back to article Oh, Sony, you big tease: Mystery PlayStation reveal date set

Sony has called on hacks and analysts to come to New York next month for an event focused on the PlayStation - an invite that's left pundits and fans predicting the unveiling of the long-awaited PlayStation 4. Naturally, Sony isn’t saying, confirming only that the electronics giant will be discussing its PlayStation business. …

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Prediction

Yes, yes, it's obviously a conspiracy, rather than an old console being somewhat lacking in grunt. That obviously involves fewer wild assumptions and keeps the tinfoil budget down. Muppet.

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Mushroom

Re: Prediction

The actual reason that most games on both platforms are better / faster / higher resolution on the Xbox is that the Xbox has a) a more powerful GPU than the PS3, b) a faster EDRAM frame buffer, and c) a hardware scaler.

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FAIL

Re: Prediction

Dont be daft.

I have copies of Call of Duty x and Modern Warfare x for both platforms (I have 360 friends and PS3 friends).

The games are identical on my TV.

I think a lot of people dont get that the majority of studios who produce cross platform games dont bother making a PS3 or 360 specific version. Take Capcom for instance, they create one version of a game and then port it over to either console.

When it comes to predictions, there have been quite a lot of articles on Kotaku with regards to the physical media that could be used on the PS4. I think initially, there was to be none, but thankfully Sony relented.

Even though the console will be pretty pricey, removing the ability to play games from a disc would harm markets where internet connectivity is poor (for example, in Somerset).

I think the most worrying thing is plans to prevent pre-owned games from running, this would piss me off to no end and would likely do the same for a great many people.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Prediction

"This generation the reverse is true, they make games for the 360, and then they're ported over to PS3. The games are aimed at the lowest common denominator."

No, it's even more basic than that. Sony's toolchain and developer support is rather lacking. Because the PS3 involves a lot of underpowered elements but a lot of parallelism, in order to achieve good performance, you have to exploit the latter.

The toolchain provided does a very poor job of abstracting or managing this, which means that very specific and far-reaching changes need to be made to get even a broadly equivalent performance out of the PS3 version of a game. Exclusives written from the ground up for that console specifically tend to do a lot better as it has to run acceptably *somewhere*, and the developers usually have more time to bang their heads against their threading models and the like.

The second big problem with the PS3 is just a lack of main memory, which really hobbles it. There is some shared stuff that is used for video memory, but the dedicated non-video memory is also a mere 256k. It's a bit of a nightmare to work in, with a lot of modern games. Witness all the halfwits crying and screaming about a conspiracy because it took ages to get Skyrim DLC working on the PS3, when it was a bloody miracle and some very nice work to get the base game crowbarred in initially.

No, what happens this generation is that multi-platform titles get a largely high level language port with some "low hanging fruit" tweaks to gain obvious performance or shinyshiny wins. If the toolchain is good and the platform has useful hardware resources, then the results are better, it's that simple. Never attribute to malice (etc.).

Hopefully Sony will have learned their lesson, it's in their interests. A really kickass toolchain would do wonders for the quality of PS4 games.

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Mushroom

"Hopefully Sony will have learned their lesson"

Judging by just about every previous example of Sony's behaviour in these matters that I can think of, I wouldn't bet on it!

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Prediction

Indeed, it's total tripe that the PS3 can't do 1080P 60FPS. Many PS3 exclusives have no trouble at all (GT5, WipeoutHD etc..)

What the real problem of course (and the problem nobody wants to upset Microsoft by talking about), is the Xbox Can't do it, so a whole generation of multiplatform titles have had to be reined in, just to cater for their rushed out pile of crap.

Sure the Xbox fanboys will downvote me, but it doesn't make it any less true.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Prediction

I would stop using the internet as your source of information, as it's utter tripe.

Whilst the Xbox only has 1 GPU, the PS3 has both the RSX and the Cell to do GPU rendering, and when used like this, it's in the region of 7x more powerful than what the Xbox360 can achieve (pick up a PS3 exclusive if you want to see it in action).

