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back to article British armed forces get first new pistol since World War II

The British regular forces are to receive their first new pistol since World War II, as the long-serving Browning 9mm sidearm is replaced by a new weapon from the well-known Austrian firm Glock. Out with the old, in with the new The new pistol is the Glock 17 Gen4, which fires the same NATO standard 9x19mm cartridge as its …

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Re: You honestly think

>Take a knife running

Well, the NRA wants teachers with guns, so they can protect their students 'in time of need'...

”A pointed stick?!"

"Bananas. How to defend yourself against a man armed with a banana."

But, I'm glad zmodem has had his laugh for today.

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Re: You honestly think

I think it's a .50 caliber think lock leading to a misconception that all .50s are the same. You know, it's the 'a .50 cal. (AE) is a .50 cal. (BMG)' mindset. I think he is also ignoring the fact that a hit (with a 9) is worth more than a miss (with a .50).

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Re: You honestly think

you should watch more tv, 9mm dont kill people and why the police use them, its why american troops like the colt 45, because it kills in 1 shot

sidearms probaly never get used by the everyday soldier so there is no real point having them outside of trench warfare or jungles

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Re: @Zmodem

"a reinvented desert eagle with todays metals, would server more use with 3 people having them with 10 clips each"

Two points, first I have a 30+ year old shotgun that weighs a tick over 8 lb not 8 kg and the ones made with "todays metals" run closer to 7 lb but most of that is in the synthetic stock not the metal bits. Second, you need to learn a little about material stress so here's a quick primer. A higher pressure round needs more material to keep it from coming apart in all the wrong directions and the larger the diameter is the larger the stress in the metal so again more metal is required to keep it from coming apart. No matter what you do it will still require a certain amount of high strength steel unless you have far more dollars than sense and don't go thinking that S&W's scandium frames are much more than an expensive aluminium alloy and such a wonderful modern technology because aluminum frames have been around since about the 1950s.

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Re: @Zmodem

its still over 3.4 kg, and the users only main weapon, and cannot carry an a assault rifle of any kind, a shotgun case is still bigger then any bullet and kill range is still only 12 yards

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Re: @Zmodem

"I'm no army man"

Yes it's bloody obvious. One shot within ten yards and you'd crap your pants like the rest of us.

Stick to packing your 360 controller instead. Fantasy warrior!

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Re: @Zmodem

if im in london, i just go give them a slap

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Re: @Zmodem

either way, if you have been in the army a few years and not just left school, you wouldnt notice a bag of sugar hanging under your arm after a week or so, and have a desert eagle as your side arm, and still have your full assault rifle

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Re: ... most women at the range ....

I do know one woman, who, just before she had to return her ex's Desert Eagle 50, went to the firing range with it, and shot targets.

As required by the divorce court, she handed it over along with the last target she shot with it.

I wonder what he did to 'deserve' her putting all of the rounds shot through the genital area of the target???

But, he got his "toy" back.

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Facepalm

Ooh! a conversation about guns. Let me paint my neck red, get my cock out and start wanking.

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Re: @Flawless101

Oh how I chuckled =D

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Trollface

@jason 7 RE: "Did you not mean 50 yards?" I would imagine the he in common with.........

................most "pistoleers" would have difficulty hitting the proverbial barn (let alone its door), even at 50 yards, with any kind of side-arm. I can see him now going over the top* with his DE in one hand and a Ruger Blackhawk in the other - in his fantasies.

*I am not sure whether that expression is used in the way I meant it in US English. If not, then for our friends across the pond it is World War One slang used by British soldiers meaning to leave your trench and attack across "no man's land".

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Re: @Zmodem the

I'd suggest that its not just a bag of sugar but adding to the total of kit that a defence establishment has figured out that a combat soldier needs to drag round.

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dude, play much less Black Ops

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Re: @jason 7 RE: "Did you not mean 50 yards?" I would imagine the he in common with.........

I was being generous I know.

I remember reading up that after the Korean war to investigate body armour they pulled together all the injury stats from WW2 and up to Korea and found that in actual fact, in battle, you have much chance of being hit by an aimed bullet as you have with a random one or shrapnel. It's just a case of being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Plus most injuries occured within ranges of 300 meters not 2000 as has always been specified by the army ballistic rule book.

Basically in a actual battle situation accuracy and range goes to pieces. Being able to spray a lot of ammo very quickly in the enemies general direction is often the most common scenario.

Hence why there was a move to smaller caliber ammunition like the 5.56mm that didnt need to have effective aimed stopping power over the longer range 7.62mm.

