Would you leave your child alone with a cabinet minister? When it comes to vetting adults who may come into contact with children, there is yet again one rule for politicians, another for the rest of us. There is much fuss in this morning’s papers over a statement by Philip Pullman, author of His Dark Materials trilogy, that once the government’s new vetting system is in place, he …
even more complex
I regularly play (once a week or more) at a war games club where children are present I am not staff but a player same as the children I regularly play the same person more than 3 times a month I build up a relationship with pepol I play against it is hard not to games take more than 2h getting to know his tactics is part of the game
should I be vetted?
since it is a open club who would be paying for me to be vetted?
who would be libel if it turns out I was not?
CRB checks and background checks are worth very little, mainly because the government puts far too much trust in them.
CRB checks are a failure because they work on the assumption that the only people who will offend in future are those who have already been caught and successfully prosecuted. The "enhanced" CRB check is a woeful attempt to fix this.
The government needs to learn that they cannot defend against everything. They are like health and safety officers in this respect. Every time somebody is injured in the workplace the HSO will try to come up with a cause which can be avoided in future. Before too long nobody can do their job effectively becuase they have to use blunt scissors and crayons, ladders are banned so everybody has to work in the dark because nobody can change a lightbulb and so it goes. If they keep it up nobody will be able to jump through the hoops required to be authorised to work with children.
Another problem with CRB checks is that they send out a clear message that the government does not trust it's own criminal justice system. It clearly states that the government believes you cannot rehabilitate offenders.
"an individual who avoids vetting in this way could be liable to a fine of £5,000 and possibly prison"
Lock 'em all up. It 's the only language they understand.
Unfortunately, this could include me, as I refused a CRB check on the grounds that Crapita (who run the bureau) has a dismal record and regularly makes mistakes (about 10,000 at the last count) and you can just imagine how difficult that is to rectify!
I now have a form to fill in that asks: "Have you ever refused a criminal records check?" so that's that dealt with then...
"All ministers and MPs should have enhanced CRB checks and these should be published for all too see. I wonder what such a scheme would reveal."....... Is recreational drugs use permitted for ministers and MPs or is that an issue which they would rather not discuss with anybody, lest they be banished forever from the House.
My sons go to the local Beavers & Cubs and I also run their website for them. I was asked if I would like to help out in person but was told I would have to get a CRB check done.
I politely refused pointing out that the check was not worth the paper it was written on (6 months to a year after you apply) and I disagreed with it in principal.
Now if I was an MP, I could have refused on the grounds that I was a slimy b*stard who made rules for everyone else apart from myself.
An author appeared on BBC Breakfast this morning and announced that it would be a good thing to be vetted and that he would happily apply for a check. He stated that he had regular contact with kids in that being a visiting author he wasn't just standing on a stage and reading, he was also visiting kids in the classroom, being shown around the school, etc. However he never said that he was left alone, and I suspect that he would always have a teacher with him doing the showing around stuff. However he made a nice comment at the end of the interview when he stated that because he had a fan base he had kids sending him messages on his website, and because of this he thought that he should have a check, besides the visiting school aspect. If that was a valid argument why not just forget about choosing who gets a check or not and check everybody. Hell, why not just go the whole hog and put it on the ID card.
My missus works at a nursery and has been checked through various registers, but she has to be careful. Kids often come running up to her during breaks and want a hug or a cuddle and she has been told she must simply raise her hands to ensure that she has no hand touching contact with the child to ensure that those around her do not misinterpret the situation. She's been on work related courses that teach about child abuse and it came as no surprise at all when the recent case of a female school worker was arrested for child abuse in Devon. My missus has had to deal with kids she knows full well are likely to go home and get a severe thumping, it really cuts her up and all she can do is record her suspicions for school management, she is not allowed to act on them, that is for the local authority to decide based on evidence presented by higher school staff.
The red tape makes life very difficult for those who have to work with kids and may occasionally have solid grounds for suspicion and can't act and it makes life hard for those, like authors and youth group leaders, who wish to simply help kids, but are prevented from enriching kids lives just in case they might have the merest hint of being a kiddie fiddler.
Sad society we live in today, very sad indeed. Hardly surprising when some kids go mental and start smashing things up, it's the only way they can express themselves!
@Filippo : You need to read the rest of the books. And not just to find out why they are considered anti-religious[*] but because they are worth reading.
