back to article Blighty's laziness over IPv6 will cost us on the INTERNETS - study

The deployment of a new address system for the internet brings with it connectivity problems, network security issues and privacy concerns, according to a new study. The UK is lagging behind other areas of the world in relation to the transition to IPv6 and the continuing reliance on the existing IPv4 system of addresses has …

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    1. PyLETS

      Re: Invalid assumption?

      IPV4 means serfs get to run clients, and our overlords get to run the servers. That's what GCHQ/NSA want. Consumer devices can continue to report back to base over the Internet. NAT keeps things this way. With IPV6 there's nothing other than limited technical knowledge and lack of software which supports users with limited knowledge to stop everyone running our own servers. I see Carrier Grade NAT as the most serious current threat to the success of this particular project:

      http://www.freedomboxfoundation.org/

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Invalid assumption?

        I wouldn't go that far. NAT does constrain P2P services to a degree, but it also makes the carrier responsible for compliance: eg, court orders required to sniff for traffic. If you're out on your lonesome with a public IP, hoping that the NSA can't use some built in ZDE on your kit, you might be a little optimistic assuming you are Mr/Ms Average. If you are highly skilled on the other hand, you might be better off. Horses for courses methinks

      2. Vic

        Re: Invalid assumption?

        > IPV4 means serfs get to run clients, and our overlords get to run the servers

        No, that's nonsense.

        I've been running servers on IPv4 for many years, and there's no way I could be considered an "overlord".

        Vic.

  1. jason 7

    I guess the issue is.....

    ...how do you make money selling and renting IPV6 addresses when there are so many compared to IPV4....

    Cash cow lost.

    1. Joe Montana

      Re: I guess the issue is.....

      You don't sell or rent ip addresses of either the v4 or v6 variety, doing so is explicitly against the ripe rules... You can only charge a one off "admin fee" for provisioning the addresses to the customer.

      1. jason 7

        Re: I guess the issue is.....

        And then in the real world......

      2. John 172

        Re: I guess the issue is.....

        @Joe Montana "You don't sell or rent ip addresses of either the v4 or v6 variety, doing so is explicitly against the ripe rules... You can only charge a one off "admin fee" for provisioning the addresses to the customer."

        Tell that to BT, they charge a monthly fee for a static IP address.

        1. Colin Miller

          Re: I guess the issue is.....

          Possibly, $ISP charge £1,000,000 for a static IP address, payable at £10/month. You can sell the address back to the ISP for whatever amount you haven't yet paid off.

        2. Thought About IT

          Re: I guess the issue is.....

          Orange in France also charges a (high) monthly fee for a static address.

  2. CommanderGalaxian
    WTF?

    Without IPv6 - "...sensors, and other consumer and commercial devices cannot connect directly to the Internet."

    Exactly how is this a bad thing?

  3. JimmyPage Silver badge
    Coat

    Y2K all over ...

    reading the original report, and the comments here reminded me that the world ended in 2000.

  4. Big Chief Running Bare
    Happy

    forget fixed, its about mobile?

    I am interested to know what people think if their mobile operator took them to ipv6? You are already put through NAT with ipv4 on mobile unless you are of the lucky few with a public address. Would NAT-free ipv6 be good?

    1. Christian Berger

      Re: forget fixed, its about mobile?

      Well that's why the mobile world is so desolated. People even resort to centralistic services like What'sAp for things which could be done trivially if there only were public IP adresses.

  5. Christian Berger

    What "carrier grate NAT" means for privacy

    With IPv6 or real IPv4 your data can be traced back to your IP-address. That's why governments want to store who has which IP-address (range).

    Now while you might share an address with several people on NAT, this doesn't mean there is no information on who has which connection. In fact a NAT router needs to store information about each connection passing through it. Do you honestly think governments will not try to get their hands onto that sort of information? And look at that information, you no longer have to get a log from site A to find who accessed it, you can just pull up detailed logs for every user. All the NAT router needs to do is log the information about the connections it already has in RAM. In some countries this could be done without any new law.

    Now think of the positive implications of a NAT free world. Having publicly accessible services becomes simple. You can build a little box with a little screen which acts as a NAS. You plug it in, it gets a public IPv6 address, generates a random key, and displays both as an URL on it's screen. You then scan that with your mobile and have access. There's not even a third party you'd need to trust.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: What "carrier grate NAT" means for privacy

      You are dangerously clueless about the subject.

  6. Dick Emery

    All well and good but...

    ...why is IPv6 so frustrating to get working? In Win7 I find it difficult to setup (well for my IPv6 tunnel at any rate) and have found it much easier to get working on XP on my netbook. Just paste a line into a bat file that runs at boot up and bingo! For some reason in Win7 I cannot fathom why it works 'sometimes' when pasting in the relevant stuff at the CMD prompt. But can often break IPv4 functionality. I cannot even get an IPv6 tunnel to work on my fathers BT fiber.

