back to article Marks & Sparks accused of silently bonking punters over the tills

High-street socks'n'frocks chain Marks and Spencer is accused of quietly taking money from shoppers' contactless bank cards at the tills. The accusations come from Radio 4's Money Box listeners, who called in to report that M&S had billed cards in purses and handbags over the air, unbeknownst to customers who had intended to …

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  1. Kubla Cant
    Mushroom

    Bad faith

    I can see that contactless payments offer benefits for retailers because they speed up transactions and reduce cash throughput. I suppose there's a benefit for card companies because they increase card throughput. But what's in it for me?

    The BBC programme included these pathetic attempts at exculpation from a card company drone:

    "If you lose cash, it's gone, but that's not the case with a card" (nothing to do with contactless payment).

    "The most you can lose is £50" (I want a system where the most I can lose is zero).

    OK, maybe the system is really secure, and the chance of error infinitesimal. But I don't want it, and I regard the card companies' refusal to issue cards without contactless payment as evidence of bad faith.

  2. M Gale

    Perfect solution to the problem.

    A Dremel or similar miniature power tool, and a 0.2mm or finer drill bit. Give that chip a bit of air to breath, with a hole so small a cashier won't notice it.

    1. Robert E A Harvey

      Nextb week's news

      HSBarclyTSB announce ATMs will not issue cash unless the NFC is working 'for added security'.

  3. deadlift

    If this is so easy, I'd note that when I bonked my wallet against a Visa reader at the 'lympics, it was rejected because I had two NFC cards and an Oyster card therein. I reckon "Paula from London" fancied a free bra.

  4. roy lovelock

    mastercard

    i was really annoyed when my mastercard was replaced early with a contactless payment card, i work in an job where my friends have had payments taken from thier cards accidently.

    i explained this to my card supplier and they told me its an standard now with mastercard.

    the CS agent told me that any payments taken would be returned, but didnt seem to understand the agro it cause the customers when they have to change thier cards with online payments etc.

    in the end i found the nfc chip and pushed a small screwdriver though it, voila dead nfc, (fyi the chip is right next to the visible chip and pin chip in the centre of the card, you have to be careful not to damage the chip and pin contacts).

    Ive now switched my account to visa as they gave me the option. Sometimes progress is not needed or wanted, i dont ever want or need my card details be accessable by anyone with a nfc reader, i want the option to disable this useless and dangerous feature, until then i will be avoiding mastercard.

    the problems shown here by M&S just show that sometimes tech is not the answer

  5. Idocrase

    It should be obvious.

    ANY wireless technology, can, under the right circumstances operate at vastly greater ranges than advertised. often in fact, the advertised range is downplayed, Bluetooth for example only advertised as good for up to 15 feet - while I know for a fact, I can be 30 or 40 feet away in the garden with my bluetooth headphones on, and my phone sitting at my computer still sending the tunes quite happily.

    That NFC work further away than expected comes as no surprise, and there needs to be some form of warning system put up. Similar to how there used to be signs in libraries warning you to keep your credit cards away from the check in desk because the magnets could wipe them.

  6. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Inadvertent charging happening in New Zealand as well

    A local consumer affairs show, Fair Go, did a brief article on this recently where customers complained about charges to cards that hadn't been used. The card issuers denied it could happen but the receipts showed otherwise.

  7. Crusader

    World Wide issue

    A like issue was reported on New Zealand's 'Fair Go' consumer programme last week.

    Some cahp was billed 3 Coffees , 01 on his Wave Visa and 2 in his wallet Mastercard.

    I understand these are quite an issue at Airports with scanners being used , brushing up against you downloading the data and removing cash lost. The use of lead /Aluminum foil lined wallets are being used to counter these tactics. Now maybe a serious need to use such

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Some points that may be helpful

      * Merchant account is required to take payments

      * Card issuer indemnifies the user against fraud

      "cash lost" : there is no 'cash' stored in the card. The transaction is electronic, traced and takes place on a batch schedule once approved by the bank.

      Please learn how electronic payments work before crying that the sky is falling.

      "I understand these are quite an issue at Airports" [citation needed]

  8. dave 76
    Thumb Down

    in Australia...

    the transaction limit on my paypass card without requiring a pin is $100 - not sure what the daily limit is. This is the default limit.

    For those wanting to disable the NFC - here is a pic from Wikipedia showing where the antenna is: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Australia_Bank_Paypass_Card.png

  9. OzBob
    Stop

    Problem solved,...

    optic sensors at 2 corners of card, and the rfid only works when one sees light and the other sees dark (when you put your finger on the corner when holding it to swipe). Two dark sensors = in your pocket, two light sensors = not being held properly (and an audible twang when you try to swipe with two light). Simples.

    1. M Gale

      Re: Problem solved,...

      Or screw all the radio crap and shove the relevant comms through a bunch of gold-plated contacts on the card.

      Even simpler.

  10. Wayland Sothcott 1

    Astonishing stupidity

    With all this chip 'n' pin song and dance when it was introduced to keep us safe how can they justify a system which bills your card by radiowaves? It's the easiest thing in radio to improve a signal so it goes 10 times further. Someone in a disused office above the highstreet could have all sorts of gear set up to skim the cards. And people worry about the security of Bitcoin.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: "Radio signal"

      It isn't the radio signal that's important. Electromagnetic induction is required to provide power for the card. EM works on different principles to radio waves (transformer theory).

  11. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Cash is King!

  12. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Absolute rubbish

    The cards cannot be read at any distance.

    The computer systems do not by default allow payments to a greater value than the transaction to be taken.

    PEBKAC.

  13. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    After all this discussion

    There is a fairly simple solution to most people's objections.

    Card issuers: please can you fit a button to the card that I can press when I want to use it.

    It could be possible to set it, like the write-protect on an SD card maybe, for those who would like to use their cards in a permanently-enabled state?

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