back to article Fukushima fearmongers are stealing our Jetsons future

As the situation at Japan's Fukushima Daiichi nuclear powerplant slowly winds down, the salient facts remain the same as they have been throughout: nobody has suffered or will suffer any radiological health consequences. Economic damage and inconvenience resulting from the quake's effects on nuclear power have been significant, …

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    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      sadly

      Sadly plenty of idiots refuse to understand that if we used fast breed reactors and fuel reprocessing the amount of left over fuel would be significantly smaller and easier too manage.

      Nuclear is an essential component to a balanced energy policy.

      Also something that's commonly forgotten is Japan has almost no natural resources and is pretty rubbish for renewable power except maybe geothermal power, however the whole high geological activity in the region likely makes that difficult.

      Japan has 53 nuclear reactors.

      A large coal plant needs 10,000 tonnes of coal a day (there about)

      In 2007 to run the coal plants it had, it needed to import 186 million tonnes of coal.

      Japan currently imports 7,310,000 tonnes a year, the largest gas importer , 2,630,000 tonnes of that from Indonesia who have stated they intend on reducing that figure to less than a fourth.

      They import the 3rd largest amount of oil after China and America.

      So simply put Japan doesn't have very many choices.

      Sadly people are generally stupid and go out of their way to make nuclear less efficient by spreading weird paranoia about weapons grade material falling into "the wrong hands", which is retarded as it isn't hard to track weapons grade material. So people are stuck having to store tonnes of nuclear material that could be used instead.

    2. 42
      Grenade

      Sorry Mate

      Your wasting your time. This is Lewis Page's one stop pro nuke shop, drowning in pro nuke, anti green shills.

      If you want common sense you're in the wrong place.

      1. Destroy All Monsters Silver badge
        Thumb Up

        No U

        10 points for using "pro nuke" as a cussword

        50 points for using "pro nuke" as a cussword twice, in the same sentence

        100 points for using "anti green" (is this quantum chromodynamics?)

        1000 points for using "shills"

        5000 points for suggesting that "common sense" is where anti-nuke, pro-green, non-shills reside

  1. Hermes Conran
    Alert

    Lewis' analysis

    is sounding more and more like the scruffy guy in the high street with the can of diamond white. He still makes more sense than Orlowski though....

  2. Anonymous Coward
    FAIL

    Remember the documentaries from the 1950s?

    I'm remembering the "Godzilla" and "Them" documentaries. Also the Disney "Mr. Atom Is Your Friend" text book and similar.

    Is Lewis the anti-Daily Mail? It's all too one-sided.

  3. Anonymous Coward
    Stop

    Enough is enough

    As a clinical (radiation) oncologist, I understand a fair bit about the risks associated with radiation. Can I ask you to please stop saying a burn from ionising radiation is a minor event. It isn't. The dose of radiation needed to cause an acute skin reaction can vary, but would never be "small" or "minor". Sustained in an incontrolled way, with unknown or mixed radioactive sources, this event could have been fatal. Thankfully, they didn't trip over. We don't know what the increased cancer risk to these people is, but it is going to be significant.

    As for your main "nuclear power is safe" argument - I actually agree. This was a freak event, and the outcome has not been a disaster, but please stop playing down the risk the workers in the plant are taking, and the harm some of them have come to.

    1. jimmy
      Thumb Up

      page and highlander please read the above

      at last a sane opinion. and now shut up and please stop your ridiculous arguments about how no one will die from this. no one knows and quite possibly no one will ever know. what we do know is anyone that says they do know (ie you two gibbons) are talking complete tripe!

      1. Captain Thyratron

        You sure showed them!

        And yet you have nothing to say about the guy who fell off a crane and died at Fukushima Daini. The point here isn't that nothing bad happened to any workers at Fukushima Daiichi--and I thought this was pretty obvious in the article. It's that what has happened to those workers--and only a few of them--barely amounts to squat as far as industrial accidents go. Apply some perspective and knock it off with the exclamation points.

      2. Highlander

        I read above

        I simply pointed out that the three gentlemen who'd been exposed to contaminated water (including the burns on their lower legs, had been discharged. Whether or not they subsequently develop cancer, I can't tell you, and nor can anyone else - until they do. But then I can't tell you how many people exposed to dust in a mine today will die as a direct result of that dust, but I know they exist.

        They're not going to be discharged from hospital if they are in any immediate danger of anything, especially considering the level of focus currently on Japan's nuclear energy and the affects on those at Fukushima. I'm certain that they will be followed - medically - for a long time to come, and if in the fullness of time one or more of them develop cancer, I'm sure that someone will try to determine whether it is as a result of working at Fukushima or not. That will be difficult to show since the contamination was external.

