No GPS in the iPad Mini Wi-Fi: People are right to criticise
Wi-Fi-only iPads have never featured GPS, but the lack of satellite-navigation tech in the new Mini fondleslab's non-cellular version has provoked a mild backlash: and rightly so, though not many people understand why. The new gizmos do have a "digital compass", a magnetometer which is aware of the direction the slab is being …
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"You neglect to mention that donwloading the almanac can take 15 minutes from cold start, that's assuming the satellite signal is good enough and uninterrupted for those 15 minutes or it can take a 'fuck of a lot' longer."
Never taken more than 1 minute to download the almanac on my SGS2.
Might take 15 minutes several stories down in an underground carpark or something I guess...
I've never used the GPS on my Nexus 7 (or my Archos 5) - why would I - I have a phone with GPS like most tablet users. And I have a cheap car holder for the phone but not for the Nexus which would blot out a lot of the view if clamped to the windscreen. I've also got a phone holder for the motorbike too.
I do use Google maps on the Nexus sometimes to look something up but WiFi location is fine for that as I'm always indoors when I use the Nexus.
I'm no Apple fan but I can't see it being an issue for the majority of users.
Apple use the GPS/GLONAS decoder in the 3G baseband chip
So the additional cost to support it in the 3G/LTE version is small. Most people who buy the WiFi only version don't take their iPad out of the house so it's a pretty fair compromise to omit the extra hardware and cost from that version. If you tether it to an iPhone however then it gets access to the iPhone's GPS chip.
So, did you really want to pay an extra £50 for a feature that most uses won't use and gets included for free in the 3G/LTE version?
Re: Apple use the GPS/GLONAS decoder in the 3G baseband chip
" If you tether it to an iPhone however then it gets access to the iPhone's GPS chip."
Since when?
https://discussions.apple.com/thread/3810027?start=0&tstart=0
http://johnmarshall4.tumblr.com/post/4061084217/debunking-the-wi-fi-only-ipad-tethered-iphone-4-gps
Hasn't worked since day 1, despite what daring firebollocks said.
Re: Apple use the GPS/GLONAS decoder in the 3G baseband chip
Well if you tether an iPod touch or iPad to an Android phone, the wifi location service will give you a very accurate location fix. It doesn't update quite as frequently as using GPS directly, so if you are on a train for example, the location will update maybe every 30 seconds or so. That may not be good enough for turn by turn navigation, but good enough for getting walking or public transport directions. However, what with the new Apple maps and the fact that wifi tethering will most likely drain your Android's battery faster than you can recharge it, you are as well just getting that from the Android directly
Re: Apple use the GPS/GLONAS decoder in the 3G baseband chip
"So, did you really want to pay an extra £50 for a feature that most uses won't use and gets included for free in the 3G/LTE version?"
Where does a GPS chip cost 50 quid? They are a buck or 2 at a component level, that's why $200 Androids have GPS in them.
for some balance...
On the subject of phone manufacturers being evil, Apple certainly aren't alone.
I recently discovered my HTC Sensation XE doesn't actually support GLONASS, even though it's enabled in the chip, the radio firmware (which I'm not about to start messing with) is ignoring the perfectly good signals from 24 satellites (nearly half), for no particular reason I can work out.
Compare to the wife's Samsung which quite happily picks up signals from both sets of satellites.
What. Ever.
Apple have successful device, X, that lacks feature Y because the chipset necessary to support it is not included in that device.
Apple make smaller, cheaper version of device X that also lacks feature Y.
Apple is therefore evil.
Honestly, Lewis, do you have anything useful to say anymore?
Apple does reluctantly fit GPS in its devices which have cellular data connections, as cell-tower signals are long ranging and thus are likely not to offer any position information of any use - and people would notice if they could get an online map but not locate themselves on it.
Err.. no. That has more to do with the US laws on E-911 than any nonsense about the ability to get maps. Maps don't take a lot of space and can simply be downloaded in advance. The satnav in my glove compartment has street-level mapping for the whole of Europe and the only connectivity it has is a USB port. The premises this article are based on are completely wide of the mark.
Why would anyone have a 3G tablet at all??
I've never understood why anyone would want a 3G tablet at all... doesn't everyone have a phone with a 3G data connection about their person already? Why on *earth* would I want to pay much more for the 3G version of the tablet, buy another SIM and pay for another data plan!?!?
