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back to article BNP leaked list claims first victims

The first public sector employees are waking up to the fallout from the leaking of the BNP membership list yesterday. Although the list was removed from its original blog home it has reappeared at several mirror sites, on bittorrent and on Wikileaks. Wikileaks uses encryption to protect its sources and is widely distributed …

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@Milian

Read again; from cover to cover. Then read between the lines. It's there, couched in 'acceptable' terms but dear lord it is there. You'll see, I read all their manifestos with great care (and a fair amount of squirming), know your enemy and all that ;)

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@milan

That would have been a revelation but for the fact that someone had already posted extracts from the BNPs constitution, which appears to say, er, exactly that.

Been at the fail have we?

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Anonymous Coward

@ Tuchuck

You ask - "Why are members of a LEGAL POLITICAL PARTY denied the right to work in the police force / armed services / fire brigade etc etc" (?)

The answer is simple - the public must be confident that those services are fulfilling their duty to provide an equal and fair service to all. If they employ staff who hold extremist positions (of any kind) this is damaged. Followers of right-wing racial 'politics' hold deeply prejudicial views towards minorities which are incompatible with public service (see for example http://preview.tinyurl.com/5dplud).

It's just the same as when commies were barred from sensitive science & military projects in the 60's & 70's, or when paedo's are barred from working in nursery schools today.

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Sam

A light refrain

Karma police, arrest this girl

Her Hitler hairdo is

Making me feel ill

And we have crashed her party

....................That tune will be running 'round your head all day now.

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Paris Hilton

To those who think the BNP are nice really

One of the email addresses on the list is Totenkopf_88@...

Go and google/wikipedia Totenkopf and then come back with the same "they are really nice, really" arguments.

Go and google some of the sayings of Chairman Griffin as well.

Paris - blonde and blue eyed, but not stupid enough to go near these morons.

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@Tom

Taking your post slightly backwards, I think we agree that whoever stole and, if different, whoever released the information is contemptible and that ID cards are a menace.

But I think we're coming at it from different angles. The police forces are free to insert this sort of clause in their employment contracts just as you and I are free not to take jobs with the police. If the police have put a blanket ban on all parties then it's probably about maintaining the force's standing in society rather than about anything ideological - to do with preventing the force as a whole appearing to prefer any one party and potentially becoming a political issue in itself, especially in the run up to elections. I'm not persuaded that it is necessarily an attempt to rule that memebrs of the police force may not hold political beliefs.

If they don't make the ban then at some point there's going to be a problem, if they do then they need to enforce it.

With my strong anti-BNP feelings I'm only able to see the wider debate in terms of whether it is better to call them a legitimate party and thereby be able to prove openly that they are an odorous stench or whether the potential BNP supporters are the sort to be mindlessly swayed by demonstrations of power, Nazi Germany style, so to give that sort of party any sort of national legitimacy is to lose. There is an extent to which laws must seek to curb other freedoms in order to protect the majority from the minority, e.g. with the definition of most crimes, so it's not really about whether this is the sort of thing the state should be willing to do as it is whether it is correct to do it here. I think the presumption has to be that it is wrong to intervene, but given the risks, the standard of proof for arguing the other way probably has to be less than beyond reasonable doubt.

Currently lacking an overview of the BNP's platform, I don't claim myself qualified to come to a conclusion and more than that I accept that I have both latent and apparent biases that mean I'd be unlikely to be fair in an appraisal. Though it should probably be viewed as an adversarial thing anyway. But my key point is that I don't see that living in a free society is incompatible with there being at least some restrictions in free speech.

And I know I'm way off-topic.

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Alien

Observations on the above posts...

> @Exactly what have the freemasons got to do with this ? They are not a political party, I think they are banned from the police because membership is "secret" and they do favours for each other.

Heh. You *really* think there are no freemasons in the police? None at all? especially amongst the chief constables etc.? Yeh, right. Mind you, you also probably believe the Freemasons are a 'new world order' bunch getting ready to take over the world (after 2000 years of planning and preperation no less!) - Some research into Freemasonry might do you some good, rather than the usual repetition of ill-informed nonsense that people spout about them. (Caveat: I am not a Freemason, and once believed they were an 'evil secret society' until I did the same reasearch for myself - G'wan, take a look, you may be suprised! They have a public bookshop and information desk at their London HQ.)

> @Those who have commented about police not being allowed to be members of political parties.

Actually, it *is only* the BNP (and NF - which isn't really a party) that police officers are not permitted to be members of. This arises due to UK & European laws that were established immediately after WW2 and which have never been challenged in a court. These laws were designed to prevent the spread of 'international fascism' which may lead to another war. It has interesting parallels with the McCarthy era in America where they fought the spread of 'international communism' - I'm sure there are many political commentators who could provide further information on this, especially regarding the theory that all politics slowly evolve towards the 'middle of the road'.

