(markb)

        A doctor wouldn't lose a patient with technology, that would be the receptionist booking their appointment under the wrong name.

    2. Chemist

      "still looking for a network smb file browser for andriod"

      I set our file server to use Samba just to allow my wife's Android phone and tablet. She uses File Expert and you connect using ( from my memory) something like tools-network-client.

    3. Mark #255

      Android Network file browser

      still looking for a network smb file browser for andriod

      The ES File Explorer does exactly what you're looking for. I've used it to browse on WinXP, Win7 and Samba (Ubuntu 10.04) servers.

      1. DrXym

        Re: Android Network file browser

        ES File Explorer is a very decent file manager for Android. SMB copying is a little slow though.

    4. Hi Wreck
      FAIL

      Re: 2 hours?

      I'm not that patient.

  4. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    What a train wreck

    This is like watching a train speeding to a brick wall. You know the train can't stop and the brick wall is not going to jump out of the way ( always wondered about people who get hit by trains - did they think the train was going to go around them?) ..

    First the Tablet formerly known as RT It brings nothing compelling to the market (unless you are a Bill love child and think MS sh*ts gold). Apple own the high end and Android owns everything else. I have not seen one reason to buy one. Any reason you come up with does not matter to 99% of the market - and that is no my opinion but the facts from the sales numbers.

    And the Pro 2 is chasing a market that is so small it would not even rate a slice on the pie chard. I'm sure there is small number of people that like to sit at home and work on Excel spreadsheets or run MS SQL servers just like there is a small number of people who need to own a garbage truck. So if a garbage truck (or a Pro 2) fits your needs then buy one, Just be ready to spend your life in that part of the pie chart of tablet sales labeled "other".

    Thinking about it I would not be surprised if the number of garbage truck sales are greater than Pro 2. I am certain they do not smell as bad as a Pro 2. {}:>))

    1. mmeier

      Re: What a train wreck

      For a market "that small" the big players seem to be very busy in there. Lenovo, Sony, Asus, Acer, Samsung, .... - all building new tablet pc and convertibles.

      Guess they know their market a bit better than some AC.

  5. asdf

    Wow

    Just based on the amount of votes for pro Microsoft comments Microsoft marketing is really making a push the second time around. Guess they finally learned about astroturfing.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Wow

      On the contrary, it is a bit low key now. Did you forget that any post critical of WP7 would get more than 30 downvotes when the first Lumias came out? And that a few commentards would immediately come out quoting MS canned responses, like "if you don't have one you're not allowed to criticise", or "it will be fixed next version"?

      Or that any critic of the first surfaces would be downvoted like crazy too, and would get exactly the same canned answers?

      Of course, if you go to any site that uses disqus or livefyre for the comments, you'll see the hundreds of non-anonymous, single time posters praising whatever microsoft is selling and attacking anyone who dares to criticise them. But those aren't astroturfers, no, they are genuine, outraged microsoft fans who go to the trouble of creating an account to post only once and then disappear.

      As for iteration 2 of the surfaces, it still feels like watching a train wreck in slow motion... Still not offering anything to tablet users, maybe appealing to ultrabook users but too expensive still even for that.

      1. mmeier

        Re: Wow

        Maybe not offering anything if "Tablet == iThingy inspired TouchyToy". But if tablet is "Wacom/Ntrig equiped, full powered CPU and OS like MS does since 2003" than the S/P2 and the other Haswell units have a LOT to offer. Enough endurance for a workday, enough power for everything except First Person Shooters, guarantee that the PowerPoint/Excel/Word stuff with embedded VBA etc. runs, mature tablet software and so on.

    2. Vociferous

      Re: Wow

      They spent a billion dollars on marketing their tablets the first time. They're spending a LOT less this time; probably they're targeting social networks more, because that's cheap, and airing fewer TV commercials, because that's expensive.

  6. Mikel

    What I wouldn't give

    For the popcorn concession.

  7. Fihart

    Choices, choices.

    1) iPad

    2) Cheap Android

    Sorry, did I leave Surface off that list ?

