back to article Council IT bod in the dock for flogging scrap work PC parts

A council IT worker who flogged his employers' scrap kit on eBay for £10,000 has been ordered to do 150 hours of unpaid work by a court. Ian Holwell, 52, grabbed PCs and laptops due to be disposed by Derbyshire County Council and stripped out their parts to sell online. But he was rumbled and sacked after a whistleblower …

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    1. Vic

      > He hasn't "permanently deprived" them of anything they were interested in keeping

      Yes he has. He removed the high-value resaleable parts. Had those parts made it to the recycler, the Council in question would have received part of the sale price for them.

      > he was basically taking rubbish out of a bin.

      No. He was taking parts from a pile marked "for disposal". "Disposal" does not mean land-fill...

      > If he'd waited until the kit was abandoned in a skip to be taken away and then come back later in an

      > unofficial capacity to take it, is that still a problem?

      Potentially, yes.

      Throwing something in a skip does *not* mean you have relinquished ownership of it. Taking anything out of someone's rubbish without prior consent is still theft. Note, however, that such consent is generally very easy to obtain if you actually ask...

      > And why couldn't he have got permission?

      Why indeed?

      > The council obviously disposed of it, no matter what value was in it

      Yes, but "disposed of" does not mean "gave away"...

      > Why can't you just say "It's in the bin, I consider it rubbish and I will concede all rights to it

      You can. The Council did not.

      > It seems there's just too much riding on saying that what he did was wrong

      Not at all. what he did was Theft. There is no question.

      The annoyance is that he could probably have done something very similar to what he did, but perfectly legitimately. But he didn't.

      Vic.

  1. JimmyPage Silver badge
    Boffin

    Wee legal note

    (IANAL).

    English & Welsh (I have been told off for saying "UK" thanks to the Scots) law has repeatedly held that *unauthorised* removal of items from a bin is theft.

    You know that old saying about "possession being 9 points of the law" ? It really means that laws surrounding property are very well established. The bottom line in England and Wales is that *everything* belongs to *someone*.

    You put rubbish in your bin - it's yours until the authorised collection happens. And case law has held that if it's a municipal bin, the authorised collector is the local council. Not the Wombles.

    There are quite a few people with criminal records that didn't grasp this crucial fact.

    1. hplasm
      Big Brother

      Re: Wee legal note

      And if you don't fill your bin, but recycle it yourself- prepare for a fine- as it 'belongs' to the council to flog off, suddenly.

      (There is a case of a 'green' farmer who fell foul of this but it's Friday so can't be arsed to find a link...)

  2. K
    Mushroom

    it would only throw away kit that couldn't be reused or sold without cost

    Well he managed to sell it! So why can't the council?

    This is just typical of public services in general, I've have several friends who supply the public sector with Tech equipment and they amaze me with the stories of wastage (though they obvious love it!)... but such behavior would just not be tolerated in a private company!

    1. El Presidente

      Re: it would only throw away kit that couldn't be reused or sold without cost

      See also the room I saw in a council storage depot: Full to the ceiling of projectors and other high end IT kit which was bought for a project, installed, then the department was closed down 5 months later because the building was to be sold. The whole lot was then ripped from the building to a place of storage where it was still sat 2 years later.

    2. Cameron Colley

      Re: it would only throw away kit that couldn't be reused or sold without cost

      I've news for you. Private companies can, and do, simply throw away kit that nobody will buy from them for "re-purposing". As I asked in a previous post, please could someone with experience of selling kit "as is" and without warranty on behalf of a large organisation please explain how it is done so that others may learn.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Selling in the course of a business

        If you sell something in the course of a business then the Sale of Goods Act 1979 applies to it. The goods must be as described; of satisfactory quality; fit for purpose and last a reasonable length of time.

        This is why it is generally not worth the time and money investment to sell low-value second-hand equipment.

        It's a shame if things get wasted but we do need consumer protection laws. And it creates an opportunity for recycling businesses such as whose services appear to be retained by the council in question.

        1. K

          Re: Selling in the course of a business

          You sell the equipment AS-IS, with minimal guarantees etc... WTF do you think makes eBay tick! This has nothing to do with legality, the problem is 90% caused by the bureaucratic nightmare in public services. Additionally I imagine it also caused by some people wanting to hide wastage (what better way than to bury it for 2 years and then just dump it).

          1. Cameron Colley

            Re: Selling in the course of a business

            "You sell the equipment AS-IS, with minimal guarantees etc..."

            Do you have legal advice to back this up? The last legal advice I heard on the subject was that selling kit dirrectly is a no-no because of the warranties and other red tape required. Last I heard selling B2B is find but there are things they will not buy, as seems to be the case here.

            That means the kit was worthless -- the fact that a private individual could sell it on eBay warranty-free is absolutely immaterial. To the council the kit was actually a debt they needed to clear.

            I asked what I did because I think, frankly, that some people posting here have no idea what they're talking about and was hoping that somebody could elucidate rather than keep repeating that they ought to sell the kit.