> @article 11 of the EU convention on Human Rights.

Erm.. Is it me, or does that suggest that anyone involved in the administration of the nation can be prevented, legally, from being a member of a political party? Now, that sounds awfully like the laws that Hitler used to remove all opposition to his rule!

> @Nationalism defined as 'My country above all others'.

This is almost as bad as 'my sky-fairy above all others'! Nationalism, or Patriotism as they call it in *certain* nations, Can be as terrifying as religious fundamentalism. Consider the battlecry of the Minuteman(?) carefully - "My country, right or wrong" - Thats truly insane! Anyone who puts their nation, race, religion or politics 'above' all others needs to re-evaluate their stance and consider whether they are being both reasonable and rational about their stance. If we are unable to allow for the views of others then that, surely, defines us as 'fascist'?

> @Freedom of speech comments.

I am a firm believer in the rights of people to speak as they find, even when those views may offend me (I am often offended by *any* religious sophistry, for example), and I will defend the right that they have to speak their minds. But, those rights end where mine begin (or where the rights of others begin). For example, I think that Abu-Hamza had a right, as a British citizen/subject, to stand up in public and criticise our nation and its morality, but did not have the right to incite violence against it as that would contravene the intended victims rights. If the BNP want to shout about their policies, let them, we can choose to point and laugh if we want to. Same goes for the far left. And for religion. And for national pride. What *shouldn't* happen is that one of those groups (your employer, the goverment, your High Priest) gets to choose WHICH of those opinions you are allowed to accept and which you must reject. The choice MUST remain that of the individual.

and finally....

> @Racism comments.

There's a South Park episode that I like to quote when people start rattling on with racist views (like "I'm not racist but...." or "We need a policy of positive discrimination to ensure fairness".) wherein the South Park flag has to be redesigned and the children draw from South Park history to create the new flag. Unfortunately, they choose the hanging of a black person by a group of white people as their 'historical incident'. When they present the flag bearing this picture there is utter outrage around the town, much to the childrens confusion. Their questions regarding why this is an 'unacceptable image' is met with embarrasment, half explanations and general anger. Ultimately, the children have racism explained to them and reply with "Oh! we though it was just four dudes hanging another dude" - they simply hadn't *seen* the difference between the people, but now they had been taught the distinction... As long as we continue to debate racism, we continue to teach it. As long as continue to 'celebrate diversity' we perpetuate the myth of differences. Time to put it aside, surely, and be simply the human race?

Originally, I was going to post this anonymously as some of my words may offend - But no, I happen to *believe* in what I have to say, and I am not afraid of criticism, unlike many who may oppose me or those who hide behind the label of Anonymous as they know their views are unpalatable.

My thanks to you for reading.

[Alien, because some of my thinking may be....]

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Stop

Demonise the BNP

At the recent London mayoral elections, i made a point of reading all of the various parties manifestos, and while i ultimately didn't vote for the BNP and disagree with some of their policies, a few of their policies still made sense.

Now at the London elections, the BNP managed to get over 5% of the vote and thus got a seat on the assembly, and yet the other parties plan to cut the BNP member out and basically ignore him...

You may not agree with his policies, but clearly 5% of Londoners do and this 5% of the population does not deserve to have their views simply ignored.

There are many cases where political correctness is simply insane, and where the government is bending over backwards to help new immigrants at the expense of people who have lived here long enough to have paid taxes.

The UK has had christmas decorations displayed for years, and yet now they are being curbed for fear they may offend people from other religions? Now how ridiculous is this, those people knew full well that christmas is celebrated in the UK before they came here, and the vast majority are perfectly happy to accept that.

And then consider how much money the government spends translating public literature into a multitude of different languages... Now surely anyone planning to migrate to the UK knows that it's an English speaking country, and that it might actually be a good idea to learn English?

If you want to live in another country, then you should learn the language and accept the culture, you don't have to embrace the culture but you should accept it is and not interfere with it. If you don't like the culture, and would rather live in a country which practices your own culture then why not just stay put? If the country you left is so bad that you wanted to leave it, then why try to change the UK to be the same? And if your country collapsed to the extent you no longer want to live there, what if the same thing happens to the UK, where will you go then? The UK is different from the country you migrated from, that's why you came here, don't try to destroy that.

