back to article London rioters should 'loose all benefits'

Amid angry calls for UK rioters to face plastic bullets, water cannon, the Army, a spell in the Army, jail or all of the above, comes this e-petition demanding that the feral youth of Britain be stripped of their state hand-outs. Or rather, it insists that convicted public disorder offenders "loose all benefits", which we …

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      1. Graham Marsden

        Re: THERE'S A FUCKING REPLY BUTTON ON YOUR SCREEN - USE IT.

        Actually I think this is an occasional glitch with El Reg's forum system. Before now I've done "Reply to post" only to have my message come up as a separate entity instead of being appended with a "quote bar" to the OP.

        1. jake Silver badge

          @Graham Marsden

          You just *think* you hit the reply button. In reality, you replied in the "post new message" box directly under the last post in the comment thread.

          I've been guilty of it myself.

          Making (mi)steaks proves we're human, not machines ;-)

          1. Graham Marsden

            @jake

            I'm sure I've replied to messages mid page yet still seen the response turn up as a "new" message instead of part of the thread.

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: @jake

              That would make it a bug, which we would need to fix.

              If you come across an example of this, send us email to webmaster@theregister.co.uk and we will check it out.

              1. Graham Marsden

                @Drewc

                I can't recall it happening recently, but I'm sure it has happened in the past, however short of going back through all my old posts to find an example, I'll just have to keep an eye out for it in future.

                I did wonder if it might have been due to the moderation process eg with reply posts somehow getting "disconnected" from the OP.

  1. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    rioters the simple answer

    ship em all to afghanistan, drop em in middle of desert and say there ya go son if you can find your way home your a free man!

  2. carter brandon

    Stop their parents benefits

    the kid's will soon be home tucked up in bed.

    1. Armando 123

      This was tried

      It was back in the mid-to-late 90s and IIRC it was Wisconsin that did it: kids screws up two or three times and the whole family loses benefits. And it worked, before the lawyers and activists jumped in and kiboshed it.

      When I get home I'll look it up.

  3. Anonymous Coward
    Devil

    Actually, that is counterproductive

    Just the opposite - they should get DOUBLE the benefits.

    No, I am not joking. In a society which has no middle class the only way to prevent the 99.9% of "forever pleb" of hanging the rich on the streetlamps is to give them MORE bread and circuses.

    What is happening now is a natural result of the destruction of British manufacturing. I have no nostalgia towards the days of British Rail, British Steel or British Leyland as I myself am a naturalised (and not proper natural) brit. So I am saying this from a purely pragmatic perspective.

    A society where you have to plan further than tonight's booze and kebab, where you have to stay in work, where you stay in work for most of your life is actually a stable society. A society where you are in one job and work all of your life towards that fleeting promotion and the dream of your kids advancing on the social ladder is a stable society. A society where your goal in life is to advance them on that ladder is a stable society. It may not be necessarily globally competitive. It may require some nasty border and fiscal measures to remain afloat. It is however socially stable. It will not riot. I

    A society where the workforce is "highly dynamic" (quotes intended), where people do not see the need to work like crazy to stay in their current job, where 99% see no way in hell for them or their progeny to advance the social ladder, where 90% are no longer even bothered with the idea that advancing may be worth it is not stable. It is a powder keg. It will riot and the only way to prevent it is to give BREAD AND CIRCUSES.

    The bread has been cut down. The "Shag-n-tel" and "Fear the Paedo" circus has been trimmed. Of course there will be a freaking riot.

    Example in hand - Roman (and later Vizantian) Empire. Up to around 3rd century BC romans had no need for bread and circuses because the cities were not full of people which "will never make it". Once the society became highly stratified Rome started building them and continued until the slave owner society was replaced by "assigned to the land colon" agricultural society around 3rd century AD. After that it did not need to build circuses and spread bread any more. The fleeting dream of buying your own land out and becoming a free landowner, not a tenant was more than enough to keep every one working their a**e off until their grave with no f*** circuses. Ditto for the Vizantian empire which existed along these lines for a thousand more years after that.

    Example in hand - Russia. It went into meltdown and exploaded a century ago when the post-1860 reform dream of "seeking your fortune in the big city" turned sour and all those people seeking that dream realised that they have no chance of advancing the social ladder.

    And so on. The list of examples should be continued.

    OK, so now can we give them double the benefits. It is probably too late to reconsider the role of manufacturing and _DECREASED_ workforce mobility towards the stability of the society.