        At no time, Jimmy, have I ever sought to diminish the courage and sacrifice that is implicit in working the site of a nuclear incident. The men working there are enduring higher risks than any of us, and I think about that every day, just as my heart literally aches over the 10's of thousands dead and injured and the 100's of thousands still displaced from their homes, many without homes to go back to. I've never lost sight of any of that. nor will I lose sight of the risks that the workers at Fukushima take. What I will not do is overstate the risks or make worst case assumptions every time something happens. That doesn't mean everything's rosey and wonderful, far from it. But instead of believing that we're all doomed I decided to use my head, my education and my ability to research to learn and understand and keep up to date on the matter since the media was doing such a shite job in general.

        How dare you even imply that I or Lewis or anyone else doesn't care about the men and women working to recover things in Japan, especially those at the Fukushima daiichi Facility. How dare you demean the deaths of the thousands who have perished by focusing your attentions on the potential, but not actual death of some unknown number of people who may, or may not have been exposed to elevated (but not lethal) doses of radiation while working to prevent further loss of life. did it ever cross your mind that the reason the people working at Fukushima are doing so is to protect all those vulnerable people in the earthquake and Tsunami disaster zone?

        Now, if it's reported that the men who were contaminated and subsequently released do have lasting consequences that can be quantified, it will of course mean that at least three people would have suffered a consequence of the radiation. But at this time, as this is written, that is not the case, here we are three weeks after the original event and still we have not had any reported cases of radiation sickness or any other significant radiation related injury - bar these three men who have been discharged from hospital. So, please stop YOUR ridiculous arguments and start paying attention to fact instead of ignoring fact by assuming the worst. What's more ridiculous Jimmy, pointing out the factual information that no one has yet suffered a significant injury as a result of Fukushima Daiichi; or constantly whining that even though no one has been hurt they may all potentially DIE from radiation...? I'm basing everything I write and think about this in fact, science and reason. You appear to be basing everything on presumption, assumption, supposition and emotion.

        As you your self say "no one knows and quite possibly no one will ever know". That is a fundamental truth about everything we do in life. If that's the most damning thing you can say about this, then the word ridiculous appears to apply more to you, than me.

        1. jimmy
          Thumb Up

          agreed

          Highlander, I actually agree with everything you say. I also think it's tragic that this issue has overshadowed the real disaster in Japan.

          What i disagree with is the polar opposite opinion this article takes and to some extent your defence of that. you appear to be 'antiscaremongerers'. As bad as the press but the complete opposite.

          The article states there will be NO adverse health effects from this (implied for eternity too). This is simply untrue. Granted the numbers will most likely be insignificant in relation to coal mining accidents, tsunamis, back ground radiation levels, starvation etc etc.

          Physics dictates that there is a chance a particle from one of these reactors could be taken on global wind currents and be breathed in by an unsuspecting person many miles away. The chance is tiny and probably unmeasurable but certainly not zero. As there are 6 billion pairs of lungs on this planet it effectively increases that chance. And yes i know more people die from background radiation or crossing the road or whatever than this will ever cause.

          i was trying to point out that radiation is not an on off thing. it doesn't suddenly start causing cancer at a certain level. a low level exposed to a huge number of people will cause more ill health than a higher level to a small number of people. that's just the way it works.

          so yes i agree with what you say and the press has acted irresponsibly by scaremongering but there is no need to go and do the same but the complete opposite. Balance is what i'm after i guess.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Dead Vulture

            Re: agreed

            "Highlander, I actually agree with everything you say. I also think it's tragic that this issue has overshadowed the real disaster in Japan."

            Has it? Just because the most vocal contributors to these forums keep saying this doesn't make it true. I mean, do any of you people coming out with "It's distracting! Stop it!" actually read or watch the rest of the news? This attitude that "the MSM [for Christ's sake stop using this term, people] is only telling us what they want us to think, but I can't stop watching" is simply the whining of the lazy which I notice is then projected onto everyone else with the sentiment that "it's not me I'm worried about, it's the stupid people!"

            Like the way people emulate their role models, leading to people braying at each other Clarkson-style because they saw it on Top Gear, it's fascinating to watch people adopt the Page-style hyping of the notion that "everyone else is so stupid, they ruin it for us [supposedly] smart people", so that Page gets to trot out the "people hate nuclear spaceships" fallacy again when he's mostly referring to radioisotope generators which only the hardcore Greenpeace people really have a problem with, and then everyone apes him with their "stupid little people afraid of progress" bullshit as if they're somewhat smarter or better.

            Some of you seem so intent on projecting supposedly errant behaviour onto everyone else that it's tempting to think that you actually behave that way yourself and that this is some kind of absolution ritual. And Page trotting out the same tired assertions is just like that irritating kid at school who finished the test before everyone else and spent the rest of it irritating people, ultimately failing the test himself because he thought he was smarter than everyone else and could afford to show off about it.