I'm willing to bet that a majority of people who voted for the BNP don't believe in their more extreme policies, but when it comes to other things like just how ridiculous political correctness is, and not wanting to sacrifice our culture the BNP is seemingly the only party willing to do anything about it. So rather than ignoring the BNP, the other parties should be asking themselves why an increasing number of people are voting for them. A few relatively moderate policy changes would take away 90% of their voters and reduce the BNP to a small handful of extremists.

And when it comes to disallowing BNP members from joining the police, that's simply a form of discrimination, just like you accuse the BNP of. Disallow police from joining *any* political party, or allow them to join any they want. Besides, it's perfectly possible for a police office to hold any view they want, even a view far more extreme than that of the BNP and you'd have no way of knowing.

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Anonymous Coward

Right to Privacy vs Ahh hahahahahah

Comedy highlights include:

"will not be renewing 07 (objects to being told he shouldn't wear a bomber jacket)"

"member describes himself as a witch: potential embarrassment if active"

"Activist large barn available for use" (what do they want a large barn for?)

"Window cleaner. Former pig farmer. Pagan prison chaplain. Hobbies: growing mistletoe, rune making (wood)" .

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Can't be selective - they are all unacceptable

Personally I find all extremists unacceptable, including but not exclusively the BNP, Trots, the Liberals, the BBC and the Socialist Workers Party. All of their views are incompatible with what I see as traditional British tolerance and therefore if one is unacceptable, all are unacceptable.

We really are a long way down the road to 'thought police'. Either ban them all or accept their right to exist. If they are carrying out illegal activities then charge them. George Orwell got it right.

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Stop

Is it so hard ?

I'm surprised so many people have trouble accepting the idea that it's simply impossible to do a job well if your personal morals do not comply with that of your employer.

BNP Constitution states that they want to reverse the trend of imigration and send all non-white people back home. That does not sit easily with the Police forces racial harmony policy.

If you can not perform your job properly because of your political and/or religous beliefs then you should expect to be sacked.

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Anonymous Coward

Not comfortable

Apart from a bit of childish enjoyment at the BNP headless chicken act, I'm not comfortable with this 'name and shame' business at all, even though I'm as near the opposite side of the political spectrum as possible.

As plenty of others have pointed out, the BNP are a legal political party and provided they stay within the law, they should be allowed to make their point without fear of violence or intimidation. It's not really possible to say we have freedom of speech unless their right to express their views ranks equal to everyone else.

If the mainstream parties would engage intelligently with the issues the BNP raise, there would be far fewer people using them as a protest vote. Spouting the CBI line and hoping it'll all go away isn't going to help.

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@Andy etc

>>Why don't we try to address the reasons for the BNP's growing popularity, instead of cracking down on the BNP itself?<<

Has got to be the more important question.

As already said, if they should be banned, then do that. Otherwise, nobody should be penalised in their job for supporting them. That is thoughtcrime, completely totalitarian in its concept. Just the brand of totalinarianism is different.

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Sam

Now that's jus plain nazi, er, nasty..

A friend just said to me; "how long d'you reckon before the Google mashup appears?"

And you thought *I* was sick??

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Fascist anti-fascists

"Merseyside Police said: "We are very clear - membership of the British National Party is totally incompatible with the duties and values of the police service and Merseyside Police. We will not accept a police officer or police staff being a member of BNP."

Its amazing how the desire to protect can breed hypocrisy and fascism. This is a typical reaction of everybody who has not actually read up on the BNP. Now don't get me wrong here, I'm not a member, and I don't plan to vote for them, but I have read enough to understand that the majority held view is presently unfounded.

It may have been valid several years ago, but unless the BNP are up to something sinister (and lets be honest, it would be very hypocratic to suggest they are without any evidence) there is nothing to suggest that a BNP member should be deprived of the priveleges the rest of us enjoy.

The statement above from the Police is nothing but pure fascism and discrimination, and proves that the Police are just one part of a corrupt system that doesn't want to see all views represented.

Aside from which, I was kinda under the impression that most companies believe that what a person gets up to in there own time is none of the company's concern. Are the police above this status quo?

-- Richard

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From U Boat to Concentration Camp

The BNP inherently racist - not nationalist. They don't support the rights of non-white English people, except the right to expelled from the country.

In contrast the SNP and Plywd Cymrhu are nationalist without any hint of racism, they support all the people of Scots and Welsh regardless of ethnicity.

The police as an institution are racist - according to their own reports - and racist police attitudes has led to several miscarriages of justice. To avoid that the police have adopted a zero-tolerance approach to any racist employee. This is because the police have to act in a non-racist manner, which is impossible when staffed with racist employees.

To avoid events like this all political parties should be made to publish their membership lists online, the equivalent of being a 'registered' Democrat or Republican in the States.

