Four illegal ways to sort out the Euro finance crisis

How about the legal solution?

Chase down the greek tax dodgers, make them pay up, use the money to pay off the country's debts. I seem to remember seeing figures somewhere that indicated they'd have money left over.

down with rates

What would be the consequences of scrapping the idea of a 'national' interest rate - wouldn't local rates encourage money to slosh around between the regions - or is that the idea - to stop speculation at the expense of regional economies?

rules?

In England (and i think in Germany) we love rules and regulations, we follow them no matter what, however Greece is quite corrupt, Spain is totally corrupt and ignores most EU rulings that are handed down, not sure about Italy ... why is it that their lack of modernisation in economic transparency should be paid for by everyone else.

It is going to be harsh on us northern european taxpayers no matter what, so why not fu*k off the failing euro countries, let them devalue their currency and accept the fall out, its not like its going to be much less painless to keep propping them up.

Thanks Tim

Nice summary of the options there, very clear.

One thing to add on core vs periphery is that on the periphery (especially Italy, Greece and Spain), these problems were compounded by lack of oversight. Not only were interest rates too low for these countries, which encouraged people and businesses to borrow money to either speculate or to spend what they couldn't afford, but governments had no apparent interest in other ways to restrain their economies from overheating (eg by limiting planning permission on development, since building was one of the prime movers of the bubbles).

In the case of the Greek government I believe they were also <st>falsifying<\st> creatively accounting their reports to the ECB

Too late now, but...

I said from the inception that the Euro was misconceived, because it would lead to exactly the problem faced today. It would have been far better to create the Euro as an overlay currency, backed by the underlying currencies. That way, exchange rates between, say, the drachma and the Euro could fluctuate, bringing poor management home to roost and making the Euro a more stable currency.

@rse

Just another way of making the poor give what little they have to the rich. Tell the bond holders to fcuk off. use the payments you are not now paying to pay your workers and start again.

They won't do this because the politico's _are_ part of the rich, along with the press who report how paying more and taking of the ordinary worker is the only way.

Re: @rse

Socialist bloody claptrap. Those bond holders you are telling to fuck off, include YOUR pension company, and probably a hundred other entities which you rely on, and would be well and truly screwed if they went under.

It isn't the currency, it is the mindset

The French work fairly hard, the Germans are notorious for their efficiency, the Scandinavians get on with the job. Spain, however, is noted for the mañana approach, and Radio 4 reports from Greece imply corruption, laziness, and avoiding taxes are a way of life. How do we know the latest bail-out isn't just going to be pissed away?

The fault isn't with the euro, the fault is with the attitudes of some in the euro zone. These attitudes must change, or it'll be a cycle of rinse&repeat...

One logical solution...

I never know whether to take you guys and girls seriously or not; because if I do take you seriously then I hope that the folks that advocate killing or destroying never end up anywhere near me in real life; you are a total waste of brain power.

Anyway, instead of illegal solutions to man-made problems, how about man-made legal solutions? They are much easier and much more human friendly; and the last time I looked you lot are mostly human.

The four solutions mentioned in the article are “illegal” under the terms of the system constructed by humans to govern the process of amalgamating the Euro Zone in monetary terms. That is the only terms of reference by which they are “illegal”. The act of changing the rules to protect or resurrect the, obviously, failing system is to fail to admit that the system itself is at fault.

Therefore the logical solution is to change the underlying system. However, that’s a conclusion that you cannot reach because you are unable to think beyond the learned “fact” that the system is “inherently” human and omnipresent. You are unable to conceive of a different way.

So the vast majority of logical and wonderful minds in this forum turn to trying to fix the system, which we note is broken, in terms of the system, as opposed to turning their time to constructing a better, more pro-human, system. Your illogical conclusions would be funny if it were not that you lot are supposed to be the most logical folks on the planet. Fault diagnostics. Programming. Infrastructure design. Project management ( ermm…okay.. ;) )

When you understand the system is the problem, and that is laid bare here, http://www.realityinfo.org if you follow the arrows, then solutions follow. Solutions that are “not illegal”, are not “anti-human” and that do not server to prop up a system that is inherently flawed until the next time it breaks down.

Whatever you choose to do, do it with peace.

Peace.

PS. Sorry to the moderator for, again, donating this link as an aid to rational thinking. I hope you forgive the intrusion. We sell nothing there. All is free. It is Open Source and it is only an information portal.

PPS. Blue face because this one may need you to think a bit....Though maybe it'd help if you were not degree educated...

A good synopsis of the Euro area's inherent problems....

But what does this have to do with tech/IT/science?

While the goal of European solidarity and peace is extremely laudible, I feel sorry for anyone stuck in the EU because the way it is and has been run practically assures that even EU subjects (and I use "subjects" intentionally) outside the Euro will end up feeling cheated and robbed.

Or did I miss something?

Surely the Torygraph has more enough space for this kind of polemic? But if you are going to quote The Econmist, today's Bagehot post is an interesting read. http://www.economist.com/blogs/bagehot/2011/07/britain-and-eu

Everyone has missed the obvious.

When PIGS get their snouts in the trough trouble follows.

The real problem

The real problem is stupid people. People who don't know what they're doing, but they're getting paid for what they're doing, so they're professionals. Who must know what they're doing. They don't, they're still just stupid people who don't know what they're doing.

You see them everywhere. You see them when you're in traffic, you see them when you're at work (I'm in sales, quite successfully but the other day the big chief claimed sales is not a priority for our company), you also see them in politics and the economy.

The solution is not to convince these people about what should be done. The solution is of course to take stupid people out of the discussion, send them to the kiddie table and let grownups work out a plan to get us out of this mess.

So the question is: who are these stupid people? We'll, they're the ones who set up the euro zone. If all the solutions are "illegal", who made this illegal? Find out who. Put a rubber stamp on their forehead "stupid" and gag them for four years.

If they refuse the shut up, kill them.

Stupid people are the curse of the human race. They do much more harm than evil people, simply because there are so many of them.

Let the market decide interest rates!

"Interest rates were about right in the boom and are about right now for the eurozone as a whole."

Interest rates should not be set for the country as a whole by a committee of central planners. The free market is perfectly capable of determining rates, according to the time preferences of borrowers and savers. Private lenders will naturally account for the varying ability of borrowers to repay.

Central banking is the problem.

An 'If I where in charge' moment

It's a back to basics moment.

People not working should be made to plant crops etc. It may sound strange in a developed country but less reliance on outsources will reduce costs further.

The remaining people out of work should carry out other essential jobs that we currently rely on other countries to do, or private businesses, like laying roads. Basics that will keep the country operational.

Introduce some sort of passport tax, people will flee when times are hard, if you want a passport you should pay a passport tax, nothing massive but a enough to make people think twice about leaving and for those who do, for all the time they have a passport (which they can usually only get from their home country) they need to pay a tax on it.

Slash money spent on looking after prisoners, why should a killer doing life have Sky TV when we're going through the toughest times? Bed, Bread, Water. You get sick while you're inside, unlucky because we won't be wasting money making you better.

Ban smoking/drinking for none workers. My tax pays for bums to smoke, and then their bills when they're in hospital. Make cigarettes and alcohol licenced products. If you don't have a job you don't have a licence.

Finally, maybe harsh to say but lending money to 3rd world countries doesn't help them, there are individual cases where a few families are saved but the fact is there are too many people compared to the available food / water. Bring a homeless man a sandwich he'll live for a day more. We're buying a lot of sandwiches.