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: we do need consumer protection laws

          Council sells to recycling contractor and there's no "consumer" involved - this is a business-to-business transaction and a lot less encumbering.

          1. K

            Re: we do need consumer protection laws

            As was pointed out earlier, councils "retain" items for X length of time, so they often get dumped in storage for 2 years. After which they are only suitable for scrap. Sell them why they still retain value and use. I don't care if its B2B or B2C sales, I just would like to see this dealt with with the Tax payers interests in mind, rather than the public servants and services (which yes, do occasionally differ, especially where money is concerned!)..

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              @ K

              You are misled, my friend.

    3. Lars Silver badge
      Happy

      Re: it would only throw away kit that couldn't be reused or sold without cost

      Some of the companies I worked for let us bye our old hardware cheep. From a security perspective it was perhaps a bit odd as hard disks went out the door without any concern. I put Linux on my hardware and felt honest. However It always annoyed me how perfectly fine ethernet cards and often memory was scrapped for no good reason.

      My point, however, is about software licenses. I have a feeling that when a company starts to pay for a license they never stop as nobody ever seems to have any responsibility for that part. (licenses in the landfill)

      I could imagine it may be still harder in the public sector.

      "but such behavior would just not be tolerated in a private company!". It would make me happy if that was true but I am afraid you are an optimist.

  3. Christopher Rogers

    He essentially stole the goods for personal gain. He should have approached the council and discussed taking the gear off their hands. It was still theirs to scrap.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      paperwork

      who would issue the destruction/disposal cert? only an authorised reseller can do this.

  4. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Ummm

    If it costs that much for disposal, I am sure there are enough scrap metal guys with a car crusher that could do this (*supervised) for 1/10th of the price.

    Just a thought!

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Good luck

      fetching a decent price for a hard drive on eBay after it's been crushed...

  5. mark 63 Silver badge
    Flame

    “if the employer says ‘put it in landfill and leave it to rot’, it is for them to decide. It is not for you to harvest the parts,

    WRONG

    It is your moral duty for the sake of the planet to extend the life of those parts and slow down the rapid depletement of the worlds precious metals and other resources.

    This really pisses me off. Especially the amount of kit I've seen my employers pay to have destroyed.

    If "Landfill" is really what derbyshire county asked for they should be prosecuted under environmental legislation

    1. Dodgy Geezer Silver badge
      Flame

      Oh dear....

      ...It is your moral duty for the sake of the planet to extend the life of those parts and slow down the rapid depletement of the worlds precious metals and other resources...

      I've not come across the word 'depletement' before. Everyone I know calls it 'depletion'.

      Unfortunately, I have come across many people telling me that my 'moral duty' should be to obey their half-baked ideas without question. The way I see it, Gaia has been ravaged for her precious metals, which have been illegally ripped from her womb, and we ought to return them all to below ground as soon as possible.

      Preferably together with all the environmentalists...

      1. mark 63 Silver badge
        Thumb Up

        Re: Oh dear....

        'depletement' , yeah its new one i'm trying to bring in.

        "illegally ripped from her womb"

        you come across as quite the environmentalist yourself!

        "return them all to below ground as soon as possible."

        agreed! just sayin we should hang on to the minerals we already ripped out to avoid having to do it again , or do less of it ( the ravaging)

        still, the human race it but a minor irritation when you look at the lifespan of the planet, it'll all be over soon and the scars will quickly heal. geologically speaking

  6. Dodgy Geezer Silver badge
    Flame

    The difference between UK and European Law...

    ... is that, under UK law, anything not specifically forbidden was deemed to be allowed.

    Under the Codex Napoleon, the base principle was that you were not allowed to do anything unless properly authorised.

    We USED to operate strictly to UK law, but we are now moving towards the European approach as we slowly merge our legal systems. So nowadays, ask for authorisation before doing anything.

    You know it makes sense!

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: The difference between UK and European Law...

      theft is a long established law. WEEE has been effective as law since 2007.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: The difference between UK and European Law...

      I think you are slightly romantic.

    3. Terry Barnes

      Re: The difference between UK and European Law...

      You're out of date by several hundred years. All EU states are liberal democracies, meaning that which is not prohibited is permitted. Regardless, theft means the same in all countries. You can't take things that don't belong to you.

  7. Nick Mallard

    Perhaps it was just 5 old Crapple Macs sold to some silly sheeple? :D

  8. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Crazy

    I recently left the employment of a Local Authority where equipment that was 'past its life' was stored in a warehouse until there was so much of it you couldn't fit anything else in! It was never considered for donation unless a friend of the Leader or Chief exec asked...

    Once it was full, a recycling company was called to take it all away, they charged on average £15 per PC and Monitor... They wouldn't take it for free... It was then refurbished and sold on with nothing being passed back to the Council... I didn't agree with the process and asked many times if I could make a donation to the Mayors charity for some of the kit, but it was never allowed!