Paster Martin Neimoller is famous for a verse confessing his own inaction when fascists came to power and started ethnically cleansing Europe. No one is slaughtering the BNP, just keeping them away from jobs where they can abuse others. Neimoller wasn't just inactive, he was an active supporter of Hitler until Hitler messed with his protestant Church. So if anyone does feel like quoting Neimoller, read up on him first, because it is not clear that you understand the meaning of the verse simply by quoting it. Neimoller later said he was getting more progressive as he aged and if he lived to be 100 then he would be an anarchist - and so probably someone who would release the BNP list.

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@Mark and @Martin

@Mark:

> Actually, police officers are not able to be members of any political party, be they Labour, Tory, BNP, UKIP, MRLP.

Oh yes, they are... Schedule 1 (relating to Regulation 6) of the Police Regulations 2003 states:

"1. A member of a police force shall at all times abstain from any activity which is likely to interfere with the impartial discharge of his duties or which is likely to give rise to the impression amongst members of the public that it may so interfere; and in particular a member of a police force shall not take any active part in politics."

That doesn't stop them joining a political party. However, the Police (Amendment) Regulations 2004 replaced this in its entirety with:

"1. — (1) A member of a police force shall at all times abstain from any activity which is likely to interfere with the impartial discharge of his duties or which is likely to give rise to the impression amongst members of the public that it may so interfere.

(2) A member of a police force shall in particular–

(a) not take any active part in politics;

(b) not belong to any organisation specified or described in a determination of the Secretary of State."

So, at the Home Secretary's whim, any political party can become proscribed for police officers, and yes, the Conservative Party is next on the list... :-)

@Martin

> It seems clear to me, as Martin Burns points out, that the member of the police should not keep their job as a simple matter of breach of his or her contract of employment. If the employee wants to claim that the term is not lawful then the correct venue is an employment tribunal. In the meantime the correct behaviour by the police is to terminate the employment.

Martin, police officers are Crown servants, they have no contract of employment. That's why they're fed up being sh*t on by the Home Office and are looking for increased industrial rights.

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What is British?

How far back do we go to get to a true British identity?

The first Britons were immigrants. They had a Neanderthal level of intelligence. They died out about 30,000 when they were out-foxed by smarter, lighter, African migrants.

The second Britons were also immigrants. They were so primitive they couldn't even make a decent stone arrow. (I've tried, it's damned hard). They left again when it got too cold to hunt woolly rhino.

The third Britons were pretty good at stone arrows, and other stone tools. They even learnt to farm and domesticate animals. At this point, history becomes a bit hazy, but the next lot we know about came from Italy. Then came the Angles, Saxons, vikings (Danes), Normans (who also were Danish via France, which was British half the time). Then things settled down a bit, and economic and social migration became the norm. Of course, the ruling class still had it's mix-ups, Half the time Britain was a French colony, and half the time the other way round. Not that it made much difference to the peasants. When we got a bit short of 'native' royalty, we ended up importing it from Scotland, France, Germany.

When the Empire got a bit shaky, we invited a lot of the previous slaves or colonials to come and do the hard work, and they did, and mostly worked very hard at it. A lot of these are now very well established in the family trees of our aristocracy if you look carefully.

Britons are mongrels. We should be proud of it.

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Re: its ridiculous

To those mentioning that the existing list has been verified by Nick Griffen - that, presumably would be the original leaked list. I've already received two copies of an excel spreadsheet by email today - purporting to be that list. How is it provable by the recipients of these lists that they haven't been adulterated in any way?

We all know how scrupulous email users are at checking their facts.

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Coat

A tiny fraction of BNP supporters

The other 790,000 who physically voted for the BNP in the 2006 European elections are not on the list. Seems to me you are picking on baby while daddy is standing behind you.

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Bronze badge

<untitled>

I always find it interesting the way that extremists to right are vilified as unacceptable, but persons and groups to the left are perfectly acceptable in this country. The reverse appears to be the case in the US of course, but I have never understood why.

As for the SNP, I don't think that they have much in common with the BNP, but if they do, what does that mean? The SNP are 'allowed' to be the most powerful party in Scotland, but no-one is going to be allowed to be a member?

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BNP racsist not nationalist

The BNP inherently racist - not nationalist. They don't support the rights of non-white English people, except the right to expelled from the country. In contrast the SNP and Plywd Cymrhu are nationalist without any hint of racism, they support all the people of Scots and Welsh regardless of ethnicity.

The police as an institution are racist - according to their own reports - and racist police attitudes has led to several miscarriages of justice. To avoid that the police have adopted a zero-tolerance approach to any racist employee. This is because the police have to act in a non-racist manner, which is impossible when staffed with racist employees.

