@h4rm0ny

AC was citing WP7. And I've tried the preview. And I've just DLed the WZOR RTM to see what the final version's like.

Re: @h4rm0ny

I'm not going to go into this at any length, which would be repeating what others have already said. Okay, I installed the RTM this am. I just got back into 7 and deleted it. If it boots any faster than Win7 on this SATA-600 RAID0 setup, the difference is too small to notice.

I want the option of a Classic UI. I want the Start Menu, and the way I want it, like I have done since Windows 95, because that is the way to me it is intuitive, as opposed to grating. There is no 'getting used to it'; there is what works for different people, depending on a whole spectrum of personality types, and possibly even disorders. You know something? I can't abide the sound and feel of my footsteps in thick snow; it is up there with squeaky balloons or scraping fingernails down a blackboard (if such things even exist anymore!). Some people aren't bothered by some or all of these things, and I've never heard of _anyone_ else bothered by scrunching snow! To fail to appreciate this I suspect falls somewhere on the autistic spectrum. Plenty of others have said what is wrong with the 'Metro' interface and I'm not going to repeat it here, but it grates!

The deliberately removing the option of a Classic UI is more crass than Mozilla's removing the xpinstall functionality from about:config.

I'll grant it is only slightly annoying spending too long trying to figure out how to restart or shut the fupping thing down.

Presumably a bug is the fact that, once enabling the piss poor excuse for a menu from the 'file explorer' (sic), you apparently can't disable it (which one would want to having discovered how weak it is).

Here's a good one! In the Group Policy Editor is an option to use a different 'file explorer' (sick), so I pointed it at Explorer.exe in the Win7 volume - after which the desktop simply wouldn't load! Now, I don't recall seeing that option before, so it looks like a new one for Windows 8. I had to get Task Manager up to run Disk Management in order to set the Win7 volume active and get back to here.

Those who know me will know how scathing I've been over the years about Linux distros and Windows 8 appears to have caught up with Linux! I guess at MS these days that's what they're trying to replicate. With Linux you'd have to boot to a command line to restore the desktop, which whether one is or isn't capable of doing so, the fact that you have to is a game ender. But I'd rather have any Linux distro over Windows 8. I feel like I must've gone through the looking glass. I would install Kubuntu to the now empty disk space if I didn't have to jump through hoops to get it to install to a RAID array.

Re: No need to wait.

"My main gripe with Win8 is: take away the new "Windows 8 user interface" which was formerly known as Metro and what do you have left ?"

It boots faster. Also runs faster. They've refined the built-in software RAID and you can actually do chkdisk drive repairs on a volume whilst it's mounted. It's better for multi-monitor (handles different sized monitors more comfortably, better thought out in how you can manage them - e.g. I no longer have to move my mouse pointer all the way across two or more 24" monitors to get to the "Start" button. It neatly integrates with Cloud services (and that's not Skydrive in my case, I'm setting up a private cloud). It's got a superb performance management tool. It's got a built in File History tool to go back in time on files. There's streamlined profile management with far greater granularity over what is and isn't allowed, e.g. if you want to set up accounts for your children (site whitellsting, usage limits, monitoring, etc.). For businesses, you can install software based around an authentication key so that when they are connected to your VPN or on site, the software is "installed" and when not, it is invisible. In fact, the BYOD work they've put into it is really nice all round. Better default IPv6 handling. They've re-written a lot of the graphics handling so you get better performance and on laptops, it uses less power. They've redone various parts such as the File Manager (no more faffing around when you want to show Hidden files - you just flip them). The Task Manager is now something far more impressive. The Security Essentials stuff is now no longer a separate thing you have to go and get but something built in. Native SVG handling...

Not sure what you're interested in. But basically there's a lot of refinement and new things in Win8 and it's going to be the platform going forward. The new UI is obviously the most visible part, but it's far from the only part. And you did ask.

Reply (Part One)

"Thanks for your extensive response, appreciate the time you took."

