Microsoft Surface Pro will land in UK in WEEKS*
Microsoft struggled to fill retailers' shelves with the 128GB Surface Pro in North America but is rolling out both this and the little-loved 64GB version in Blighty later this month. In a statement last night, Redmond confirmed the Pro will start shipping to Australia, China, France Germany, Hong Kong, New Zealand and the UK …
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@AC 12:19
>all the directors, managers and other senior staff
ah yes. All the people who don't need a proper computer. I see your point.
Re: @AC 12:19
Strictly speaking - yes - they have previously managed with iPads so they can get away without proper computers, but one advantage of the Surface Pro is that it give you the best of both worlds.
For the AC above querying numbers, I am buying 30 as a pilot, and the number of users in scope is ~ 500.
"Surface Pro is the most powerful, the most secure and the most enterprise ready tablet that there is"
Easy there, that much Kool-Aid isn't good for you, dude!
I will be buying them for all the directors, managers and other senior staff globally in my company.
Is your industry PR? Is your major account Microsoft?
Why then didn't Microsoft give them to you?
A very expensive mobile computing solution
Has too much PC baggage and just doesn't quite work. I think I'll give this a pass, certainly at the price of a second mortgage. WP needs scaling up to tablet and not Server 2012 shoehorned into a tablet.
Re: A very expensive mobile computing solution
How do you know it "doesn't quite work" when it hasn't been released yet?
And why on earth do you think this is based on Server 2012... isn't it desktop W8? Actually since Pro is just x86, which edition of W8 is it anyway? And couldn't you set it to dual boot Linux+W8 or W7+W8 or whatever?
Re: A very expensive mobile computing solution
JDX, your talking rubbish about dual boot. There is barely enough SSD space left for one OS never mind two.
As regards my server comment, it was illustrating a point of do you really need full fat windows on an 11inch screen and for a vast majority of people I suspect the answer is no. I think MS need to re-align their OS strategy into Server, Workstation and Mobile (tablet, laptop and phone). WTF do I want Modern UI on a DT or Server for ?
Modern UI (i.e the runtime) really should be a virtualised option for server and DT.
Re: A very expensive mobile computing solution
If only you could use external storage with Surface Pro.
Of course some of us would find the 80Gb or so free space on the 128Gb version is fine for work and Linux. You possibly don't realise how much space 80Gb is... if you don't fill the thing up with video it's a lot. 20Gb used to be OK for a desktop and PDFs/doc files are not really bigger than they were back then.
You shouldn't be using a tablet to store all your stuff.
Re: A very expensive mobile computing solution
Shit expands to fill space.
Never have been a network admin have you ?
Re: A very expensive mobile computing solution
From experience with a 64GB SSD equiped penable after two years of use:
SSD for OS and programs has a bit over 20GB left - Win8, MS Office (Word, PP, Excel, OneNote), Eclipe IDE, GIMP, Kindle (and 100+ ebooks), LaTeX (and "IDE") and various small tools (Browsers, PDF reader etc)
The 64GB Class-10 SD card in the slot is at 20GB as well holding Dokuments (including multiple 100+ page PDFs), Sourcecode and other user data
Granted, I do not use this unit to watch videos so those "space eaters" are not on there. Never saw a reason for that (TV can do it from the NAS) but for most business needs a 128GB unit should be more than enough.
Next planned penable will get 256 or 512GB SSD but that is because it will replace the whole zoo (Desktop, Tablet, Smartphone) and needs more storage than a "demo/doku" maschine.
Re: A very expensive mobile computing solution
You CAN use external storage with Surface Pro - it has a proper USB3 slot - and it has a Micro SXDC slot that can take a 64GB card.
You can also remove the recovery partition if you want to, (and recover from bootable USB if ever required) - gaining circa 10GB of additional disk space.
Re: A very expensive mobile computing solution
"You possibly don't realise how much space 80Gb is..."
I've worked with computers that have winchester hard drives. 10MB of double-height 5.25" fun with a worm gear powering the read/write head and separate ribbon cables for address and data. 10MB is an enormous amount if the only thing you work with is early 1980s software and text files.