The EDRAM is a Xbox360 specific thing too. When using streaming textures from the Cell to the RSX, the PS3 is about 28x faster than the Xbox360. Pick up Uncharted and wonder why there is never any loading screens. Because it's coded properly to take advantage of texture streaming.

The PS3 has a perfectly fine hardware scaler thank you very much. Anyone that says otherwise is looking at a Microsoft funded blog from 2006 for their information. It was always there, but the VERY early PS3 SDK did not expose it, hence this myth. It's been available for use since 2008..

Next thing you will be telling us that DVD is faster than Blu-Ray (go check your facts on that one too, real facts that factor in CLV/CAV differences). The PS3's Blu-Ray is about 20% quicker at worst and about 45% quicker at best (depending where in the Xbox DVD disk you want to measure data throughput).

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Prediction

"The issue with PS3 games and not doing 1080p is in the publishers being payed off by microsoft to not allow higher than 720p because you know... xbox360 just doesn't do it."

You sir are a total frikkin spanner. You really think that with current game coding technology the developer gives two hoots what resolution the game is rendered at? The coder describes the environment and physics, the graphics hardware renders it at whatever resolution it can and the console will generate pictures based on this.

Are people really that lazy these days that they can't be arsed with exercise or even to learn why their games render the way they do? might as well end it now...

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Bronze badge

Re: Prediction

"This generation the reverse is true, they make games for the 360, and then they're ported over to PS3. The games are aimed at the lowest common denominator."

no they don't, they code a game engine, or reuse one then write a story and make pictures to support it. NOTHING is coded "to the console"

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Prediction

You clearly have no idea what you are talking about.

The PS3 RSX has 24 pixel shader pipelines and 8 vertex shader pipelines. It’s capable of 136 shader operations per clock, It's clocked at 550 MHZ and performs 74.8 billion shader operations per second.

The Xbox Xenos is clocked at 500 MHZ but has 48 unified shader units or pipelines. It performs 192 shader operations per clock and therefore is capable of 96 billion shader operations per second.

Whatever the CPU behind it does, the PS3 is limited by that inherently less powerful GPU.

The PS3 DOES NOT have a dedicated hardware scaler. It uses a software hacked horizontal scaler which comes at a CPU cost.

eDRAM is the prime reason more games on the 360 use MSAA (the most effective AA setting) than on the PS3. It's also a big reason why multiplatform games in general tend to look better on the X360. eDRAM allows for extremely fast access to framebuffers. It can essentially put off a huge workload when it comes to textures, AA and framebuffers, one reason why the X360 is more efficient with memory.

The 12X DVD drive in the Xbox IS up to twice as fast as the Blu Ray in the PS3, and never slower - which is why you have to copy the whole of many PS3 games to disk before you can even play them...

Blu-ray 2x: 8MBps

12x DVD: 8.2 - 16.5MBps

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Thumb Down

Re: Prediction

"The PS3 DOES NOT have a dedicated hardware scaler. It uses a software hacked horizontal scaler which comes at a CPU cost." -- YOU ARE ON CRACK! YOU HAVE NO CLUE WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT.

REALLY.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Prediction

You know you can have multiple GPU's right? PS3 games, much of the work is done by the Cell, and the RSX is nothing more than a framebuffer (most games these days take advantage of it's capabilities too however),.

In short, your Microsoft fed numbers falsely assume the PS3 has a single GPU, when it's actually got two. Hence totally invalid.

PS3 has a hardware scaler always has had. You fail here too.

And Blu-Ray speeds are quicker than the Xbox DVD. These numbers are FACT and no amount of Microsoft spin (pun) can change them....

2x Blu-ray Drive (72Mbps(9MB/s))

Single Layer (2x CLV) - Constant Linear Velocity (Same speed across entire disk)

Double Layer - (2x CLV) - Constant Linear Velocity (Same speed across entire disk)

Entire Blu-ray Disk is read at 9MB/s.

