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back to article Apple pounces on Samsung doc as proof of 'slavish copy' claims

Apple presented a massive 132-page internal Samsung document that showed the South Korean firm comparing every inch of the iPhone with its early Galaxy S phone in its patent ruckus yesterday. The internal Samsung report, translated from Korean, goes over every aspect of the iPhone and looks at how the equivalent feature of the …

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    1. Anonymous Coward
      Reply Icon
      Anonymous Coward

      paid witness

      Yeah I don't get the "paid witnesses" thing either and don't really agree with it but to be fair, she's actually being paid $550p/h (mentioned elsewhere) which compared to what the lawyers on both sides are being paid for their work, is likely tiny by comparison.

      I guess you have to factor in the idea that she is ONLY actually there at the 'request' of the Apple legal team as their idea of a "design expert", it's not like she was ever a neutral judge/court appointed witness to begin with.

      She also has to actually "earn" her money by appearing both credible and not taking hypocritical personal attacks on her credibility/honesty by opposition lawyers personally, which wouldn't be easy when you know the same people attacking your credibility would not only do and say ANYTHING for a buck themselves but also have a vested financial interest in keeping this trial going on as long as possible.

      As a jury member on this case you'd have to assume (and likely will/should have it pointed out to you by both legal teams) that all witnesses either side ends up presenting are on similar sorts of payment schemes.

      The Samsung Lawyer might think they are clever attacking her credibility based on her "payment" but you'll now probably find the Apple legal team asking the same "payment" questions and getting the same answers from Samsung designated "expert witnesses" so neither side is likely going to benefit from the exposure of "payments", it'll just lead to further juror confusion and end up causing the case to run longer, which surprise surprise suits nobody but the lawyers billing at an hourly rate.

      The ones I feel sorry for are the jurors (and potentially their employers) who are paid an absolute bare minimum for their time and service, if they're lucky enough to work for an understanding employer, the employer of the juror ends up having to pay/cover them for work they are not doing while in court.

      It ends up being jurors, other companies and taxpayers who end up "footing the bill" for this battle between two large corporations who, considering the battle is all about honesty and credibility, BOTH actually lack, and have proven time and time again, to lack a whole lot of credibility and honesty themselves.

      It's the price society pays to protect Intellectual property rights, whether it is actually worth it or not is still up for debate and far more complex and far reaching than one APPLE vs SAMSUNG case.

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    2. JEDIDIAH
      Reply Icon
      Linux

      It gets even better.

      > Is it legal to pay witnesses in the USA?

      In the US there's really no way to get around it. You want someone to speak on your behalf, you have to pay them for the opportunity cost involved. This can get quite painful sometimes and may make some types of litigation infeasible for all but the largest "mills".

      $1000 an hour for an expert in a US trial is pretty standard.

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  2. gort
    Boffin

    The main point that came out in the cross-examination of Kare was that she was only commenting on the comparison between the Apple home screen and the Samsung app drawer, which is not the Samsung's default home screen. This is something Apple always gets away with in photos.

    Samsung's lawyer made the point that a user would have to go through a boot screen with a giant glowing "Samsung" logo, a distinctive lock screen with puzzle pieces, and a home screen with widgets and a big Google search box, before pressing the Applications button to get to the app drawer, which does have icons for all the apps on the phone arranged in a grid.

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    1. TheOtherHobbes
      Reply Icon

      Well yes

      But apart from that they're similar enough to fool a former Apple employee and UI consultant.

      I don't think the case is doing either side any favours. It makes Samsung look fools and it makes Apple look like pompous mean-spirited bullies.

      Still - that's lawyers for you.

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      1. Adam-the-Kiwi
        Reply Icon
        Headmaster

        Re: Well yes

        Lawyer. n: Someone who tries to prevent anyone else getting hold of your money.

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        1. peter 45
          Reply Icon
          Happy

          Re: Well yes

          Your full stop came too early.

          Lawyer. n: Someone who tries to prevent anyone else getting hold of your money...........by taking all of it away from you.

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    2. Anonymous Coward
      Reply Icon
      Anonymous Coward

      With icons arranged like about any gui setup on a computer.... evenly spaced and defined by a rectangular border to prevent overlapping with other icons.

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  3. Anonymous Coward
    Childcatcher

    Fundroid commentards are funny

    Here's a smoking gun of a document, where Samsung themselves show how and why they copied every inch of the iPhone, but the commentards seem focused on how much some expert witnesses charged to come and testify.

    Damage control much? Samsung must be proud of yo lot, that's up there with their court tactics.

