Sign in / up

back to article Bolivian president's jet grounded so officials can look for Snowden

Bolivian president Evo Morales was obliged to land in Vienna en route home from attending a gas exporters' conference in Moscow over suspicions that NSA-contractor-turned-whistleblower Edward Snowden might be aboard the presidential jet. According to the BBC, Austrian officials who searched the jet have given the all-clear, …

COMMENTS

House rules Send corrections
This topic is closed for new posts.

Page:

                    1. Matt Bryant Silver badge
                      Reply Icon
                      FAIL

                      Re: moiety Re: moiety moiety James Missingaclue

                      "....I don't give a flying fuck about international law...." Aw, how naive! Don't tell me, you insist on equality and liberty but want "special treatment" outside the law for those you think are deserving..... Fail!

                      ".....Given a suitable shedload of money to throw at two teams of lawyers...." Diplomatic disputes are settled at the International Court of Law. If Morales had wanted to contest the Austrian insistence on "confirming the passenger manifest" then he could have refused, but THEN the Austrians would have had the legal right to actually ground his jet UNTIL the relevant lawyers, expensive or otherwise, had trotted off to the ICoL, all of which would probably have taken many months. If you don't understand the basics of the game you will always be left shrieking and bleating indignantly.

                      "....They don't have to threaten...." But you stated that they had, so you're now admitting that actually they haven't. All in all, it would be a pretty stupid diplomatic threat - "Do as we say or we nuke you!" - as what would they do when countries simply called their bluff? I can see that a career in law or diplomacy and yourself are destined to be strangers during your lifetime.

                      "..... I do know the aviation connotation of grounded, yes....." Oh, so you simply lied then? Or did you forget in your rush to righteously froth? Fail again!

                      ".....The plane was forced to the ground...." Nope, they requested permission to overfly Austrian territory and land to refuel. The Austrians agreed but then exercised their legal right to confirm the passenger manifest. Morales had the option of turning round and returning to his original start point (Moscow) or accepting the Austrian terms. He chose to accept, no "grounding" required. Fail again, again!

                      0 2
          2. Johan Bastiaansen
            Reply Icon
            FAIL

            Re: James Missingaclue

            "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Bolivia

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecuador#Human_rights

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Venezuela"

            ...

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Guantanamo_Bay

            0 1
      2. Chris_Maresca
        Reply Icon

        Diplomatic immunity

        I carried a diplomatic passport for a number of years and my wife is currently a consular official. Here are some general rules about diplomatic immunity.

        1. The person, residence & vehicle of an accredited diplomat are considered sovereign territory of the diplomats home country. Entering the premises or vehicle is the equivalent of crossing a border. My wife technically commutes to a foreign country every time she goes to work and a different set of laws apply to her when she is at work.

        2. It is possible for a diplomat to confer diplomatic immunity to another person even when not in their residence or vehicle. This can be done by holding on to someone. The West Germans famously did this when East Germans were scaling the fence around the West German embassy in Prague, circa 1989.

        A couple of things to note:

        1. To have full immunity, you must carry a letter of accreditation from the host government. Even without it, you have partial immunity, but it is much, much more tenuous.

        2. The rules are just rules, there is no way to actually enforce them. Governments have ultimate and unlimited power (theoretically) over individuals and diplomatic immunity will not protect you if they go all out.

        3. Heads of state generally have a different, higher level of immunity in foreign countries than diplomats. I'm not entirely sure what the legalities are, but I do know from personal experience that head of state status allows for things that diplomats could never, ever do.

        I find this whole thing rather strange. If I had been in Morales' place, I would have ordered the plan to fly on as there was little that any government could do stop it short of shooting it down. It's a matter of principle as much as anything else, a sovereign head of state is just that, sovereign.

        It's a disturbing precedent to say that if you are a relatively weak country your sovereignty counts for nothing. And searching a head of state's plane is pretty much the same as invading a country to look for someone/something. This whole thing reeks - it's a sad day when someone vocally opposed to the US can't find refuge anywhere and even sadder when states resort to violating sovereign immunity as a means to an end.

        9 0
        1. PJI
          Reply Icon
          Unhappy

          Re: Matt B.

