back to article It's the '90s all over again: Apple repeats mistakes as low-cost tablets pile up

Apple risks repeating the mistakes of the 1990s as it sticks to a high price strategy on its iPads and other products, even as the surging tablet market heads for excess inventory in the fourth quarter. Kicking off its Asian channels forum, Canalys CEO Steve Brazier said that tablets currently took 35 per cent of the device …

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                  1. Lusty

                    Re: @ Wibble - iPads are expensive? @Lusty

                    " if I am somewhere that doesn't have wireless coverage"

                    But seriously, how often do you actually visit the 80s? I mean I know the kids like it retro but the only time I've been outside coverage in the last few years was in the middle of the Irish Sea on a yacht. We didn't have the necessary wired infrastructure either. If you're somewhere with a wired network and no wireless...fit wireless don't buy a dock.

                    1. Zolko Silver badge

                      Re: @ Wibble - iPads are expensive? @Lusty

                      "if I am somewhere that doesn't have wireless coverage"

                      "But seriously, how often do you actually visit the 80s?

                      in my building, there is no WiFi because some people are concerned about the electromagnetic waves. Also, for security reasons, we're encouraged by the admins to use wired ethernet. Those people with MacBook Airs need the extra USB<=>ETH dongle, that they regularly forget.

                    2. Tom 13

                      Re: But seriously, how often do you actually visit the 80s?

                      Twice a day Monday through Friday. Once on my way to work, once on the way home.

                      It's where I use my tablet the most because I don't even want to lug the laptop. I ride the train. I once bought one of those new-fangled 4G smart phones thinking I could hot spot it to my laptop and surf while riding. No such luck. Getting 3G signal was 50-50 and there were several spots along the trek where you can't even make phone calls. Severed the contract with the phone company. Bought a tablet with the refund for my hardware.

                1. WhoaWhoa

                  Re: @ Wibble - iPads are expensive? @Dave126

                  "Apple don't give a shit if you want to glue your iPad to the desk, but that's no reason for the other 169999999 iPad users to be lumbered with an RJ45 socket."

                  The lumberment that's used by so many for actual work because it's more reliable and faster than radio waves?

                  As for Apple not giving a shit, can't argue with that.

        1. JEDIDIAH
          Mushroom

          Re: @ Wibble - iPads are expensive?

          I bought a "cheapo" tablet on a whim because it was cheap enough to be an impulse buy.

          The local iPad fan promptly DUMPED that iPad and her iPhone soon after.

          1. Lusty

            Re: @ Wibble - iPads are expensive?

            "I bought a "cheapo" tablet on a whim because it was cheap enough to be an impulse buy."

            I sense you're of the mindset that iPad buyers don't consider them cheap enough to be an impulse buy?

            That's how I ended up with mine, I was in the shop and thought "what the hell, they seem popular..." but the next one will have been thoroughly thought through. It's still going to be an iPad but I respect you and your friends for finding the cheapo tablets good enough for your requirements.

            Unfortunately they don't meet mine (I have tried) as I need better support than they offer such as ongoing OS updates from the vendor and the ability to get it immediately swapped out in a shop and up to the minute data restored if it breaks so I can continue working.

            1. This post has been deleted by its author

            2. WhoaWhoa

              Re: @ Wibble - iPads are expensive?

              "Unfortunately they don't meet mine (I have tried) as I need better support than they offer such as ongoing OS updates from the vendor and the ability to get it immediately swapped out in a shop and up to the minute data restored if it breaks so I can continue working."

              So your requirements are a warm feeling, if a somewhat undiscerning and reality-challenged one?

            3. WhoaWhoa

              Re: @ Wibble - iPads are expensive?

              "... but the next one will have been thoroughly thought through. It's still going to be an iPad..."

              Why not just save yourself the effort of a thorough thinking through, then?

      1. danny_0x98

        Re: @ Wibble - iPads are expensive?

        An excellent point, if playing Angry Birds is the sole task assigned to the device.

    1. Glostermeteor

      Re: iPads are expensive?