            1. Highlander

              Well, that'll explain why everyone I work with...

              ...regurgitates the same fictional doom laden headlines that the mass media and news organizations are pushing. People in general - the ones around me every day - believe every word that news organizations like Fox spew forth. The fact that those organizations sensationalize, mis-report, lie, and spin the news is the reason people still think that these reactors will go into some kind of China Syndrome meltdown. Some balance is required, and I'm glad at least one news organization (which in essence The Register is) has the courage to buck the trend and actually report fact with intelligent analysis.

    2. Andydaws

      Point taken, but....define "significant"

      What's the arising from the radiology treaments you presumably prescribe - involving doses to non-tumourous tissue an order of magnitude higher than those that these chaps have undergone? I've not seen much to suggest it's over 1-2% incremental risk compared to the general population.

      1. Dagg Silver badge
        Boffin

        @Andydaws - "significant" is much higher

        Just compare the increased level of skin cancers caused by sun exposure in Australia compared to the US, UK and Canada. Australia has 4 TIMES the level (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skin_cancer).

        If you consider that the rate of irradiation that the plant workers have under gone I would suggest that the rate is considerably higher than that from sunburn.

        So, if you consider the "general population rate" to be like the UK and the plant worker rate like australia the significant rate is 25%!

  4. Munchausen's proxy
    Pint

    Solar safe?

    Solar is 'safe'? Are you kidding? The whole point behind the solar energy movement is to

    collect and concentrate as much THERMONUCLEAR RADIATION as possible! How can anyone

    call this safe?

    How many people will die of melanoma in the coming years, sacrificed to the insatiable greed of

    the solar companies, with their armies of unwitting dupes posting their marketing points in every forum they can reach and ignoring (or covering up) the consequences?

    1. vlc

      Misleading comparison

      You imply that we should shun exposure to the sun. But the fact is if you have low exposure to the sun, the lack of vitamin D alone would kill you. As anyone who keeps pet reptiles will know, no sunlight equals death; same applies to humans. Lack of sufficient sunlight may have killed off the dinosaurs too. You should not compare solar radiation which comes with beneficial properties, with the radiation from a nuclear plant, which is a very un-natural form of radiation. I'm certain you can't make Vitamin D from that.

      I'm pro solar and pro nuclear. What has happened the power-plants in Japan is a very serious tragedy that could impact negatively on the whole planet. Those who try to play down the impact are in denial of the fact that it could be extremely serious. But that does not mean that we should not pursue that energy source; we just need to get better at it.

      Nuclear can deliver the the shear volume of power we need, but solar makes it feasible for individuals and small groups to be energy producers; democratising and diversifying the supply of energy.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        FAIL

        @vlc

        Please carefully re-read the posting you are commenting on and then re-read it imagining someone is taking the piss. Then, as a final step face-palm yourself.

  5. Anonymous Coward
    Flame

    Anyone against nuclear should...

    Anyone genuinely against nuclear power should stop driving their cars or heating their houses with gas as production / use / emissions from those kill far more and do more damage.

    Everyone should own a horse / bike and plant trees to harvest to heat their homes.

    1. The Grinning Duck
      Badgers

      No, no, no

      Not horses. I'm scared of horses. I reckon a horse could eat a man in less than a minute, if it were so inclined. And given that we've been jumping on their backs for centuries, I'm pretty sure an equine revolution isn't far off. Once they get on facebook, it's all over.

      I'm ok with bikes though.

      1. Bob H
        Badgers

        @Duck

        LMAO! "Once they get on facebook, it's all over"

  6. sT0rNG b4R3 duRiD
    Grenade

    Rhetoric

    ...much? :P

    While needless and witless scaremongering is unwise, some caution is obviously wise in a situation like this. Lives are at stake here. Both, the people in the midst of this disaster and people who live near nuclear plants to come.

    There is a lot to be learnt from this disaster, and I believe we have only begun the first steps in comprehending it.

    Demagoguery on either side should be avoided for now, I would think.

    From the tone of the article, unfortunately you come across as.... well... I leave it to the readers.

  7. Forget It
    Dead Vulture

    throw an anagram into the mix

    nuclear option === unclear potion

  8. Glenn 4
    Grenade

    Page's paystub ?

    Way too much nuclear apologist here, yaya coal is dirty and nuculer is misunderstood. I understand this facts are hard to come by this early on, TMI was not fully understood five years after the meltdown when they cut the damaged vessel open.

    Bottom line for me is any failure to cool results in a dangerous situation, ie human failure, ie business as usual, shit happens. Unfortunately when shit happens nuclear it can happen for a very long time.

  9. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Really? Another 3 pages of the same old......

