back to article Nokia shareholder tells CEO Elop he's going to hell

Nokia CEO Stephen Elop has been taking flak from angry shareholders at the company's annual investor's conference, with accusations flying that he's running the company into the ground by keeping Nokia as a Windows-only operation. "You're a nice guy ... and the leadership team is doing its best, but clearly, it's not enough," …

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  1. MacroRodent
    Unhappy

    Too late to switch again

    Of course it is clear that going with Windows Phone was an epic mistake. It was clear to most people even two years ago.

    But now the transition is complete, and Lumia phone sales have started to pick up. The latest models have received good reviews (despite, or because of, WP8). If Nokia announced a switch to Android now, it would AGAIN "osborne" its current product line, and re-start an expensive transition period. It would be unable to survive this.

    In short, Nokia may or may not survive with Windows Phone. It will certainly not survive by switching horses again.

    1. garyc2011

      Re: Too late to switch again

      "In short, Nokia may or may not survive with Windows Phone. It will certainly not survive by switching horses again."

      Yes but thats the point..............THEY DON'T HAVE TO SWITCH !!!!!!!

      Why can't they release even ONE Android Handset ????? - Just plain Vanilla Android - No fancy skins and a decent design with a good camera, swappable battery, and SD Card.

      I guarantee it would outsell WP Lumias in under a year.

      They seem to be releasing a new Lumia every month this year, so clearly it's not a resource issue.

      I fear it's in the MS agreement that forbids any such thing.

      1. Adam 1

        Re: Too late to switch again

        I suspect there are a few billion "good reasons" to remain wp only.

  2. Paranoid Infosec Guy
    Mushroom

    Nokia N900

    Just reissue the N900 with a better battery and I would be happy.

    1. tomban
      Thumb Up

      Re: Nokia N900

      N900 was a pretty good device, let down by a few things including the OS.

      It was the last Nokia I owned, after being faithful for years.

      1. garyc2011

        Re: Nokia N900

        Yeah I had an n900, got one of the first batches in the UK (cost 500 quid if I remember rightly), amazing hardware, but the OS was full of bugs, and It took Nokia AGEs to release PR1.2, and when It arrived it was a let down.

        Funny because of the way Nokia end-of-lifed it after just a few months, it was my last Nokia too, I owned mostly Nokia over the last 14 years, including most of the communicators (the first ones were massive and heavy, but amazing for the time)

    2. James 51

      Re: Nokia N900

      I still have my n900 as a backup phone. A spare battery that is easily swapped solved the battery life issue for me.

      Got a 9320 and a playbook after the keyboard got a crack and couldn't find a replacement. Pity, in many mays it's still head of lots of the competition (keyboard, stylus, flash support, ability to get full linux and apps working (v slowly), swappable battery, micro sd, proper multi-tasking etc. Some phones have some of these but tricky to find one that has them all and I avoid android as I don't want to be the product).

  3. gaz 7
    Mushroom

    If Nokia had any guts...

    They would release an Android phone AND one based on Jolla (nee Meego)

    Also need a slidey keyboard one, as well as a slate. The N9/N950 combo would have sold well had the last little wrinkles been ironed out. Nokia had great R&D and great ideas, what it needed was great management of that R&D not chucking it out in favour of Microsoft.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: If Nokia had any guts...

      > Nokia had great R&D and great ideas

      Too much R&D, too many ideas, no focus, ridiculous time to market issues, and an utterly fragmented set of platforms. It was an app developers nightmare! Different underlying operating systems, different underlying API versions, different windowing systems, different screen aspect ratios. No wonder there were never any apps ...

      He's gotten one thing right - it's a battle of ecosystem and brand more than hardware (to a degree it always has been). Unfortunately MS are currently on the losing end of both of these. Not enough market share (across any phone vendor or tablet platform) to drive growth in the eco system, and simply a lot of collateral damage from the desktop Win8 bad publicity hitting WinPho. WinPho is _actually_ quite a nice OS, and the phones are pretty good.

      However there is pretty much no marketing currently which is going to get past the "Windows" brand tarnish - people see these at a Windows Phones made by Nokia, not Nokia Phones with Windows OS.

      1. Johan Bastiaansen
        Unhappy

        Re: If Nokia had any guts...

        "Too much R&D, too many ideas, no focus, ridiculous time to market issues, and an utterly fragmented set of platforms."

        Caused by big egos and small brains in upper management. It was all company politics and that's what killed them.

  4. Mark Burton
    Thumb Down

    but the American boss???