Taking out bad guys from 100m away with your Desert Eagle is for the bad guy in the Steven Segal movies.

You might hit an elk at 10m with it though.

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Re: You honestly think

But of course! If you're carrying a knife, you're not carrying a gun, so you'll run faster!

It's just common sense.

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Re: @Zmodem

"if you have been in the army a few years and not just left school, you wouldnt notice a bag of sugar"

Three bags of sugar. 2 for the poser-piece and 1 for ammunition. Yeah: Because it's fun to carry 30kg+ of kit and then carry another 3kg of trash just for fun up mountains in 40C heat. Are you seriously still trying to argue the point that a .50AE is anything other than a fap-off piece for gamers and gangstas?

"hanging under your arm after a week or so"

Under your arm? So you're not wearing your vest then? Or is that magic kevlar and ceramics you have on, which is paper-thin?

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Desert Eagle?

AKA the chrome plated penis.

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Re: Desert Eagle?

We engaged targets over 500m with either mortars or javelins. L85 hit little at at that range in practicality. Shooting at real things in doorways and windows is nothing at all like being on a range. Pistol hits at 10 are good enough for most but simple body armour stops 9mm hence why fibua prefers shotguns (or tank induced patio doors if roa l.ets you) Pistols are for remfs

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Gimp

Re: The point is not always to kill

That wasn't a Desert Eagle, that was a Beretta 93R

http://www.imfdb.org/wiki/RoboCop

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Robocop

The first Robocop movie used another dressed-up silly pistol, the Berretta 93R pistol-carbine and not the Desert Eagle. They modded it by fitting the carbine shoulderstock cam that allowed three-round burst directly to the grip to make the muzzle compensator flash look really good on film at 24 frames per second. Recoil was dealt with by having the gun mounted on a solid frame when it was being fired plus careful choice of camera angles.

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HK .45USP tactical.

12 rnd mag, silencer threaded barrel.

20 rnd mag option

1 hit = 1 stop dead

9mm will not stop a drugged up assailant unless in a vital spot.

.45 SWC (semi wad cutter) chucks em backwards....

choice of SOCOG.

stopped testing for failures at 40,000 rnds.

at 25m I put 10 ot 10 into a 7" group in 30 seconds.

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@jason 7 RE: "I was being generous I know." I would argue that you were being positively.....

...saintly! As for the elk I suspect that that king of the forest would likely make cover before our "correspondent" managed to hit him. Though he might manage entirely randomly to fell a few trees while he was at it. :)

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have you ever fired a 50cal pistol?

you have just as much chance of hurting yourself than anyone else shooting one handed

this is the real world,not call of duty

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Re: I bleive that US army used to allow privatly owned wepons

That's your proof? A general can carry anything he wants. If he decides his sidearm is a cucumber.

Well, then his a sidearm is a cucumber. Doesn't make it a very effective weapon and it doesn't mean it is authorized by the US army.

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Re: The point is not always to kill

"Well in military tactics if a soldier is dead - no one is going to try and recover them, but if they are wounded, two maybe three of the opposition (sometimes more) will be busy treating evacuating etc and will be out of the fire fight!"

Not to mention the demoralising aspect of the wounded soldier's companions having to listen to him screaming his tits off in pain.

As for ranging: A carbine will always have worse effective range than a full rifle. Just because pretty much all military forces (except snipers) use carbines, doesn't mean that the guys on the other side will. Hunting rifles pretty much outclass anything soldiers carry except a sniper rifle at long ranges.

Pistols are for when you're caught with your pants around your ankles.

In a real firefight with one you'd be lucky to be able to hit the side of a barn. (FWIW, the requirement for UK police at places like Heathrow is to get 30% of shots on target - when provided unlimited time to aim and positon. Where the other 2/3 of shots go should make everyone in the area pretty worried - and you can be assured that 30% will become 1% in a real firefight. In those kinds of situations, pIstols are mainly about giving a false sense of security to the holder when used at ranges of more than 3 feet)

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Re: The point is not always to kill

Robocop actually has a heavily modified Beretta 93R (with a 50 round clip :P). The character played by Kurtwood Smith though had numerous versions of the Desert Eagle.

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Joke

Re: I bleive that US army used to allow privatly owned wepons

"......Well, then his a sidearm is a cucumber. Doesn't make it a very effective weapon....." I don't know, if some Marine was to come into the room with a mean look in his eye and a cucumber in his hand I'd sure be leaving fast!