    Why not write something interesting/different about Fukushima, You have already informed us time and time again that this is a total non story, totally uniteresting, 100% sure no possible deaths or even minor sun burns can ever occur. Do we really need another 3 pages of your rehashed ranting and raving?

    How about a look at how much this is all going to cost and if nuclear really adds up.

    1. Belvedere Mulholland

      You only need to read the post below...

      ...to see why Lewis Page's sober tripagulous reiteration is necessary.

  10. Anonymous Coward
    Dead Vulture

    El Reg used to have a reputation for facts, not propaganda

    1/ Plutonium is coming from Reactor #3 which used MOX for fuel (mix of plutonium and uranium, with 2-8% plutonium), so PLEASE check for the facts before writing articles..... The fact that it leaked out, is bad news, as leaks do not seal on their own, they only get worst, and plutonium is highly toxic to humans and all forms of life.

    2/ It looks like at least 4 reactors in Japan need to be permanently sealed in concrete, and a large area will be lost for human habitation in Japan for at least a couple of generations to come. Latest reports on the issue state that by now, Japan's nuclear problem is worst then Chernobil, with a big part of the blame going to the power plant management who decided to store a lot more spend fuel on site then the plant's designs called for (25x the amount of nuclear fuel available in Chernobil). This is something not even mentioned in the article.

    http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2011/03/amount-of-radioactive-fuel-at-fukushima.html

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1371793/Japan-nuclear-crisis-Fukushima-plant-entombed-concrete-radiation-leak.html

    3/ The story is not done yet - when (looks we may be past the "if" stage) melted fuel hits water you can expect a big steam explosion, and a lot will depend on which way the wind blows at the time. If anything, the media is NOT reporting the full extent of the problem (and for good reason, as people already leave Tokyo and you do not want Japan's economy to slow even more).

    http://blogs.knoxnews.com/munger/2011/03/ex-sandia-engineer-talks-about.html

    4/ One of the much talked about terror scenarios is an attack on the spent fuel storage facilities, and a "radiologic weapon". This is exactly what is going on in Japan, at a huge scale, with spent fuel rods exposed to the elements, and some of them converted to dust and blown away (look at the photos of the damaged buildings), plus contaminated water going into the sea and water tables. The breach of the containment pressure vessel in at least one of the reactors makes the situation even more "interesting", specially for the teams fighting the issue. I am not aware of any other kind of power plant which may create so much mayhem for the population in the area, except for broken dams for the guys living downstream, but a 30+Km radius probably beats the area affected by any dam by a large margin.

    5/ I have friends who were expats in Japan and left the country with their families and are not going back. They talk about food and water shortages, and rolling blackouts in Tokyo (no heat, no elevators, no light for the stairways). There is a significant flux of people who are getting out of Japan, and they are the ones needed to keep operations going for the trans-national companies they work for. I have yet to see in El Reg a real analysis of the impact of the events in Japan on the rest of the world - the link below is a good start:

    http://www.eetimes.com/electronics-news/4214018/Japan-quake--Tracking-the-status-of-fabs-in-wake-of-disaster What it all means is a severe hit to the worldwide recovery, maybe (some say likely) a push into a new down cycle. A lot of people seem to be ignorant of how many products Japan used to make and is no longer making, due to the tsunami and energy shortages. You cannot run a fab with rolling blackouts, and there are some parts which are only made in Japan (high temp lytics, some kinds of mold compound / epoxy and chip packages, specific ASICs and chips used in automotive controllers for Toyota, Honda, Subaru, etc.). For some electronic parts, Japan is not sole source, but has a significant volume (flash, opto-electronics, tantalum caps, ceramic caps and crystals for automotive applications, etc.), so prices will go up and shortages are already impacting operations worldwide (SSD and DRAM prices are also likely to go up). In US, GM already closed a plant due to Japan related shortages, and so did Honda US, Toyota, Subaru, and I understand that the list is going longer, not shorter. Real issue is the domino effect - for one part you cannot get from Japan, you cannot make a car, and the suppliers for all other parts have to stop production as well, idle their workers, their sub-suppliers, and nobody makes any money in the process. I have not seen yet an US automotive engine controller without at least one part made in Japan.

    To say the events in Japan have been overplayed by the media is idiotic, to put it mildly.

    Yes, it could have been worst, but at the very minimum, Japan will have to reconsider its emergency procedures for nuke plants - things went wrong, and no, a nuke plant in an earthquake prone area is NOT a good idea, no matter what. People may also look a lot closer at having second sources for pretty much all their raw materials (reversing the trend toward single sourcing to maximize volume and beat down the price).