I have a WiFi Xoom (which has GPS), use my HTC Desire as a personal WiFi hotspot... and couldn't imagine any other sensible way of doing it...
Is it really just me that does this?
Re: Why would anyone have a 3G tablet at all??
Have an up-vote, ab-so-bloody-lutely.
The only reason I can see for getting a data enabled tablet, is if someone else is paying for the sim for data use. Ala work email on a byod.
Other than that, you pay for the date on one device, and share it, not put your data into two pots, both of which you're paying for!
On the subject of no GPS, I assume the kindle fire hd will get a slating, as that doesn't have gps either and the nexus does...
Re: Why would anyone have a 3G tablet at all??
3G tablet is for the GPS, innit.
Also, I like to use my phone to make phone calls, not be a modem for my tablet. There is no quicker way to drain the battery than to use a phone as an AP. This might be fine to check email on the train on the way home, its fucking useless if you are in a field for a weekend and want your batteries to last as long as possible, not to accidentally drain your phone battery.
Re: Why would anyone have a 3G tablet at all??
Err because my phone is a nokia 1800 without any of that 3G stuff though it does have a nice long standby time and its cheap to run. I'm only paying for one data plan - the specific one for my tablet. I've never seen the point of the fancy 3G phones with small screens. Each to their own I say.
Oh the ignorance
Location services on mobile devices is only fast and widespread because it's Assisted GPS, i.e. it doesn't just rely on GPS it needs WiFi or cell triangulation as well.
Without that extra information GPS performance ranges for poor - in urban environments with tall buildings, trees etc to - non-existent when indoors. Yes, the Nexus 7 has a GPS but it's hard to get a position fix from it in those conditions, most of the time you get "searching for GPS".... not useful at all.
So why include a GPS that only works properly under clear sky or ideal conditions and not every time - as people expect it to? Just for the sake of checking a spec sheet, or to waste more battery?
This is typical Apple, if some hardware doesn't work as expected it's not added in. People who need it can then buy the version which includes all the bits that let it work properly.
Re: Oh the ignorance
Oh the ignorance squared, just taken my Nexus 7 through Shepherd's Bush, and rather than getting "searching for GPS", I was getting a lock within about 2m remarkably quickly.
I would rather have the N7's GPS chip in my phone instead of its aGPS any day.
Don't forget Microsoft's Surface RT...
...that shiny new tablet from Microsoft? Wifi only? The one with no GPS either... are they also evil incarnate?
Also, would love to see the evidence for the statement: "Apple does *reluctantly* fit GPS in its devices" - on what basis is it reluctant? Having GPS allows it to sell satnav applications (typically high-value) in its AppStore. and take a 30% cut of the price...
I agree that GPS should be standard on all tablets, but I think it's a bit of a stretch to say it's evil not to have it, when it's probably just product differentiation, to be able to charge more for the cellular version!
Re: Don't forget Microsoft's Surface RT...
> The one with no GPS either... are they also evil incarnate?
Yes.
HTH, HAND, etc.
Vic.
"...a magnetometer which is aware of the direction the slab is being pointed but not it's location..."
That would be "...its location..." then
That is all
That's a pretty neat trick, as far as I'm aware the only way to know a location from direction is if you have an exact fix on the point of origin and speed as well, even then navigation and calculated location is subject to drift from things like magnetic variation, rounding errors etc which are all cumulative over time and result in huge inaccuracies in the location data which may explain a thing or two about their mapping software...
He was pointing out that 'Its' should have been used rather than 'It's'...
He did, however, omit the requisite full stops from his own post.
Or you could just go get a device that runs nokia maps that you "can" download for offline useage!!! e.g. Lumia anything........
Yep, that's Apple
Spend more, get less. And still the fanboys will try and tell you that 2 + 2 =5 simple because of the "apple" logo.
Sorry about the plug for Navfree - but is is free, on your phone and no 3G charges!
Having gone through this thread I am amazed that nobody has plugged the free map downloads from Navfree
http://www.navmii.com/
Speaking as a cheapskate, I have a pay-as-you-go iPhone 4 and am very wary of paying for 3G charges in the UK let alone abroad.
