'Geek' image scares women away from tech industry
Women don't consider IT careers because “the popular media’s ‘geek’ image of the technology field” along with other factors including a lack of female role models and support at home and work “tend to dissuade talented girls from pursuing a tech career.” “Misguided school-age career counselling” is another problem, as it often …
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Re: 'Oh no, not again' - David Bowie, 'Ashes To Ashes' (1980)
What an odd reply. It presupposes that men who take care of their appearance or look good are less technically adept than men who don't. As there seems no logical basis for this, we can propose a bias on your part and suggest that you are probably one of the "types of men" that are being criticised. But despite your leaping to characterise the OP's position as wanting more metrosexuals who "Sharon" can turn to when she has a bust up with her boyfriend, I think it's more reasonable to suspect the OP is talking about creepy guys who see women less as people and more as entities defined by their gender. You know, like you do in your post?
It's in the genes - everyone knows girls can't understand computers ;-)
we don't believe it but someone had to say it
Just save that Excel document luv and make us a cuppa tea.
IGMC
Re: Just save that Excel document luv and make us a cuppa tea.
Lol, there's now an office-based episode of Monkfish playing in my head.
I thought the geeks went ages ago?
Perhaps in my not so varied career I've worked somewhere that's fundamentally different to most but in my last place of employment I could count the number of geeks on the fingers of one hand. I've come across far more women in IT than geeks.
I thought nowadays IT was a service industry like any other and "soft skills" were what mattered.
Re: I thought the geeks went ages ago?
Depends on what kind of IT you work in. Some sectors (i.e. security) are far more geeky than say, financial one, and companies actually developing software may be more geeky than those simply selling services. Good IT needs people loving their job, but that doesn't mean they are nerdy. Sure, you may find more introvert people than extrovert ones, any scientific or technical skill is favored by the capability of "full immersion" into it, people who can't concentrate and need to talk to everybody in one mile radius are usually less adapt.
One of the problem is our society has a very bad opinion of introversion. That's not autism or any kind of disease or pathology. It's just some people like to spend some time alone focusing on something interesting - but in the "social" world that will soon become illegal! :D
Re: I thought the geeks went ages ago?
"It's just some people like to spend some time alone focusing on something interesting - but in the social world that will soon become illegal!"
It hasn't already? In my experience, people think that minding your own business means you're up to something. Or that you have a problem with them. Which I do -- after they bitch about it.
Why would any self respecting woman ...
... want to come off as Sheldon Cooper with ovaries and live in a basement? Yeah, yeah, I know. But IT does keep our toys working and like Doctors, who even cares if the fix comes from a woman or a man. Just do your thing, fix the toys and let me get out of this dungeon.
Because everyone...
...every race, every culture, every gender simply MUST be THE SAME, and EQUAL, and EQUIVALENT. Apparently.
Heaven forbid there should ever be any discrimination, ever, anywhere, by anyone, for any reason whatsoever. We are all the same. Repeat after me. We are all the same. Now just go and buy things from your local mall. We are all the same.
Re: Because everyone...
We are the same tis the inconvenient truth, innit?
Re: Tech don't need biased sexisim impossed it needs fair pay
ummmm.......wut?
Re: Tech don't need biased sexisim impossed it needs fair pay
Your entire rant about how people can apply for jobs if they want them, how gender ratios shouldn't be enforced etc., is really very odd given that the subject is how to stop school children being discouraged from an interesting career. One might even suppose that you just wanted to rant against your preferred strawman. Sorry. Straw-woman.
Plenty o' wimmins
I've met many women in the IT business.
Unfortunately it took a while to realise they were women - what with the facial hair, pot belly and soft-drink and crisps addiction.
Why are these things so patronising?
Maybe I don't have the feminist gene, but I find these types of initiatives bloody patronising. Did any of you look at the website? Damn thing is pink for god's sake, only surprise is there isn't a picture of Justin poxy Bieber on it.