    1. Alan Johnson

      hysterical nonsense

      Your whole post simply reinforce sthe point that nucelar fears are exagerrated past th epoint at which they ar irrational to hysterical levels:

      1. Oneof teh safest things about nuclear energy is that radio isotopes can be tracked and identified in tiny quantities. Tiny quantities of plutonium are not toxic in any normal sense.

      2. There is no t reason except irrational hysteria why any land need be lost from human habitation except the site of the power plant itself and this shoudl continue to be used as a power plant.

      3. There is absolutely no chance of a catastrophic explosion at this point

      4. A radiologic or dirty bomb is a fantasy. Analysis has been performed which suggest it would be no more fatal than an ordinary bomb using the same explosives. This is why the major powers do not have them they are completely pointless while being difficult to make and easy to detect.

      5. Yes the tsunami has been a catstrophic event to Japan which rather proves the point that the tsunami is the story and nuclear power is not.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Flame

        more nonsense

        "Tiny quantities of plutonium are not toxic in any normal sense." WTF are you smoking?

        Plutonium is one of the deadliest heavy metals. And that's before we get into its radilogical hazards.

        1. Captain Thyratron

          Read it again: "tiny"

          Yes, it's toxic as all hell. So are lots of things that we only worry about when they become concentrated enough for their toxicity to become apparent. Why don't you start worrying about selenium, while you're at it?

        2. Destroy All Monsters Silver badge
          Headmaster

          It's the inverse, I hear

          "Plutonium is one of the deadliest heavy metals. And that's before we get into its radilogical hazards."

          The dangers from getting a good dose from inhaled Pu alpha emitter are way larger than chemical toxy.

        3. Anonymous Coward
          Happy

          Not so fast....

          Plutonium's toxicity is much less than commonly stated. Long term studies of people who have been exposed to plutonium either in weapons manufacturing, fuel reprocessing and bomb detonations have found no excess deaths due to its toxicity. It is most certainly not the poisonous substance on Earth as Ralph Nader hyped it, it may in fact be less toxic than caffeine.

          Plutonium is an alpha emitter, and in theory can produce a wide range of cancers if ingested or inhaled; but once again, long term studies of people exposed to plutonium particles have failed to show a significant risk.

          However, plutonium in the environment is a sign that other nasties which are biologically active and have much higher radioactivities are probably also slopping around in the outside world.

          The Pu-238 found at two locations at Fukushima is almost certain to have come from the reactor rather than a bomb test because Pu-238 is only likely to have been made in a reactor by one of two processes:

          U-235 + n + n -> U-237

          U-237 beta decays to Np-237 over a period of days

          Np-237 + n -> Np-238

          Np-238 beta decays to Pu-238

          There is no time in a bomb explosion for significant numbers of intermediate neptunium to be created and to undergo beta decay so Pu-238 is a good indicator of reactor plutonium.

          The second method for making Pu-238 is for Pu-239 to be hit by a fast neutron that rather than fissioning the nucleus ejects a second neutron. This can happen in bomb detonations, but it will not create significant amounts of Pu-238 to affect the isotope ratio.

          Clearly there is a leak either in the reactor itself or in the spent fuel pond.

          1. This post has been deleted by its author

      2. Charles Thornton

        Mr Happy Juice

        1. Tiny quantities of plutonium are not toxic in any normal sense.

        Well you breathe some in then. Second thoughts, you and Ann Coulter breathe some

        2. The Japanese are going to entomb it; that's why they are buying a Putzmeister SRS concrete pump from Ashmore concrete in Georgia. As for a permanent exclusion zone, I'm sure you're right about that, I hope the Japanese government listens to you - see also 4.

        3. Agreed, but there is the probability of unpredictable criticality from the corium dumped in the drywell - and releases will only be direct into the water table if, as is likely, one or more drywells are cracked.

        4. Of course radioactive dust is not a problem - tell that to the 5100 smallholders in Wales who are still not allowed to sell their sheep because of Chernobyl. And tell those namby-pamby Japanese to man up and collect the dead from the tsumami in the 20 km radiological exclusion zone. While you're at it tell the Americans to allow their troops closer than 90 km from Fukushima, do they want to live forever?

        You might like to tell the Chinese that the contamination on those ships they turned away is good for them

        5. The tsumami is a catastrophe and the only thing keeping keeping it from being worse are the people dealing with a partial meltown and at least 1 containment that is releasing contaminated water into the ground.

        1. Andydaws

          Charles Thornton - You've obviously missed the

          fact that they've been using long-reach concrete pumps to deliver water to the fuel ponds.

          "Agreed, but there is the probability of unpredictable criticality from the corium dumped in the drywell "

          Maybe you could explain how that comes about? Given that any fuel that made it as far as the drywell would be in the thousands of centrigrade temperature range - and that thermal fuel can go critical without moderation. If you can think of a way to have molten fuel with sufficient water mixed in to provide sufficient moderation to get enough neutron flux into the thermal range, I'm all ears.