    1. Alan Brown Silver badge

      Re: All well and good but...

      "...why is IPv6 so frustrating to get working? In Win7 I find it difficult to setup (well for my IPv6 tunnel at any rate)"

      That was the tunnel. If you have a DHCP server which assigns IPv6, it "just works"

      Similar issues with address assignments used to crop up in the early 90s when everyone manually set their IP addresses even on dialup. Moving to server assignments sorted 99.9% of the issues people used to encounter and TCP/IP stopped being "hard" for users.

  7. This post has been deleted by its author

  8. WatAWorld

    When other countries move to IPv6 it will free up IPv4 address space for the laggards.

    When other countries move to IPv6 it will free up IPv4 address space for the laggard nations.

    So the UK lagging other nations is not an issue, provided other nations are making the switch, and they are.

    If all nations were failing to take action, that would be a problem.

    1. Big Chief Running Bare

      Re: When other countries move to IPv6 it will free up IPv4 address space for the laggards.

      If that's true it relies on these countries (or companies) handing ip ranges back. History tells us this isnt the case. The best case is there is a market for ipv4. I seem to remember $10 per ip being the rate. No doubt that is passed on to the customer's bill! Being the last to move to ipv6 looks a flawed strategy if you expect networks to grow.

    2. Alan Brown Silver badge

      Re: When other countries move to IPv6 it will free up IPv4 address space for the laggards.

      "When other countries move to IPv6 it will free up IPv4 address space for the laggard nations."

      When other countries/research nets/etc move to IPv6, they'll disappear over yur IPv4 event horizon.

      The well-maintained parts of China are all on IPv6-only (ipv4 areas are pretty much run by cluetards). Core academic networks are IPv6 only. Various other networks I care to talk to are IPv6 only.

      Most IPv4 registries are out of address space. If you want new v4 assignments then you have to find someone who doesn't need the space they're using and pay an extortionate fee to them to get a transfer.

      Ipv6 utterly kills that secondary market, which is why some outfits are railing hard against it (Similar to the way drug dealers don't _want_ illegal items to be liegal - it takes away their profit margins)

      1. Matt Bryant Silver badge
        Stop

        Re: Alan Brown Re: When other countries move to IPv6 it will free up IPv4 address....

        ".....When other countries/research nets/etc move to IPv6, they'll disappear over yur IPv4 event horizon....." Of course, because adding IPv6 magically makes your scientists smarter, your teachers better, and your businessmen just so much quicker off the mark. Not. Oh, BTW, what is the majority of the US and Europe, still the largest economies and producers of the most research, running? Why, IPv4!

        "......Most IPv4 registries are out of address space. If you want new v4 assignments then you have to find someone who doesn't need the space they're using and pay an extortionate fee to them to get a transfer......" Was that someone insisting we're all about to drown (again, for the five-thousandth time)?

        1. Big Chief Running Bare

          Re: Alan Brown When other countries move to IPv6 it will free up IPv4 address....

          @matt bryant, time to define "drowning"!

          The world will not end, existing services on the internet continue to work.

          But the internet is all about growth. In an ip address stiffled world then complexity rises. As nat is layered on nat and kludge on kludge then to bring on next million users is more expensive each time. Rising costs in those centralised gateways and in the savvy staff you need to run the complex network.

          I've seen country wide isps looking to divide the country into regions to stretch ip addressing. Others virtualising data centres just to provide pods of consumers with the usual services that could be amalgamated if addressing was unique. Costs rise when they should be getting lower. And complexity and kludge makes services flakey and blocks innovation (see Alan Browns experience with carrier grade NAT. Now enough of the content is dual stack the networks will drag us kicking and screaming in to the new world, else face a lingering decay.

  9. WatAWorld

    Does IPv6 gives each device a permanant IP address -- if so boon for spies and criminals.

    Correct me if this has changed, but originally (several years ago or more) the plan with IPv6 was for each device to have a permanent IPv6 address.

    *IF* this is still the case IPv6 is going to be a boon for spy agencies, criminals, and targeted advertising companies.

    So, is this still the plan? Will IPv6 addresses be permanent in the same sense that MAC addresses are today?

    1. Vic

      Re: Does IPv6 gives each device a permanant IP address -- if so boon for spies and criminals.

      > the plan with IPv6 was for each device to have a permanent IPv6 address.

      No, that's never been the plan.

      There is *one possible* scheme for issuing link-local addresses that derives fom the MAC address, but it is not a mandatory part of the standard, and is only used for lcoal addressing - Internet-bound packets will get an address from the local allocation, which is very much *not* fixed.

      > Will IPv6 addresses be permanent in the same sense that MAC addresses are today?

      Not outside the LAN, no.

      Vic.

    2. Big Chief Running Bare
      Alert

      Re: Does IPv6 gives each device a permanant IP address -- if so boon for spies and criminals.