To avoid events like this all political parties should be made to publish their membership lists online, the equivalent of being a 'registered' Democrat or Republican in the States.

Paster Martin Neimoller is famous for a verse confessing his own inaction when fascists came to power and started ethnically cleansing Europe. Noone is slaughtering the BNP, just keeping them away from jobs where they can abuse others. Neimoller wasn't just inactive, he was an active supporter of Hitler until Hitler messed with his protestant Church. So if anyone does feel like quoting Neimoller , read up on him first, because it is not clear that anyone understands the meaning of the verse simply by quoting it. Neimoller later said he was getting more progressive as he aged and if he lived to be 100 then he would be an anarchist - and so probably someone who would release the list.

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Coat

Cut to the chase..

Jesus H.C. I would normally consider "El Reg" demographics amongst the higher level of commentards. You defy belief on both sides of the fence.

Are you racist? ... Screw you. There's no need for that. Live and let live.

Are you apologist?.... Screw you. No one should come to the UK and rape it for benefits.

If you're born here, you belong here - regardless of colour and creed. Just don't f*ck about and complain if you don't like the well established local laws and customs (applies to ye olde bloode lines, too...).

(Heck, perhaps I could move to Iran and proclaim they should renounce Sharia law because it doesn't fit in with my perceptions...)

If you're not born here, welcome. Come on in, but bring something to the party. No one likes the gobby tosser that brings no weed but smoke's everyone elses, and then complains it's "not as good as the stuff they normally get....".

If you think somewhere else is better, f*ck off and go live there. (I did: loving China, BTW. Won't be coming home to the UK any time soon....) You'll find something else to complain about, I'm sure.

Screw the politics, cut to the rationale...

Show me the UK political party that's against spending UK money on immigrants that can't (or won't) support themselves.

Oh, the choice is really limited....

That's no excuse for racism. So, who covers all bases?

Wait, perhaps there are bigger issues than this. Let's look to see which party doesn't line their own pockets....

Oh....

Mine's the one with "Let's vote if get our own pay rise" badge on the lapel.

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Anonymous Coward

Free Country

If someone wants to be a member of some party or group ( so long as the group is not declared illegal) and membership of that party does not impact on the person's ability to do their job then they should be allowed to be a member.

There has to be a clear dividing line between work and personal time.

An employer pays someone to do a job during the working hours, in my view an employer has no right to dictate to someone what they can and can't do outside that time, particularly so when the employer is not paying them during that time.

As has become apparant by reading a newspaper today, people join parties for a variety of reasons, it doesn't make them racist. And even if they were racist, I don't think it's fair for people to lose their job for being a racist, unless that has a negative impact ( and shown to have a negative impact) on their work.

What's about to happen now is, people who have been in jobs for many years, being doing those jobs effectively are about to be fired purely because they're a member of a political party which is disliked by many. That's wrong. It's a free country (or so it's claimed).

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Alert

Missing the Point ?

Whether or not somebody should be expelled from the police for being a member of *any* political party is debatable - personally I think the police should be politically neutral so the simplest fix is to disallow police officers from being active members of *any* political orgranisation. Of course, if it is enforced for one party it has to be for all parties - like labour or conservatives - or else it becomes just another tool to enforce the policies of the powerful. I would hope any inquirey would cover all parties.

The same should go for any other public body - including military, judges and magistrates.

What I haven't heard is any outrage about the leaking of so much personal information - and the fact that the police aren't even going to investigate it. Surely data protection laws must have broken by the leak. I find it hard to beleive that if any other political(ly correct) organisation (eg. SNP, LIB DEMs, Labour) had their member's details leaked that it would be taken so lightly. This implies actual (anti-BNP) political motivations at work within the police force - the very thing other officers may lose their jobs for the possibility of.

The BNP are a legal political party and their member's rights to privacy should be enforced by law like any others - like it or not.

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Paris Hilton

By Chrimbo I's found it!

Chings Help Ma Bob. I has detectivated the stolen Crimbo case. The prime suspect is a big proto-political organisation, got a lot of out of town marketplaces, complete wif parking places, and millions of card-carrying members. Not me. Any club that would have me I wouldn't want to join to paraphrase Marx. Groucho that is.

T**esco (name deliberately obfusticated to protect the rights of the Guilty Barstards) done it. And they have held it hostage since October. You can see their neferious scheming confusing the poor BNP-laden Plods searching for the kidnap victim, Mr, Mrs or Ms White Christmas, by replicating potential hiding places all over their aisles. Worse. They got the other Families to join in the diversification tactics by doing the same.