    1. MarkieMark1
      Holmes

      there are no time limits

      providing you're prepared to think sufficiently laterally

      to rekindle manufacturing – plus many additional beneficial effects – it's as simple as adding a clause to GATT to say that goods/services from producer countries that have worse conditions of labor may be levied for import duty in proportion to a cost estimate of the value of such working conditions

      trouble is that free trade is virtually a religion now, it would be rather an obstacle course to persuade its advocates to accept such a reinterpretation of it

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Devil

        Fight religion with religion. Greenie obscession can do a good job here

        Well, the best counterargument to GATT is GreenWash. Just add pollution fees.

        They are roughly in line with work conditions so this achieves the same goal while being politically pallatable.

        The moment goods and services from China and India will be charged in line with what they emit into the environment they will stop being competitive.

        In any case - only disillusioned people riot. That is all that needs to be said here. A person who has a dream and is striving to achieve does not need to riot. That is the root cause and If that is not tackled we will have more of the same again, and again, and again.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      FAIL

      It really depends on your aim

      Doubling the benefits may make the problem go away for now, but there are big big problems with that solution.

      For one thing, benefits now are practically the same as you can get working on minimum wage. about 8 years ago I worked out that I was working 40+ hours per week and getting about £40 more than if I were out of work. Needless to say, I've changed jobs since...

      Another issue is that it will only be a stopgap measure. In another 20 or so years the "yoof" will get unhappy again and it will all kick off again, so you double the benefits again? More and more of the productive economy will go towards those who can't be bothered to work, and that will encourage more and more to not work. This will inevitably lead to a situation where there's a small minority in work who have a much lower quality of work than those who laze about all day until they just quit. Goodbye Britain.

      Speaking solely from the perspective of one who wishes the country to continue, surely a better long term solution would be to either Euthanise those who are not happy with their lot (if life's too hard, we can take away your problems) or at the very least neuter them, so they don't breed more feckless layabouts.

  4. Scott Broukell
    Megaphone

    and while your at it ....

    ... NO CHILD BENEFIT / BENEFIT for ANYONE after the second child. (triplets / quadruplets at first birth excluded etc)

    Yes, I know what you're all going to say, that's a tax on the poor procreating and the rich, who can normally better afford to bring their children up by their own means, will continue to do so. But, many better off peeps decide early that they will plan to only replace themselves. Many, many, more poorer folk decide wtf, we get hand outs for 'em so let's plan to keep at it as well. Of course this may not legislate against men fathering children by numerous mothers - unless fathers name / details are required to claim said benefit(s) of course.

    No, I don't read the Daily Mail.

    I just think that those kids whose destiny is to be brought up in relative poverty would be better off if there were fewer of them - they would be more to go round for each of them and who knows that might improve their chances of improving their own lot as it were.

    Help them improve their surroundings by spending the same funds on teaching the youngsters the skills needed to improve where they live and you may see more pride and less prejudice.

    1. Danny 14
      FAIL

      wow

      I mean seriously. I'd also ask my (3) kids to avoid giving their tax contributions to people they dont like either, perhaps remove state pensions for people who do not have children (for whatever reason - its not my fault afterall) <sigh>

      "I just think that those kids whose destiny is to be brought up in relative poverty would be better off if there were fewer of them - they would be more to go round for each of them and who knows that might improve their chances of improving their own lot as it were."

      I hope you are trolling. There are *responsible parents* out there you know. The ones who actually look to see if they can afford children. Sure I get tax credits and child benefit (and salary sacrifice vouchers for me and the wife) but it *all* goes on childcare - thus the money goes back to the treasury and keeps people in jobs too (which stops other social issues).

      Nearly as bad as Cameron saying society is sick. Not really. The actions of 1000 people cannot dictate the whole of society. There were just as many volunteering to clean up the mess afterwards but no front page was devoted to them.

      "Help them improve their surroundings by spending the same funds on teaching the youngsters the skills needed to improve where they live and you may see more pride and less prejudice."

      Fairly pointless. we operate an appenticeship scheme - for free as we do take on >25 year olds too. Not a single one has been taken on as staff as we cannot afford to. Neither can anyone else. So they are back on the scraphead albeit with skills. Skilled workforce is useless without jobs.