12x DVD-Rom Drive SL (9.25MB/S-15.85MB/s(AVG ~8x(10.57MB/s) DL (4.36MB/s-10.57MB/s(AVG ~6x(7.93MB/s)

SL(DVD-5) 12x Max (5-12x Full CAV) - Constant Angular Velocity (Speed Varies from edge to edge)

DL(DVD-9) 8x Max (3.3-8x Full CAV) - Constant Angular Velocity (Speed Varies from edge to edge)

SL DVD is 1.57MB/s > SL Blu-ray

DL DVD is 1.07MB/s < SL Blu-ray

Majority of 360 games are on DVD-9, which is only DVD8x.

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Silver badge
WTF?

Re: Prediction

2007-01-26

Google is a great thing. What the fuck, Sony?

And so we arrive at last to the most recent development, the late January PlayStation 3 SDK update. Amongst the newer versions of the various tools included in the SDK lies a new function: the ability for developers to use some of the functionality of the fabled hardware scaler, a scaler many previously doubted existed at all. Interestingly enough, "some" is the key word when describing the unlocked functionality; SCEI only gave access to hardware accelerated horizontal scaling. Horizontal scaling on its own cannot upscale a 720p image into 1080p/i --this would require both horizontal and vertical scaling. Hence, the newly exposed scaler functionality is not enabled in the PS3's user interface directly, but instead will still require developer support to work.

At the time of publication, the reasons why SCEI didn’t give developers access to both horizontal and vertical scaling are still unknown, as are the reasons they didn’t grant developers access to horizontal scaling until now. The video scaler itself remains shrouded in mystery, as strange as it may seem, but at least now we can say with confidence that it does indeed exist. There are multiple reasons for this continuing secrecy, and insiders are reluctant to discuss them even off the record, nevermind for publication. Nonetheless, the reasons behind SCEI's choices are not our subject today. While a great deal could (and will) be said about the nature of this scaler in the future, today's article will focus on the recently exposed functionality; the details of its hardware and the way that it is integrated into the PlayStation 3’s architecture will be reserved for a later article.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Prediction

If you believe otherwise then please tell us which chip contains a dedicated hardware scaler and provide proof of this?

The PS3 can do HORIZONTAL ONLY scaling, and whilst it is hardware accelerated, it still has a software dependency (i.e. uses CPU), and as stated IT DOES NOT HAVE A DEDICATED HARDWARE SCALER.

The Xbox 360 has a dedicated hardware scaler than presents no CPU load and can scale properly (horizonally and vertically. For the record, in the Xbox 360, this is the 'ANA' chip.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Prediction

You 'could' have multiple GPUs, but you don't. The Cell is not a GPU - Sony don't provide any GPU code for it - all of the GPU processing is via the RSX. Hence the limitations as above. This is obvious from the fact that across many releases that are on both platforms, the vast majority refresh faster, and / or look better, run at a higher resolution, and / or have better AA on the Xbox than on the PS3.

As above the PS3 has a hardware accelerated horizontal only scaler - not a dedicated scaler that scales horizontally and vertically at zero CPU cost like the Xbox 360.

Thanks for wasting loads of space with irrelevant figures on speed. Nice cut and paste from the internet btw, that you clearly don't understand - firstly you state that Bluray is 9MB/s - then you state that DVD @ 1.57 MB/S is faster!

Those DVD figures are just rubbish - the actual Xbox 12x DVD speed range from ~ 8-16MB/S - and can be optimised to put frequently used content in the faster areas of the disk.