          Because, unless you do, I'll be forced to conclude you've been reading the "Mail".

          Also, what's your evidence that drywells are cracked? The only containment damage there's any reason to consider likely is in the R2 suppression chamber, not the drywell.

          Incidentally, DEFRA last surveyed the remaining Welsh "restricted" sites in 2008. It found no sheep at all at the contamination limit. BUt oddly, the civil servants who administer the restrictions decided the restictions needed to be continued....

        2. Chris Miller

          Where to start with Charles?

          1 & 4. The toxicity of Arsenic is well known. 1g is about (dependent on body weight) enough to kill someone - it will definitely make them seriously ill. So, would I be prepared to ingest a milligram of Arsenic? Well, if there were sufficient benefit (someone wanted to pay me enough or a doctor prescribed it to treat some ailment) - yes. What about a nanogram? Well, I probably ingest that much every day, coal power stations chuck fairly significant amounts into the atmosphere.

          Plutonium's chemical toxicity is similar to Arsenic or Lead - it's a heavy metal - but of course it's radioactive too. In theory a single alpha particle from a single Pu atom could (if you were extremely unlucky) give you cancer and kill you. But so could 10 seconds of sunlight or a day-trip to Cornwall or an airline flight or a chest X-ray. We normally undertake such activities without a care, because we perceive them as delivering sufficient benefits. But nuclear power has benefits too. It allows us to turn on the lights and post nonsense on elReg. This is particularly true for countries like Japan that have limited access to fossil fuels.

          If you can supply it, I'd be very happy to eat Welsh lamb - the limits that make its sale illegal were set for political not medical reasons.

          2. The 70m boom of the concrete pump is going to be used to deliver water more accurately and safely onto the spent fuel pools. If the Japanese merely wanted to entomb the reactor, I'm sure they have plenty of concrete pumps of their own.

    2. Highlander

      Now that you've regurgitated the mass media reports, do you feel better?

      The four reactors will be decommissioned, not buried. Burying the reactors would simply stall the process of dealing with them, and in the event of another large quake, probably be rather pointless in any case. It's far safer to actually decommission the reactors and remove them.

      The levels of plutonium found are below background, and may or may not represent fuel since the reactions inside the reactor can produce extremely small quantities of Plutonium as a fission product. If the fuel was exposed and the Plutonium was from the reactor's fuel, where is the corresponding Uranium? There ought to be a whole lot more of that than Plutonium if this material came from the reactor fuel - and as far as I can tell from all the reports from the IAEA, TEPCO et al, that hasn't happened.

      The story isn't done yet, but the reactors themselves are not in a state that allows them to act as you describe. The cores are still hot - physically and radiologically, but not hot enough to flash water to steam. Look up the concept of decay heat.

      Regarding the spent fuel rods, they can't actually get hot enough to melt, even if completely exposed to air. The casings would become damaged, but you wouldn't have a molten soup of radioactive material as a result.

      People abandoning Japan at the time of it's greatest need should be utterly ashamed of themselves. No one has said thta the events of the earthquake or Tsunami or resulting rolling power outages and other aspects of the aftermath have been overstates. Lewis and others are suggesting that the events at Fukushima Daiichi have been overstated, and they have been, many, many times in many ways. The resulting public apprehension, fear, panic and paranoia is a major issue, and results not from the actual risks and effects of what is happening at Fukushima but from the scare stories and outright untruths being pushed through the mass media, and furthered by folks like you.

    3. Daren Nestor

      well

      How much of this is due to, y'know, one of the largest earthquake/tsunami combos on record?

      And using the daily mail as a source? Really?

      Two power plant sites were shut down due to the aforementioned natural disaster, this has led to power shortages - hence the blackouts. There will be more impact from the evacuation than from the radiation and hysteria means that the cleanup will be immeasureably longer. Body recovery is already slowed, and the levels of radiation deemed unsafe are very low.

      It's a serious situation, requiring careful management. It should not be the cause for what is rapidly becoming global hysteria.

    4. Destroy All Monsters Silver badge
      Flame

      Gloom and Doom Reloaded

      "melted fuel hits water you can expect a big steam explosion"

      If Saudis drop a plane on it you can also expect a big steam explosion but it ain't gonna happen.

      "a large area will be lost for human habitation in Japan for at least a couple of generations to come. Latest reports on the issue state that by now, Japan's nuclear problem is worst then Chernobil"

      No. Just no.

      "They talk about food and water shortages, and rolling blackouts in Tokyo. There is a significant flux of people who are getting out of Japan, and they are the ones needed to keep operations going for the trans-national companies they work for. "

      A little discomfort due to an Earthquake and people take the highway, And where are they going and why?