Yes I'm female, yes I work for a technology company and yes I do like to meet other female professionals in this industry so that we can share the stories and learn from each other. What I don't need is someone telling me how to feel comfortable walking into a meeting at a "Women in Technology" seminar that our company held. Its hard enough to be taken seriously in a male dominated environment without being made to feel like we are on the special bus because someone in HR thinks we need a special programme.
Feel we need a pair of shoes to go with this handbag. What do you mean its Spawn of Satan?
Re: Why are these things so patronising?
I have to agree about that website. It's pretty pathetic.
The most cringe-worthy part has to be the picture of the two women on the grass (towards the bottom right). You can almost here the 'oh my god! he did not just post that!' oozing out of it.
The girl in the chair doesn't exactly appeal either. Is this site meant to appeal to women to go into IT roles or to get into 'fun with computers'?
Or
... most IT jobs need a high IQ so draw your own conclusions from the standard deviations below
http://www.iqcomparisonsite.com/SexDifferences.aspx.
and
girls are on average maybe not as interested in tech stuff as in social stuff?
Re: Or
Now, now! Don't go all Charles Murray on them. I mean, that's all that icky math and statistics and comput....
Never mind.
Bloody hell...
It's the usual misogynistic sexist bullshit again.
Women aren't that common in IT because of a large proportion of the men in IT. Just look at the comments in articles like this one and then think if you'd like to work with people making them, especially if they are targeted at you?
Re: Bloody hell...
While recognizing it is an odd characteristic, it is none the less a typical male geek characteristic that when we are attacked for being something we aren't, we respond by generating an exterior personality characterized by the errant fault. Because really, we don't like bigots for company, and it turns out to be a very effective defense. The only people who bother to push their way through are those who are truly interested in what we have to say, and possibly us as well.
I say this knowing as all fucking misanthropes do, that you knowing this won't help any.
Womens work..
The first commercial programmers were women (on LEO), because the “computer staff” (people who did the calculations) were women at Lyons. One of the great pioneers of computing was Grace Hooper who lead the spec for COBOL (which was much better for Data Processing than ForTran). Grace Hooper became an Admiral of the US Navy because it was women who organised the Navy processes when it used to be clerical.. that all changed when Men discovered that women had all the control, and men had to learn to type.
Now that computing is a much more social activity, with lower emphasis on hardware, and the opportunity to make a stash of money, we’ll start to see the pendulum swinging back again.. but that does not dispel the big downside.. many of the men that currently work in IT.
Re: Womens work..
Nah, that's just capitalism. Back in those days, women were cheaper to employ than men.
In my experience...
...and I reiterate - only in my experience...
Women in IT roles usually tend, after a short while, to drift away from the technical side of IT roles and push more towards being a chatty visitor, sales or pushing into presales, account management or admin.
It's been said already but its down to interest
Women are generally not interested in Tech and IT. Always been the case, maybe it will change but thats for future generations to decide.
It's got nothing to do with "Certain types of Men" in the profession. I remember my college days the beaty therapy block was filled with beautiful young women, and while I would love to have been locked in an elevator with a few of them. There is no way I would endure waxing and facials (not that kind) because I would like to work with them because I have no interest in beauty. I would shave, sometimes, but thats about as far as I'd take it
If there is a drive to strong arm women into IT then it is wrong. If they want to do it then they can. If they are made to do it then they will end up hating their job and retraining for something else, thereby simply wasting their time.
Much in the same way as if there was a drive to get men doing beauty, if they want to do it fine, free choice, have fun.
End of the day, give kids all the options as to what they can do, what they enjoy and then give careers advice based on that. Don't pigeon hole people based on their gender, its just as sexist as discriminating imo.
This software developer.
Is doing his best to change the 'geek' stereotype to 'grumpy dipsomaniac'.
Looking at this place, it would seem he is not alone.
I'm still waiting...
.. for the Cirinists to join this thread.
Typical sexism
The assumption that girls want a pink and fluffy feminine career.
In other news it was announced that there aren't enough men going into IT because it doesn't have the tough, macho, dirty and dangerous image of off-shore oil.