No problem. I am always happy to debate with someone who is open to it. You've gone through my list and identified why a number of the advantages are not of interest to you. That's fine. I listed some of the things I could think of from the top of my head because even though you may not need something, it's useful to many others and makes the point that Windows 8 is far from just a new UI which is kind of where you were coming from. That said, I'm rather amazed you got from the long list I wrote down to

"So summing up the main enhancements which I can see are better IPv6 support, easier option to check for hidden files in the Explorer and the inclusion of security essentials."

In all honesty, it makes me want to ask if you can honestly say with your hand on your heart that you weren't trying to dismiss things from my list. No offence meant. But anyway, to answer your own points...

"Faster booting - This is a bit of a hack because in fact the OS uses a section of the disk where it hibernates the OS then simply re-activates that part. Quite frankly; I can do the exact same thing on Windows 7 is I tell it not to shut down but to hibernate"

You've not quite got how it works - it is different to hibernation on Windows 7. In Windows 8, they have separated out the hibernation of the kernel from the application space. My main workstation has 12GB of RAM and I run a lot of programs sometimes. Even if I close my applications down in preparation, it still takes a while to hibernate my machine. Shutting down and re-starting Win8 is not the same as Win7 hibernation. It takes the kernel and some essential parts, and hibernates that. The result is that it shuts down and restarts like lightning. The point is that on Win7, hibernating doesn't save me any time over just shutting the machine down. Win8 is simply massively faster here and Win7 hibernation doesn't compete.

"The 'runs faster' is also disputable considering how much options and eye candy they stripped from parts such as the desktop. If I minimize the visual effects (turn off aero, animations, translucency) I can get my Win7 to run a whole lot faster as well."

Again, you're arguing that you can by doing certain things *make* Win7 as fast as Win8 is by default. It's still a big advantage for many. Though your premise isn't quite right. Win8 also performs faster at non-UI tasks, but I'll address that later otherwise I'm repeating myself.

"chkdsk repairs on a soft-raid volume while its mounted - I can do that with Win7 as well. Unless of course its the system volume, but quite frankly I don't see being able to perform repairs on a mounted and used system volume as an enhancement. I consider this a major risk factor instead"

Firstly, I didn't say carrying them out on a "soft-raid". I just said a mounted volume. That can be any mounted volume and yes - including a System volume. You're comparing it to Re-syncing etc. in Win7. That's not what I'm talking about per se. I'm saying that when you have a disk fault (you must have seen those blue screens where it says "Checking Disk 43% complete" after a power-failure or disk failure). These can typically complete in under two seconds now. That's even faster than my Debian system. And yes - it is useful to be able repair a system disk whilst running, depending on what services your machine is running.

"Multi monitor - Can't comment there since I only use one. What I can say is that it could be expected considering that they've limited the features severely in other areas. Think about running two "TIFKAM" (The Interface Formerly Known As Metro) side by side. Can't be done on lower resolutions, even if those are still pretty common for Office use."

I'm really confused as to what you are referring to here with "can't be done on lower resolutions", so you're going to have to clarify. I think before that you're saying that you think Multi-monitor support is better because of lighter load due to the lighter UI. I suppose that could be a factor if you have a very low-power machine, but it's really nothing to do with it. I'm talking about actual changes, not performance. E.g. when I have three 24" monitors set up, it takes a long time to move the mouse over to the "Start" button in Windows 7. In Win8, I can easily access it by the mouse (as well as the program tabs) on any monitor. Ditto for the settings menu (which you don't have in Win7 as such). I can easily configure different backgrounds for the monitors, it handles different resolutions of different monitors simultaneously whereas in Win7 that can be problematic. It's all round significantly improved. You say you only have one monitor, fine - not a plus for you, but many of us are used to using multiple monitors these days - particularly developers who want to use VMs for development or testing, but also graphics professionals, people who want communications in one window (mail, VoIP) and work in the other.

(continued)

Reply (Part Two)

"Cloud services - What does "integrates neatly" exactly mean? If I want to I can easily setup my Win7 Explorer so that it can directly access stuff as SkyDrive, S3 buckets and dropbox if need be (mostly using Webdav btw). Within my Office environment I already have the option to directly store documents on SkyDrive"

Hard to put my finger on it. I guess whilst what you list as things you "can" do, they're all things that are streamlined and really, really easy for the casual user to use in Win8. E.g. when I click Save, it has panels for whether I want to save locally, online and very visible and easy control over who I do and don't want to share things with, all from within the program and OS. It's just... slick, really. All feels very natural and under your control. All I can suggest is that you try it. For corporate use, it's *much* easier. You can configure the cloud and its permissions very easily for any systems you deploy. But that's getting into Server 2012 so I'll stop there.