And 80GB is a tiny amount if you are working with modern software and images.
Re: A very expensive mobile computing solution
>>And 80GB is a tiny amount if you are working with modern software and images.
Then it's odd the W7 PC I use 8+ hours a day for my job as a software developer as well as for miscellaneous home PC user stuff is only up to 120Gb after 4 whole years, including all the old git/svn working copies lying around, my personal music collection, and all the crud copied from my last desktop "in case I might need it".
I repeat, you should not be storing everything on your surface in the first place, therefore 80Gb is loads of space... considering most tablets are 16/32Gb it should be pretty blindingly obvious that even 50Gb of free space is plenty, and therefore the couple of GB you lose for a Linux install is hardly a problem... surely your Linux/Win partitions can share files or you could even install Linux on a bootable SD or something along those lines.
Re: A very expensive mobile computing solution
And I have a terabyte on this machine that's getting dangerously full after two years. Your point is what?
I also have laptops, and I'm constantly fighting with the Available Space issue. But then, I do think it appropriate that a hard drive is a good place to put, oh I don't know.. films, music, all that kind of stuff that you might want to use a media consumption device like the Surface for.
80GB? It might last me a few weeks. 80Gb? Probably a few minutes. I know plenty of less-technical people who also bought cheap computers with small (funnily enough, around the 120GB mark) drives, and they are also fighting for free space because these are people that actually use their computers for stuff. They don't just sit in the corner looking pretty and occasionally get switched on to edit a text file.
Now you as a software developer can probably make do on 80GB. It's not like a bunch of C++ source code for a project really takes up all that much space. However, saying "it's not meant for that" when Microsoft are trying to tell us all that the Surface is "everything at once" is disingenious at best.
The Surface Pro is sold as a premium product. Priced as a premium product.
And specced like a toy.
@M Gale
It's not like a bunch of C++ source code for a project really takes up all that much space
Wow, that's remarkably ignorant, check out the size of the boost library and platform SDKs. Consider what happens to .cpp files - they get compiled into object files which take up a lot of space. How about the different flavours of Visual Studio and all the supporting tools (SQL Server, VMs).
80GB? It might last me a few weeks. 80Gb? Probably a few minutes.
Unless you're recording media, video at that, how do you (permanently) use up 80GB in a few minutes?
people that actually use their computers for stuff. They don't just sit in the corner looking pretty and occasionally get switched on to edit a text file.
Yeah, cause that's *exactly* the work process of a software developer...
M Gale = Eadon?
Re: A very expensive mobile computing solution
Actually the S/P is equipped like most Notebooks/Ultrabooks that come with an SSD. If you want more than a 128GB SSD there are not that many choiced left. You either go "spinning metal"(1) or you go well above 1000€ even for a notebook and there are few COTS units available.
If you do massiv video editing etc. OR carry tons of movies around than you might end up with a filled drive quickly. For the former this is not the "right stuff" nor are most notebooks. This is the domain of the 17'' "luggable" with a battery that is more UPS and less "mobile work" or maybe of the 2500€ "mobile workstations" from Fujitsu. A 10'' screen is a tad small for that (even 12-13'' is small IMHO)
Given that playing (illegaly) downloaded movies is a typical job of many home PCs and NAS these days it is to be expected that "Frank Freeloader" ends up with a filled HD quickly. The same problem will arise with the typical iThingy as well. Most found a solutiion - they do not carry all their stuff all the time.
(1) Something I happily left behind on mobile devices
Re: @M Gale
Wow, that's remarkably ignorant, check out the size of the boost library and platform SDKs
1.59GB for v1.51.0 of a framework that contains so many millions of lines of code that it makes your average Linux kernel look tiny. If you're stupid enough to link to every single library, then no wonder your code is bloated. I'm using Boost right now. What's your point? Asides to prove that 80GB really isn't enough?
Unless you're recording media, video at that, how do you (permanently) use up 80GB in a few minutes?