Navfree works well in the UK and was a godsend when I was trying to return a rental car to some godforsaken garage in the middle of a French town during their rush hour
OK, you have to download it in advance, and it can get lost in the boonies, but most of the time it is a fantastic bit of free software. Certainly saved my nerves and collision damage excess
"...insultingly poor opinion of its customers' tech savvy."
Um....have you ever tried to talk tech with an average Apple customer? Judging from the ones I know the phrase 'tech savvy' doesn't really apply.
(Yes, I know there are tech savvy Apple users, especially here on El Reg, but you're all well above the curve and you darn well know it.)
Am I the only person here that actually knows where they are going, route & all before I leave my house?
I can read a map, I know the difference between grid, true & magnetic north. Hell, I could navigate across Mongolia using a watch.
until recently
I think I have had a minor stroke.
As long as I could remember, up until 2010, I always knew where North was. In a locked room you could say "where is North" and I would point to it within 10 or 15 degrees. Then one day in a tent in Zambia I woke up having no idea at all where the sun would rise. It was terrifying.
I now carry a compass, but have noticed a lot of strange adaptations. Previously I could drive on the continent without bother. I now appear to automatically transpose left and right in my mind in order to do so. I noticed that on reading a sign in Groningen to use the East bypass, I turned toward the west. So both left turns and left-and-right on the map have been transposed. It's weird.
I can still navigate without GPS, but have come to use car sat-navs in unfamiliar places rather like old people have cookers with giant knobs - for comfort, not because it is essential.
Oh, and Mongolia is easy. Few roads, relatively flat landscape, good recognisable peaks on the skyline. And no woods. (the watch trick is a bit of a bugger when it is snowing heavily, mind) I recently got hopelessly lost in a 5 acre wood I have been walking my dogs through for 30 years. Had to go right out, work out where I was from the sunlight, and walk round the perimiter to somewhere obvious. (didn't need a GPS for that either)
Re: until recently
"I now carry a compass, but have noticed a lot of strange adaptations. Previously I could drive on the continent without bother"
I actually have one of those "small enough to go on a watch band" efforts on my keyring. I'll admit that it's less to do with navigation than being able to know where the light will be, mind, for photographic wossnames. I was shocked at how shonky and inaccurate the electronic equivalents were in various smartthings that I own.
Accidentally, however, it has proven to be a Bobsend a few times while navigating a strange city with a free (rubbish) map. That said, now I try to download Open Streetmap data for cities before visiting, after the horror of Torino with a free hotel map..
"Online only maps"
'cmon, get a grip, Google Maps has had a "Download map" function for months, works fine on a HP Touchpad running ICS, also no GPS on board, but a BT external GPS logger.
Cheep cheep.....
GPS is a free feature that comes with mobile phone chipsets these days.
If you are using wifi only then you aren't going to get it, simples!
"If you are using wifi only then you aren't going to get it, simples!"
Unless you bother to buy a wifi-only device which has a GPS receiver in it, "simples".
GPS is justfeature!
Like NFC, HDMI, SD cards, DLNA , USB drag and drop.
Just features which some have, some don't have.
GPS?
I've heard of it. I've rarely bothered with it. I've driven from London to Rome with nothing but a list of major town / city names to look out for on the way. (From Calais, follow signs for Paris. As soon as you see signs for Bruxelles, follow those. As soon as you see signs for Luxembourg… and so on. All the way to Rome. No GPS. Not even an up-to-date Europe-wide map.) I did get slightly lost near Strasbourg thanks to some major road works, but that only set me back a few minutes.
I find I can navigate just fine using those "signpost" thingies that every bugger else appears to ignore.
I've known people who swear by GPS navigation, but these same people often regale me with tales of how their GPS "failed" them by sending them the wrong way down one-way streets, ignoring the existence of new, much better, roads, and so on. What boggles the mind is that, in many cases, these people must have deliberately ignored signage that would have avoided the problem entirely. GPS was meant to be an aid to your own navigation skills, not a complete replacement for them.
Google's mapping data is no better – and often quite a bit worse – in this neck of the woods. TomTom's database at least labels the roads correctly, instead of suggesting that the main route to Viterbo isn't to take the nice, quick, series of bypasses built and opened over the past decade or so, but to drive instead right through the centres of no less than three medieval towns, all of which have dangerous hairpin bends and even some 20%+ gradients.