"Performance management tool - Does it really?"

Yes. Really. I don't know what you're calling bells and whistles, probably things like the colour coding on processes so you can see their resource levels at a glance and the way you can pull up online descriptions of a process so you can identify what it is, but those things are useful even if they're only time savers. But there are also things that aren't just time savers, like grouping the processes by application, by type; or handling 64 logical processors and the heat map. Even a real curmudgeon has to concede this is cool.

And yes, you mention the Assessment and Deployment tool. Maybe it does incorporate stuff from elsewhere, but I'm fine with that. It's a powerful performance tool that is now mainstream and has an API so people can build useful tools on top of it. So what if it's an iterative improvement rather than something completely new - most things are built on something else. This comment is my answer to how you can do some of this already in Powershell. Sure, and I'm comfortable on Powershell because I grew up on Bash. But you use this to dismiss things as just "making it easier to access" (your words), but that's a really good thing in itself for everyone who isn't you or me.

"File history tool - Uhm, that has been around since Vista. Check properties, then "Previous versions" tab. Better yet: the Win8 "feature" requires an external drive or network share to work (its disabled by default) whereas this feature in Vista & Win7 is on by default and doesn't require anything extra. Talk about taking a step back in user friendlyness!"

No, trust me. I have used the new one, and I get the strong impression from the number of misunderstandings that you are primarily looking up information on this second hand. It is easier in Win8, no doubt about it. Also doesn't impact other running processes whilst it's active either like previous versions. I'm not sure if you have to use it with an remote or external volume. I think that's just the (rightly) recommended approach. I can't check as I'm not on the Win8 one at the moment. At any rate, I don't personally know anyone who ever used the Vista history functionality. But with the Win8 one which is much more user-friendly, they will.

Re: Reply (Part Two)

"Profile management - Enter Windows 7 professional. Its not possible on the home editions, but the pro has no problems with this"

Again, you're not actually familiar with the Win8 functionality. (I am currently in Win7 Pro as I type, incidentally). The Win7 controls let you set some basic time limits, control games by rating or title and allow or block specific profiles.

In Windows8, you can monitor the complete activity of the user, select from convenient drop-down lists for web-site categories, communication types allowed (e.g. social networking, chatrooms), stats reports on how the child used the computer. Basically everything you could possibly want to make your kid hate you.

"Software based on authentication keys - Idem on Windows 7. Takes external tools to setup though but its doable. Especially considering that Win7 already provides native support for stuff such as RFID security cards."

Again, you're comparing a car from the 1970's with a modern one and saying you can do the same things, ignoring that it is so much easier and more elegant in the newer ones. If you're corporate, you build the software into the users profile on your network and set the permissions. They bring in their laptop and plug it in - program installed. They disconnect and go home - the program was never there (figuratively speaking).

"Better graphics - Its still the drivers doing all the work."

And the OS determining what work they do. This comment more than any of the others, suggests to me you don't actually know much about this area. For HTML5 and SVG rendering (which forms a core part of the UI in Win8), it can render pages up to 400% faster than WIn7. Check out this video and note how much faster and more smoothly it scrolls though a web-page. Also they've worked on JPG and PNG rendering. Notice how in the video, Win8 goes through a lot faster.

Video

None of this is directly attributable to the graphics drivers. It's OS level stuff.

"Better performance - So far I'm not a believer. Also see an earlier point about performance aspects in Win7."

Well pretty much every bit of testing I've seen from the Benchers says otherwise.