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    1. vic 4
      Reply Icon

      Re: Fundroid commentards are funny

      Just you re-read the article and comments, and maybe the a document in question. You appear to have concluded that it contains evidence that samsung have clearly doen soemthing illeagal, say like use a patent without license.

      This document, along with apples experts is nothing but spin they are trying to masquerade as evidence.

      16 3
      1. Anonymous Coward
        Reply Icon
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Fundroid commentards are funny

        If you've read the whole document, then I congratulate you on your language skills.

        If you're only pretending to have read it, you might not be aware that half of it is in Korean

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        1. vic 4
          Reply Icon

          Re: Fundroid commentards are funny

          No, I didn't read the whole document, only enough to get a gist of the content. I'm afraid some editting I made on my post remvoed me suggesting the op do similar. Hard to believe I did edit that but I've been ill in bed all week near deaths door with man flu.

          As for half in korean, that is true, of the document as a whole. But you do release the first half is an english translation and the second half is the original korean?

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          1. Anonymous Coward
            Reply Icon
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Fundroid commentards are funny

            "As for half in korean, that is true, of the document as a whole. But you do release the first half is an english translation and the second half is the original korean?"

            I'm just surprised one of the Samsung shills acknowledges the document even EXISTS..! But read it? Come on - that might shatter their fragile universe.

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    2. rich_a
      Reply Icon
      FAIL

      Re: Fundroid commentards are funny

      Why is it a smoking gun? Most companies perform competitive analysis where they do a detailed breakdown of Our Product X vs. Competitor Product Y to see how the products fare against each other. You don't think Apple buys competitors products and performs teardowns to see what chips and design techniques they are using? If you don't think so, you're deluded.

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    3. Anonymous Coward
      Reply Icon
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Fundroid commentards are funny

      My impression is that the document does NOT say they copied Apple. (I may have missed something)

      Every company makes very comprehensive assessments of competitors devices - that's standard practice. You find the good and bad points, and try to improve your device where it falls short. Now, does this document actually say to the engineers - "go off and copy it" - or does it say "this is where we fall short/are not as good. Go and improve our phone in those areas."

      It certainly seems to be the latter, which is NOT a smoking gun.

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      1. VinceH
        Reply Icon

        Re: Fundroid commentards are funny

        "Now, does this document actually say to the engineers - "go off and copy it" - or does it say "this is where we fall short/are not as good. Go and improve our phone in those areas."

        It certainly seems to be the latter, which is NOT a smoking gun."

        In fact, the quote from the document highlighted in the article is completely the opposite:

        "there's also the direction to "Remove the feeling that iPhone's menu icons are copied by differentiating design""

        To me, that suggests that after doing the comparison, Samsung felt their device might give the impression there was copying, with the directive being to address that.

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    4. Loyal Commenter Silver badge
      Reply Icon

      Re: Fundroid commentards are funny

      "Samsung themselves show how and why they copied every inch of the iPhone"

      And then added a few inches on, yes? And some extra buttons? And a big samsung splash screen?

      What the document in question actually shows is that Samsung compared their phone to the iPhone and considered what improvements they could make to compete with the features of the iPhone. Like pretty mush any manufacturer of any product where they have a competitor in the market. Some of the icons on the Samsung phone might look a bit like some of the icons on the iPhone, but so what? Do you seriously beleive that the 'look and feel' of an icon is a sensible thing for the patent system to cover? If the icons were being copied verbatim, then Apple would have a case to say that Samsung are infringing their copyright, but they are not, and they don't.

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    5. peter 45
      Reply Icon
      Facepalm

      Re: Fundroid commentards are funny

      You mean there is a document that compared the two phones and pointed out the bits that the iphone did better....as in differently.

      Think about that one that again, the document Apple is using as a smoking gun to prove they are the same is the one that points how how they are....ahem...not the same.

      Room spinning. Head hurts. Must lie down.

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    6. Anonymous Coward
      Reply Icon
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Fundroid commentards are funny

      Shows how they 'compared' every inch of the two.

      But shall we mention the smoking gun of the documents from Apple showing how they copied from Sony? Oh, but the power of the lawyers has meant that one is denied from presentation.

      The way this is going I see Apple as much the same as Scientology. Their lawyers will stop at nothing and have vast sums of money to ensure they are right, even when they are wrong. Though Scientology go further and beyond the law in some very disturbing ways to get their way.

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      1. Anonymous Coward
        Reply Icon
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Fundroid commentards are funny

        from another thread - "... copied from Sony" is a misreading of facts, or malicious ignorance.

        I may have missed something important, but ...