@Mage : Because we don't have a separation of church and state and schools teach religion, I don't think it does any harm for children to hear an alternative point of view. And I wouldn't describe his views as "narrow"; he draws on an incredibly rich literary and cultural heritage - another reason the books are well worth reading.
[*] actually, it is subtler than that; he is anti-church rather than anti-God or religion per se.
who support these rather draconian and unconstitutional measures, there seems to be one very clear reason to reject the system. There does not appear to be a satisfactory right of appeal or measures of redress. We are already hearing about lives ruined as a result of this legislation and Operation Ore.
To understand where legislation like this is taking us, consider reading some of the classic literature on the subject like Fahrenheit 451, Minority Report, 1984, and so on.
Think of the kind of world our children and grandchildren should inherit, think what it would have been like if the Nazi's had prevailed. Think what our fathers and grandfathers might think about this use of the freedom that many of them gave their lives for.
@ MJG on the very sad events at Dunblane, I would venture to suggest that there were some rather serious failings in systems of the time, given that so much was apparently already known, and that consequently this justification is flawed.
@AC 15:40
An awful lot of babies get kissed by MP's etc, with a peak every four years or so...
I believe it is rule number one of any management course that you don't ask your minions to do something that you wouldn't do yourself. Of course the Government is technically OUR servant, though they never seem to remember this.
Oh no it isn't.
Last year I joined in with a couple of blokes trying to set up a world-culture festival, organising the music side of it. (It didn't happen in the end, but anyway.) It was going to be a one-off event. But CRB checks all round please, because (a) there were going to be student bands playing and (b) there were going to be kids attending the event.
Oh, and Fillipo, you say you don't know what the anti-God stuff is about with Pullman. Read the other two books in the series. Ignorance isn't a good starting point for opinions.
The list of vulnerable groups (children, disabled and elderly) is incomplete and as a result most of you have things backwards about cabinet ministers and other government panjandrums. These people are themselves vulnerable. They exhibit a clear inability either to perceive the world around themselves objectively or to react appropriately to that world. Moreover, they are universally megalomaniacal, frequently monomaniacal, not to mention narcissistic.
So, anyone working with cabinet ministers and the like should be vetted so as to prevent panjandrum abuse.
@Tim 30 (10:47 GMT) - The English Language does indeed have the word you are seeking. It is "governmental."
AC "Re: Sense check " gives a quote from Hitler - that is surprising, as Hitler's retorical powers usually resulted from emotional appeal, rather than any thing quotable. I was unable to verify in German. I did find this gem from Bertolt Brecht, which might apply:
"Adolf Hitler, dem sein Bart, ist von ganz besondrer Art.
Kinder da ist etwas faul: Ein so kleiner Bart und ein so großes Maul.“
Adolf Hitler's facial hair is something seldom seen elsewhere.
Children, something's wrong in truth, such a small brush, and such a big mouth.
Hi there. I'd like to tell you a story.
In 2002-ish I had a holiday job working for a temp agency. I was posted to the gov body that oversees the approval of nurserys and playschools etc. Part of what made up the file for each establishment was the recording of CRB checks done on each member of staff. One of those files had a particular record in it that caught my eye. It was about one of the girls working in a playschool. There was an allegation against her that she was unsuitable for that position. The reason? Apparently a parent of one of the kids attending the playschool had come forward and made the allegation that 'the girl's boyfriend had jizzed into her facecream as sme kind of kinky sex game'. Little else in the way of detail.
Now answer me the following: Should that girl have been struck off on the basis of that allegation?
Well, I suspect the parent knew full-well what they were doing. But mercifully, (as I understand it) the girl continued to work for the playschool without impediment. And it was apparent that accusative parent in question had lodged a string of other unsubstantiated claims (against thegirl in question, and others), and was on record as being disgruntled with the playschool for some reason or other.
Crazy scenes.
Funky private & personal bedroom antics should have nowt to do with it. And for stuff like that to go on record is just plain weird. And for it to be accessible by a temp member of staff (me) is a second failing.
Yeah, sure. Check to see if the potential employee that is due to have responsibility for kids' welfare has a history of _sexually motivated_ criminal CONVICTIONS. But keep a record of tittle tattle? Not a good (or even relevant) policy, imho.