    If you can't get that fact correct, what hope of any others being correct.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: but the American boss???

      He is American - from Canada in North America...

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: but the American boss???

        Canadian != American.

  5. Vince

    What is interesting is that Microsoft don't seem that bothered about Nokia either. At the last few events I've been to where Windows Phone was being showcased, the MS staff made it quite clear that the HTC 8X is the preferred model and the one they all sported, recommended and said they would get. I'd have expected them to heavily sway for Nokia by corporate instruction but it seems not.

    Some have suggested MS are ultimately trying to kill Nokia to swoop in and get the patents. This may be true, but it seems a long winded way to do it.

    Why they killed everything is beyond all credibility to everyone bar the boss. They should have released some Android stuff, even if it was just to bridge the gap - after all, it is established, accepted and would have been readily available to ship by comparison, giving them money coming in while they developed the other strategies.

  6. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Where were Nokia's shareholders?

    When Nokia was incapable of turning Symbian into a competitive OS to iPhone (hardly an insurmountable task, looking how Android has done)? Or properly getting Meego off the ground? Back then was the time to shouting and screaming and telling Nokia to get its house in order. Now is too late.

  7. gautam

    Ditch him whlst still have some time.

    So whay cant the Nokia Board still ditch him and change course?

    OR are they awestruck by MS marketing money and staring at the sinkhole already?

    Strange are this corporate ways (american arrogance). WOnder who are the major fund/shareholders who can perhaps twist a few arms?

  8. pigor

    It's probably too late for Nokia to go for Android for their top-end offer: They have a working platform for smartphones and Android will only create "internal" competition.

    At the same time Nokia doesn't want to be dependant on others that Nokia perceive as competitors.

    Microsoft was not perceived as a competitor but more as a partner who could provide software and services that Nokia failed to develop.

    We shouldn't forget that Nokia failed horribly with their Ovi store too.

    Nokia is a good example of hubris at work.

    Lets remember a bit of history.

    Nokia were the leader in features phone as well as smart phones (Symbian S60) and they were rightly proud of their dominant position (50% of the global shipments).

    They never believed in touch screen, doing everything possible to kill them within Symbian.

    When the iPhone came out they dismissed it as a failure... when it was clear they were wrong they went in panic mode.

    Some says Nokia could have joined forces with UIQ to build on a platform already made for touch screen.

    But Nokia did not want to collaborate with other manufacturers, that's was clear.

    Nokia decided to slap some touch screen support on top of S60: the first phones were abhorrent, with the updated OS shipped too early with very little integration between the touch support and the UI.

    At the time Nokia has several strategic projects going on at the same time to counterbalance iPhone and their best engineers and designers (to don't mention budget) were split between them...

    several projects were axed and reborn in different ways.

    When finally S60 had a decent touch support and Meego was getting mature, Elop arrived!

  9. MJI Silver badge

    We have moved on

    Last 4 work mobiles, Nokia, last couple, Symbian

    Latest HTC Android

    1. garyc2011

      Re: We have moved on

      "Last 4 work mobiles, Nokia, last couple, Symbian"

      Did you not get the burning platform email ??? you were supposed to leave Symbian for WP not Android !

      Tsk tsk, Elop will be very cross :p

  10. That Steve Guy
    Pirate

    We all saw it years ago

    Putting all your eggs in the M$ was always going to be a flawed strategy.

    As others have said Nokia didn't have to go Windows exclusive, HTC, Samsung and many other manufacturers offer both Windows and Android.

    Make Elop walk the plank! Yarrr!

  11. Dave Bennett

    I feel dirty

    I feel dirty saying this, but the Lumia phones are starting to look like a very attractive option to me. My first (admittedly late) move to smartphones was to Android and I really didn't like it (This was possibly because it was a Sony device though). So to my shame I ended up getting into bed with Apple, and until recently I hadn't looked back.

    However I've fallen massively out of love with them, despite being well looked after my 4S is having endless problems (unluckily the problems started just after the warranty ended) and I'm finding the lack of change a bit tedious. A colleague has Windows Phone 7.8 and when I have had a play with that I like it a lot, miles better than Android IMHO.

    I think Nokia are missing a trick by not releasing a direct iPhone competitor - something all glass and steel and heavy, we all know that glass is a premium material, that's why my house is riddled with it. The 920 plastic feels pretty cheap to me, although saying that perhaps if my phone wasn't so 'premium' the power button would still be working.

    In my very small sample of myself and 1 friend, who was previously a rabid Apple fan, we are both uninspired by their latest offerings and are likely to move elsewhere. For me it's unlikely to be Android again.