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Re: madra

"Ooh! a conversation about guns. Let me paint my neck red, get my cock out and start wanking." Better still, you could drop one of those groundless prejudices you have been spoonfed and actually hear from people that actually have shot weapons, rather than just people that hate those that have. For a start, this is one of the ranges I've shot at, not a redneck in sight, but plenty of bankers, several politicians, some civil servants, and even a doctor, but no wanking (maybe that's just some subconcious, Freudian, homo-erotic slip on your part?): http://www.serc.org.uk/

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Vic
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Re: You honestly think

> the various AK designs tend to be accurate out to only 350-400m

Doesn't really matter. The primary purpose of the AK is to go "ratatat" and get everyone heading for cover. Hitting them is really an incidental bonus...

> your Desert Eagle has an effective range of around 50m

You can fling a 2Kg lump 50m and still hit something? I'm impressed.

Vic.

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Re: @Zmodem

> im no army man

...And you hide it so well...

Vic.

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Re: You honestly think

> you should watch more tv

You should watch less...

Vic.

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Re: @Zmodem

Oh, don't be an idiot all your life, boy. Life is far too short.

I served with the Territorial Army, and while that might have been something of a joke back then, it's all too serious now. When I trained, it was with a 9mm SMG as my primary weapon, the 7.62mm LMG as a secondary weapon, and the 9mm pistol as a toy that we needed to be familiar with. The infantry trained with 7.62mm all the way.

These days, my present-day equivalents are training and actually operating with 9mm pistols, 5.56mm rifles and light machine guns, 7.62mm GPMGs, as well as 40mm grenade launchers, and other munitions besides.

Not one of them considers the IMI Desert Eagle to be a valid choice. Not one of them has a moment of patience for a keyboard warrior like yourself.

You want to earn respect? Join up with a unit that has more than half a chance of being deployed in the nasty places of the world, either as a reservist or a regular.

Only then, when you have earned that Operational Service Medal (what used to be called a General Service Medal) will anyone really pay much more than pico second of interest in the utter rubbish that you are pedalling.

Formerly 24910712 Cpl Stenning, RMP(v)

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Happy

Re: You honestly think

The larger of the DEs may be good for possibly two things:

When undiscovered: Fire for effect (to get the enemy to die from excessive laughter)

When trapped/outnumbered/meeting one's maker: fire to break one's own neck.

I think I fired a DE on a controlled, indoor range, in 1992, and that mother***cker was heavy, and LOUD. I thought the DEAD could be awoken with it. The recoil definitely was a pure bitch. I thought it was shittier than a .45 cal, and I almost never hit ANYthing with a .45. I had better accuracy with smaller, easier to hold 9mm pistols, and had more confidence given the relative quietness and lesser recoil. The reverb in the range was a bitch, even with ear muffs on. Made me long for my JROTC days of .22 cal match rifles, when compared to the DE on an indoor range.

As for CQB, either shotguns, grenades, or "The Room Broom" are probably the more desirable weapons even from a list of 50 pistol/short-stock options. No way in hell you can reliably safe a room -- unless the target is "Blade's" very fast "Biscuit Boy"....

Rather than launching by gun, more excitement in getting into enemy confines might come from Tesla Grenades: lobby a trunk load into an area, then after a timer count, they start bouncing, like Bouncing Betties, lighting up the place, and going BOOM to some sort of masturbatory macho sound track for the benefit of the tosser/thrower/hurler. Clearing a room with a pistol is lunacy unless you have one of Shalon's people's TLC (Time Line Controller?) from Six Million Dollar Man, or one of those Scalosian Time Acceleration thingies from STTOS. Too many FPS games can make reality boring, eh?

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Joke

Re: I bleive that US army used to allow privatly owned wepons

Reminds me of in high school in JROTC and from watching one of the Vietnam war movies:

"THIS is my RIFLE, THIS is my GUN. THIS is for REAL, THIS is for FUN!"

Another possible use for a sidearm is for hostage taking --assuming one is not going to take a shot in the infamous (real life or TV) instant paralysis zone. And, assuming the person with the pistol at his or her head/neck/rib cage is not an expert and disarming and dodging CQB bullets. (Or, that general in Mars Attacks... Didn't he use a pistol?)

Does anyone know whether zmodem is real or a bot? He/she/it sure did lure in a lot of feeding, hehehe.

OT/Asides...

Anyway, unless I have significant, extensive, professional and paid-for range time and training, I probably not ever going to be confident of a 1-shot-1-kill with most pistols unless the barrel is self-landing with a Center of Mass audio cue. And, no, I would not care to use movie-style red lasers for pointing. All those lasers make me wonder who is the military or armory specialist advising the scriptwriters and director. I'd think that by now, some sort of IR or acoustic, signature-matching-for-raid-teams gizmo would exist so that there is insurance against bumping up against the targets using the same spectrum red. Might lead to a case of NO ONE firing, when they should, until it is too late.