GB != Gb. I could fill up 10GB (or 80Gb) in a few minutes while copying 5-10 films over. Or maybe 2 films, Boost, a couple of other frameworks (hello, 961 megabytes of Ogre) and a compiler. Let's say Code::Blocks, because the full MSVC is just a weeny bit on the huge side and #pragma once can kiss my bell end.
Even with 80GB free, that's a big chunk of space gone and I'm only just started.
Yeah, cause that's *exactly* the work process of a software developer...
You make it seem like that.
M Gale = Eadon?
I disagree with you, therefore I'm Eadon.
On top of being a shill for Google, that's the best accusation yet.
Re: A very expensive mobile computing solution
Actually the S/P is equipped like most Notebooks/Ultrabooks that come with an SSD. If you want more than a 128GB SSD there are not that many choiced left. You either go "spinning metal"(1) or you go well above 1000€ even for a notebook and there are few COTS units available.
Question is, do you really need SSD? Wouldn't a flash cache + spinning metal give you a load of the advantages and some actual storage space? Not that any buyers will have the option of finding out.
Re: A very expensive mobile computing solution
Fujitsu T 902 offers such an option. While l would take the T902 it would not be that version. SSD on mobile devices is less about speed [That is a nice extra] and more about rugged storage for me. Even more so in a tablet or convertible that gets shifted around and handled like a legal pad a lot. HDD defects where relatively common in the old days of penables
SSD on a desktop is a " if someone else pays it" equipment lMHO. A fast HDD and a fast network and NAS /SAN would be my choice if l could have 2 of 3 (otherwise I'd choose 7 of 9 or maybe a three))
Re: A very expensive mobile computing solution
(otherwise I'd choose 7 of 9 or maybe a three)
Oh, I think anybody would choose 7 of 9. At least, any hetero male and perhaps a few scissor sisters too.
Price
Comparing it to a tablet it looks extortionate. No doubt some will be suggesting it should be £300. But it's not a tablet, it's a mid-range laptop squashed into a tablet casing. From the hardware side I think it's a marvel of modern technology to be honest.
But do you need a full PC in a tablet? If you do, this might be your wet dream. Otherwise just get an iPad :)
Re: Price
Only the stupid equal Tablet with "iPad/Android Touch Thingy". Those with a brain know there are different breeds and choose what they NEED no matter who builds it or what OS it runs. If you need a toy breed media consume tablet - get an iPad if you want updates or a Samsung if not. If you need a working breed penable look at the job and get something Atom-based from Dell/Lenovo or core i based from Sony/MS/Lenovo/Fujitsu
Performance-wise the S/P is a high end ultrabook with a good screen resolution and a sturdy build. I would prefer a 12 or 13 inch screen but I am spoiled by having used those for years. Notebooks are cheaper but offer less options since they are only notebooks while this unit is both. Convertibles are more compact but force you to take the keyboard and weight with you. So "dockable" penables are a nice compromise for those who need/use/like both
Granted, GNUliban and other FOSS-Fanatics can not use them since Penguins won't be able to use most of the components (Digitizer, WIDI/Miracast, Enhanced Power Saving/Hybernate ect) so the rant against this units. But hey - who cares about neckbearded fanatics.
Re: Price
@mmeier - it's easy for guys like you to dismiss geeks as just "neckbearded fanatics" and penguins. But alienate this market sector at your peril. Microsoft alienated geeks, by threatening Linux with lawsuits and so on, and now suing Android manufacturers and extorting patent taxes from them.
The problem with alienating geeks is that geeks are unbelievably powerful. They decide, ultimately, what ends up in Datacentres and in people's pockets. Linux is killing Windows in the server market? Why? It's not because execs are demanding Linux, they don't know what it is. It's because the geeks are telling execs that if they use Windows on servers, then the TCO will be higher, and the solution will likely fail. (Which is an accurate engineering assessment - and who makes those assessments? Geeks).
Look at mobiles. Android was, and is, the geekiest serious mobile OS ever. It's the most open, it has a Linux kernel. Geeks loved it at first sight. And it took a only three generations of Android for it to have killed Symbian (no, sorry, Android didn't kill Symbian, MS/Elop did), smashed Blackberry, slaughtered WinCE / WinPho and it even caused the Jesus Phone to stumble.