          I find this reasoning about a country being able to do what it wants if it suspects that a diplomatic aircraft contains, e.g., a spy or some other "wanted" person by, for example, the USA (one would have thought that at least that person should be wanted by the stopping state) disturbing and inconsistent, if not mediaeval in concept.

          1. So what happened with those thoroughly illegal "rendition" flights? Why did every country permit them to enter their airspace, even after it was public knowledge?

          2. Am I the only one, not surprised but certainly disgusted at the confirmation, who is interested that just about every European country obeys American government (not even USA parliament, just government officials, public servants) diktat so readily, despite the "shock" that the USA has been spying on them for commercial and diplomatic advantage? What is more, the governments are sufficiently ashamed, in most cases, that they tried to pretend there were technical problems with their flight control systems on the ground. Under what treaty, formal, reviewed application or whatever was this legal in any of those countries? Why did they feel obliged to obey? Is this legal even in the USA?

          3. Is the USA the same country as the one expressing outrage at Chinese spying? Is this the same one that routinely deals with other countries terrorists and criminals as honoured guests, when those people are doing what the USA likes? e.g. inviting IRA terrorists to the White House?

          4. Human rights - I gather that certain S. American countries were berated about these, just like the state behind Guantanamo.

          No. I accept that the USA pursues its own interests, presumably in the belief that its methods are best for its people; that is the job of the USA government. But the hypocrisy of the USA and the pusillanimous acquiescence of "sovereign" states is terrifying.

          4 1
          1. Matt Bryant Silver badge
            Reply Icon
            FAIL

            Re: PJI Re: Matt B.

            "I find this reasoning about a country being able to do what it wants if it suspects that a diplomatic aircraft contains, e.g., a spy or some other "wanted" person by, for example, the USA (one would have thought that at least that person should be wanted by the stopping state) disturbing and inconsistent, if not mediaeval in concept....." We'll then maybe you should try a little READING other than Indymedia - first article of the Chicago Convention states a country has sole and complete sovereignty of the airspace over its country. Nothing medieval there.

            ".....So what happened with those thoroughly illegal "rendition" flights? Why did every country permit them to enter their airspace, even after it was public knowledge?....." <Sigh> Is it too much to expect just one of you sheeple to do some research before making your bleating posts? The NATO agreement allowed the member countries to make "terrorist related" flights over each other's territory without declaring the passenger manifest, which meant the countries overflown could truthfully deny knowledge of who was actually being moved by the CIA. That agreement made the allowance of the flights by the overflown countries quite legal. Bolivia has no such agreement with France, Portugal or Austria.

            ".....Am I the only one, not surprised but certainly disgusted at the confirmation, who is interested that just about every European country obeys American government...." Well, all the people without a clue probably agree with you. But the Austrians were just following international law because, if the Bolivians had been carrying a person not declared on the passenger manifest and without the correct documentation, then the Bolivians would have been breaking the laws involved. Whilst it played out quite nicely for the Yanks, the Austrians would have been just as legally obliged to request the Bolivians land for a check as if Snowden hadn't existed. I think you'll find most countries have been taking a dim view of people illegally entering their territory for quite a while before Snowden threw his little tantrum.

            "....Is the USA the same country as the one expressing outrage at Chinese spying?...." Seriously? You want to equate what the NSA and GCHQ does with what the Chinese get up to? To be frank, you really do need to do a LOT more reading.

            ".....Human rights - I gather that certain S. American countries were berated about these, just like the state behind Guantanamo....." Yes, I mean it's so terrible that we lock up terrorists rather than just shooting them out of hand, right? Get a clue.

            "......But the hypocrisy of the USA and the pusillanimous acquiescence of "sovereign" states is terrifying." Oh puh-lease, put a sock in your faux outrage before you froth yourself to death. If any of Snowden's revelations were news to you then you really should consider yourself just ill-educated, and if you really think other countries aren't doing the same or worse then you are also incredibly and willfully naive. I suggest you grow up, there World is not the cuddly ickle playpen you think it is.

            0 1
      3. jonfr
        Reply Icon
        Stop

        It was in fact not followed by international law. Can you imagine what would happen if this was done to the airplane of the U.S president.

        By international law the travel method of presidents enjoy certain perks, like not being blocked from crossing air space or being searched as did happen here.

        International law was broken here under the pressure from the U.S. The sad fact is that based on how U.N is set-up, nothing is going to be done about this violation of international law.