      1. Matt Bryant Silver badge
        Boffin

        RE: wow

        ".....Skilled workforce is useless without jobs," Actually, I totally agree on that point, but probably not in the way you would think. I see pointless political memes around getting the numbers of graduates up, or getting all school-leavers to have some form of diploma, but that's just a numbers game. Vast numbers of Medieval History or Applied Dance grads are not going to help get the economy back on track. A few people have mentioned Egypt without realising the Egyptian youth are quite well educated (by Middle-Eastern terms anyway), it didn't stop their problems because there simply weren't the jobs for them to go to once they graduated. So, maybe we should scrap the vote-pandering plans to provide even more educational opportunities to a group of people that seem determined to ignore them anyway, and instead look to spend the money on jobs for those that actually do want to get ahead.

  5. Atonnis
    Megaphone

    Bah...

    I say we just ship them off to a small island, give them basic tools, seeds and enough dried rations to survive one season and then leave them to it, then shoot anyone who tries to leave or visit the island.

  6. Cyberelic

    I've seen some of that...

    Catch them and have them out doing community service orders, digging ditches, clearing gutters and drains, plenty of waste grounds need clearing of rubbish, in fact plenty of city streets right now need cleaning up!

    I've seen some of that... and it basically costs more to clear up AFTER the CSO than before.

    Best answer is to just kill them, preferably slowly.

    (And as Arnie said, you do the politicians first)

    P.

  7. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    We've got a few navy vessels we've decommissioned...

    What says we load 'em up with convicted rioters, sail 'em somewhere a little chilly, then maroon them...?

    1. Darren Barratt

      won't work

      Many of them already live in Manchester.

  8. Diginerd
    FAIL

    Better idea.. Anyone want to start a counter petition?

    Vengeance may sound good but only makes matters worse. The core problems are a lack of employment and respect for how cushy life in the UK is. No matter how squalid and impoverished.  A more creative approach would be sentencing rioting looters to MANDATORY employment. Community service with a twist- a few months / years helping to rebuild <insert name of country> after a recent war and atrocities (or natural disaster) will provide material overseas aid, and teach the lesson that helping others in greater need than yourself is better than mindless violence fueled by materialistic greed. Maybe a few would apply those lessons when they come home and contribute to society. Finally, it would make one hell of a deterrent with a low number of reoffenders... Free suntan or not.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      The core problem is not

      a lack of employment, although it is certainly an issue. The real issue is a lack of parental control over their progeny. It's too easy to have children to get a bigger pay cheque and if that's the reason many people are having babies you gotta know they ain't gonna be great parents. The rest of your post is full of good ideas.

  9. Robert E A Harvey

    ...and down

    Oh look. The ePetition web site has gone down again.

  10. Jemma
    FAIL

    oh yeah, just brilliant

    This barely edges out the stupid cow I heard yesterday in a london hospital.

    "anyone goes out their door or is on the street after 7pm, the police shoot on sight..."

    Just going out to check the cars locked/still there/not a burning wreck...."

    cue the sound of 9mm H&K automatics and a huge lawsuit.

    One of the biggest reasons behind all this is the conservatives buggering about with the benefits system while the rich, well off, and the bankers get richer. To quote blackadder "Sir Talbot Buxomly MP, who supports hanging people for being poor".

    So yeah, im sure cutting benefits (which will harm many more than just the rioters, and given the polices ability when it comes to correct identification, thats another story) will really quell the growing anger, misery and hatred of the police, government, everyone else.

    "A masterly stroke if I may say so, prime minister... Your reputation is assured" gushed Sir Humphrey... Sotto voce "admittedly as the biggest british idiot since Elphinstone, but then its not my job on the line"

    "Pardon Humphrey?"

    "I said I'll just get the Minister for prisons on the line... Im sure Premier Inns have some spare capacity, after all there arent that many murderers we'd need to move..."

    "Good man..."

  11. spudmasterflex
    Go

    title here

    How about going round there council gaffs, smashing their shit up a bit, stealing there stuff they got on the dole money/looted etc set there house on fire.

    Scally fuckwits

  12. Stevie
    Joke

    Bah!

    Never should have demolished the Workhouses and Treadmills.

    Yoofs. Now *there's* a renewable resource. place is crawling with them and there always seems to be more where they came from.

  13. Adam T
    Coffee/keyboard

    100k means they will "consider" debating it.

    At the very least, it will be a useful Stupidity Gauge as to if it gets as far as a debate or not.

  14. Anonymous Coward
    FAIL

    Like the presumption that all antisocial behaviour...

    is carried out by council tenants and the calls for them to lose their homes. What the F makes people think that all the rioters where on benefits? How would this sanction work with those not on benefits? what empty their bank accounts and sack them? Like the armchair generals asking to nuke the Taliban, this is utter tosh enunciated and supported by knee-jerk buffoons. This is surely the reason the petition for a debate system is going to fail.

