Manning was 'illegally punished', will get 112 days lopped off any sentence
US Army private Bradley Manning, who is accused of "aiding the enemy" by allegedly handing over classified Army documents to Wikileaks, will get 112 days cut from any prison sentence he could get if he's convicted on the charges. This is after a military judge ruled that Manning had been "illegally punished" in a Marine Corps …
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You, of course, will use the Nuremberg defence when needed.
Re: he's a traitor
"Didn't Guy Fawkes get hung, drawn and quartered?"
If you think it's cool that someone got/should get tortured to death who didn't even kill anyone, then you are a very sick child.
Re: he's a traitor
This is the American Military we're talking about here, all they understand is dead bodies.
Didn't Guy Fawkes get hung, drawn and quartered?
Technically. However you'll be sorry to hear that he managed to cheat the executioner by throwing himself off the scaffold and breaking his neck. So he wasn't alive for the drawing and quartering. You sick puppy.
>In america they pledge allegiance to the flag daily at school,
That's probably a necessity: Most US 'hawks' base their thinking on the premise that the US is so divided - culturally, and more importantly, financially - that the only 'glue' that can stop the country ripping itself apart is the threat of a common enemy. This came out in the cold war, where CIA analysts decided that the USSRs military power was waning, so the neo-cons put together a think tank and decided that, for example, the inability of the CIA to detect Soviet submarines wasn't due to their absence, but rather that the sneaky ruskies had a developed a silent propulsion system a la Clancy's The Hunt for The Red October. There's video of Rumsfeld putting this forth this idea during the Reagan administration.
"Hey! How dare you tow a car with the American flag on it! Are you half-Taliban or something?!"
Donald Rumsfeld's Team B:
According to Anne Hessing Cahn (Arms Control and Disarmament Agency, 1977-1980), Team B's analysis of weapons systems was later proven to be false. "I would say that all of it was fantasy... if you go through most of Team B's specific allegations about weapons systems, and you just examine them one by one, they were all wrong."[29] The CIA director at the time, George H. W. Bush, concluded that the Team B approach set "in motion a process that lends itself to manipulation for purposes other than estimative accuracy."[6][8] Brookings Institution Scholar Raymond Garthoff concurred, writing that in "retrospect, and with the Team B report and records now largely declassified, it is possible to see that virtually all of Team B's criticisms... proved to be wrong. On several important specific points it wrongly criticized and 'corrected' the official estimates, always in the direction of enlarging the impression of danger and threat."[30] A top CIA analyst called Team B "a kangaroo court of outside critics all picked from one point of view."[14]
-http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Team_B for the sources.
@"pledge allegiance to the flag"
What a troll - I shall now definitely continue to worship the speghetti monster with the help of my babel fish. From here it looks like Bradley Manning has been badly treated by all concerned but that's only my opinion - I could be wrong blah etc
Well
have (almost all - bar the Taliban and the US Establishment) grown up since hten
If his punishment was illegal then presumably somebody within the military that was responsible for that treatment ought to be arrested and punished for those illegal acts? Or is that too much to expect?
Along with
Those performing illegal acts on the released video footage also being arrested and punished for them.
Good luck with that, even though they are arguably war crimes.
Re: Along with
Would be great of those who inflicted the illegal punishment were represented in court by Jack Nicholson, a la A Few Good Men. I'd pay to watch that.
"Or is that too much to expect?"
Are you new here?
Only minor criminals in OTHER COUNTRIES get chased to and beyond the extent of the law.
Sure that 112 days off his 9000 year sentence will be a great relief. The 'merkins will not stop until they have totally destroyed that kid.
" The 'merkins will not stop until they have totally destroyed that kid."
And rightly so.
Uhm....
"Manning was 'illegally punished', will get 112 days lopped off any sentence."
Why are the people who 'illegally punished' him not being prosecuted and facing jail time?
Re: Uhm....
Why, they didn't upset the important people, of course.
Measure Twice, Cut Once
Manning was 'illegally punished', will get 112 days lopped off any sentence
"Manning's charges include "aiding the enemy", a charge that carries a life sentence.