And, if one is positing using a .50 cal DE at 500 yards or even 50 yards, why not go whole hog and start equipping battlefield soldiers with combat bows and arrows or 2,000 pound/pull, 7000 g-force black hole-generating arrow bombs? Hell, the whistling alone might open up a time-freezing rift. But, then that might spoil somebody's fun on the field of flames, assuming the arrows had boron or some solid fuel in their cores.... Hey, that might lead to 5-mile range arrows. Would give even Hercules a major boner.... But, maybe taking things up a notch with boron-fueled, FAE-speweing, timeline-freezing bomb-tipped arrow heads. What kind of treaty or arms limitations talks would have to be written for that shit to not become reality?

OK, enough of that OT of mine... (just wanted to inject some off-beat "humor" just in case it is useful...)

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Re: Desert Eagle? Are you kidding?

Since I'm not a bloke, perhaps I miss the point. I also live up north where most people are reasonably sane. There was one of those guys last time we were there with his girlfriend, he was trying to impress her. Everybody in the range was laughing at him.

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Re: @Zmodem

The reason that aircrew were issued with the PPK is that it's smaller and lighter than the Browning. Experience from the Falklands and Gulf One showed that the sheer inertia of the big, heavy Browning meant that it was separated from the pilot when he ejected - literally torn off the harness in the 26g acceleration that happens when the rocket motor fires. The lighter PPK didn't share this tendency. Having a PPK was better than landing, unclipping one's chute and finding you had no pistol at all.

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You are aware that the Yanks have developed a range of 'programmable' and explosive rounds for a shotgun, aren't you? They for eg enable you to shoot around corners and lob a round such that it will explode inside the room and not at the window or when it hits the back wall. These rounds are in theatre in Iraq and Afghanistan with the Marines.

So perhaps you need to get up do date before you mouth of.

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Re: Desert Eagles ....

I thought from Afghanistan that the favoured method of house clearance was a 1,000ib 'smart' bomb dropped by the jet you called in so none of your guys need put themselves in harm's way and sod the kiddies and other civilians and your crappy 'intelligence'.

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FAIL

Re: @Zmodem. going for a record?

"a eagle has a better range then a 12 yard shotgun"

No. It. Doesn't.

Clear indicator that you've learned about firearms from playing computer games. The only time you'd outrange a shotgun with a handgun is if you load it with birdshot. And who does that when you're shooting at people?

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WTF?

"HK .45USP tactical."

...Is very expensive.

And fires a non NATO standard piece of 100 year old ammunition.

"1 hit = 1 stop dead"

Massive myth. The .45 isn't that powerful. It's an old piece of lead kept popular by its iconic image. And I think only about a 70% stop according to FBI statistics. 10mm is more effective.

"9mm will not stop a drugged up assailant unless in a vital spot."

Nothing will. People only die from central nervous system damage or blood loss. Nothing else. If someone isn't incapacitated by shock and pain due to drugs, then they will not suddenly fall over by a bit of lead hitting them that has only marginally more energy than a different piece of lead.

".45 SWC (semi wad cutter) chucks em backwards...."

Physics says "no"!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newton%27s_laws_of_motion#Newton.27s_third_law

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Re: @Zmodem

" Or is that magic kevlar and ceramics you have on, which is paper-thin"

I expect zmodem is imagining the level where he has done the side quest and got the mythril plate armour with added anti grav/speed boots [+30.+15](+25,+40) while also playing in 'so piss easy your 8yo could do it' mode.

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Re: The point is not always to kill

And the carbine was originally issued to dragoons in their original role as mounted infantry. I have photos of my Great Uncle on his horse (Yeomanry Cavalry, so mounted infantry) in WWI (he was an Old Contemptible and served right through). He appears, small photo, to have a carbine. The point being weight and not wanting to tyre out your horse. The advantage was speed and mobility which made up for the lighter calibre. Just like horse artillery that kept up with the cavalry had lighter field pieces than the foot artillery.

Modern warfare is much more about speed and mobility with other weapons that can be deployed or called up in support when absolute firepower is required. So the average foot soldier has a semi automatic carbine which is more for keeping the head down of the farmer with the hunting rifle while he is dealt with otherwise.