I'm out of time now. So let me just say that I think you asked a loaded question in the first place by saying 'apart from the UI, what actually is there?' I've answered that question and shown there's actually a lot in there. And there are probably lots of other things I hadn't thought of. I've just remembered that hand-writing recognition is supposed to be improved (which is great for the upcoming stylus machines) for example. I'm sure there's more. But the new UI has a huge amount of good stuff both in it, and in assisting developers in getting the most out of it. You can use HTML5 and Javascript for your program interfaces, there are APIs to handle menuing and graphics at different screen sizes and resolutions manually. It's more secure (particularly for example the new Web applications model in Office over the old chunks of VBA).

Okay. I'm done. How open-minded are you feelling or did you read all the above with a mental check list of how you could counter any points I made. ;)

Re: STOP SAYING METRO!!!!!!!!

Metro.

Re: STOP SAYING METRO!!!!!!!!

'Modern' is a laughable misnomer for Bob 2.0.

And you know it.

Re: STOP SAYING METRO!!!!!!!!

As Metro as Steven Sinofsky's fashion sense.

Redmond haute couture.

Re: STOP SAYING METRO!!!!!!!!

Jehova ! Jehova ! Jehova !

@Larry

Agreed.

We should all be calling it TIFKAM from now (as seen earlier in this thread, and I don't refer to my post btw).

"The Interface Formerly Known As Metro".

Re: STOP SAYING METRO!!!!!!!!

Metro, Metro, Metro! And of course, Windows, Windows, Windows!

Re: 2 camps

I've given it a 'blast'.

http://i47.tinypic.com/34eakwl.png

http://i46.tinypic.com/2chswaq.png

Re: 2 camps

3) People who have tried it, and found it to be an utter piece of turd.

Re: 2 camps

My productivity dropped when I tried to do my normal work on it. What more do I need? Fancy anecdotes? Factual benchmarks? Finding some reason for it? No. It dropped, and I couldn't get it back to XP-levels even with a hell of a lot of messing about.

Hell, compared to a properly organised XP "classic" menu, it takes me twice as long to find a program using the silly narrow-down search when I have hardly any programs installed at all. I need to get to dialogs inside control panel and other weird places and get there a lot on a lot of machines that may be configured differently and get there every time, consistently. I can't. Same reasons I rejected "Unity" or whatever it's called on Ubuntu. That, similarly, saw a single test and then went into the bin. Ironically, I now use Ubuntu LTS for server text-mode-only installs and Slackware for desktop installs.

I don't use the Metro interface. At all. I spent more time trying to get rid of it than I did using it (and you can't get rid of it permanently, which is literally a one-line code enforcement at MS for no sensible reason). Just because others might find it useful, I just find it getting in my way and making even more things take even more clicks to do than before (and I even tried it on a touchscreen!). Guess what? People work differently. You might love Metro, to me it's an extension of everything I hate about modern "desktops". I'd rather have an ugly, blocky, square, bland interface than all that junk. Hence why people call it "Fisher Price", etc. Yeah, looks really pretty. But I can't get used to using it and never have since XP.

Windows 8 boots fast and shuts down fast, that's about it. Everything else is just natural evolution (e.g. driver support built-in for more things, new types of technology support, etc.) and is pretty much Windows 7. The number of boots/shutdowns I do is absolutely minimal since standby became a stable solution in XP, so even the boot times mean NOTHING any more (and if I was that worried, I'd use an SSD).

Productivity costs. I don't *want* to train on an interface. I want it to work. When I do train on an interface, I expect to see the gains in productivity. I haven't, since XP. In fact, since then every Office and Windows has made me less productive. Ribbon toolbar and contextual junk is NOT FOR ME. I can't stand it. I want to turn it off. I hate suggestions that LibreOffice might try to go that way in the future. It's stupid and ridiculous and kills my productivity with unpredictability. But MS can't be bothered to give me an option and tell me I "must" do it this way.

These interfaces GET IN MY WAY. They STOP ME INTERFACING in certain ways. They MAKE INTERFACING DIFFICULT. No amount of training provides consistency in some parts of the interface (i.e. the narrow-down search changes depending on what you have installed!). Dialogs that I've been able to get to in two-three clicks for years (and not got in anyone's else's way) I now have to know magic incantations for, or go around the houses in non-obvious ways to get to the same point.