        0 1
      4. Anonymous Coward
        Reply Icon
        Anonymous Coward

        The aircraft travelling through foreign airspace is subject to the laws of the airspace owner, so if a person is wanted for a crime

        Stealing United States Government Secrets isn't a crime in any European nation, so they have no grounds to even ask to search the Plane of the Bolivian President.

        1 1
    2. MJI Silver badge
      Reply Icon

      Pity we still don't have

      An airliner capable of out running most jet fighters.

      Can any do the whole Atlantic at Mach 2?

      2 0
    3. Serge 2
      Reply Icon

      You see, Bolivia does not have ICBM's, or significant amount of navy, army or airforce and does not have strong economic influence. Thats exactly why. I would love to see anyone grounding mr Putins plane for any reason but his own safety under his recommendations.

      0 0
  2. Ralph B
    Black Helicopters

    "Suspects"?!?!

    > The Ecuadorian government also suspects its emails have been intercepted.

    They suspect that their email has been intercepted? "Suspect"?!?! Surely, if they've read anything that Snowden has leaked, they must already know that it has most definitely been intercepted.

    I know I do.

    8 0
  3. I ain't Spartacus Gold badge

    GCHQ didn't plant that bug in the Ecuadorian embassy

    It was Julian Assange. How else do you think he got their consul's password so he could knock up a travel document for Snowden without the government's permission?

    Well OK, he'd probably just hack the computers for that. So maybe it is our bug. Or an imaginary one. This story really could run-and-run. The great thing about spying, once it gets onto the news agenda, is that no-one believes denials, which are rarely issued anyway, and so you can pretty much say anything. Happy days for journalists with column inches to fill, at least.

    2 5
    1. Anonymous Coward 15
      Reply Icon

      Re: GCHQ didn't plant that bug in the Ecuadorian embassy

      That's just what I was thinking.

      1 1
  4. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    I can see the next terror plot..

    Al-queda can run a DDOS against the airlines just by booking Edward Snowden on to flights all round the world.

    There wont be a flight able to move if they've got a suspicion that he's book on board.

    I wonder how many other Edward Snowdens there are in the world? Hope they didnt have a summer holiday booked anywhere.

    12 0
    1. WatAWorld
      Reply Icon

      Re: I can see the next terror plot..

      What we need are hair and skin samples from Snowden that we can distribute in hotel rooms around the world at the sources and destinations of those flights.

      0 0
      1. Anonymous Coward
        Reply Icon
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: I can see the next terror plot..

        Actually, if you agree with the principles of Snowdens' actions then we can all change our names to Edward Snowden by deed poll (it's surpisingly easy to do in the UK) and then march on #10 to make our feelings felt.

        0 0
        1. PJI
          Reply Icon
          Thumb Up

          Re: I can see the next terror plot..

          Not even deed poll. In GB, I believe all you have to do is start calling yourself by that name and publish the change. Of course, your bank and others may want some evidence that you are you, making a deed poll worthwhile.

          0 0
    2. Anonymous Coward 15
      Reply Icon

      Re: I can see the next terror plot..

      No, I'm Edward Snowden!

      1 0
  5. andy gibson

    Appropriate Cassetteboy

    One minute and eight seconds in:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S77icnRG3_c

    0 0
  6. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Guilty until proved innocent

    "Sieging/bugging of Ecuador's London embassy and the blockading of Morales jet shows that imperial arrogance is the gift that keeps on giving"

    Of course the bug was planted by those imperialist dogs, the US. Never mind providing any evidence.

    Personally, I'd suspect the publicity hungry alleged rapist with a persecution complex, who is staying there, of generating a publicity stunt.

    As for wikileaks itself, I'll have some respect for them when they start releasing secret documents from military juntas and countries/groups whose usual response is to issue a fatwa.

    5 7
  7. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Snowden is a traitor in the sense that that guy who stood in front of the column of tanks at Tienanmen Square is a traitor.

    Snowden is a traitor in the sense that Nelson Mandela is a traitor.

    Snowden is a traitor in the sense that Paul Revere was a traitor.

    Look at the Hate Preachers we in the UK and they in the USA give political asylum to. Look at the real spies who took money to betray their country, and we shelter them.

    Look at the mass-murdering ex-dictators that we arrange to have sheltered in our African and Asian puppet colonies.