        My understanding of the "Jony" sketch was that it was a thought experiment performed at Apple (or for them) by someone being paid by Apple at the time. Like, "Hey, what if we took the design philiosophy of someone else (in this case Sony) and made a phone? How would it look?". I did not read that the design was ACTUALLY a Sony design.

        If I thought of a catchy melody, and thought to myself, "Hey, what would Mozart have done with this" and then proceed to write a symphony in Mozart's style, would I be guily of anything whatsoever? Forget that Mozart is dead, since Mozart didn't think of the melody (I did), it is my work. Just because I like Mozart's style, doesn't mean Mozart is responsible for my symphony or that I in fact copied anything whatsoever.

        Well, maybe that is too hard for people who are tone deaf :(

        NoDroid

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      2. El_Fev
        Reply Icon

        Re: Fundroid commentards are funny

        what you mean, when apple looked at an article of what SONY might be up to and got one of their designers to imagine the result, rather than Samsung who took an iPhone analysed how it did everything and then produced a knockoff. Are you serious?

        Samsung tried to think different and their phones were getting crushed by the iPhone, so they took the simple route, lets make a phone thats looks enough like the IPhone to piggy back on its cool factor, that we can sell cheap enough to pick up sales

        I wonder why samsung changed from the tocco style http://www.trustedreviews.com/Samsung-Tocco-F480_Mobile-Phone_photos

        to the S3 style

        http://www.outlived.co.uk/ads/free-samsung-galaxy-s2-with-3-months-free-line-rental-and-free-300-mins/

        what could have possibly influence them.

        You hate apple, but you cant help using a an apple knock off . SAD!!

        2 1
        1. Anonymous Coward
          Reply Icon
          Paris Hilton

          Re: Fundroid commentards are funny

          Exactly. That's the joke of all this, the Samsung fandroids would be typing away on their Android blackberry clones if Apple hadn't showed how to do smartphones properly.

          Paris cause she had a blackberry too.

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          1. JEDIDIAH
            Reply Icon
            Linux

            Re: Fundroid commentards are funny

            > That's the joke of all this, the Samsung fandroids would be typing away on their Android blackberry clones if Apple hadn't showed how to do smartphones properly.

            Yet, the knackered SMS app on my iPhone 3GS had me pining for an old Nokia flip phone.

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        2. Mark .
          Reply Icon

          Re: Fundroid commentards are funny

          "Samsung tried to think different and their phones were getting crushed by the iPhone"

          Citation needed. Apple's phone sales were pretty abysmal for years, and I'm not sure they've ever outsold Samsung. The Wikipedia Smartphone article has referenced sales for smartphone OS figures, but if you've got some sales figures showing Apple phones outselling Samsung phones, I'd like to see it (and if it was true, then Apple and Samsung were getting even more crushed by companies like Nokia).

          1 1
        3. A 11
          Reply Icon
          FAIL

          Re: Fundroid commentards are funny

          Both these have rounded corners and a grid of icons!

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  4. heyrick Silver badge
    WTF?

    Eh?

    The jury is listening to people being paid to be witnesses?

    I knew the US legal system was screwed up, but this takes the biscuit...

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    1. Anonymous Coward
      Reply Icon
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Eh?

      They are listening to expert testimony by experts. Both sides get to have experts which they can get for free, or pay, their choice.

      I expect the expert lawyers are getting paid as well.

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      1. Pascal Monett Silver badge
        Reply Icon

        "expert testimony by experts"

        Experts that cannot recognize the difference between a Galaxy and an Iphone.

        Some expert.

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      2. Fra88er
        Reply Icon

        Re: Eh?

        The point is, how "truthful" and "unbiased" can someone's testimony be when they are getting paid? We are not talking about covering their expenses while they are at the trial, this is a large sum of money....

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      3. Mark .
        Reply Icon

        Re: Eh?

        (Whilst the jury are lucky to get expenses covered...)

        But lawyers are meant to be one-sided. An expert witness is supposed to speak on their expertise, and not based on taking sides. I don't have to worry that a lawyer might be biased towards the one paying for them. But if a witness is biased towards the one paying for them, that's a reason to dispute their evidence, surely?

        This is common sense, no different to anything else. E.g., if a reviewer for a Samsung or Apple product was taking backhanders from Apple, we'd doubt their reviews.

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        1. secret goldfish
          Reply Icon

          Re: Eh?

          I understand what you are saying regarding how a witness should have an unbiased opinion in comparison to a lawyer with a "one sided" argument.

          The problem isn't so simple though when you consider WHO actually selects these "expert witnesses".