      I agree with you that iPads are very high quality kit. The problem I have with them (and I use both Android tablets and iPads) is what you can actually do with them (or not as the case may be). The iPad misses some hugely basic pieces of functionality, such as being able to hook up USB devices and having a ridiculous file system whereby no app is able to store files in a central place. The latter causes huge issues, as if like me you want to be able to do fairly simple things like send an email to a client with multiple PDF attachments, on the iPad there just does not seem to be a way of doing it, you can only push files out from one app at a time to the Mail client, and that opens up separate emails. On my Androids all I have to do is hit the Attachments button and add all the files I need to the email.

      Another huge missing piece on an iPad is the ability to easy transfer files and file types from one system to another. If you want to put music or video on your pad the only way currently is through iTunes, or use a cloud storage system which takes an AGE to actually do. The other week I went on a business trip and I wanted to put a movie on my iPad for the flight. On my Android devices its just a case of plugging in a usb stick or a microSD card and away I go, on the iPad it literally took me 2 hours to put 1 movie on the device, I first had to boot up my PC, convert the AVI file into MPEG4 (which took the bulk of the time, import the MPEG4 into iTunes and then upload it to the iPad (4 steps on the iPad vs just 1 on the Android).

      The big piece that apple is missing is the fact that the world is shifting to a place whereby you will want to have ONE device that does everything, i.e. a tablet that also functions as your computer. It's ok charging £400+ for a device if it is your main device but it's a pretty hard sell to convince someone they should buy an iPad when in reality they will also need a laptop or desktop as well to do what they need to do. With the latest incarnations of the Surface and Asus Transformer devices you dont need a PC anymore. I dumped my PC last year when I got my Asus Transformer and I haven't looked back since. There is hardly anything I cannot do on my Transformer that I could not do on a PC, whereas the iPad just is not in the zone to actually become a standalone device. Apple might be doing well for now but I think they will start to die a slow death unless they either become more open OR they drop their prices significantly so that people can still justify having 2 devices and 2 platforms.

      1. big_D Silver badge

        Re: iPads are expensive? @Gloster

        I agree, I want one device. I use a Windows 8 tablet, because, FOR ME, it is the most convinient. I can plug it into a desktop dock and use an external monitor, keyboard and mouse plus Ethernet to do my normal work on multiple screens.

        Then on the road I have a tablet with 10+ hour battery life, tablet friendly apps, access to all my data and also access to my desktop applications, if I need to change something "business" related on the fly. If only it had an LTE slot and I could make phone calls with it, I could dump my smartphone as well... I'd just then need a simple media player for podcasts/audio books when walking the dog.

      2. Lusty

        Re: iPads are expensive?

        "The big piece that apple is missing is the fact that the world is shifting to a place whereby you will want to have ONE device that does everything, i.e. a tablet that also functions as your computer."

        While YOU may want this, 170 million other people have chosen to buy the iPad and countless more would buy an iPad if they could afford the price tag. Try to separate out what you want and what "people" want in future, if you were right then you'd be running the most valuable company on the planet rather than Tim Cook :)

      3. Tom 13

        Re:the world is shifting to a place whereby you will want to have ONE device that does everything,

        No, it's not.

        Some people are, others aren't. I'm a multiple devices guy. Not that I like a fist full of remotes, but it's what I wind up with. I have a laptop which I use for somethings, a desktop for my power user work and a tablet for play on the train. The desktop cost me about $2000 when I put it all together many, many moons back. Lenovo laptop ran me about $700 from Woot two or three years back when my previous Lenovo finally died. Tablet was $49. If you were a vendor, which one of those would you want to sell me? I think it's safe to say the tablet would not be your first choice, even if I pick up a new one every year. I have a friend who has essentially the same assortment except his laptop and phone are from work. Oh, and I think he dropped about $3K on components for his desktop.

    2. Daz555

      Re: iPads are expensive?

      iPads - very very nice pieces of hardware. I'd love to have one - if only I could get rid of the car crash which is iOS.

    3. Tom 13

      Re: iPads are expensive?

      My $49 Android tablet (from of all companies Polaroid) is working pretty well for me. So well I bought my dad one the next time I saw it on sale on Woot.

  1. deadlockvictim

    Now

    What should Apple have done 20-25 years' ago?

    The macs that came out in the late 80's and early 90's were all overpriced. Apple could have surely increased her market share with cheaper macs. However, in relation to PCs the low end macs (LCs and Performas) in the mid-90's weren't especially expensive and were quite popular.