    Then look at Snowden, a great man who betrayed his bureaucracy to be loyal to his country and its constitution.

    Americans call on their generals and congressmen to uphold the Constitution, but then when someone does do that they are content to quietly let them be martyred.

    If Snowden cannot get political asylum, we might as well ditch the entire political asylum thing as a farcical sham.

    57 5
    1. Anonymous Coward
      Reply Icon
      Anonymous Coward

      If Snowden cannot get political asylum, we might as well ditch the entire political asylum thing as a farcical sham.

      If Snowden can get political asylum, we might as well ditch the entire criminal justice system and install revolving doors in all embassies in the world.

      There, fixed that for you. Regardless of it being for the public good, releasing secret information is a crime in practically any country in the world. During a trial a whistle-blowing defence may be used, but it did start with theft of information.

      1 20
      1. Sir Runcible Spoon
        Reply Icon

        Doesn't the constitution of the US supercede the laws?

        I.e. it is possible to perform an illegal act for a higher good.

        There ARE higher ideals than those represented by the LAW you know.

        If the US made it illegal to disobey orders, and then ordered you to commit an atrocity - surely refusing is the correct thing to do. To do otherwise would be a traitor to your humanity.

        15 0
        1. Tomato42
          Reply Icon
          Black Helicopters

          Re: Sir Runcible Spoon

          ...and blanket invigilation of the whole population is against the bill of human rights

          black 'copters because my spell check doesn't like "invigilation". MiniTrue not approved perhaps?

          0 0
      2. PJI
        Reply Icon

        offence in any country?

        Only in the country to which, nominally, that person belongs as a citizen or subject.

        So, insulting the king of Thailand is viewed as a serious offence there. I suspect though that the USA would not extradite any of its people to Thailand for insulting the Thai king, nor to Saudi Arabia for drinking alcohol or insulting the prophet, Mohammed.

        What's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.

        1 1
        1. Matt Bryant Silver badge
          Reply Icon
          FAIL

          Re: PJI Re: offence in any country?

          "....I suspect though that the USA would not extradite any of its people to Thailand for insulting the Thai king, nor to Saudi Arabia for drinking alcohol or insulting the prophet, Mohammed....." I suggest you add extradition treaties to your remedial reading list, you obviously missed a lot of school.

          0 1
      3. Johan Bastiaansen
        Reply Icon
        FAIL

        "but it did start with theft of information"

        No, it started with breaking to constitution.

        You're trying to arrest a rape victim for indecent exposure.

        2 2
    2. All names Taken
      Reply Icon
      Paris Hilton

      can I add:

      Snowden is a traitor and the bankers bankrupting the world are heroes of the first order?

      2 0
  8. The Man Himself Silver badge
    Holmes

    "The Ecuadorian government also suspects its emails have been intercepted."

    After all the press coverage about PRISM, they only *suspect* interception.

    2 0
  9. apleszko

    Cabin not searched

    BBC was wrong, other news agencies told the plane was not searched at all, they just "asked" the passengers to clear customs with their passports, the guy could be inside the plane at this moment, we will just be sure when it reaches its destination or somebody still sees him at the russian airport...

    2 0
    1. Roland6 Silver badge
      Reply Icon

      Re: Cabin not searched

      But the US have revoked the passport for Edward Snowden.

      The Austrians only said that they searched for a US citizen holding a passport in the name of "Edward Snowden", they did not say that they did not find someone resembling "Edward Snowden".

      0 0
  10. Mad Mike

    USAs World Persona

    And they wonder why people hate the US!!

    When will the US realise that all this sort of thing does is create enemies. Almost everything immoral/illegal they've ever accused anyone else of doing, they've been found to be doing themselves as well. Then, the US turns round and complains about people hating them and wanting to do them harm!! Look in the mirror. Some of the US population are complicit in this, but I believe many are not. They are just as fed up with it as everyone else. Eventually, it will end, simply because the US is rapidly running itself into bankruptcy. In the meantime, they're creating enemies like it's going out of fashion.

    When are the US going to realise that they are the greatest recruiting agent organisations like Al Quaeda could possibly hope for.

    23 1
    1. Ralph B
      Reply Icon
      Mushroom

      Re: USAs World Persona

      A situation summarised rather entertainingly in Team America:World Police.