          As it turns out, they are in-fact selected, from the beginning, by the individual "one sided","biased" legal teams which (along with them being paid) already makes them suspect as far as being "non-biased".

          If an opposition legal team was given the option of "non-approval" for a witness to take the stand then you might have better "un-biased" witnesses but you'd also likely have both sides "rejecting" every witness from the opposing side. The way things currently work at least allows witnesses to be heard, whether they are biased or not is up to the opposing legal teams to prove/discredit which the Samsung lawyer did in this case by asking about her "payment".

          It isn't necessarily that smart or clever a legal move however if Samsung are also "paying" their witnesses (which they likely are) as they too will now have their credibility compromised when asked the similar "payment" question by the Apple legal team.

          With that in mind, it is hardly likely that Apple OR Samsung for that matter would call forward and pay a witness that wasn't likely to speak in their own agenda/best interests. It is best for the jurors to consider this upfront or be outright openly told by the Judge (or a no-biased court representative) how the system of "expert witnesses" works so that they are at least better educated to then make their own mind up regarding the credibility of a witness and their statement.

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    2. Andy 115
      Reply Icon
      Thumb Down

      Re: Eh?

      You must be pretty cluless about legal systems in general...

      If you instruct an expert in a UK court case, expect to pay a pretty penny for their services just like you will be doing for the barristers and the rest of the legal team you are employing,

      2 2
  5. Captain Scarlet
    Paris Hilton

    They should just get to the point

    Hand everyone both devices and go "Have a play"

    See what they say.

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  6. Law
    Joke

    If Samsung want to ship me out there for a couple of weeks with the wife and kid + 80k in my pocket - I'll tell the court how I mock my iPhone-owning friends/family every time I see them with their phone out, and not once have I mistakenly abused an innocent Samsung phone owner.

    6 1
  7. Shagbag

    WTF?

    "Samsung has argued before that of course it looked closely at what Apple was doing, because (duh!) the two firms are competitors so they're going to analyse each others' gear. But this document gives Apple yet more ammunition in its claims that the Korean firm had set out to intentionally copy the Jesus-mobe."

    I must have missed it, but I couldn't make the connection between analysing a competing product and 'intentionally copying' it. Or is the sole purpose guilt-by-association?

    2 1
  8. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    I accidentially bought an S2 instead of an 4S as they looked so a like.

    But imagine my delight when I realised I didn't have to use that pile of shit that is iTunes.

    6 1
    1. Anonymous Coward
      Reply Icon
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: I accidentially bought an S2 instead of an 4S as they looked so a like.

      Nobody needs to, whether iPhone user or iClone Fandroid with out-of-date facts.

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      1. Anonymous Coward
        Reply Icon
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: I accidentially bought an S2 instead of an 4S as they looked so a like.

        As long as you bought the stuff from Apple... Oh I see.

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      2. JEDIDIAH
        Reply Icon
        Linux

        Re: I accidentially bought an S2 instead of an 4S as they looked so a like.

        Then it should be fun getting my stuff onto and off of an iPhone then.

        With an Android I can just plug it in and use it like a hard drive or run sshDroid and do the same thing but wirelessly.

        Only ever treating your smartphone like a feature phone does not count here.

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  9. Fra88er
    FAIL

    Are we dumb?

    Are we dumb? Apple seems to think so.

    I am a Samsung S series phone user and I would recognize an Apple phone a mile away. If an Apple user can't tell the difference as Apple is suggesting, then I would think twice about purchasing a device from a company that thinks so little of it's clients.

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    1. stanimir
      Reply Icon

      Re: Are we dumb?

      Yes it's ok - apple does know what's good for you. You tell people what's good for them, offer as little choice as possible and they follow. Look at their policy/regulations for languages available to develop (abomination of objective-c. )and publishing on their store - no difference, same strategy....

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  10. bill 36

    Surely

    Copying happens in every industry?

    When Dyson invented his "cyclone" vacuum cleaner, Hoover had to ditch its dust bags or go bust.

    The Japanese stripped european cars to their component parts to learn how to make them better.

    They also copied the Scotch whisky industry and made a reasonable alternative.

    Competitors have to thoroughly analyse each others products to remain competative and it has always been so in the IT industry.

    I'm struggling to see why Samsung would not analyse Apples products.

    There is no doubt that the Iphone was ground breaking in many ways but so was the jet engine. (no pun intended)

    Nah, for me, Apple will use every trick in the book to suppress competition.

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  11. thechevron

    also, if she worked on the icons she must be a graphic designer of some sort. If she can't tell two phones apart she's in the wrong profession.