But this anecdata does not count as "evidence". For every "Google Maps is way more accurate than Apple's" anecdote, there will be one that suggests otherwise.
This is not a winnable argument.
Journalists this very well. Hence their trolling. Yes, this very article is a troll. Comment threads like these are exactly what they – and their advertisers – want. And we've all fallen for it.
I do hope The Register finds a better way to keep the money coming in. Click-based advertising is clearly affecting the quality of the content for the worse. I think I'd prefer it if they went with dedicated section sponsors (with the proviso that said sponsors have no editorial control).
Re: GPS?
Weird route to Rome, and certainly not the quickest. Does that route avoid toll road, too?
'Reluctant' GPS
"Apple does reluctantly fit GPS in its devices which have cellular data connections, "
Can you explain how you know that Apple 'reluctantly' fits GPS into its cellular devices?
Perhaps you were in a meeting back in the day with Steve Jobs et al and witnessed something we didn't?
Or are you, as I suspect, bullshitting for dramatic effect?
My wifi only iPad 2 has GPS. Also, there is a reason to use it with online maps. I have a wifi 3g modem (much better than paying for a contract that I can only use on my iPad) but even if I didn't, I could use my phone as a hotspot.
You are right. For some reason I thought it had because the location services seemed to work well but now I have checked, I find that I was mistaken? You live and learn.
The iPad Mini and the Nexus 7 are close enough to be compared. Apple wins on screen size, and has the double camera, and people I know say that the aesthetics of the Apps are better on Apple kit. The Nexus 7 has more pixels, and GPS.
Not committed to either, I think the lower price of the Nexus 7 would tip the balance for me, but if you already have Apple kit, the price premium is worth it to stay compatible. Though it you want GPS, it wouldn't be so easy.
I wouldn't rush to buy a Nexus 7 until the rumoured 32GB version comes out, and we see what that does to prices. I think that people do forget what the costs of changing can be, and what their time is worth. But there is the difference between the already captured, and the new customers. Some people will want GPS. Some people will read the stories about how Amazon behaves, and wonder who they should do business with. And some people will stick with whatever they have already chosen.
"I wouldn't rush to buy a Nexus 7 until the rumoured 32GB version comes out, and we see what that does to prices. I think that people do forget what the costs of changing can be, and what their time is worth."
Indeed.
Mind, I did rush, and I am very happy. However, I do have stuff on both Android and iOS, so could hit the ground running with useful apps in either ecosystem. I think you tacitly make a good point though- that should be a factor for some people.
Rotten Apple
Wow - no GPS. Poor display. 2nd rate hardware. Yuck. I would have bought one if it had been any good, because that's what I do. I buy a new gadget many times a year. Funny how the iPad Mini isn't on the list...
But I'm also presently pretty turned-off to Apple as a brand. Here's why. I was walking around our recently-opened local Apple Store for the first time, and one thing struck me more than anything else. Amongst the chatter, I kept overhearing the same phrase over and over again...
"I'm sorry, there's nothing we can do."
I heard this exact phrase three or four times in about 15 minutes. The crestfallen punter would then slide his reassuringly-expensive but defective laptop back into his backpack, wipe away his tears, and then shuffle out to consider his eventual suicide options.
This observation shocked me to my core. Apple appears to be the exact opposite of what it is supposed to be.
The only similar thing I've read about is how the Mercedes Smart car has a sealed engine that cannot be repaired, only replaced as a unit at a cost that is higher than the value of the car itself.
These are examples of such weirdly perverted policy that I find myself disoriented.
The device "guesses" where it is by sniffing for nearby WiFi base stations
I guess this perfectly matches Apple's Crappy Map App and relies on the theory two guesses DO make a right.
It's in the chipset
GPS is built-in to the cellular data chipset in the models that have cellular data. Non-cellular models don't have the cellular data chips, so no GPS.
I wonder why Apple didn't put the cellular chips in them all, then charge £50 to over-the-air enable hardware you've already paid for? Same with flash memory - put 64Gb in them all, then charge to enable anything over 16Gb. They'd save because they are only building one model, they just need to be set up with whatever's been paid for on the way out of the door, and can be reconfigured on the fly.
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