The problem with these initiatives is
that they are a load of bollocks.
We need more men in social work but you wont see a drive for that for the simple reason that the driving forces behind equality dont want to give up the fiefdoms they currently control.
I work for a company in SaaS which has more than 50% women overall, but in the areas of engineering, development, IT etc its almost 99% male. Thats just the way it goes, not many women apply for those roles.
In our CS department we have a significant number of women in senior roles leading tech support teams but they rarely go forward for the coding or data crunching or other male dominated areas of the company. Its not that the opportunity isnt there, they simply dont apply. And its not because the men in those department are neanderthal mysoginists, most of them are married to or date women from the company.
Re: The problem with these initiatives is
> And its not because the men in those department are neanderthal mysoginists, most of them are married to or date women from the company.
People of all sexes should run away from companies like this quickly.
The analysis itself is somewhat sexist.
The stereotypical "geek" image isn't any more attractive to boys than it is to girls. It's sexist to assume that girls are more sensitive to external judgment than boys are. I'm willing to be educated, here, but being a high school geek, and a boy, did not get me any "cool" points. Quite the contrary.
What I'm hearing is that girls will go ahead and change their very identity, and mortgage their future because high school sucks, and will do so in a way that boys won't.
Sexist crap.
I'll buy the statement that high school career counselors are useless, because I found mine useless. If they're more useless to their girl charges than their boy charges, then we're stepping beyond the realm of negligence and incompetence and entering into the dark woods of criminal activity.
If they've found evidence of criminal activity, then let them start pressing charges and put a stop to it. Otherwise, it sounds like they're starting with a premise that girls are just, oh, so much more SENSITIVE than boys, and then proving it to themselves.
Thank you, Saint Thomas Aquinas, but I don't buy your proofs. Now take this away and bring me the toasted cheese sandwiches I ordered earlier.
Here's a novel idea. Ask girls what they want to do when they grow up, and then help them do it.
just read the comments
Wonder why women don't want to be in IT or stay in IT? Just the read all the comments here. Really guys, could you dig up some new stereotypes?
p.s. There was a woman programmer, Lois Haibt, who worked on the Fortran team.
p.p.s. why is the only female avatar available a blonde with a certain reputation?
Re: just read the comments
1 She's not really blonde, unless you count bleach-blonde
2 are you sure that the avatar that I'm using here isn't female, and how can you tell? And after you're finished with that one, how about ET, the avatar between Jolly Roger and Der Terminator? Or Tux, over to the left of this avatar? You mean that girl penguins don't exist?
Women are just smarter than Men...
In my experience, women were infiltrating all aspects of technology during the Dot-Com boom. With every other commercial for a tech boot camp promising $65K (USD), the market flooded with people dreaming of a better life.
Then the reality of long hours, no 'life', and calls around the clock settled in. IT became the modern day equivalent of indentured servitude. In classic social conditioning, men tolerated it because they had to provide for their families, whereas most women had other options.
I find women in IT, but usually only in 'settled' environments with fairly regular hours and coverage for time off. I presume that they're just smart than we men.
role models ....
Jess Parker in Primeval ?
Jen in IT crowd ?
Call me whatever, but both look rather appetizing, and I think they'd make excellent role models.
Unfortunately a lot of people in IT just come off looking like angry nerds. Just look around here. Don't dare claim to own an iphone or even like it. You'll bring on the wrath of hundreds who can't stand different opinions.
Most people don't want to spend their whole day justifying things like opinions so can you really blame them for think IT is full of retards and it's best to avoid it?
It works in the opposite direction
It works in the opposite direction to the benefit of women. Take a look at the average HR, marketing, PR departments... a massive skew to the female side.
Re: It works in the opposite direction
Women and men are not opposing sides in some battle. A woman who inclined to go into IT and finds resistance to that, is not okay about it because some other woman somewhere else has an easier time of getting a job in HR (ooh, HR, how exciting!). Sexism is treating people by gender rather than as individuals. Were it the other way around and you wanted to be a programmer but found yourself being pushed into being a primary school teacher because that was more suitable to your gender, would you say: "it's okay that women have an easier time being programmers because men have an easier time being primary school teachers?" Or would you say: "sharing a gender with someone doesn't mean I'm the same as them."