    I 'know' this type of stuff goes on all over the place... perhaps it's time for the LGA (Local Government Association) to come up with some guidelines that would allow the Council's to either refurbish the kit themselves, or offload it onto another company who could for a small fee per item! One way for them to raise a few £ in these hard times of redundancies etc... A few £ of old computer kit might save a job!

    1. mark 63 Silver badge
      Facepalm

      Re: Crazy

      the worst thing is, given the "obsoletion" rate (a word i just made up) any remotely useful kit will be stored until the space is full before paying to have it removed, meanwhile its gone from old-but-useable to obsolete dead weight

  9. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    minor details

    As someone who has been involved in recycling tech kit and office refurb leftovers for a London council, the only undertaking I had to sign was a declaration that I would not be making a profit from their disposal. I achieved this by giving working flat panel monitors to silver surfer projects, and all the furniture, redundant network printers, and flooring etc to charitable tech start up organisations. What I never wanted was the underpowered computer kit with legacy CPUs, piddling hard drives, outdated wonky ram, and mobos that still supported ISA cards. The grief associated with meeting EU standards for disposal of that junk is best left to professionals, who will actually charge for the service. Landfill is not an option for anything except cases, cables, and racks, which tend to go for scrap anyway if they have any salvageable metal in them.

    If a council is shipping out pcs with removable parts worth an easy 10k second hand, I'd be concerned that they hadn't done their depreciation sums too smartly. Do IT departments not have anyone qualified to operate a Phillips screwdriver in this whizzbang modern age of technical miracles?

    1. Fatman

      Re: Do IT departments not have anyone qualified to operate a Phillips screwdriver?

      Do you really expect bureaucrats to have any common sense? I don't!

      After all, they are the ones that come up with all kinds of bullshit the average schmoe must jump through.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Do IT departments not have anyone qualified to operate a Phillips screwdriver?

        There is so much fear, Fatman, that it is just safer not to put ones head in harms way.

    2. Terry Barnes

      Re: minor details

      You'd be taking the guy with the screwdriver away from other work. How much would you have to pay him (bearing in mind employing someone costs twice what you pay them) to realise that £10K?

  10. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    I work in the public sector, and we have a very good Sustainability Policy. Not only do we not use polystyrene cups, but staff may take old furniture, folders etc.. for free if they would otherwise be binned, for electrical appliances such as 5+year old computers they just have to sign a disclaimer about their takers' responsibilty for having them tested for safety and no responsibilty for employer, and must be disposed of as per WEEE regs by the taker, sold as scrap etc...

  11. K

    "Do you have legal advice to back this up? "

    Cameron, yes, its perfectly legal to sell as long as the a) the item is exactly as described b) after-sales policy is clearly explained, understood and agreed to buy the purchaser.

    But you are completely missing the point - this has nothing to do with B2B or B2C, its about equipment being brought, not utilised and then left to rot in storage for X years. Where if an item is functioning, it should be sold on, this would reduce waste and also recoup some of the original cost. Hence a massive benefit to tax payers.

    1. Vic

      > Where if an item is functioning, it should be sold on, this would reduce waste and also

      > recoup some of the original cost.

      Not necessarily...

      Although there might be a residual value in any unwanted item, paying someone to find a buyer for it might well cost far more than could be realised by the sale. That's a net loss to taxpayers :-(

      I think it is negligent of a coucil not to have a policy by which its employees can recycle unused equipment, but that's a world away from mandating that said council is obliged to recycle *everything*...

      Vic.

  12. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Councils eliminating waste?!?

    Yeah, we've heard of that.

    Jobsworths.

  13. Corinne

    Work out the costs.....

    The article quotes £10k over a 2 year period, so around £5k a year made from selling the parts. What it doesn't say is how much time the guy spent in removing the parts, doing any remedial work needed then marketing them. To pay for someone to spend the time needed to do this is very likely to cost more than the income, especially considering the various points above regarding the legal responsibilities of selling this kit (likely ignored by the former employee).

    What seems to be a good saving of money if you do it yourself at no cost in your spare time suddenly gets somewhat expensive if you need to pay someone else to do it for you - think of things like decorating your house or doing the gardening.

  14. mark l 2 Silver badge

    The guy could actually have been done by the enviroment agency as once old electronic equipment has been classed as waste only someone with an appropriate waste carriers license can transport it to a designated site where it can be refurbished or recycled. A T11 exemption is required from the enviroment agency to do this and it cost about £800 and lasts for 3 years.

  15. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Where's El Reg's Rag and Bone Man?

    I wonder if Tinker Tim can explain some of the intricacies of e-waste managment contracts, the relative value of different components and what he'd do liberally to an employee he found selling off hard drives.

  16. Marking Time

    I was cheaper for our Council to pay AU$12,000 to have 350 of our old desktop machines and Monitors taken away and crushed than to try and sell them.

  17. ukgnome
    Facepalm

    HDD and memory

    Well when I send for the WEEE man these are the parts I keep. They then get sent to the shredder, at least that way I don't have a data leak of any kind.

    What this guy did was so dumb, on occasions like this it's best to know a waste recycler and go legitimate if you can.

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