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  12. Paul 164

    It's not that confusing

    "The fruity firm's design experts have been testifying to how much Samsung stuff looks like iDevices, with the latest, graphic designer Susan Kare, claiming the gadgets look "confusingly similar"." Yeah right, someone who's inside-out familiar with the Apple design and icon layout!

    I would have thought maybe the word SAMSUMG at the top of the phone would be a dead give away that it's NOT an Apple iPhone? The rectangular button?!

    Walk into a shop and ask for an iPhone and it'll be pretty obvious to anyone (apart from the witnesses paid $80,000) to see if you're given a Samsung Galaxy! For instance, the packaging, the loading screen logo etc.

    People in these times are more savvy and do their research before parting with their hard-earned cash to be fooled like that... Even my technophobe Dad would know the difference!

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  14. Fab De Marco

    Madness!

    When will this end.

    Yes there are similarities, but the same is the case in the reverse. Originally Apple had a very poor notifications interface, untill they copied that found in the Android OS; using the pull down notifications drawer.

    I run both iPhone and Android for work/personal respectively and with with one click of the home button I could see any and all notifications on my android Device, whereas with Apple I would be forced to unlock the phone and check for red notification numbers. Now, since whatever update ages ago Apple have the app drawer.

    I am waiting for Apple to adopt the widget interface too, as it simply makes for a better user experience.

    As for Apple playing dumb with regards to attention to detail, is this really the same company that once asked Google to fix the shade of yellow in the second o in google as it was simply the wrong shade.

    source: http://www.macstories.net/links/steve-jobs-googles-vic-gundotra-and-icon-ambulance-on-a-sunday/

    This they notice, but one phone icon looking like another makes them cry heretic!

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    1. El_Fev
      Reply Icon

      Re: Madness!

      So basically what you saying is that Apple should spend millions on R'n'D designing a phone and everyone else should just be allowed to wait, copy the **** out of it and as long as they put their own companies logo on the sides that's ok?

      What you gutted about is that Apple is not interested in the race to the bottom antics, which means cheap skates like you cant get the phones , so you relying on the likes of Samsung to to create the cheap good enough for you to buy. What you don't realise is without the likes of Apple putting in actually effort to make tech useable we will be stuck with lots of high end crap that is totally unusable.

      I hope Apple stuff them and the rest of the industry get the message, put some effort into UI design and you wont have to wait for apple to do it for you!

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      1. Oninoshiko
        Reply Icon
        FAIL

        Re: Madness!

        No.

        What he said was "Apple stole these design elements from other phones for later iPhones." Which is exactly the opposite of the words you are putting in his mouth.

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      2. Mark .
        Reply Icon

        Re: Madness!

        Ah yes, it's the obnoxious and misleading "cheap" tactic - the fallacy of equating "cheap" as in "lower cost" with "poor quality". Just because one is the former, doesn't make it the latter. These are different meanings. In English, two words can have different meanings, it doesn't make them the same thing. It's unclear if you are just ignorant, or are intentionally trying to deceive people with this spin.

        I'm sorry you sound angry - it must be hard when you find out you've bought an overpriced phone, only to find the people getting better deals also have features that you have to wait years for. I'm sorry.

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      3. davefb
        Reply Icon
        Thumb Down

        Re: Madness!

        No, it's the rank hypocrisy. Apple took all the best bits of other phones , then did their own. None of the bits in the first phones was unique, they'd all been done in other phones, but apple did them 'a bit better'.

        A lot more expensive as well..

        But to think anything in that first phone was innovative is bizarre. In fact it was way behind in a lot of areas.

        FWIW, Apple have already admitted they also too other peoples phones to sort of technical issues. That's what ( as a coder involved with ui design) that Apple can patent " a colour", but just rip off technical patents and avoid frand.

        What Samsung have done, which is worrying Apple, isn't to copy anything specific APART from finally paying some attention to detail, something Nokia should have done years ago.

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      4. JEDIDIAH
        Reply Icon
        Linux

        Re: Madness!

        > So basically what you saying is that Apple should spend millions on R'n'D designing a phone and everyone else should just be allowed to wait, copy the **** out of it and as long as they put their own companies logo on the sides that's ok?

        Yes.

        That's the way a free market works if you don't actually invent something worth creating a 20 year long patent on.

        Apple makes mad money. No one should feel special sympathy for them. Your argument is stupid because clearly Apple has made back their investment several times over. They still have a first mover advantage that will likely yield them more mad money regardless of whether or not they get to treat the phone market like they own it.

        As a computing device they are likely taking good advantage of what the rest of the industry has done over the last 30 years. That includes the spiffy multi-touch stuff too.

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