  8. localzuk Silver badge

    Nice improvements

    Some great little improvements here. If only they'd sell the 2 as a loss leader, they'd build up a market in no time.

  9. Richie 1

    those combination car/boat vehicles

    I think you mean "hovercraft".

    1. MJI Silver badge

      Re: those combination car/boat vehicles

      Hovervan!

  10. Anonymous Custard
    Paris Hilton

    Confusion

    So Microsoft's solution to the confusion people were having between the "Surface RT" and the "Surface Pro" is to call the updated RT one the "Surface 2"? Somehow that makes things clearer?

    1. Vociferous

      Re: Confusion

      It's not intended to make things clearer, it's intended to increase the market share of Windows RT at any cost, because Windows Phone and Windows RT must reach critical mass so developers start writing apps for them.

  11. Rallicat
    Thumb Up

    I agree the price needs to be cheaper, Microsoft are playing catch up, and they need to be prepared to make a loss in order to establish share with Surface. On the other hand, there are plenty of other vendors out there producing Windows 8 tablets, so it's not as if there isn't choice at other price points.

    I generally see Surface as a premium reference tablet. Given the limited distribution, how else can you view it? It shows what a Windows 8 tablet can be, and fills the premium space because let's face it, who else is really going to seriously build a premium Windows 8 tablet?

    As for whether or not it's any good... well yes, it is. There's nothing in particular 'wrong' with it, and the best fault finding that most people are doing in this thread is largely splitting hairs. Sure it's not for everyone, but it can really suit a lot of people's needs, and for anyone looking for a premium tablet it's worth at least considering it rather than dismissing it just because it's Microsoft.

  12. chiller

    ..... and MS stumble onwards like a pissed up old fart ......

  13. phy445

    Ugly dock

    I'm afraid that dock in the first picture is astonishingly ugly. It looks like someone on Hackaday ripped some bits out of an old printer to repurpose as a stand.

    I think they have even managed to out-ugly Dyson!

    If MS want large numbers of people to part with money for slabs and the peripherals then they need to up the style factor. At the moment the Tesco slab looks better.

  14. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Camera weirdness on Surface models

    According to Paul Thurrott, the Surface 2 Pro still has the appalling low resolution cameras fitted to the original model. Surface 2 at least has something believable.

    If true, we can look forward to some fun reviews about just how bad this £1000 (configured sensibly) tablet/notebook weighs in against Nexus 7, iPad and the rest of the competition.

    Bizarrely, the much cheaper Surface reportedly has camera upgrades to 1080p video, 3.5 and 5 megapixel stills.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Camera weirdness on Surface models

      Because no sensible user would use it as a camera device? As long as the built-in camera is good for Skype calls or the like it's enough. Frankly, I found very silly people trying to get photos or videos with a tablet. I prefer by far my full-frame DSLR to take photos and videos...

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Camera weirdness on Surface models

        Some people use iPad etc. as camera, benefit is you are not squinting through a tiny viewfinder or miniature screen so great for some kinds of composition. I don't take photos this way normally but just because like you I use a DSLR for good shots and phone for convenience doesn't make people who do things differently silly.

        Far more silly to skimp on a few dollars worth of camera on a premium tablet so iPad/Surface comparisons lose a popular use case.

        What I personally use the rear facing camera for is imaging applications from OCR to other custom software I develop. Lots of really handy uses. Presumably whoever signed off the Pro 2 spec in Redmond, like you, didn't understand why at least a basic 5MP/1080p camera is a must have feature for modern tablets.

        Annoyed because I'm now faced with releasing Windows store apps next year which will display a 'feature not available' message when software encounters a low resolution camera like the Surface Pro.

        1. mmeier

          Re: Camera weirdness on Surface models

          Camera in a "toy breed" (iOS, Android, RT) - well that may get used and may be useful. Never understood those things they are even worse than a compact camera when it comes to sensor size, zoom etc.

          Camera in a tablet pc? What for? Photographing the whiteboard that is no longer used because tablet+beamer (or tablet+60'' display) have replaced it? Actually NO camera would be the best solution. If you need one - the S/P2 has USB for that.