    All that said, I don't see why Nokia don't release Android versions, aside from a bit of dev costs what harm can it do? It might keep Elop in a job for another couple of years... no doubt he's got some Faustian pact with Microsoft.

    Dave xnox

  12. Tumpin

    I hope it works out for Nokia

    I dont have all the answers but I dont think Nokia should release an Android handset. After Sony, HTC, LG, Motorola, Panasonic etc is there really room for yet another Galaxy clone with a Nokia badge on it? Is there anything more that can be done with Android that everyone else hasnt done already? Is there really room for them to get good sales numbers with Android? Will people run out and buy them just because its Nokia?

    At least right now they have an identity.

    I gotta say I like my WP8 better than my previous two Android devices. Its much better at being a phone than Android. I grew fed up with flashing Roms and poor quality apps. I now keep Android for my tablet as its more computer like.

    I have the Ativ S, I would have got a Lumina if it wasnt for the weird material they use. The new Nokia 928 Im very interested in come upgrade time.

    1. garyc2011

      Re: I hope it works out for Nokia

      "I dont have all the answers but I dont think Nokia should release an Android handset."

      You don't have to buy one but why deny others who would buy it ?

      Secondly Nokia could have differentiated with Android, with WP it's stuck with what MS says, and it looks 100% like every other WP........................

      And you got fed up with "poor quality apps" on Android ? so you prefer no apps now ? Sure only today Facebook ordered MS to take down dozens of fake/amateurish Facebook apps......then there is the instagraph app that uploads your pictures to other peoples account.....last week unofficial BBC app was polled for infringement.................yeah great apps.

      I always thought Samsung would step into the WP arena and take it over,flooding it with cheap handsets, killing off Nokia, simply to kill off WP once Tizen was ready, who knows it might still happen.

      1. Tumpin

        Re: I hope it works out for Nokia

        Its not about denting others, Im talking about Nokia's fortunes. If they released an Android handset would it change much for them? I dont see Android staying the way it is for much longer. I can see Google closing the best features in the future to help their Nexus range and Motorola. Even Samsung are trying to reduce their dependance on Goolge with Tizen. Will Tizen be a success? We all know its not just about making a good OS (look at Palm). Its the whole eco system.

        Windows gives Nokia good ties to the desktop, ties to Xbox, Outlook, Skydrive and other MS services. Windows is not going anywhere, once MS sorts out its fixes for Win8 it will be the standard for desktops and Nokia as the biggest player in windows Phone will benefit from that.

        Yes there are less apps on WinPhone but the main stuff is there and its growing fast. Of course you can find examples of bad ones but there are plenty of bad apps on Android. You talk of Facebook, look at the official Facebook app on Android, its terrible. Its not that I dont like android, like I say I have a Nexus 7 tablet and I use that for things that are not covered by Win Phone. But I wont be going back to Android on my phone any time soon, its such a mess. Anyway Im not one for forum arguements about what comes down to individual taste. Im thinking more about the overall picture for Nokia and an Android handset isnt it IMO.

  13. Stefing
    Coat

    Typo speaks truth

    https://i.chzbgr.com/maxW500/7373075712/h9A34E2D8/

  14. Aoyagi Aichou

    Android?

    What's with all the fascination with Android? I would very much prefer another Meego or Maemo Nokia than Android. And I would also prefer Symbian S60/Belle phone over WP8. On par with Android.

  15. marekt77

    Android would not have magically saved Nokia

    I know a lot of people really HATE Microsoft, but this idea that if only they picked Android all of their problems would magically disappear is nonsense! Before I go on, I think Nokia should have bought Palm, and taken up the WebOS mantel. It was a beautiful OS, with a lot of potential. Sadly this did not happen. Ok back to Android vs. Windows Phone. Sure there are a hard core IT folk that would love to have a Lumia 920 running on Android, but the rest of the world? Not so sure. Where I live in the US, the Android market is DOMINATED by Samsung. Galaxy and the Note rule the day here. Are they the only nice Android phones on the market? Of course not. Sure the new HTC One got rave reviews, but the excitement over it is nowhere near the levels of excitement about the new Galaxy. LG, they are almost an afterthought. Sure the Nexus 4 sold like gangbusters, but that was because of the very aggressive price that Google was selling the phone for. I know the device itself is very nice, my wife has one, but most customers probably have never really heard of it. Walk into any store here, and for the most part it is the Galaxy and iPhone that are the most advertised and on display. So if Nokia went Android they would have to compete with the likes of Samsung, LG, Motorola, Sony, HTC, etc... And what state is HTC in? Having been the first to market with and Android phone? They are losing money hand over fist, even though they make very nice Android devices. Is the Lumia 920 nicer than the HTC One? Maybe, maybe not, but what difference does it make if HTC cannot seem make money on Android?