    Apple divided people then as they do now. I remember university students have clear preferences as to the macs and PCs. Both were available. Both had the same software installed. There were some faculty differences — the PCs in architecture went almost unused as did the macs in the business school.

    Apple went mad with product diversication from the mid-90s onwards and also seemed to lose its focus with the plethora of new products (Newtons, QuickTakes and so on) . It lost out with Windows 95 or rather the competition was beginning to catch up then.

    Another factor was the role of the Killer App. Apple had its cute OS, PhotoShop and PageMaker (and Quark and friends) up to the mid-90's and these made Macs very popular then. In the mid-90s the first First-Person-Shooters started appearing and they were released initially for DOS. Doom, Quake, Unreal would follow and with the introduction of Windows 95, the PCs had their own Killer Apps and mac sales suffered as a consequence. I switched from macs to PCs on account of games — Half Life, in particular.

    So, back to the question — What should Apple do? licence iOS to third parties as they were encouraged to do back in the early 90s? That almost killed them when they did it with System 7.

    Develop a plethora of barely indistinguishable products? That didn't help them either.

    Apple occupies the upper end of the market. They can't stay as they are and be all things to all people. Competition and diversity eventually kick in. Besides the upper end of the market is a nice place to be, as they long as they don't annoy their current users and drive them away.

    1. WhoaWhoa

      Re: Now

      "It lost out with Windows 95 or rather the competition was beginning to catch up then."

      The same competition that had 90+% of the market vs. Apple's 5%? And most of the 5% were the sort of people who believed that they were creative(s) because they boasted a logo.

      Plus ça change, plus c'est la même

      1. deadlockvictim

        Re: Now

        In the early to mid-nineties, Apple had about 10% of the computer market. I think it had its peak year in 1993 with 12%. Certainly in my university there was one-to-one parity between macs (mostly LCs) and PCs (386s and some 486s).

        1. DiViDeD

          Re: Now

          Not sure about Apple's market share in the 90s. Maybe it was 10-12% in the US, but in Europe I knew of 2 people who had Apple kit. One was a PC developer who was interested in playing with HyperCard and bought a Mac specifically for that. The other was the sales director of STC (the company formerly known as Standard Telephone Cables), who bought an Apple II for his son, discovered in short order that it wouldn't run any of the games his son wanted to play, and discreetly swapped it out for an IBM PC-AT from the company.

          As far as 'creative' types were concerned, the studios I worked in back then were far more likely to have an ST or STFM than anything from the fruity end of the market

        2. Tom 13

          Re: early to mid-nineties, Apple had about 10%

          Don't forget about the years the Fanbois all want to memory hole:

          When fortunately for a nearly bankrupt Apple, the hated Bill Gates was so desperate to avoid being regulated in the US as a monopoly that abused its power he was willing to loan them enough money for a long enough time period that they could turn the ship around.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: early to mid-nineties, Apple had about 10%

            Well, I believe the actual story was that Steve presented Bill was absolute, unequivocal evidence that MS had indeed copied a piece of Apple software. However, instead of suing MS, Steve offered Bill an "honorable" alternative, to wit, the famous 150m investment etc. It was an excellent investment for MS/BillG. MS remain one of the largest software vendors on Mac.

    2. WhoaWhoa

      Re: Now

      "Apple occupies the upper end of the market."

      There is a cult which holds that as a tenet of their quirky, sometimes amusing, belief system.

      1. Kristian Walsh Silver badge

        "Upper end of the market"

        Nonsense. The iPhone broke out of its ivory tower long ago. Carrier subsidies have made both iPhone and iPad (mobile-data models) available to just about anyone, whether they can afford one or not.

        The reason that iOS still commands the most revenue is that to date, the spendthrift early adopters have stayed with the platform. But this is a fickle market, very image-conscious, and if they start seeing their precious Apple logo too often in dole queues and on the wrong street corners, then they'll start looking for something more exclusive.

        Apple's hiring of former Burberry CEO Angela Ahrendt shows an awareness of this issue: Burberry is the classic example of brand erosion, and Ms Ahrendt did a very good job of pulling Burberry out of the mess they had dug themselves into.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: "Upper end of the market"

          Loans, not subsidies. Carriers loan customer part or all of the cost of the devices, this is repaid over the duration of a contract, usually 2 years.