That is very much because the Neckbeards, the geeks, created buzz online and told all their mates how good Android is.
Now a geek / neckbeard wouldn't be seen DEAD with a Windows Phone or a Surface or a Zune. And guess what? RIP Zune. Windows Pho has been, considering how many billions have been ploughed into selling it, an utter catastrophe, and the Surface has bombed.
Those Microsoft products are considered by the people to be a JOKE. And who told them that these products are a joke? The media? No - the media are gushing about MS products - they need the advertising dollars.
The neckbeards, the geeks told everybody that the Microsoft products are a joke (which happens to be true) and now those products have failed in the marketplace. The products would have failed anyway, but people would have bought a few first, before getting burned.
Re: Price
Cute but fail E2. No better than the original.
The people deciding what ends up in IT departments and server rooms are MBAs. They may or may not listen to Engineers and/or trained craftsman. And those in turn more often than not decide on capabilities and not on fanatism. In a quarter century in the job I have seen quite a few customer IT departments. Banks, Various industries, Huge travel agencies as well as smaller (10-100) companies. With the exception of the occasional "run by the PFY son of the bosses sister" shop they ALL employed a mix of systems depending on "what works best". UNIX for database/appservers, Windows for clients and specialist systems for Firewalls, LoadBalancers, Windows for Login and internal Portals and maybe some Macs for DTP etc. Phones where choosen by "do they integrate with the structure" and often BBs. iPhones and Androids are mostly BYOD devices.
It was only the PFY run shops that insisted on "Linux only". And they often failed with the approach since certain bookkeeping/tax/inventory software did NOT run (requiring WINE and long config runs if you are lucky and Windows units if not). Or PFY believed the "Linux is secure" mantra and ended up with a hacked server (if he was lucky / semi-smart is was only the Webserver in a DMZ and not THE server)
The same goes for software. If some of your software needs ORACLE/MS-SQL/DB2 anyway smart IT departments will try to get ALL the software to use that DB. If all your software can do with mySQL - they will go with that
Oh and NO IT department ever thought about Zunes or iPods
Final note: In the last two companies we developers and admins where free to choose or OS (Linux, Solaris/x86, Windows) and in both cases we debated and decided on Windows. OS for development maschines is a "background element" and Windows is easier there for us to use and the admins to administer (1) Admins that cater / catered for double digit numbers of UNIX boxes and had certifications as well as experience for Solaris (or Linux) and Windows both.
(1) Smart Companies do NOT use central repositories or direct Windows updates so the "Linux repos" do not matter.
Re: Price
Those corporate execs only bought iPads because Microsoft didn't have anything in that space. Given the choice of a high end device that runs a proper version of Windows and Office, and can be fully managed in the enterprise rather than a content consuming tablet with a toy OS, the choice for corporate use will be overwhelmingly for the Windows based tablet solutions. Surface might seem like it has a high price ticket, but when you consider that it has a full OS, and is aimed at the corporate market it isn't really. And anyway, Microsoft are trying to set an example for their OEMs to follow rather than become the mass market leader and alienate all other manufacturers. Therefore this is not about low cost or volume sales.
nb - the 'New' MS tablets don't need a keyboard t o use them. Clearly as usual you don't have a clue....
Re: Price
"Eadon2" lol - this is one of your shill voting accounts? I always wondered how some of your posts ever got upvoted at all....
Re: Price
TheVogon I'm not that sad, ask the Reg admins if I ever upvote myself. The account was from one time I couldn't log in. Funny how you should say that, though, considering you're same guy as RICHTO. Now we know your tricks :)
Re: Price
@TheVogon
Lightbulb moment for me.
Makes me wonder if we need these up/down vote buttons at all if certain people are that social inept to want to have a fake el reg rep.....
Re: Price
nb - the 'New' MS tablets don't need a keyboard t o use them. Clearly as usual you don't have a clue....