      "radiologic weapon This is exactly what is going on in Japan, at a huge scale, with spent fuel rods exposed to the elements, and some of them converted to dust and blown away (look at the photos of the damaged buildings)"

      Please advise about the physical process that would make such a thing happen and any indication that this did indeed happen. Looking at photos is not sufficient. Wouldn't a large area be MOX covered?

      "What it all means is a severe hit to the worldwide recovery, maybe (some say likely) a push into a new down cycle."

      We have been out of the down cycle? I think we are just at the start of the real one. No, really.

    5. Shane Orahilly
      Stop

      I'm not surprised you want to remain anonymous.

      Citing the Mail as a source could cost you the respect of the free-thinking world.

    6. AndyC
      FAIL

      Hahahahahahahaha

      1) maybe correct, but did you actually read how much they'd detected? The same level as normal background plutonium. So nothing much to get excited about.

      2) Bigger than Chernobyl? What rubbish have you been reading? Oh yes, you included a couple of blog posts and a link to the Daily Mail (that considers EVERYTHING to be bad for you!) Large area lost to human habitation? Nope, wrong again. Rainfall will disperse that activity until you won't be able to detect it in a year or two's time.

      3) "When melted fuel hits water", oh don't make me laugh even more! The fuel is IN the water now. Why do you think they are pouring 7 tonnes of water per hour in there?

      4) What fuel elements converted to dust and blown away? When? do you not think that other country's would be able to detect all of this supposed failed fuel? Nope, what they are detecting now is not the fuel elements.

      5) This is wrong on so many levels it isn't true. At least try and look for facts not fairy tales when writing comments.

      1. Andydaws

        "Melted Fuel"

        there's worth making a point about "melted fuel" and "meltdowns".

        It's "what constitutes melted fuel"

        The fuel for 95% of commercial power reactors is all broadly made the same way. It's a stack of small pellets (usually with a hole up the middle) . The pellets are made of a ceramic form of uranium oxide. It's deliberately made porous so gasous fission products like Xenon can escape, and not crack the pellet.

        These are then put into a zirconium alloy tube, and sealed. The pellets are small - about 1 cm diameter, mostly so there's no significant temperature differential.

        The melting point of zirconium is 1800C, and the melting point of uranium dioxide is about 2800C. And, of course, as soon as the zirconium tube melts, the fuel pellets fall out (as at TMI). In fact, the probability is the integrity of the zirconium will go much earlier, as it's subject to gas pressure inside.

        Now, it's not quite as simple as that - the temperature at the middle of the fuel pellet can be higher, depending on a function of the power density. But, not that much higher - and it's particularly the the case when not running at power, but only with decay heat generation. For example, the fuel reactors 2&3 at Fukushima are now making about 1/3rd of 1% of the heatthey produce when running at full power. And it's been below 1% of full power production since about 6 hours after the initial scram.

        And, of course, in there's any water at all in the vessel, once the pellets have fallen out they're being cooled directly. It means fission products, or at least the volatile ones get into the water, but not the heavier stuff.

        So, let's be clear - if there's "melted fuel" in Fukushima, it almost certainly means fuel where the cladding has failed, not fuel where the uranoim dioxide has melted.

        That's consistent with what's been observed - the gaseous fission products seem to be getting out (mostly the Iodine), and to a lesser degree stuff like Caesium, but not actinides in any significant degree.

        1. Highlander

          Great analysis Andy

          Now, would you be kind enough to explain to people that even in the absence of their "China Syndrome" meltdown (that so many people apparently wish for) at unit 3, plutonium produced through the fission reactions could conceivably enter the cooling water if the fuel rod's casing is in any way damaged - say through warping at a high enough temperature to crack the casing and allow water to come into contact with the ceramic fuel chips- as you more or less described.

          See, people are all over themselves about the trace amounts of Plutonium found - right next to the reactor buildings. It seems as though the trace amounts of Plutonium are sufficient in their minds to imagine a total meltdown of the MOX fuel inside unit 3. Now, personally I've heard nothing about any actual fuel (trace amounts or otherwise) being found outside the reactors, which would indicate that whatever the state of the fuel rod casing, the fuel is (as you would expect) completely intact.

          Since we know that there was at least some level of cooling going on in all three reactors that scram'd during the initial earthquake and that they had backup cooling for a while and then the battery controlled steam driven cooling until the batteries failed, it would appear highly likely that sufficient cooling had occurred to avoid any significant melting of fuel. Based on everything we've seen thus far, that would appear to be the case.

          Thank you, by the way, for bringing much more in depth science to this discussion, you're doing a far better job than I ever could.