While I think aout it, here's some more gov't IT fail: During my time in that temp job, there was a minor round of tests of permanent staff to check for basic numeracy. Just the basics. I.e. the old "If figure X represents 120%, how much is 100%" type stuff. A scary proportion of the folk there just couldn't grasp the concept and I spent a good while drawing diagrams and soforth, trying to explain the simple "divide by 120 = 1%, multiply that by 100 to get 100%" methodology to 'em. :rolls eyes: ...Just a taster of the calibre of folk who are administering some of the elements of our country.
(Posted AC, because I signed the official secrets act prior to the above job, and you never know...)
State schools can only barely make ends meet because of volunteer help. Therefore: Shut down the volunteer stream, state schooling collapses, close all state schools because of 'lack of staff', Govt.Inc. saves a bundle.
Cynical? Been living too long in Australia, where the Govt. claimed "Teacher shortage" is actually a "Teaching Position" shortage, while trained teachers struggle to find work and parents (the ones who can scrape together the funds for it, at least) are pushed to the Private Education sector.
But it is so easy to control people once you have them on the database and they rely on your good favour to continue working. They hardly ever step out of line and when they do you visit them at home or if they really tick you off just threaten to take away their ability to work. Or maybe do it. Its not as though they have any legal recourse against your decision. When everyone is on at least one database the malcontents and radicals will be easy to spot.
The trench coat with the STASI manual in the pocket please
The point is that there were no systems prior to Dunblane; pretty much anyone who wanted to, could get access to kids and other vulnerable groups, and in case you haven't noticed all the large compensation cases going through the courts for abuse that happened in the 80's and earlier, there were those who took advantage in the time that kids were not believed.
Hamilton sets the benchmark; what would have stopped him from carrying out that act, and he casts a shadow over a lot of government policy in this area, on vetting and posession of handguns.
The Daily Hell and others are just jumping on a convenient bandwagon; if these checks weren't being done, they'd be on the other side, campaigning for them.
So, how many of the commentators above screeching about the nanny state and big brother devoured the coverage of the dozens of high-profile child disappearances / murders over the last few years? /Someone/ kept buying all those tabloids when they made "Maddie"* a perpetual rolling news-circus clusterfuck that Chris Morris himself could hardly have imagined... that was why the media carried on hyping it for month after month after month, you know, it was because people buy more papers when that crap's on the cover. Believe it or not, few if any Labour MPs really *want* to institute a Big Brother society; they think they're giving the masses what they want. Is it their fault that the majority of people can't think past a couple of decades of paedophilophobia, and the crazed media/community witchhunt hysteria that's been whipped up in the last couple of decades?
Meanwhile, the real horror of child abuse continues as usual, behind the closed front-doors of the "decent, hard-working people of Britain". Well, pardon my bitterness, but my first reaction to much of the above is: screw you, fucko, you've got what exactly what you wanted. (And where were you all when we were demonstrating against RIP in 2000? ) Those expecting Cameron's fascist-lite to do anything fundamental about state surveillance are, well... "mistaken", to be polite.
After venting the bile, I then think: you're all card-carrying members of Liberty, right?
http://liberty-human-rights.org.uk/
Come on, put your money where your angry commentard typing fingers are! Do something constructive rather than just moaning on about how "they're all the same".
* "Madeleine" too tricky to spell, perhaps?
James Pickett said:
"I now have a form to fill in that asks: "Have you ever refused a criminal records check?" so that's that dealt with then..."
You have the wrong attitude. You need to think like our overlords. You did not refuse the check, you declined to accept their kind offer.
I appreciate it's rather late but;
"I think I'd rather leave a child in the care of a professional Dominatrix before I let a politician at them - at least the pro-Domme has some integrity and standards."
Are you sure about that? I suspect 'in the care of a professional dominatrix' may be a good place to find politicians who are 'off duty' and I certainly don't want my children in proximity to such low moral standards, taste for deviant practice and poor reputation for honesty and integrity as may be shown by our current crop of politicians.
I used to go into my old primary school to help teach the kids computers there - it was a lot of fun to do so. I'd love it if I still could go back, but with the current situation, I'm assumed to be a paedophile....
I'm sure this whole environment of suspicion puts teachers off - it only takes one child to make an accusation, and they've probably lost their job for life. I'd like to think that later in life I would do some teaching, but this really puts me off.
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