Surface may not require a keyboard but Windows (legacy) software has been designed to work best with keyboard and mouse. For example: many legacy programs require pixel level mouse clicks; input in dialog boxes has not been optimised to keep itself away from an on-screen keyboard.
The Metro apps may be OK, but there are few of those and the whole point of Pro is to run legacy.
Re: Price
That's why the S/P comes with a WACOM pen. And all other useable tablet-pc/convertibles(1) also come with inductive pens (Wacom or NTrig). That gives you the precision you need for "older" software. Works like a charm. Since pen input and handwriting recognition work extremly well in Win7 and even better in Win8 you do not need a on screen smearboard<<<keyboard either.
(1) Yes, I do consider Acer W510/700, Lenovo Yoga etc. unusable. A non-penable tablet can be replaced by a 100€ Chinaplastic or for those who need a ego-crutch by a 600€ Chinaplastic with some fruit
Re: Price
@Eadon and Eadon2 - So after all your banging on about posting under your own name and not AC, dismissing comments people make about "you could be posting under multiple accounts" you are now actually admitting to posting under multiple accounts?
Do you save Eadon2 for when the moderators have put you on the naughty step?
Re: Price
@AC 14:53 - for some reason eadon2 appeared in the log-in form on a computer I use. The reason that account exists is that I think one of the reg sites - Reg Hardware? was incompatible with my normal eadon login so I created an eadon2 account at the time. If I wanted to be anon, why call the account "eadon2". Think about it.
There's nothing sinister about it, it's called eadon2 - everyone can see that it's me. Why would I do that if I was doing something sneaky, why would I hold myself up to automatic suspicion by clueless AC's?
And if *anyone* thinks that I am abusing the eadon2 account ASK THE REGISTER ADMINS to investigate me.
Re: Price
[Broadcast Eclear, sent 1362373633.4]
xGSV Slightly Perturbed
oBOFH Reg Readers
Eadon is not the only person here with multiple accounts. In fact, occasionally I post here whilst pretending to be a human. None of you have caught on yet, either.
Turing? Pft.
∞
Re: Price
But do you need a full PC in a tablet?
Well that might be nice, but you just told me that it's not a full PC in a tablet.
Re: Price
"for some reason" - Yes I think we can all guess what that is.
As if you don't get enough RSI from using Linux, you are overdoing it on the voting buttons too....
Current tablets
This is getting ridiculous. My wife is keen to replace her Samsung NC10 netbook (10.1", 1200X600) with something that doesn't cost a grand but still gives her more than a 2" rectangle to type an email in. And it needs MS Office because she needs Outlook (proper desktop Outlook, not some portal). Ultrabooks are twice the price of netbooks and all seem to use those calculator keyboards.
Tablet & keyboard, then....simple,no?
The current Win tablets themselves are a mixed bag, but the ergonomic situation is appalling for anything other than simple messaging if you're not going to hold the screen in your hands and smear you fingers all over it. The range of BT keyboards seems OK but I would imagine most of them would bounce around on your lap cos they're so light. Even the 'docking' solutions are generally less than ideal.
Instead of lugging a laptop & PSU, we are now looking at a tablet, some form of BT keyboard and some form of computer stand. And either a touchpad or a mouse. How are you supposed to set that lot up on a train?
These are basic computing needs for business correspondence on the move. Is there some definition of 'progress' that I am unaware of? I fail to see how the Clamshell design is now regarded as obsolete. The only compromises we endured with the netbook were a puny screen and it was a bit gutless.
Re: Current tablets
Laptop still required for proper work shocker.
Re: Current tablets
Ex-lease ThinkPad X201 should fit the bill - 12", real computer, can get 'em for under £300 with Windows 7 and a couple of months left on the warranty. Now that's progress!
Re: Current tablets
Take a look at the Atom based penables. Windows 7 and 8 come with very good handwriting recognition and the WACOM / NTRIG pens are extremly precise (better than a mouse). The units have a slightly better screen resolution than your wifes old Samsung, good endurance and all offer 3G/UMTS variants as well as WLAN only.