This is why the PS3 is crippled by having to cache pretty much everything to disk before you can play it.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Prediction

The Google post sums it up - the PS3 does not have a dedicated hardware scaler. What is referred to in that post (as is made clear in the whole article) is a hardware accelerated (i.e. software driven) scaler - that can scale horizontally only.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Prediction

See http://www.avforums.com/forums/blu-ray-dvd-players/354919-2x-blu-ray-what-its-data-transfer-rate.html

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MJI
Silver badge
Mushroom

Will buy when

A must buy game appears on it.

I hope it still supports all the PS3 controllers, that would help.

But rumoured launch games may force a purchase. Explain what Naughty Dog other team and Guerilla Amsterdam have been up to? NDs other team should be near with another Uncharted but no noise even - unless this is due to TLOU delays. And Guerilla, I know Cambridge are working on a Vita game, but the main office, two years since KZ3, should have seen a KZ4 at last years E3, this to me says KZ4 is a launch game.

And of course Polyphony has mentioned GT6 is well under way.

I am going for the 4 big launch games are

Uncharted 4

Killzone 4

Gran Turismo 6

The Last Guardian

<------ Red Dust

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Coffee/keyboard

Re: Will buy when

GT6 as a launch game? Do you remember how long GT5 was in development? I think it was meant to be available soon after PS3 launch but it didn't ship until November 2010.

I really wouldn't hold my breath on that one.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Will buy when

What about inFAMOUS 3? :-(

Otherwise, I love the list

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MJI
Silver badge

Re: GT5 Infamous 3

Yes I do and I lost all interest by then.

Howver it is about the right time span and the rumours are coming from that directions

As to Sucker Punch - I think new IP is more likely.

Also I can't see all of MM doing Tearaway

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jai
Silver badge

Re: Will buy when

Is the Last Guardian still a concern? I was really really looking forward to playing that.... LAST YEAR :(

at the very least, i hope they bring out a 4K version of Shadow of the Colossus!

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Thumb Up

Re: Will buy when

"Will buy when

A must buy game appears on it."

That'll be Gran Turismo 6, Borderlands 3, or Cyberpunk 2077, then!

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Will buy when

Yep, Last Guardian was going to be the platform exclusive that actually tipped me over the edge and made me buy a PS3, I loved SOTC and Ico to bits, and was charmed by the Last Guardian trailer.

Didn't happen, and actually, I am starting to feel more and more "over" consoles, too. I play demanding games on my PC, and casual stuff on my iOS/Android devices. My existing consoles are packed away now. Not really that excited about the new PS or XBox unless they launch with some completely mental features that you can't get elsewhere, I must admit.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Will buy when

Tripe.

Full Gran Turismo games have NEVER been launch titles, nor have they ever been advertised as being. There is sometimes a prologue version out, but the real deal has never arrived on either PS1/PS2 or PS3 until mid-generation.

Go check your facts. Just because it was fun to jump on the GT5 delayed again bandwagon, doesn't make it any more true.

All you have done is make yourself look a total idiot that believes anything written on the internet.

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Re: Will buy when

What about inFAMOUS 3? :-(

I hope it doesn't happen, personally. The story is done. Just because a game series is good doesn't mean you have to keep producing sequels until you run it into the ground.

If you need a new inFamous fix, go play Festival of Blood.

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Re: Will buy when

So basically prettier versions of the same old franchises that many of us are bored to tears with? *sobs*

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Re: Will buy when

Don't forget Dragon Age III, which was recently announced would be coming to Next-Gen consoles after all.

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Anonymous Coward

SingStar on PS3 XMB anyone?

After the way SCEE have forced an advert on the XMB, in a 'hard to miss' place recently, for a 'game' that many people like me, would never have any interest in (SingStar) that cannot be removed, and then ignored all requests to make it removable. They are silent on the issue, even though many people want it gone. I don’t think I would even consider a PS4 (I have PS1, PS2 + PS3). SCEE is going in directions I would not want to follow… But hey, that’s just my humble lowly opinion...

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Bronze badge
Facepalm

Re: SingStar on PS3 XMB anyone?

Pah - I ended up using it anyway. So Sony's "plan" worked!