Next up, disliking one White person because a different White person nothing to do with the first one was mean to you. Same principle: treating people as a group instead of as individuals.
Non-techie observation
This Cracked article indirectly points out a couple of misconceptions about XX-chromosome based techs:
http://www.cracked.com/article_19160_8-scenes-that-prove-hollywood-doesnt-get-technology.html
The women are either trendy beauty queens or hopeless social retards. No real middle ground.
My own hypothesis that like most people these days, girls get their first interaction with tech through gaming. Maybe if male gamers, regardless of age, didn't devolve into horny fourteen-year-olds ("yer a GURL?? Tits or GTFO!!") when playing, tech in general wouldn't seem such a hostile environment for those in possession of a uterus.
Hmm
I know a woman who is extremely proud of being a geek - she also loves playing with all the latest toys and is THE computer person in her family.
When I was in my 20's
I would tell folks I was a secretary rather than say I was a software developer. At parties, being truthfull would be the kiss of death - a true tumbleweed moment - blank face - excuse me - goodbye, then some sly looks from the other side of the room - social death.
Things have changed (slightly) I still remember when being female and brilliant at your job was not just unexpected but hated with a vengance by many male (and some female) staff. I still remember having to get others in meetings to propose my solutions so they would be considered.
My current employer is putting it bluntly the best.
Re: When I was in my 20's
> I would tell folks I was a secretary rather than say I was a software developer.
> being truthfull would be the kiss of death
Me too, I used to tell people I was a social anthropologist for exactly the same reason. But I'm male: I think all of us in these professions suffer the same problem. The question is, are women sufficiently alienated by this to actually give up their tech job (or never start it in the first place), while men are more prepared to put up with the social consequences?
IT training courses
It's a sad indictment that all IT training courses I attend -- these are *public* courses -- there's a very small percentage of female attendees, frequently there are none.
There's more female project managers and administrators. Just very very few engineers.
Hrrm. Thinks. Hrmmmm.
Right, in my limited experience with women, the vast majority of them are *not* interested in how things work. They have better things to do and many of those things they do far better then men can.
I've had several girlfriends over the years and am now common law married. My other half is intelligent, inquisitive, people orientated, but she *doesn't* like messing about with IT - she sees it as something that should just work.
I don't seek out women who are like this.
In my workplace, I'm lucky enough to have a very even mix of managers - there's actually more female managers than male. None of them - and we're talking 20 women here - show even the slightest interest in IT - and I work for a digital/ad agency!
The blokes however, even the graphic designers, are all over tech - gadgets, phones, gaming, networks - you name it.
I'm sorry, but that's just the way it is - for the most part, women aren't into IT, the same way they aren't into formula one, or rugby, or time team.
On the flip side, men aren't much interested in many of the things women find fascinating.
But heck, isn't that just great? It's the way of the world, it's part of the attraction and to try to deny otherwise is so pathetically "Politically Correct" it beggars belief.
My other half, she would completely agree with what I've written here - but she's a strong person, we're modern, we share decisions and work as a team.
Geeky women...
I've seen geeky women, but I do doubt that there are enough to try to approach a 50/50 split in those jobs that really should have geeky people in them. Some companies do try to get by with putting "normal" people into the kind of positions that should have geeks, and I suppose they will have less problem with this.
I've heard enough complaints about places that try to overwork and underpay their IT employees, that this may drive geeky women into other professions (either completely different profession, or freelancing.)
female engineers
'Female Engineer' is an oxymoron. It is here in the UK. Females look down upon people in IT and engineering. Go on a date, the first date and see how the girl reacts when you tell them you're in IT. It's a sure fire way to kill the date and for the girl to never see you again.