So that fella what thinks Christmas is an Autumnal event is not wrong really......

Paris, cos she only comes in the Spring time.

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Unhappy

So who gets banned next?

Whether you agree with the BNP or not is irrelevant. This could be hardcore Communists (Both Stalin and Mao killed more than Hitler), Black Panthers, Al Qaeda supporters or anyone else of an extreme view.

You can wrap up any excuse you like. Hitler banned Communists, Jews and others from prominent positions (and eventually, existence) on the basis of the greater good. Did it make it right?

The governments of the past and present in the UK enforcing similar bans on state services only lead one to consider that, at the end of the day, state control is getting tighter, our freedom of thought and expression restrained.

Also, with this 'incompatible beliefs' nonsense, they assume that anyone who is a BNP member is not a professional able to distinguish between their job and their personal belief. I beleive Sainsburys employ Jews and Muslims. Should they be banned because Sainsbury's sell bacon?

Any ban or restriction based on belief, be it political or religious, is the antithesis of what this country, or any other truly democratic state is about. How even handed, or pro-equality, is a person who screams BAN because someone says something they don't like? Anyone thinking any ban on the BNP is a hypocrite!

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Unhappy

Bigotry, racism, Christmas ....

It seems to me that the rabid anit-Christmas writers here are, mentally, on a par with the their equally tolerant mates in the BNP and similar parties. The crude language betrays lonely desparation.

I await eagerly the demolition of Moslem festivals and beliefs, Hinduism etc by these same dull, little people. Accept it, for rather a long time now, probably longer than your oh so English families have been in UK, Christmas and Easter have been used as Christian festivals in Europe (including Britain) and, like it or not, believe in it or not, much of the very good side of our culture derives from those beliefs, including the modern tolerance and openness that turns most of us away from extremists of any hue.

And of course, remember, "First they came for the Jews ....". If you are so confident in how right you are and how wrong they are, where is the problem? As someone else said, unless they are organising illegal activities a la IRA, give them some rope and put your efforts into supporting what you believe to be right, in a rather more educated and civilised manner than the BNP whose intolerance and speech some seem so keen to ape (oh dear, is that ape-ist?).

Heaven forefend, some of you sound like that Jackie woman.

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Stop

Not equal at all

The BNP alone were banned five years ago from police employment. Complaining about that now seems opportunist or just plain ignorant.

I don't like police officers but I would prefer a non-racist officer beating me up for opposing the Iraq invasion rather than a fascist. I have met fascists and they tend to want to kill people like me.

I am happy to bet that none of these listed BNP members will be murdered - and I am also happy to testify that British fascists are happy to murder strangers who they oppose for purely racial reasons.

I wouldn't expect the regulars on the Reg to have experienced British fascism or British anti-fascism. I have, and you have to go with the anti-fascists, it is only humane.

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Alert

Bit of a dilemma, no?

To be fair and just we obviously shouldn't discriminate against people on the basis of their political beliefs when employing them. Nor should we discriminate on the basis of their race. But what if their political beliefs incorporate an element of racism, albeit a perfectly legal one?

Oops! Inconsistency! Political correctness has encountered an error and will now close. Your data may be lost. OK or Abort?

If it's any help in making the best of this bad situation, I'd say you should allow your employees to hold (legal) racist views but forbid them from exercising them in the course of their employment (which it would presumably be illegal for them to do anyway). Clearly not ideal and tricky to police (even if you ARE the police), but probably not a million miles from where we actually are.

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MnM
Happy

to the free speech fundamentalists

There are political beliefs, and there are political beliefs. Banning someone from joining the police on account of their position on NHS top-ups would be wrong - and for those having a little wank, 'Orwellian', even. But banning people who belong to racist political parties from frontline, social jobs is entirely justified. The slippery slope argument doesn't impress me at all.

Oh and on a completely separate point: I went to court recently to defend a speeding ticket. In the waiting room was a recent copy of Freemason's Monthly. With pictures of officialdom in it. Should I send it to wikileaks?

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Anonymous Coward

@Danny

' I am happy to bet that none of these listed BNP members will be murdered - and I am also happy to testify that British fascists are happy to murder strangers who they oppose for purely racial reasons.'

Testify? You mean you have actually witnessed a BNP member murder someone because of their race? If not you can't testify - that would be Perjury.

As for your bet, I'll take it. How much you willing to stake? Seems like you don't actually understand people at all, even given the vile hatred spouted by a lot of comments here, including your own. The first attack happened today, a firebomb at a BNP members home in West Yorkshire. Does that surprise you, or do you really think that unless you are a BNP member you are a soft cuddly tree-hugger looking for a peaceful solution to anything. Of course, the BNP have all the Nazi violent thugs so they are BAAAAAD right?