          Been a great business model for Apple (and others), especially in the USA, hiding the true cost of a device.

    3. danny_0x98

      Re: Now

      You beg quite a few questions.

      That Apple would have done better by pricing to increase share. In the PC market these days it does very well in terms of profit with only 5% share.

      Apple never was the leader in share. Businesses mostly bought IBM and later IBM compatible pcs. The significant reason for your next choice of computer and os is two-fold: what applications you have and, if Windows-based applications, what's Microsoft current version of Windows. Apple could not have ever had an iPod or even iPhone level win in the 80s and 90s pc market. All computers were expensive until the late 90s.

      And look at the PC market, every couple of years the price of the good-enough pc drops a hundred dollars. And Windows remains the same price. What you see is a better deal for consumers and Microsoft and a worse deal for the OEMs. Take a look today, as the total volume of pcs sold declines, the quality manufacturers are posting sales growth. This contradicts the essential position that those who succeed in the quality sector of the market are doomed to erosion from below. It doesn't invalidate the position, the contradiction suggests that something more complex is at play.

      Did you notice in the figures cited that Windows had better share than Apple? Yet Apple is the one run over by the Android juggernaut. Seems as though the hypothesis would suggest that Windows couldn't possibly gain.

      Today file formats are fairly interchangeable and a native app frequently is a portal to networked information, the os is an implementation detail. The fundamental problem for Apple, say 1996, was that it was not in the running. Today, it's that it is easier to switch platforms. The more comparable player of the 80s to Apple today is not Apple 1984 but IBM 1987; after a 25 year run, it sold its pc business to Lenovo. Do the above models suggest that dooooom is Apple selling the iPhone business to someone else in 2032?

      Here's my take. The internet/world-wide-web made the pc a consumer electronics item. It was priced too high at the outset of that era, but by the time broad-band became widespread, costs had come down. Apple was not prepared for this. Microsoft got on board with ethernet rather than its proprietary LAN solution (vines). Apple was not prepared for this. Microsoft got its act together with Windows and added value to the DOS users of the world who upgraded. Apple wasn't prepared for this. Microsoft got its act together with regards to NT. Apple was not prepared for that. Intel had fierce competition with AMD and processor speeds got a lot better real fast. Apple was on Motorola's architecture and its processor was good enough for most of Motorola's customers. MacOS required the users to have too much knowledge about memory sharing for applications. The os that was for the rest of us became the os for those who do math and have an aesthetic.* Their internal projects to bring MacOS into the 90s failed and probably over the sticky problem of making it modern and compatible with customer's applications.** Apple was beset on many sides.

      Licensing the os, in retrospect, looks like a classic case of someone tragically believing their press releases.

      Apple came back, but not buying share. They embraced the processor as the heart of a consumer electronics device and fully-voiced said "We're the brand for your quality time." Most of the competitors, today, even though it's absolutely clear what Apple did, still say "You need us for work."

      (* That might be me, and I bailed from Mac in 1996. Started leaving Windows in 1999 and after a not unpleasant journey through Linux and FreeBSD on home-built machines came back to Mac in 2001 with OS X 10.1.)

      (** The interim period of Classic and OS X was a fair compromise, but hardly pleasant for those who needed to do things wanting to use Cocoa apps side-by-side with applications that were MacOS 9.2 bound.)

    4. Zolko Silver badge

      Re: Now

      "Develop a plethora of barely indistinguishable products? That didn't help them either."

      it did with the iPod: from the Nano to the Shuffle, the Touch, the Classic ... why wouldn't that work for tablets ? Especially as a 5 inch iNote with a pen would be very popular with business-men, and would go pack to the original Newton. Except that Samsung did it first, and they couldn't paint themselves as "innovators" with that.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Now @zolko

        Wow, you mean Samsung had a touch screen tablet before the Apple Newton?

        Wow, who knew?

        (In case you missed it, your final statement is illogical in the extreme)

        1. Zolko Silver badge

          Re: Now @zolko

          @AC: right, the sentence is bad english : Samsung makes the Galaxy Note with a pen, and because of the lawsuit where Apple accuses Samsung to only copy and not innovate, Apple can't now make an iNote with a pen because that would invalidate the Samsung-are-copying-us argument (imagine how silly they would look in the court). Even though Apple did the Newton 15 years ago, and even though many people would buy it.