    1. Oninoshiko
      Thumb Up

      hrm..

      I realize you're being sarcastic, but I rather like that.

      Maybe rather then "empty their bank accounts" we can call it "pay for the damages they caused"

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        "we are all equal in the eyes of the law"

        As penalties in the justice system should affect those penalised equally , loss of benefits would equate to loss of job and clearing accrued savings. Benefits being calculated to the last ha'penny to leave you with no room for savings . (indeed my benefits rose at a rate of 10-15% of the increase charges for my care costs through the years '91-'95) It was really to illustrate how poorly thought through the petition was.

  15. mark l 2 Silver badge

    community service in frilly tutus

    With most of them being young and looking for 'respec' from their peers, make any found guilt do community service in public while wearing a pink frilly tutu. I suspect that the humiliation alone would be enough to discourage them from doing it again.

    As for taking away there benefit as others pointed out if they have no money for food they will just go out an rob again so give them food vouchers that can only be redeemed for food (not booze or cigs) and have it so there photo is printed on it so only they can use it and they cant just flogged it to there mate for cash.

    1. MJI Silver badge

      Pink tutus

      They are already wearing them!

      http://www.tumblr.com/photo/1280/8687102401/1/tumblr_lpntrmPG3W1r1qajl

  16. Anonymous Coward
    Thumb Down

    Meh ... vicious circle

    Remove benefits they commit more crime, more crime gets them more prison time, prison time is very expensive.

    As a taxpayer I reckon its cheaper for them to get their dole money than having to spend 2-3 grand a week keeping them in pokey -- which is like a holiday camp to them anyhow and where they just learn even more crime and make more underworld contacts.

    Death's too good for them, etc, etc ...

  17. Phil Endecott

    Bankers

    I think these people who are trashing "our" streets should face the same punishment as the bankers who trashed "our" economy.

    I mean, seriously, how many billions of damage have they done to shops? How does that compare to the billions of damage done by the bankers? (And if you think "that's different", try talking to someone who lost their job. Can you tell the difference between a boarded-up shop that's been foreclosed by its bank, or one that has been closed by a brick through its window? How many of each sort are there on YOUR local high street?)

    I think it's healthy for a democracy to be reminded, maybe once a decade or so, that its government and police function largely by the consent of the population, and if they piss people off too badly there will be violent consequences.

  18. Anonymous Coward
    Mushroom

    Mayor on the loose!

    The only thing loose is Boris Johnson's grip on the situation.

    If his performance in Clapham yesterday were Simon Cowell being given a cold welcome on the X-Factor, his career would be over.

    Somehow I think this is going to be a huge issue in London's Mayoral elections next year. Ken might well live up to an Arnold Schwarzenegger quote...

  19. H2Nick

    Outsource the sentence

    Jail them but outsource it.

    I hear Morroco has some nice ones...

    Less fun for the perps & cheaper for everyone else.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Outsource the Sentencing!

      Impose Sharia law

      Mayhaps?

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Outsourcing

      The Russians have plenty of suitable places. Any of the abandoned towns or villages would do - walls are not needed in places where the only way in or out is by air or a 500Km walk through Siberian forests. If they want to riot there, let them - they could burn down their own accommodation, although that might prove to be unwise when the temperature heads the wrong side of -40.

      1. Minophis
        Mushroom

        Re Outsourcing

        We could send them to the city Pripyat in the Ukraine.

        No ones using it any more and they could have endless fun pretending they were in that really cool flashback level from Modern Warfare 1.

        Nuclear explosion icon because of the radiation (which is perfectly safe (probably))

  20. BogBeast
    Flame

    Sod rubber bullets..

    They should be issuing live rounds..

    1. Elron Hubward

      Good idea..

      ..because letting the police play with live ammunition would never lead to any trouble would it?

      I mean, it's not like they might shoot someone leading to a protest that then turns into an orgy of looting and voilence is it now?

  21. Charles 9

    This goes to a bigger question.

    And it's a question no one in society seems to have even dared to ask:

    "What does society do with the rejects?"

    The problem with any form of test, evaluation, or even comparison is that you're going to--INEVITABLY--have people who don't measure up. So what do you do when you have people who have been (due to lack of intelligence, physical skill, moral character, or something else, or they're simply anti-social and gave society the finger) essentially judged not fit to contribute to society? Now, nature has an answer to that of course. So did Sparta. Unfortunately, most of western civilization seems leery of that kind of approach, but then the question rears itself again. If not left to the wolves, what do you do with them?