BTW The SNP ARE racist, especially that Alex Salmond who has an irrational hatred of all things English and the English themselves. But that can't be racism if it's directed at white people right?

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Foolish

OK point one; the leak was wrong and puts people in danger

2) The BNP are racist no matter how their supporters may bleat otherwise, methinks they do complain too much?

3) Racists have no place in a modern and forward looking multinational society. Let's face it, the BNP will never be more than a minority and, harp and rant on but will never stop the change in society. Anyway, none of them know any 'nonindigenous' folk, they just read about them in the Mail and Sun.

4) All extremists are bad. I'm sure if someone working in a laboratory or cosmetics company was found to be an ALF member, they'd be sacked and would you skinheads rally to their cause, would yeh ekkers!

5) I know a few Socialist Workers and to be honest, they're good folks, a bit extreme of opinion for myself (and their aims are about as realisable as the BNP's, as are their chances of gaining government) but they're pretty harmless, intellectuals usually are, they just go to demos and think a lot, and do those petitions in city centres...you know how it is....but they single out nor hate any particular group, rather an idea or state of mind (vis greed and autocracy), I'm not for them though. As I said, the Communists were left wing and no-one liked them now did they?

No extremists will ever win though, they never do because they tend to alienate and scare the majority so will always smother themselves

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Stop

Wrong starting point.

> I don't understand why people are struggling with the idea that being a BNP member is not acceptable in certain professions.

My only problem is that the guy is obviously OK at this job - he wasn't sacked before the list being public for being a racist arse.

So we are essentially sacking people only because they have a label attached to them. And for the folks saying "but you are not allowed to be a member of a polotical party" - sure. If the list was a list of Labour memebers, I'm sure he'd have got fired. Bollocks.

What will the end result of this be? A lot of ex- , or would be, BNP members working in public service. FAIL - you still have exactly the same problem!

You can't ban ANY political ideology - it just fuels the fire. The USA tried to blow the shit out of a load of (as it happens) Muslims because, with dubious evidence, a few of them were possibly third-cousins of a possible terrorist. That is now used as an excuse by the fanatics to blow the crap out of lots of innocent people world wide.

BNP is similar - a bunch of rather fanatical guys who will now use this as a propaganda tool against the estabilishment. Probably quite sucesfully too.

If you want to fix the problem of racism in the country you need to get involved much earlier in the education system, and actually teach kids what is right and wrong. But that isn't PC anymore... Fix the root cause - weak moral compass in schools, not the symptom.

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Stop

Well I voted BNP once ...

I don't live in the U.K. anymore, but when I did, I voted BNP in the last election. Now before everyone starts yelling racist or fascist or whatever else, just zip ya stupid, ignorant, lips. I have 2 half sisters and a half brother that are half cast anglo indians, a brother-in-law who is an Egyptian Muslim, I have jewish blood in me from long ago (Max Bygraves is apparently a distant relative of mine), one of my closest friends while growing up was from Sri Lanka, I now have pacific islanders living on one side of me and Maori's living on the other side of me, I'm friends with both, I have several "African decent" black friends all around the world, were I an American or in America I would have voted for Obama and when he got in I was overjoyed to the extent that his acceptance speech brought a tear to my eye! In general I couldn't give a flying **** what color someones skin is, nor could I care less that they emigrate to another country for a better life, I DO however care what the government of a country does to protect the rights and availability of employment to it's EXISTING citizens, before inviting the rest of the world to come and fill the positions.

So considering the above why did I vote BNP? The same reason my dad did (He's the one that was once married to an Indian woman and hence the reason I have those siblings I spoke of) and my mum did. Because of news stories like the Cab driver who was arrested for wearing an England shirt during the world cup, because it might 'offend' people from other countries, whilst he was in his own cab, in england, supporting his country! Because good ol Tony Blair decided to open the gates of England to EVEN more immigrants when the country is already bursting at the seems. Because while I was at college I spoke to hundreds of 16 - 18 year old kids who had started apprenticeships and gone to college to learn a trade like plumbing, plastering, electrician etc (Because they were promised a career by the government) only to be betrayed, by Labour allowing thousands of immigrant tradesman to come in and flood that market so these poor kids wouldn't have a job when they left college. Don't get me wrong I have no problem with immigrants, I am one in the country I'm in now, but when I moved to where I am now, I had to prove I could speak English, I had to pay thousands to get medicals and prove I could support myself, I'm not allowed to bring in extended family members for over 5 years and I MUST work or run a business. There is a huge difference and NO ONE here is ever told off or reprimanded for being patriotic or personal beliefs, in fact patriotism is rife here.