For the Samsung Ativ500 forget the "dock" that is of little use (basically a BT keyboard). For the ThinkpadTablet2 and Dell Latitude 10 there are "Folios" that offer a clamshell type feeling with an "integrated" (actually BT) keyboard.
Depending on how much "writing on the move" is needed those should work fine.
Re: Current tablets
I think as someone else suggested, you can pick up an HP EliteBook for around the same price.
These are very good business-centric laptops, I happen to have one issued to me by work.
Way heavier than a tablet though, and does require a chunky PSU.
Alternatively, you could go for the Lenovo Tablet 2, which runs proper Windows 8. I had the first version of the tablet, running Android 4. It comes with a keyboard folio case with optical mouse. The whole setup works very well. going for the v2 version would mean Windows and Outlook.
There is an astonishing amount of variation in these devices, when you start to look at them.
The Surface Pro is coming
All 1000 of them; so that Microsoft can start another story about "extremely high demands", or are they going to do it properly this time?
Like a hovercraft at a bar mitzvah
I'm in the mobile space, and have the oddly detached experience of working with Microsoft from time to time. I like Windows Phone 7.5, clean and simple, which suits me - lack of apps aren't really an issue as the useful ones are present. I detest Windows as a desktop OS though.
Nonetheless, one of my customers (a merchant bank) expressed an interest in Surface in both forms last week. I duly trotted made contact with Planet Thames Valley Park, and asked to speak with their leader. Initially communication was difficult, as working for a UK firm I lack the necessary vocabulary for subtlety on that planet. I resorted to loudly saying 'synergies' a lot, which seemed to do the trick.
"My customer is interested in Surface. Can we go in and demo an RT?"
(sucking of teeth) "Hmm, not really, we don't really do demos on Surface"
"Riiiight. Howabout we come to Reading and try that?"
"Well, we can, but we can't leave you alone with one."
"Okay, before I tell them just to buy an iPad, what support can you give me? Howabout something on the Pro?"
"We can come and give them a presentation on Windows 8 and Office365!"
Following this impressive display of point-missing, I cast around in my business to check it wasn't just me... sure enough, my peers have experienced similar ineptitude.
Seems all those years of default OS have really pushed the Redmond cranium-rectum synergies to new heights.
It's the charge of the Light Brigade all over again only this time at Redmond...
Nobody dare question ridiculous orders coming from above.
Re: It's the charge of the Light Brigade all over again only this time at Redmond...
Well, the light Brigade DID take the redoubt. And their allies did make use of the charge to clear some hills.
So this may very well hurt the Russians. Not to mention that this time the Heavy Brigade (Oracle with a Solaris/x86 under Apache licence?) may join the fight.
Hmm, Linux users as Zaristic Russians - fits. Beard, backward culture, autocratic Monarch...
Dell have beaten them to it
Why is anyone going to wait to spend £1k on a Surface when you can get a Dell Latitude 10 right now for £400-£450..?
Had a 'pro' one delivered yesterday for testing - not sure about the aspect ratio which seems a little elongated when used in portrait but overall seems ok. I think this is the future for most enterprises instead of laptops, particularly when linked to Server 2012 RemoteApps.
Re: Dell have beaten them to it
Surface Pro has:
A proper I5 CPU, not an Atom like the Latitude.
Twice the RAM and twice the disk space.
A larger and full HD screen, with multitouch and stylus input
An injection moulded magnesium chassis
Optional state of the art mag lock keyboard.
A larger battery
Re: Dell have beaten them to it
Depending on what you need the Dell or Lenovo Atom based tablets may be the way to go. Sturdy or soon to be sturdy (Lenovo has some QA problems) little penables with 8+h endurance and (for a price) 3G/UMTS included. But there are things the Atom units can not do and if you need more performance, have more than one major application open or need the higher resolution than a core i unit is a must. And there the S/P is one of the choices.
Besides: 450 GBP for a fully equiped Dell Latitude (4cell battery, Penable version, not the touch only one) sounds very low. That is 520€ and the Dell Website wants more for the touch-only toy. A fully decked out unit ends up 700-850€ (without/with UMTS) before VAT, the TPT2 is priced similar.
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