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Re: You honestly think

>I'd be very impressed if an individual rifleman could tag a target at 800m with an iron sighted M-16! I think the M-4 is rated at 400m or less, isn't it? Certainly I've never known Americans to train at 500m+ with them. The L85A1 used to be rated to 400m (w/ SUSAT) for individual fire

Yep, the ranges I quoted were max ranges, from memory the M-16A2 with decent sights is really only effective out to 500-600m, while the M4 (which is just the carbine version under a new name) tends to top out at 2/3 that so around 350-450m.

The updated L85A2 from memory is one of the longest effective ranged assault rifles, along with the german G-36 - most of the other major assault rifles like the FA-MAS or Steyr Aug are 300-400m tops.

You're dead right that the changes in conflicts have moved to a requirement of putting lotsa lead in the right direction, ironic that the low impact guerrilla style wars everyone is getting involved in now have one side using a lot of hunting weapons, which tend to have a significant range improvement, if at the cost of ROF.

Says it all really that someone else mentioned using Javelins as a fall back long range weapon, at £60k a pop.

That, and I like Vic's idea of throwing the Desert Eagle, though I suspect it makes for a better club at close range.

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Re: The point is not always to kill

Not even Robocop was stupid enough to use a "DEAGLE", his was a modified 9mm Beretta 93R, called the "Auto 9". It was basically a Beretta 93R with a bigger magazine and longer barrel with "some extra metal on the end" to make it a bit more mean.

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BFG = Artillery

I believe armies even have specialists in operating those big fucking guns.

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Re: Desert Eagle? Are you kidding?

I'm not exactly sure what you're talking about. As previously mentioned, the DE is routinely chambered in .357 mag, .44 Mag, and (rarely) .50 AE. I own a Ruger Super Blackhawk (single action wild west revolver) in .44 Mag, and shoot it regularly (although after 18 rounds or so, I'm done with it for that visit). The gun is uncomfortable to shoot and the noise and kick are prodigious. On the other hand, it'll knock over a rather large steel plate at 25 yards where my 9mm will only go "tink".

Getting to the point: I rented a DE in .44 Mag one time, and was somewhat surprised at how much more comfortable it was to shoot than the Blackhawk, partly because of the increased mass and partly because of the gas operation. I wouldn't consider it to be something someone shoots "just once" and I don't see any real swaggering potential, to be perfectly honest. It's a massive gun, but that's because it shoots a high powered round.

.357 and .44 Mag are fairly common on the range in the US, and .357 Mag in particular is considered the "top stopper" for a defense round. .44 Mag is not generally considered a common defense round, being rather unmanageable in a tactical situation, but .44 Special (same slug, less powder) is.

...so I'm a little puzzled by this "desperately trying to compensate" thing. Unless one's experience with firearms was limited to the world of Ian Fleming, where .25 ACP is considered an effective defense round and .32 a top stopper.

Now, the .50 AE is a bit ridiculous. But the .50 AE is not considered a round for personal defense even in the movies.

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Re: The point is not always to kill

> I think the only place I've seen a Desert Eagle is coming out of Robocop's leg- the film's prop department stuck some extra metal on the end and thought it would appeal to teenage lads and Zmodem.

Um, no, it was a Beretta 93R in 9mm, although the part about extra metal on the end is probably correct. As I recall, it fired in 3 round bursts, which is probably not a good idea with any of the calibers for which the DE is chambered.

The Desert Eagle is a more massive handgun. There are versions with a barrel that long, but they don't look the same.

> The film, like the rest of the 1980s Verhoven classics, is being remade this year- wonder what they'll give Cyborg Murphy this time?

I did not recognize the handgun in the remake of Total Recall. (Much better film than the original, BTW.) I suspect it was created for the film. I suspect the same will be true for the new Robocop. (A film I plan to miss.)

> And Arnie's laser sight in The Terminator required a cable from the sight to a battery on his belt; again just a prop.

This is correct. Of course, these days, laser sights are common and relatively cheap.

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@Zmodem.

Zmodem dude... real combat is no Call of Duty... seriously WTF?

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Re: @Zmodem.

the actual kill range of a shotgun is 12 yards, the pellets might go futher and kill a weak person, the garenteed kill of a shotgun for 99% of the human race is 12 yards

real combat is nothing like a bunch of nerds in your local target range on a saturday

most people will never use their sidearm, except in close combat tip toeing around buildings, a 9mm wont kill most people, a desert eagle will probaly kill in 1 shot, you have less ammo, but you only need the 1 shot, and not half a clip of a 9mm

if you have targets 100 yards away, you are probaly better off practicing with a grenade launch with angles and wind like a sniper

most assault rifles do bursts of 6, if you dont have a target and its not cover fire, you dont fire

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