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Re: SingStar on PS3 XMB anyone?

I've seen this post somewhere before - maybe here, maybe on the Graun - and as a PS3 user I honestly don't know WTF you're talking about. I've never had an advert for SingStar appearon my XMB.

So I call bullshit and possible bot.

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@kyza

It's not bullshit - although whether it's an advert probably depends on individual point of view.

After the last update a SingStar icon appeared under Games on the XMB, no matter whether you had the game or not. Selecting it prompts you to download and install the game, and it cannot be removed. It annoyed me at first but now I don't even notice it's there tbh, but it's still a dick move by Sony.

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Re: SingStar on PS3 XMB anyone?

The SingStar icon appeared without notification in a firmware update. If you're not seeing it, then maybe you didn't download the latest firmware?

I believe that it only affects European users, and may be further limited to specific regions, so this may be another reason that you might not see it.

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MJI
Silver badge

Re: I threatened my boys

That if they mess about I will go into it on their login so it shows on their trophy list!

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Re: @kyza

Just had a look online at where it appears and even tho I've got 4.3 installed I honestly haven't noticed it...I;m going to have to go and look for it so I can be outraged now.

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Coffee/keyboard

Re: I;m going to have to go and look for it so I can be outraged now.

Excellent :)

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Re: SingStar on PS3 XMB anyone?

Exactly. With this and the Linux fiasco, I have lost faith with Sony.

I don't ask much from companies I do business with ... just the acknowledgement that what when I purchase something it becomes mine (and is not something that they should tinker with to my detriment) and a modicum of respect for my opinions and me as a paying customer.

Sony decided that they did not want to provide that so I have decided that I do not want to provide them with any more money.

Eagerly awaiting the Piston.

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Re: SingStar on PS3 XMB anyone?

Yeah, the Singstar thing on the XMB really pisses me off.

I dont want it and will never need to play it, I would have preferred stuff like this to be an optional extra.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: SingStar on PS3 XMB anyone?

Why don't you talk about all the featueres they HAVE given you? Ah yes, you forgot about them.

It's a double edged sword. You want full 3D support, latest Blu-Ray specs, Gakai and so on, but as soon as they add a XMB icon, or take away something that allowed freetards to pirate games, you get all upset.

Grow up, or just get an Xbox, it's full of 16yr old crybabies like yourself, you will be right at home.

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Anonymous Coward

Meh, too early for PS4

PS3 is still going great guns. The Last Of Us out in a couple of months, and Playstation Plus scooping up subscribers like no tomorrow...

I would put money on NO PS4 reveal, perhaps some hints. The focus will be on the Gaikai acquisition, and giving Playstation Plus gamers free access to thousands of PS1, PS2, PS3 titles and PC titles. Along with some hints that PS4 will support this out the box.

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Re: Meh, too early for PS4

Agreed. I still have a huge backlog of great PS3 content to get through before I even consider buying a PS4. Even if PS3 game production ceased today, I probably still wouldn't be finished with my backlog until at least 2015.

This generation of gaming has been amazing for me. :)

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MJI
Silver badge

Re: Meh, too early for PS4

I know what you mean but my back log is NOT that big, but I have not bought that many games.

But then as an example I could not be bothered with Skyrim yet my children do. Yet they don't like Fallout 3. CoD and BF do not interest me. Used to like Assassins Creed but lost interest during the 2011 game.

I am the only one to finish Dishono(u)red (twice and I have no kill - so cool).

I tend to run 2 games, one for SP and one for MP, currently they are Portal 2 with Sixence patch for Move and Killzone 3.

Probably get Far Cry 3 at some stage.

The Last Of Us and Bioshock Infinite are my two for the early part of this year.