      IPv6 is same as a public IPv4 address in this regard. You can have dynamic publics and static publics, what ever your provider offers. To suggest this is an IPv6 thing is wrong. It exists today. Its private addresses and NAT that disappear with IPV6. (And you can achieve any perceived security benefits from NAT with a basic v6 firewall on your router if that's what you want- block outside -in connections being made)

  10. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    My ISP now gives out semi-permanent IP addresses by default

    My ISP (Shaw in Canada) now gives out semi-permanent IP addresses by default.

    https://community.shaw.ca/thread/7157

    To change your IP address you can either:

    - unplug the modem/NAT box for 7 days,

    - change your MAC address (not possible to do if you use their standard modem/router),

    - or phone them up and ask for it to be manually changed.

    It has been like this for a couple of years now. Before that you only needed to unplug for 24 hours.

    If I had young children or tweens I'd be concerned about what this means for privacy and safety, but I don't.

  11. Medixstiff

    I'm still waiting...

    Well Internode in Aus. was trialling IPv6 but there's not been much in the general news about it since iiNet bought them out.

    I've tested it on my Billion router internally with no issues, I really cannot wait to go IPv6 because then I won't have to be stuck on an iiNet Business plan just so I can have a static address, by rights, I don't see any reason why ISP's shouldn't supply static IPv6 addresses because of the number of addresses available.

  12. incloud

    IPv6 supports stateless address autoconfiguration which means a device's source address can be automatically changed every few hours or days. This is far more privacy enabling then IPv4 NAT because your ISP does not own a database containing your address mapping, and can not share it with a third-party (legally anyway). No web site or third-party server will be able to track you for more than a short period without using a persistent cookie.

    This feature needs to be easily available in your device, as it is for example with Microsoft Windows. Interestingly this is not available in some mobile devices such as Android. This needs to be required by law.

  13. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Would this work?

    New ADSL/DSL router with IPv6 and NAT. Could everything on my internal network then stay the same?

    If yes could I still host any services accessible from the outside. e.g. My NAS?

    Most users don't host any services!

    1. SImon Hobson Bronze badge

      Re: Would this work?

      >> Could everything on my internal network then stay the same?

      Basically, yes.

      There's a lot of FUD about, and a lot of the criticisms derive from the workarounds people have to do now to get around lack of ISP support. Eg, my ISP doesn't do IPv6 yet (but they've had a trial and are working towards it) - in the meantime I'm using a tunnel service from Hurricane Electric.

      This does mean I have a few extra config lines in my router (a virtual Debian GNU/Linux box), but **ALL** the complexity is handled in the router.

      From an end user POV, what should happen is : User signs up with ISP, ISP sends out pre-configured* router, user plugs it in, user equipment gets both IPv4 (as they do now) and IPv6 (which is new) addresses from the router.

      So at present, user just plug in and their equipment gets an IPv4 address - the user doesn't need to do anything (other than connect to the wireless for wireless devices). When ISPs are IPv6 enabled, "nothing happens" to the user experience - their equipment will just auto-configure both IPv4 and IPv6.

      What does change is that for IPv6 connections, there's no NAT - so that means a whole shedload of complexity disappears - complexity which many users don't see because clever programmers spent lots of effort working round the problems when they could have been building better <whatever>. I can assure you that there has been a **LOT** of (IMO) wasted developer time expended on working round the breakage that is inherent in NAT. NAT is only "not a problem: because of all this effort into working round it.

      On the security front, a basic stateful firewall will give you all the security that NAT ever gave (and more). On the privacy side, a device is quite free** to change it's IPv6 address within the subnet - and it's got millions of addresses to go at. All these will be tied back to your assigned network range - so consider IPv6 range == IPv4 address in terms of privacy. Eg, if you have a fixed IPv4 address now, everything done by your devices is linkable to your connection by the single external address - for a fixed IPv6 assignment, you'll have millions of address (actually 2^64 minimum), but they'll all be linked to your connection. If your assignments are dynamic, then they will change periodically - and the privacy issues are just the same (if <someone> wants to identify you, they can go to court, show proper reason, and get an order for your ISP to say who that address (IPv4) or range (IPv6) was assigned to at any point in time).

      * Actually, I think they use a remote configuration protocol so it gets configured when plugged in, but I'd not looked at that side of things.

      ** I forget what the term is called, but some devices will default to using a fixed address based on the MAC address. Some default to using a dynamic address that it changes from time to time.

      Of course, technical users can mess around with fixed addresses for servers, opening ports in the firewall etc. An average user doesn't need to.

      Another facet of all this is that these days it's getting less and less necessary to use IP addresses. So much now uses multicast DNS (aka mDNS, Bonjour, ZeroConf, …) so that one device can advertise on it's network all the services it offers - and other devices can automatically detect them and present them to the user. So, for example, your new printer should just plug in, systems can "just find it", and you may even see an entry for it in your browser's bar (for web management) - you you don't need to know it's IPv4 or IPv6 address (both of which will be dynamic) in order to configure and use it.

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