          1. Andydaws

            thanks, Highlander

            (it's more a matter of engineering than science, btw)

            As I've posted before, I've got my doubts about the Pu238 detection. At these low levels (I make it about 1*10^-12 grammes/kg of soil) we're at the ragged edge of detectability. When it's further dependent on determining an isotopic ratio by looking for differences in the energy of the alpha particles emitted (a difference in the third or fourth significant figure) it's not something to bet the farm on. Especially so when we're not seeing elevated levels of other actinides, or seeing plutonium 238 detection elsewhere.

            We know Tepco's lab is under strain. First there was the I134 error in the R2 water, now they've recognised they've code errors in the lab systems assaying minor fission products. I'd not be amazed to here retest failed to produce a Pu238 trace.

    7. Andydaws
      Thumb Down

      A small aside, that tells you all you need to know about the "Mail"

      "entombed in concrete" eh?

      Now, think on this. At the moment, Reactors 2&3 at Fukushima are producing about 7-8MW of heat each. R1 will be making 4-5.

      If you pour concrete on them, it won't stop that heat being produced. It can't, the heat is coming from fission product decay. It'll drop over time, but it'll be a fw years before it can be ignored.

      So, pour the concrete. What happens to the heat? The concrete will act as a heat sink, but sooner or later, it'll warm up. And, in the middle, there'll be those fuel rods. getting hotter, and hotter, because they can't shed heat. In other words, exactly the situation that is supposed to be the worst case.

      And concrete doesn't respond well to high temperatures. It's water content, if boiled, will cause cracking and spalling. Precisely ythe sort of thing that would allow groundwater to penetrate.

      There's a good working rule, on this. See anyone arguing to dump concrete on any of these reactors before they've had 3 or 4 years of cooling, and you're talking to someone who hasn't thought beyond tabloid headlines. Or is "hard of thinking".

    8. Horizon3
      WTF?

      "El Reg used to have a reputation"

      1/ Exactly how many people have ever died from plutonium poisoning? A: 0 zip, nada none.

      2/ I and many others doubt they will bury any reactors, that would just be kicking the rock down the road for someone else to deal with, the Japanese aren't very well known for this characteristic.

      The plants will be cooled, decon'd and then scrapped out, they will prep the site for new Mark3 reactors and get back to generating. (Plant #1 was due to be shutdown permanently, 3 days ago any way), Add to that these units have had hot seawater in them, they are now junk anyway.

      3/ Maybe you can explain to the class how a molten anything submerged in water can drip from air into a full vessel of water? Which would be needed to cause a steam explosion you try to make sound scary. Leave out the fact that the reactors are now at or below 100c and pressured up to 70 atmosphere, and unit 4 reactor which has no fuel in it whatsoever is of zero concern.

      4/ That's just plain BS. NONE of the radiation detected in the sea or on the land poses any threat to humans it is not a problem. What is a problem is millions of acres of previously productive farmland is going to have to be scraped off for 1-3 feet in depth due to seawater contamination (read stuff won't grow in it) and re top soiled with millions of tons of good soil, peat and fertilizers to bring it back.

      5/ There are many folks looking at the aftermath and economic situation, they are the ones not running around like headless chickens, squawking about nonexistent meltdown calamities.

      The result of the quake and tsunami and the shutdown power infrastructure are having a major impact on other economies, this is a result of concentrating too much of your manufacturing base in on place. We should be making those products in our own countries, but unfortunately we have let the squeaky wheel get too much grease and allowed the litigators, unions and runaway government regulation drive the manufacturing companies to a friendlier place to do business, ie. They bugged out so they could make a legally required profit, without pricing themselves out of business.

  11. Charles Thornton
    Terminator

    I hope Mr Page is well paid

    For he is making a complete fool of himself

    At least 2 of the plutonium samples were specifically identifiable as coming from Fukushima reactors.

    Those well known fearmongers the IAEA identified the village of Iitate 40 km from Fukushima Number 1 as exceeding the criterion for evacuation.

    Radioactive iodine in the seawater near the plant now exceeds background levels by 4,000

    times.

    Exposed bodies in within the 20 km exclusion zone are still lying uncollected because of excessive radiation.

    Those scaredypants of the US forces bar personnel from going within 80 km of the plant.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      The media isn't about facts

      The media is in the entertainment business. One side of the media alternately thrills and horrifies us with one-eyed takes on the most sensational events of the day, while the other side mocks and pooh-poohs itself. This series of articles has been as silly as any tabloid paper can produce, but look at the reaction it produces. Keeps the Register in business. Just take it all with a pinch of salt.

    2. This post has been deleted by its author

      1. This post has been deleted by its author

      2. Sebmel

        RTFA again

        I think you'll find that permitted levels are NOT lower than background levels. As a result the parent post, while it miss quotes, is not wrong but actually understates the level of contamination.

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