      0 0
    2. Anonymous Coward
      Reply Icon
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: USAs World Persona

      I dunno about anyone else, but I'm really starting to feel radicalized by the actions of the US and our own puppet governments.

      If it is their intention to use programs like PRISM to PREVENT insurrection, perhaps they need to re-think. It seems to me they are creating the very thing that they are afraid of. Small minded people do this all the time.

      15 1
      1. shawnfromnh
        Reply Icon

        Re: USAs World Persona

        "" Small minded people do this all the time.""

        Of course they're small minded. Big minds are free from the box that only a small mind allows itself to be confined into by a governmental architecture that is in itself a huge clusterf**k.

        0 0
  11. Anomalous Cowshed

    Boss!!!

    "So, you got him?"

    "No, we found nothing. Just bags and bags of white powder. No sign of Snowden."

    "OK wrap it up, then, let the plane take off, he's not in there!

    4 0
    1. Matt Bryant Silver badge
      Reply Icon
      Happy

      Re: Boss!!!

      For those that didn't get the reference - http://www.iol.co.za/news/world/drugs-found-in-ecuador-diplomatic-pouch-1.1231662

      0 0
    2. Peter Simpson 1
      Reply Icon
      Happy

      Re: Boss!!!

      "Just bags and bags of white powder."

      Coals to Newcastle?

      2 0
      1. Justicesays
        Reply Icon
        Thumb Up

        Re: Boss!!!

        http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Bolivian_marching_powder

        0 0
  12. bearded bear can
    Holmes

    Note to self:

    Travel to Ecuador BEFORE leaking top secret stuff.

    4 0
    1. Matt Bryant Silver badge
      Reply Icon
      Happy

      Re: bearded bear can Re: Note to self:

      "Travel to Ecuador BEFORE leaking top secret stuff." And don't take advice from Wikileaks "legal experts" that didn't even know enough about the laws of the countries they wanted to gain assylum from to know they needed to actually be in those countires to apply.....

      1 3
  13. Anonymous Coward
    Facepalm

    What have we learnt this week that we didn't already know or suspect?

    nothing

    it just grates when the proof comes out and not one country is willing to do anything or say anything (truthful) about it.

    Snowden will get his asylum I think, unless America really control it's citizens that much that there wouldn't be uproar when they try to try him? especially after they broke their own 4th amendment on their own people.

    4 0
    1. Sir Runcible Spoon
      Reply Icon

      Re: What have we learnt this week that we didn't already know or suspect?

      "when they try to try him"

      Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

      Like their going to let the PUBLIC have any say in it..yeah right.

      1 1
      1. Anonymous Coward
        Reply Icon
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: What have we learnt this week that we didn't already know or suspect?

        indeed, I'm sure they had the same attitude in Egypt didn't turn out too well there, twice...

        0 0
  14. shawnfromnh

    I get reminded

    I read a series of books when I was young by L Ron Hubbard called Mission Earth. The book revolved around an alien secret police agent who was massively corrupt chasing the hero Jettero Heller around the earth who he made the earths most wanted criminal. President Rockefeller "really" putting all earths forces behind him in his pursuit.

    It's scary how Snowden reminds me of Jettero Heller in his quest for truth and honor in this series.

    0 1
  15. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    looks like it's landing again...

    http://www.flightradar24.com/data/airplanes/fab-001

    had it on in background for a chuckle, dropped from 32000 to 2800 and falling...

    0 0
    1. Anonymous Coward
      Reply Icon
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: looks like it's landing again...

      Coming in to land at Gran Canaria. Oh to be El Presidente with your own jet.

      0 0
  16. Tony Green

    Obama leaning on other countries?

    It'll be interesting when it eventually leaks out what sort of threats Obama is making to ensure nobody gives Snowden asylum.

    "Take him and the bombers go in".

    2 1
  17. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Non-story

    apparently refueling, surprised it couldn't hold enough fuel to get from Austria to Bolivia though

    0 0
    1. Kingston Black
      Reply Icon
      Go

      Re: Non-story

      They're probably just making sure they've enough fuel to stay well clear Merkin airspace.

      1 0
    2. Florida1920
      Reply Icon
      Big Brother

      Re: Non-story

      4700-mile range. Probably refused to buy Austrian fuel.

      0 0

Page:

This topic is closed for new posts.

Other stories you might like