I can't remember what I was doing but it was something quite trivial like checking an IP address, finding a MAC address and then changing it to a static IP to do something. It took me longer to figure out than imaging the machine had. And it was such a convoluted way around because MS just wanted to hide that information and options from the administrator user. Hell, I know you don't tinker with that every day, but when you do it's nice to be able to find it.

Technically, Windows XP through to 8 have been good. They run pretty much the same programs, work on lots of hardware, each has their niggles but they get the job done technically. Usability-wise, they get worse and worse (and now Ubuntu is following suit). If you cater to the dumb user, you'll only get dumb users. Dumb users rarely make the call on what gets installed across sites or in companies of hundreds of employees, because they DON'T have to manage the machines and do the things that technical people do.

Honestly, from a personal perspective, I still use XP for purely usability reasons. If I'm "forced" onto other OS in the future, I'll just go Linux, because I *can* configure it how I like, use what start menu I like, use what desktop environment I like, and use an Office suite that doesn't force me to use ribbons and other rubbish (even if I have to stick with an old version of it). It's literally that important that I be able to get to options, right-click menus (which seem to have disappeared in Ubuntu's new interface, for example), technical details, etc. that I will sacrifice Windows compatibility for it. Work is a different matter but the same things will affect the same decisions.

Now, I work in schools, so also a problem is "small children". Get your child to run a program that's not on the desktop. Hope they can read and type the full, correct spelling of the program because otherwise you'll have to clutter their desktop with EVERYTHING they want to use! Get them to all write a letter as a group. They will ALL end up with different menu options in Office depending what stage they get to. It's not ideal.

Seriously - turn off the "#ifdef METRO, splat_metro_screen_over_desktop", re-enable the old Start Menu for those who want it, and get rid of any transparency, side-bar (god, that's annoying, especially when you hover near the right on a touchscreen), and all the other crap.

My desktop and start menu are my program launch interface. This destroys them. The other junk just pops things up unnecessarily all the time and gets in my way (hell, I had to answer a question about which browser I want to use on first logon now, as if it wasn't obnoxious enough when they pushed that through Windows Update). Gimme a desktop that's "dumb" and inactive. It shows me program icons, runs those programs when I click them and gets the HELL OUT OF MY WAY so I can use what I bought the machines for - running programs. Every time you hide something away, you are getting in my way. Every time you don't show full options, you are getting in my way. Every time there's ANOTHER step in the way I do things, you are getting in my way.

Seriously, the first person to bring up a minimalist interface on something that can run Windows apps will be a billionaire. I want to choose what happens on my own desktop (i.e. NOTHING should pop up and steal keyboard focus EVER). Apparently, that's not allowed. And, until it is, I won't be using it.

Re: 2 camps

Lee Dowling: Emerge Desktop + Launchy + VistaSwitcher + xplorer2 = any version of Windows*, made minimalist. (*I haven't tried 8 yet, but why would I?)

Re: The irony is

And there's no reason Linux shouldn't copy it. Linux has always taken good features from other OSes and incorporated them, along with adding its own good stuff. Standing on the shoulders of giants, etc. All these OSes influence and drive each other to improve. What will be really funny is when Apple copy things from it. There's a certain core of Apple users that will really struggle with that.

Re: The irony is

"BIG DUMB GUY 555, is that you?"

I think it is - smells of troll. In either case, the same sort of inflammatory, divisive statements. I wonder if El Reg can check the IP addresses or something?

Re: So many microsoft-phobes

Still not as many astroturfer shills such as you, who get into a pissy fit when it is pointed out that your emperor (Microsoft/Windows 8) has no clothes.

"How dare you tell the truth you Microsoft hater/basher!"

Re: MSDN, TechNet keys?

" I'd take Windows 8 for free, I wouldn't buy it." - That's what I thought about Vista. I still have the free copy. Used Vista through most of the beta program. Went back to XP after. Got the free Vista copy after Win 7 was out and had XP, 7 and Vista installed. Eventually I thought wtf am I keeping this on here for and deleted it. I found Vista interesting in the beta period, but once that was past loathed it. But nothing like as much as I loathe that Metro interface. I like XP and 7.

I like KDE too, and loathe Gnome.