  15. Zed Zee

    Microsoft don't seem to get it.

    Pardon me, but didn't MS just write off $1B worth of the first gen Surface?

    What are they doing pumping out 'more of the same' then?!

    This strategy of releasing a faster, better product does not make sense. There are far more fundamental strategy points to deal with than adding "2" at the end of the product's name.

    Things like deciding on one architecture and not two; either go with Intel (not recommended, since they don't have even 1% market share in the mobile/tab market) or ARM (defo!) architecture, so that developers don't have to write (or at least, compile) their apps twice, for two different architectures.

    Second, more focus on an entry-level, cheap tablet is more of a priority, since MS is so late to the party - they simply cannot afford to slap an arrogant price on it (as Apple continue to do on their's), because they're not setting the trend here. So, a cheap entry-level 7"/8" tab would be a really good idea right now, to get their foot in the door; here's hoping Nokia will show them how to do it with the Lumia 2520 ("Sirius") tablet.

    Third, invest in bringing Windows Phone 8 to work on tablets, not slap on there the desktop Windows 8 version. This will mean one code base, one API for devs and hopefully lower licensing costs - a bit like what Canonical is trying to do.

    Can someone who knows someone in MS, please pass on these suggestions...?

    1. Ron Christian

      Re: Microsoft don't seem to get it.

      ...because making incremental improvements and adding a "2" on the end is all they know.

  16. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    faster processor, huge ssd, reasonably priced

    600 squid and it's a deal!

    ...

    er... actually... it's GBP 1400 in the basic configuration.... sir. But it DOES include a free stand! It's the finest stand in the whole galaxy, sir!

    ...

    ok, 620 then!

    ...

    Unfortunately sir, this amount can only buy you... just over 3.35 magnetically detachable keyboards for the abovementioned hardware... sir. But they are the finest keyboards the galaxy has ever seen!

    1. Chemist

      Re: faster processor, huge ssd, reasonably priced

      "finest keyboards the galaxy has ever seen"

      Presumably the product of the Sirius Cybernetic Corporation - hopefully there's a wall looming

  17. Ron Christian

    Gaaah!

    > Prices for the Surface 2 start at $450 for a base-spec unit and $900 for the Surface Pro.

    Let's PLEASE stop continuing this misconception. The Surface 2 and Surface Pro (Surface 2 Pro) are two different products, with different architectures, and they are not software compatible with each other. The Pro purports to run Windows PC apps. The Surface 2 will only run the paltry handful of Windows apps compiled for the ARM processor.

    Users interested in the Surface product line must be very careful about this. I can't imagine that more than a tiny, tiny fraction of the consumers interested in the Surface product line want to buy one because of how cool the form factor is and how nifty the GUI. They want to buy one in the belief that they are slates that will run their existing PC applications, being the best of both worlds. Yes, exactly in the Borg sense, but never mind. This (backwards compatibility) is the ONLY reason to buy one of these overpriced devices.

    The problems are these:

    1) Windows PC apps will "run" on the Surface Pro, but because legacy apps are not touch enabled, to use them effectively requires a keyboard and a mouse. Hence, you are technically running your app on a slate, but you're not using the slate in the way slates are generally understood to be used.

    2) Windows PC apps will not run AT ALL on a Surface RT or a Surface 2. This can not be said enough times. If you buy an ARM based Surface, it must be with the understanding that the only apps you can use are the ones that come with the device and whatever is in the Windows RT marketplace. If you're buying an ARM based Surface, you need to be satisfied that you prefer the Surface form factor and the Win8 interface enough to put up with the lack of apps.

    1. mmeier

      Re: Gaaah!

      Right on the second point, wrong on the first. Surface/Pro has a WACOM stylus and with that you can use legacy applications just fine. Currently doing so (FireFox on a T731 in tablet mode)

      1. Ron Christian

        Re: Gaaah!

        I beg to differ. I have a Windows 8 convertible (asus) with a stylus and it's absolutely pants on Windows 8. This must be a very unusual definition of "just fine".

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