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Anonymous Coward

I already have a PC

So it doesn't really make sense to spend hundreds of dollars so that I can play a handful of console exclusives. I also like the fact that I can play user generated content in games like Skyrim - a PC only feature. Also, my PC has a dual GPU graphics card with 2 GB RAM, so the console is unlikely to be as good. Should I decide to improve on that in the future, I have the option without buying a whole new PC. As usual, your mileage may differ, etc.

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MJI
Silver badge

Re: I already have a PC

Handful - there are a LOT of exclusives.

So you miss Uncharted, Killzone, Infamous, Gran Turismo, Resistance, Motorstorm, Little Big Planet, Journey, Ratchet & Clank, God of War, and a lot more. And if you are in the other camp Halo and GEARs of War.

Well over 25 above just for PS3 over 10 are over 90% on Metacritic of my list (eg no Wipeout)

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Meh

Re: I already have a PC

Yes but PCs are expensive to keep upgrading your talking about 500 to 1000 maybe higher if you want a top spec system. Consoles on the other hand you don't have to upgrade or the hardware is fixed apart from hdd though in ps3s. Not everyone can afford to keep upgrading PCs every five minutes god we would go bust lol.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: I already have a PC

You do realise, I assume, that PCs don't wear out any more than consoles do. Upgrading is purely optional, and only done if you want to improve performance even more - an option that is denied to console users. I am happy with the performance of my PC, haven't upgraded it since I bought it two years ago. It ran rings around the XBOX/Playstation then, and it still does now. In the meantime, consoles have not improved either, so nothing has changed. (Funny that.)

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Silver badge

Re: I already have a PC

I bought my two boys parts for a budget games PC (AMD K-5 based) and we overclocked it to half way decent 3Dmark score. What I didn't realise was how much more expensive the games are. Because, thanks to Steam, I appear to have to buy two copies of every game now.

Unless I'm wrong, in which case I would be very much obliged if someone could put me right.

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Re: I already have a PC

What I didn't realise was how much more expensive the games are. Because, thanks to Steam, I appear to have to buy two copies of every game now.

......Eh?

OK, look, I have a shitload of consoles, and a massive gaming PC that I built oodles of years ago for oodles of money. Given the option, I always buy stuff on PC, because my PC is just better, and the games are cheaper, by miles. Light years. Parsecs.

Name a game, and I can almost guarantee that the PC version is cheaper on launch. A month or two after release, the PC game is probably available for half the price of the console version. As soon as a Steam sale hits, it's probably a third of the price. That's where I make back the money on my expensive gaming PC, and the part that clueless console feckwits like the guy a few posts back always fail to grasp.

For example, last year I bought every single GTA game ever released on PC, including GTA4, expansion packs and all for....5 quid. Try that on PS3. A month or two ago NiGHTs Into Dreams got a PS3 release. I was going to buy it for 8 quid, then realised I could get it on PC two weeks later for 3.50. So I did.

How the hell are the games you're buying more expensive than console? I couldn't spend more on a PC game than a console game if I tried. And what's this "buying games twice" stuff? A retail game might come with a Steam code, but you still bought it once. I honestly don't understand what you're saying.

The truth is, over the course of its lifetime a gaming PC I build will span two console generations, and in that time, I will save more than the PC's value in game discounts. There's a reason that Steam sales always abuse my wallet: they're worth it. On top of that, online play on a PC has always been superior to a console, as well as free. Patches and mods aren't just readily available, but even encouraged by many developers. It's just a better ecosystem to be gaming in, where I'm treated as a customer and not a criminal, and the notion of after-sales support still exists (unless you're buying from EA, in which case fuck you, you filthy PC pirate).

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MJI
Silver badge

Re: Steam

Its problem is this, you have to buy a game for each user, not just one copy.

Take example the Half Life series. I bought it a while ago, now my boys want to play it, I have to buy it twice, once for each account if I don't want them playing on my account.

They only get Steam games when they are stupidly cheap.

There are similar lockouts with Vitas, you can only use the online code with one account/Vita this meant we spent ages looking for the cheapest LBPV

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