  2. Blarkon

    When Whitman says Enterprise Management she means Android

    Now that HP has jumped off Windows, I'm assuming that by Enterprise Management she means Android or Linux.

    1. Tom 13

      Re: When Whitman says Enterprise Management she means Android

      No she means Enterprise Management. HP like IBM are moving away from the low end commodity market and into the service market. Agnostic about platform, selling knowledge more than hardware, but grabbing profitable hardware opportunities if they are low hanging fruit.

  3. Pete 2 Silver badge

    Diversify

    The Apple "brand" is known to be high price, high status. If it tries to introduce cheap products, it will devalue the whole line and lose its cachet. (Just as you don't see a budget-priced Rolls-Royce).

    The solution would be for Apple to open a second line: extolling the virtues of "It's still an Apple", but with its own branding, style, lower prices and possibly less ornamental value.

    If they did that skillfully, it wouldn't canabalise their premium offerings as it would address a different market. After all if Unilever can manage to market both Persil and Surf, you'd think that Apple could work out how to sell iPads and <some-other>Pads.

    The only question is: would it have to start suing it's own arse off for patent infringements?

    1. Growly Snuffle Bunny
      Trollface

      Re: Diversify

      "The solution would be for Apple to open a second line: extolling the virtues of "It's still an Apple", but with its own branding, style, lower prices and possibly less ornamental value."

      They tried that on the 5C, but didn't have the branding in place.

      May I suggest - 'Lemon'?

    2. WhoaWhoa

      Re: Diversify

      "The Apple "brand" is known to be high price, high status."

      High price, yes.

      High status?

      You're not including the bemused mockers?

      A few years back there were many who considered shell suits and gold medallions to be the sort of high status they aspired to.

      iChavs on iPhones fill the streets and bars these days. Hadn't you noticed?

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Diversify

      You do see a lower price Rolls, it is called a BMW. BMW owns both brands and Mini too and make a wide range of products from sort of affordable up. Mercedes also has a wide range of cars and trucks and their top end sales remain quite strong thanks.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Diversify

        A BMW is in no way a lower priced Rolls. I own many things, doesn't make them all the same...

        (Good thinking though, are you the guy with the challenged children posting above? I see where they get it from....)

      2. Intractable Potsherd

        Re: Diversify

        "Mercedes also has a wide range of cars and trucks and their top end sales remain quite strong thanks."

        Well, I tend to view Mercedes as a company with too much diversification, and, as such, assume they don't do anything very well. A company that makes (relatively) small hatchbacks (A-Class), a range of saloons that are used as taxis in many countries, executive mile-munchers, luxury models, Chelsea tractors, genuine off-roaders from car size to serious beasts (Unimog), vans, trucks and buses strikes me as jack-of-all-trades, and master of none. I think they may be the only company with such a spread of interests under the same badge, thought there are others with the same impression (Renault, for instance), and I wouldn't buy one of those, either.

    4. DAN*tastik

      Re: Diversify

      I don't know how a brand can be high status when it clearly means "I wish I could afford Vertu, but I can't".

  4. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    As much as I hate to admit..

    As another commenter pointed out, Apple occupy the high end of the market.

    The problem with being there is that it's not an unassailable position if you remain static, people will copy your style, they'll make their own quality products to rival yours and they will eventually out innovate you if you don't continue to create new product for new markets.

    Unfortunately Apple now seem to be chasing the lower end of the market and cheapening the brand instead of adding more value or creating new. They need a visionary to inspire them, a new Jobs and they've not got one.

    I foresee some very tough times ahead.

    1. DAN*tastik

      Re: As much as I hate to admit..

      Their style is so desirable that Braun started copying it in the 60s or 70. How they got away with it, I don't know.

  5. Richard Jones 1
    WTF?

    An Interesting Conundrum

    Apple are still making a great deal of money, perhaps as much as a 40% margin on every item they sell. At the moment only those commenting see them hurting, perhaps from carrying the cash to a non taxed bolt hole.

    There may come a time when the market model does not work but at the moment it continues that way with some people happy to buy almost anything (except an expensive cheap iPhone an oxymoron!) with an Apple price tag and an Apple name badge. I am not sure Apple need to change.

    Apart from Apple there are a range of other niches, yes there is the land fill end of the market and a wholesale range of layers in between.