I don't know a single racist person in my family but the majority of them voted for BNP last election, not because of racism, but because they were the ONLY party who had ANY kind of policies which would tighten the gates of England, introduce PROPER and FAIR immigration policies, sort out the unemployment problem with hundreds of thousands of natural born British citizens being out of work, while people from all around the globe just waltz in and take a job that should be paid well, at minimum wage instead. I'm not saying these people born in England are prepared to work, but they should be forced to before we just say "F*** it let's bring others in to do it instead". Force people who refuse to work, to work at McDonalds, or cleaning out toilets, pot washing jobs in restaurants etc. One thing that was introduced was the young apprentice schemes, but then before these young apprentices could finish and qualify, their jobs were given away.

The copper should have known better tbh, it's pretty obvious that you are not allowed to be a member of ANY political party while serving in the police, the army etc. However, I condemn to damnation the police force for their comments about specifically the BNP policies not being allowed, they should have kept it generic. As for christmas I couldn't care less but it does still annoy me, as for hate, the guy with the hook was allowed to stand in Trafalgar Square shouting hate messages and the government protected him, yet he was basically shouting for the death of all white people and people of mixed race. WTF!! WTF!! WTF!! When did being English, patriotic and concerned about your nations well being become a racist thing or something you must not do? This is why I left England and this is why as much as I miss my family and friends I won't be coming back anytime soon.

As for publishing the list online, the people who did it should be subject to the law with regard to theft of personal information, the data protection act with respect to publishing personal information and the BNP should be investigated to verify that they took appropriate measures to safeguard the material and if they did not, they should also be subject to the penalties defined by law. The copper and the army officers and the teacher should not be fired, if there genuinely is a problem legally (There is with the copper and the army officers) then they should be asked to resign gracefully and go find other employment where they are allowed to hold a political party membership, simple as that.

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Why do people support the BNP?

I have commented elsewhere in my role as an official of the Trade Union Solidarity. I've made it clear that we will take action to defend the rights of any of our members bullied by Bosses as a result of being on this list. There is no justification for employers converting this list into a blacklist. In a purely personal capacity, however, I would personally like to a few points.

Much media comment has focused on knee-jerk denunciation and vilification of the B.N.P. as racist without attempting to even ASK (let alone attempt to ANSWER) the question of WHY some people support it. Some of this, at least, is the work of politicians trying to deflect attention away from their own inadequacies. Some of it is journalistic laziness. I think that maximum emphasis should be placed on encouraging a debate about people`s MOTIVES for joining/supporting. There is evidence that this is already happening, but it requires as wide an audience as possible - and constant repetition.

One reason why many people sympathise with the B.N.P. in the textile towns of West Yorkshire and East Lancashire is simple hostility to change. They don`t like whole neighbourhoods where they grew up being transformed out of all recognition, pubs and churches closed, the de facto segregation of schools, local butchers dealing only in halal meat etc. The middle classes object to change as well, but they are allowed to defend their own environments in the name of conservation etc. But when the working classes try to do the same they are denounced as racists. It should be stressed too that such towns are mostly bi-cultural not multi-cultural – more like Belfast and Londonderry than Birmingham or London.

I hope that the publicity surrounding the publication of this list will lead to a much wider debate within our civic society between all those (of all political affilations) who are sincerely interested in harmony.

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Pirate

a moral conundrum

"I'm surprised so many people have trouble accepting the idea that it's simply impossible to do a job well if your personal morals do not comply with that of your employer."

What is your opinion on religious people working in the health service? Large number of doctors are Muslims and Christians, hardly harboring the most tolerent of views towards homosexuals and transgendered people who they need to offer comfort and lifesaving care to.

Should all asian muslims and white/black christians be removed from the NHS pronto? If you agree, is that not racist towards asians or intolerent of religion in general? If you disagree, are you a homophobic?

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Ze

@AC

"What is your opinion on religious people working in the health service? Large number of doctors are Muslims and Christians, hardly harboring the most tolerent of views towards homosexuals and transgendered people who they need to offer comfort and lifesaving care to."

Just because you are muslim or christian doesn't mean that you aren't tolerant to others choices , nor that you believe the whole story.

I think it's wrong that people are banned from any particular political party but I see no problem with banning someone from public service if their actions aren't compatible with public service. IE in this case it'd be wrong to fire someone because they are a member of the BNP but it wouldn't be wrong for the internal affairs/integrity commission to investigate people on the list to see if their actions aren't compatible with the public service.

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