What I have said is true for the UK. But, in countries like India and Pakistan, IT, engineering as an altogether very different status. When I've been to these countries and they ask me what I do for my career, when I respond with IT, the other person is impressed.
I work with a lot of Indians and I have never come across so many female IT people. And you know what? Even though they have degrees in Computer Engineering, Electronic Engineering they are very feminine, unlike British females with degrees in these subjects.
Don't get me started on WISE (woman in science and engineering), that's a complete waste of time (and money).
The principle on which it is based - in my view - is completely flawed. They claim that engineering needs more females to give a different view, that somehow the products/services designed will be better because a female was involved in the design and development?
That the woman can give a different perspective! (On female matters such as the development of sanitary products I might agree but not in hard core IT or other branches of engineering).
I have only ever come across one female that's been better than a male in ICT, and she was an Indian engineer.
Re: female engineers
"I have only ever come across one female that's been better than a male in ICT, and she was an Indian engineer"
Better than a male? Which male? Any male? Because I've worked with a tonne of male programmers who were inadequate, didn't understand basic programming principles. I've had to sack someone because they were just so bad (and they were male). There are female programmers who are better than any of these. So why break it down along gender lines. Your logic is terrible.
Re: female engineers
Good rejoinder!
But...
So, you are in a position to sack someone. You did sack a male 'programmer' that you judged to being 'just so bad' - at programming / software engineering I assume.
'just so bad' is a platitude.
What are basic programming principles? Specifically those that you judged the male to not understand. Was the lack of understanding of these principles the sole reason for you to sack this male?
Just curious.
'There are female programmers who are better than any of these.' Oh dear - now you have fallen into the same rhetoric.
Please be careful. Logic is reasoning is it not? Reasoning done on accepted truths / axioms. Men are superior to women is an accepted truth for some people. These people will reason, using other accepted truths that they can treat women in a manner that seems logical.
I've worked with people who work as programmers / software engineers that do understand the 'principles' but still do shoddy work - may be they are afraid of being sacked.
Re: female engineers
"So, you are in a position to sack someone. You did sack a male 'programmer' that you judged to being 'just so bad' - at programming / software engineering I assume."
Correct. Though their gender is relevant only in so far as to show that there are female programmers who I would not have had to sack so it shows gender is not the criteria for sacking.
"What are basic programming principles? Specifically those that you judged the male to not understand. Was the lack of understanding of these principles the sole reason for you to sack this male?"
Specifically? They didn't understand inheritance, classes, passing by reference... They were a nice person and fun to be around socially, but they were a web-designer who thought they were a programmer. And my deadlines don't afford the luxury of someone treating their job as a training course and they *definitely* don't afford the luxury of me spending hour after hour babying them through the development process. So yes, technical ability (along with no sign that they were trying to address their shortcomings) was the sole reason.
"'There are female programmers who are better than any of these.' Oh dear - now you have fallen into the same rhetoric."
No. Your logic is very poor. That there are female programmers who are better than male programmers shows that gender is not the deciding factor. You said that you'd only ever met one female programmer who was better than male programmers which implies something else entirely: that one gender is better than the other at programming. How you can call an argument that gender isn't the deciding factor "the same rhetoric" as you saying it is, is beyond me.
Well, it's not really beyond me. It's obvious that you saw me say I knew male programmers XY and Z, who were better than female programmer XX and were immediately primed for an argument about whether women or men were better, despite it being obvious that what I was saying was that it's not Men vs. Women. It's competent vs. incompetent.
Why? I said they were so bad that I had to sack them. Why is that a "trite or dull remark" ?
"I've worked with people who work as programmers / software engineers that do understand the 'principles' but still do shoddy work - may be they are afraid of being sacked."
I don't know why you put 'principles' in quotes like that. You seem to be implying that they're not important. Maybe you work at a job where they're not. With me, they are. If someone does shoddy work because "they are afraid of being sacked," then they're responding to the threat rather badly imo. The correct response is to do good work, not shoddy work. Then you don't get sacked. In either case, gender is completely irrelevant so I think you're just dragging your own side-issues into this.
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