    Surely this is simply a market with choice?

    Frankly I like market choice it allows me to chose what to buy or ignore.

    So far I have ignored all pads, tablets, slates, etc. as useless to ME.

    Choice, its a personal thing..

    None of the market segments is staying still all are still evolving and some have further to evolve than others.

    As for children 'knowing what's best', my 5 month old grandchild loves to play kick with the 25 year old makers shiny tag on a pram, often preferring it to a new toy. I am not sure that this is a good test of what is best.

    Perhaps when she goes to playgroups she will be told by peer group pressure that this label is good and that bad but is peer pressure a prime arbiter of anything more than playground fashion?

    What if little Jonny says its cool to carry a knife, will that also make knives a must have accessory?

    God I hope not!

    1. John 172

      Re: An Interesting Conundrum

      "What if little Jonny says its cool to carry a knife, will that also make knives a must have accessory?"

      That's exactly what does happen and why gang culture is so corrosive to society.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: An Interesting Conundrum

      "What if little Jonny says its cool to carry a knife, will that also make knives a must have accessory?"

      Yes! cause people are idiots! The proof can be seen on a daily basis.

      NEVER under estimate the stupidity of the great unwashed. How do you think Apple got so rich, and will lose the cash just as quickly.

    3. Tom 13

      Re: An Interesting Conundrum

      But knives have always been a must have accessory. I have my Buck with my all the time.

  6. TKMatt

    Buy cheap, buy twice

    Apple do charge too much for their products, but people buy the iPad because they know it's going to work. I've tested several cheaper tablets and with the exception of the Kindle Fire they've all performed poorly. Little things like apps taking a while to open, or laggy text input etc all add up over time and they become painful to use.

    I was using a Nexus 7 over summer to dip my toe into Android development, and after using the iPad I just found the whole experience lacking. The screen isn't as bright, the colours look a little washed out and on the whole it just felt slower.

    I'm not saying Apple are the only company making good tablets, but the others who do are charging similar prices to Apple.

    1. sabroni Silver badge
      Thumb Up

      Re: Buy cheap, buy twice

      and still save a couple of hundred quid....

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      OMG!

      "Apple do charge too much for their products, but people buy the iPad because they know it's going to work. - So how does this explain those who RETURN their iPad? And yes there are plenty of people who do!

      I've tested several cheaper tablets and with the exception of the Kindle Fire they've all performed poorly. Little things like apps taking a while to open, or laggy text input etc all add up over time and they become painful to use. - Want a faster processor and more memory, pay for it! There is no compasrison between devices of differing specifications (but you knew that already, didn't you?)

      I was using a Nexus 7 over summer to dip my toe into Android development, and after using the iPad I just found the whole experience lacking. The screen isn't as bright, the colours look a little washed out and on the whole it just felt slower. - What are you comparing? Were the devices of same spec? Just "BOO HOO"!

      I'm not saying Apple are the only company making good tablets, but the others who do are charging similar prices to Apple. - Do you think that the "others" would offer their wares for less money? Which planet are you on?

      "

      1. TKMatt
        Facepalm

        Re: OMG!

        Of course people return iPads - all products have a certain amount of problem units. I don't think anyone would claim otherwise.

        The Nexus 7 actually outspecs the iPad mini and the iPad 2 - the two iPads I'm most familiar with. It's cheaper, and yet it still doesn't match for performance. Specs mean very little when comparing iOS to Android because Android works in an entirely different way. If iOS used the same Java-based app platform as Android then specs would be an issue, but Android is outperformed by just about every other mobile OS, even on "inferior" specs.

        What I'm saying is that you can buy an iPad and get a product that 99/100 times will work and perform very well. Spending a similar amount on something like the Galaxy tab or a Nexus 10 won't get you that same performance. Maybe if they ditched Android there'd be more competition, but until they do (or Android ditches the Java/Dalvik combo) there's no question that the iPad is the best tablet on the market for performance.

  7. Frankee Llonnygog

    My meta-analysis of analysts' predictions predicts ...

    ... they're wrong.

    They need to spend more time looking over Apple's fundamentals and less time looking up their own fundaments.

  8. the_LocoCoyote

    Yes yes...

    we know, we know....Apple is doomed (again? still?...whatever)

    wake up and look around you....

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