    Now factor in the low end of the market, there are TONS of OEMS making cheap Android phones. Can Nokia compete with them in a race to the bottom? Will that make it profitable?

    Back to Microsoft, yes we all know how evil they are and what not, but I guarantee you they are NOT going to give up on mobile anytime soon if ever. It is too important of a market for them to walk away from. They have a huge war chest, and are in it for the long run. Will they ever dominate mobile? Probably not, and this is for the best, but they will eventually carve out enough market share to stay relevant. Microsoft is not as OEM, even though sometimes it tries to be, so it needs a top tier OEM to support their platform. Nokia needed a platform, and more importantly needed help building a platform. From a business sense it made total sense for them to partner up. Nokia got some cash from Microsoft, and Microsoft gains a top tier OEM. Nokia also gets help promoting the platform. So they do not have to do everything themselves. MS will not let mobile go, and as far as they are out there telling people about WP, as of right now this helps Nokia.

    If Nokia stayed with MeeGo, at the present count it would be the 5th major mobile OS on the market. iOS, Android, Blackberry 10, Windows Phone, MeeGo. Yeah I know, IT folks LOVED it because it ran Linux. Well sadly that is not enough. Neither WP nor Blackberry 10 are horrible OSes, but look how much trouble they are having attracting mobile developers to their platform? People who buy these things care not that it runs Linux, but they sure as hell care if it has Instagram, Foursquare, Pinterest, etc... With MeeGo Nokia would be the only one promoting the platform and they would be facing monumental challenges getting people to notice it. Just look at Blackberry, and least they have their corporate customers to fall back on. So no matter how awesome MeeGo was, how open, etc... Nokia would have to license it to others, would anyone jump on board? HTC and Samsung already make both Android and Windows Phones, what would MeeGo give them that those to platforms do not?

    Nokia was in trouble LONG before Windows Phone or Elop came along. If you want to blame anyone, blame the management board that got them into this mess in the first place. They were slow to react to the iPhone and Android and are now paying for it. There was a very good article about Nokia and their internal development environment around the time the iPhone came out. Multiple teams working on the exact same problem, but competing against each other, loss of focus, just seemed like a total mess. Had the cleaned this up right when the iPhone was announced and got their act together, maybe MeeGo would have been a player today, it defiantly had the potential, but sadly it was not to be. Now Elop could have picked up WebOS, but again, they would be going at it alone. Samsung, LG, Sony they have an advantage that they do not just make phones. Sure Nokia makes equipment, but is that enough to sustain the whole company while it tries to grow a platform against some of the wealthiest companies in the world? Probably not.

    One final point, I think what is hurting Nokia a bit in the US are these damn carrier exclusive phones. Right now if you want a 920, you can only get it on AT&T. WHY? It should be available on EVERY carrier, just like the Galaxy. You need the sales, so offer your phone to anyone and everyone that could potentially buy it!!!

    Whatever case maybe, Nokia would still not be magically awesome right now if it had only used Android. At the very least with WP they get to be the top OEM of a small percentage of the market, but one that will no doubt grow as time goes on.

    1. eulampios

      @marekt77

      Let me counter some of your tirades:

      Having been the first to market with and Android phone?...but what dfference does it make if HTC cannot seem make money on Android?

      HTC were one of the first, they did and do make nice devices, they managed to mess up with update/upgrades, agreed to pay MS $15 and other sums to Apple per a device for some alleged patents (they must be rich then).

      Anyhow, you seem to forget that HTC is also an MS partner to manufacture an WP phone, which some people had mentioned is even more advertised by MS themselves, over Nokia? So, ultimately, how does it save HTC? Samsung are not that interested in WP as HTC, which might be explaining partially their very different performance.

      HTC had originally had no Meego, nor had they ever had as much muscle and patent power as Nokia once had. How come it is good enough for Sumsung (Tizen), and so bad for Nokia?

      "Cherchez la femme", as the French say, more exactly here, Cherchez la taupe. This guy, S. Elop is a really crazy MS mole.

      1. marekt77

        Re: @marekt77

        Samsung updates do not have a good track record either, it took the original galaxy 6+ months to get Froyo out to everyone.