    1. Armando 123

      Previous solutions

      ... involved Australia and America. And sorry, we're full up.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Unhappy

        Yeah...

        Shame about that

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Angel

      Perhaps I'm being too kind, but

      You could try finding out why they're "rejects" and how to (re)integrate them into society. Unless someone is seriously mentally damaged through some genetic flaw, there's no real reason why they can't be helped. So, maybe we can't do much for some serial killers anytime soon, but it shouldn't be that hard to help the disaffected citizens that simply feel ostracized and under attack by society.

      1. Charles 9
        Devil

        Those wouldn't be rejects.

        The "disenfranchised" would probably not be considered rejects: rather as having some issue that needs to be corrected. When I speak of rejects, I speak of those who you have to realize simply cannot fit in: serial killers (which you mentioned), revolutionary idealists, and other people who, as I've put it before, give society the finger, Bras d'honneur, whatever; people too bent to set straight. How do you deal with people like that? And on a touchier note, what about the tragic people whose circumstance (think retardation or disability) makes their likelihood of being able to contribute productively very remote. I picked the icon because many would seem I am that way, but would be willing to call the hard life of the animal kingdom the spawn of Satan as well? And there's still the question itself to answer: "What does society do with the rejects?"

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Angel

          Re: Those wouldn't be rejects.

          The subtler part of my point was that most of those people you mentioned really are simply disenfranchised. Often severely so. Those with substantial mental impairments that keep them from coexisting with other living creatures probably can't be helped much anytime soon. However, most people that don't fit into society come to that position through their interactions with society and its deficits. A couple of those types you listed, such as the revolutionary idealists and people who give society the finger are the type who would have found that society is lacking and has turned its back on them first. Depending on the person, it may take some extraordinary effort to show them that not everyone is as horrid as others that they have already met and that they can use their desires to improve the world effectively by working with other people rather than simply trying to recreate a new world order.

          People that are physically handicapped are often easier to deal with, because they largely just need to understand that they can interact with the rest of society in meaningful ways. For the worst cases, this might mean that they need to use the internet and computers more for their productivity.

          While not my specialty, the mentally handicapped people I've met have all fallen into two categories. The first, you probably wouldn't even know was handicapped unless you were told. Those people can get along just fine for most tasks, though they have more trouble with some than the average person would. The second group is substantially handicapped and in this case they seem to be the type that wouldn't even notice that they don't really integrate into society very well. So, while they need someone to help them with many types of tasks, they're generally happy and don't make too many problems.

          The vast majority of problems come about because these individuals feel that they are not respected by their communities and that their contributions are not welcomed by the other members. Showing them that they can help other people and that there are many people out there that will treat them as human beings instead of animals goes a long ways towards reintegrating most of those types of people. Some of the best results at reforming hardened criminals has come from simply having them plant flowers in public gardens and letting them talk with the people that come by. Some individuals will have specific issues to deal with, but most of those are relatively easy to deal with once someone has built up enough trust with that individual.

          Truthfully, I don't think I've every met anyone who was too bent to set straight, though it would be infeasible for modern society to do so for many.

          The icon is and was for the sheer idealism of the posts.

          tl;dr: If people feel safe, productive and respected in their community, then they're unlikely to cause social problems in that community.

          1. Charles 9

            You may feel that way.

            But then you have people who would respond to "Hello, sir" with a finger and a bad word. People who, no matter what you do, just plain hate you (practically out of instinct). People who don't just feel they can't contribute to society but rather feel society is flat-out wrong (and wronging them). People who are willing to kill others and/or themselves to make a point. People who DON'T WANT to contribute to society (and indeed, feel ready, willing, and even EAGER to tear it all down). Somewhere along the line, someone comes along that no amount of persuasion will "correct" as long as he/she is alive. What do you do with him/her?

    3. Uncle Slacky Silver badge
      Trollface

      Soylent Green?

      As title...

  22. Haku

    No Escape (1994)

    In this film, convicts are dumped on a remote island with no guards, no help & no rules except one: try to escape and you get shot by patrolling boats.

    Well, I'm taking a collection to buy a remote island, wanna chip in?

    1. IanPotter
      Mushroom

      No, Escape from New York

      Or in this case London. Lets just build a sodding great wall right round the bloody place and herd in all the bankers (not hard, already there), politicians (ditto), royalty (same), and all the rioting chavs and let them fight it out. Winners get to eat the losers! We can sell the TV rights to the Septics and pay off the national debt in the process...

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