        Yes HTC makes Windows phones, they in fact originally made just Windows Phones, but as of late, they have focused almost exclusively on Android, they make many more Android phones than Windows phones, and all of their flagship devices have been Android phones. So yeah my point that Android in of itself would not save Nokia is valid, because it is not really saving HTC.

        Why is it ok for Samsung? Because they are a much, much larger company with multiple revenue streams, so they can afford to experiment with other platforms to see if something works. Nokia also has another platform, they sell a lot of phones from their Asha line that still runs Symbian.

        My point is simply this, Android would not magically fix all of Nokia's problems. Would they be in better position now had they made Android phones? Maybe, but it is not a given that Android would have fixed all of their problems.

        1. eulampios

          Re: @marekt77

          My point is simply this, Android would not magically fix all of Nokia's problems.

          I don't entirely disagree with that. But sure it could have been a game changer. My Math and statistical background both tell me that in the long run and on average, you lose if you do not diversify your risks. Wait a minute, everyone knows this rule. You only vary your portfolio along the optimum gradient. Gradients are applied to multivariate calculus. There is nothing to variate, only one "x" and this x is identically equal to MS Windows 8.

          Another fact is that, some time ago Nokia also was a big company, not anymore now.

          HTC.. as of late, they have focused almost exclusively on Android

          Same with anyone else! Isn't it enough of warning about Windows 8: "Caveat emptor!"

    2. Philip Lewis
      WTF?

      Re: Android would not have magically saved Nokia

      "Nokia was in trouble LONG before Windows Phone or Elop came along."

      No, they weren't actually , as any rational reading of their financials and market figures actually shows.

      Were NOKIA dysfunctional and less than perfect - hell yes (still are probably) - but in case you have never worked in a mega-corp, this statement is true of them all. What NOKIA were not, was in any sort of objective "trouble"

      What NOKIA were, was THE TARGET, and a lot of guns started aiming at them. NOKIA had a longer term plan which had the advantage that it did not leave its users in the lurch and provided an orderly controllable transition path for developers and phone users. Elop killed it and propagated the same myth that you just did. It is just as false now as when Elop gave it credence. The only difference is that when the CEO of a corp burns the entire corporation in writing, it has a knock on effect - in this case plummeting sales and burning of billions of dollars.

      Elop didn't have anything personally invested in NOKIA and the years invested in an orderly transition from Symbian to Meego/Maemo. He needed something that was unmistakingly his contribution. That's how big swinging dicks operate. It's about THEM, not the corp. that are charged and paid to manage. Killing everything is a no brainer for a big swinging dick. Getting into bed with MS is a no brainer for an ex MSoftie. Hiring MSofties to key positions is a no brainer for the big swinging dick as he cements his control over the executives. The fact that he owns a shit load of MS stock is a strong indicator that his decision making is clouded by personal interest, so betting NOKIA on the success of WP is also a no brainer.

      Finally, you would do well to read about Elop's "glorious" past. Having done so you might be tempted to think he is a Balmer sock puppet - I do.

  16. Wang N Staines

    Elop was a small fish that couldn't make it at MS and it was Nokia's fault for hiring such an idiot to run its operations.

  17. andy 45

    I do like the Lumia Range but...

    ...It seems as though Nokia have climbed down a few levels from their Symbian days.

    I still use a Symbian phone and was surprised to learn that the new Nokias lacked such great functions as and FM transmitter, USB on-the-go (so I can plug in a USB stick, or mouse & Keyboard).

    Maybe they plan to put these features on later models. Like Apple's favourite trick 'we can't give tem everything at once -- we'll make them buy a new phone for every extra little feature -- like 3G'

    A Lumia will still be my next phone -- I just like the Nokia build.

  18. Paradroid

    Why is the pace of change on WP so slow?

    The biggest problem for Nokia must be the slow pace of Windows Phone development.. Considering Microsoft is the new player, I expected them to be investing heavily and release continuous updates to enable new features. Instead they had to re-engineer the OS from CE to NT kernel, because they ended up in a technological dead end. While this was happening they should have had another team overhauling the front end. It needs things like multiple tile pages, a completely written music player with all the crappy panorama views stripped out, and numerous other small enhancements.

    I bought an early WP7 device, full of expectation that the OS would continually evolve with updates, but in reality very little has happened. WP7.5 fixed a lot of pain points in the OS, but WP8 is really just WP7.5 with a new kernel.

    Nokia must be doing their nut waiting for the OS to improve, especially as there is a lot of very clever thinking in Windows Phone, it just needs finishing off. It's clean and simple, but a little too clean and simple sometimes.

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