How will they know when to let him out for those 112 days unless... oh, my.
Re: Measure Twice, Cut Once
They could give him the 112 days at the beginning of the sentence, rather than the end I suppose.
Re: Measure Twice, Cut Once
Like he wouldn't run. Nothing to lose at that point though.
Re: Measure Twice, Cut Once
My query in - 112 days? Why not..say...100?
112 seems very specific, and reaks of an arbitrary calculation done somewhere.
Re: Measure Twice, Cut Once
You could complain about 100 days being even more arbitrary - and no doubt someone would have. Jail sentences and, by extension, time off them, are arbitrary by definition; why should you get 5 to 10 for Crime A instead of 6.2 to 9.66? It's not like certain crimes are cosmically linked to time constants.
Let's face it...
Let's face it... he'll never reach sentencing. He will "take his own life" long before that.
This can't go to sentencing, the whole thing opens up to many legal problems.
It's like Bin Laden... after the Saddam trial fiasco where he was found guilty of killing people who turned up to give testimony for the defence saying "I'm not dead", the US can't allow this to run it's course.
Re: Let's face it...
Congrats, you win a shiny new tinfoil hat.
[by which I mean, i really, really, really hope you're wrong]
Heartwarming
When this story first broke, there were people lining up around the block demanding that Manning be hung, tortured, and worse for his supposed treason. I think many people have a warped/misguided sense of patriotism, honor, and reverence for the military and its secrets. Probably due to our many TV shows that are thinly-veiled military propaganda.
It is genuinely very heartwarming to me to see that people posting to this comment thread are now overwhelmingly on the side of Manning and it seems to be well-understood how big of a sacrifice he made for his country (and the world) and the obvious good it has done.
"...a charge that carries a life sentence."
"...112 days cut from any prison sentence..."
I can see it now:
Prison Warden: "Well, Manning... I have good news and bad news. The good news is that you're a free man! The bad news is that the doctor just ran some tests, and, well..."
Manning may be more of a patriot than anyone will give credit for.
Let the downvotes begin...........
I propose that Bradley Manning was trying to "overthrow an unjust goverment" without using guns by letting the world know what war crimes the US government had perpetrated. Julian Assange was simply helping him accomplish his goals.
Neither one was committing a criminal act in my opinion, they were acting heroically.
FACT: One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. Sounds to me that Manning is a real patriot.
Perhaps the media should spend some time looking at the REAL causes for gun violence instead of pretending to know what the reasons are...strangely enough it appears that almost every one of these shootings began with mentally ill or severely bullied people who somehow had access to guns. Where is that being discussed?
It is technically impossible to prevent the concerted efforts of ANY terrorist because they ALWAYS WILL find some way to effect their agenda either with physical force, explosives, hammers, baseball bats etc. Taking away guns, even so called "assault rifles" will not ever solve that. Once you understand this and can do something about it to fight back, you can stop living in the fear that Terrorists thrive on.
If Manning is a terrorist, then what are the guards in the prison?
FACT: Hitler took the guns, Stalin took the guns, Mussolini took the guns and those people had no means to fight back.
Stop trying to blame the tools, when the user must take ultimate responsibility for how the tools are used.
Creating a "Nanny State" in the USA just like all of Europe and elsewhere does not prevent criminals access to guns. People must take full responsibility for their actions, not the government. Only you can protect yourself, either through diligent observation or the ability to PERMANENTLY rid yourself of the criminals.
The following quotes have been attributed to Thomas Jefferson. They should not be ignored as they color the actual intent of the US Constitution.
"The constitutions of most of our states (and of the United States) assert that all power is inherent in the people; that they may exercise it by themselves; that it is their right and duty to be at all times armed; that they are entitled to freedom of person, freedom of religion, freedom of property and freedom of the press." Thomas Jefferson
"The beauty of the second amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it." -Thomas Jefferson
"Laws that forbid the carrying of arms..disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes. Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed one." - Thomas Jefferson quoting Cesare Beccaria, Criminologist in 1764. That was 230 years ago. -Thomas Jefferson
The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government.-Thomas Jefferson
Government big enough to supply everything you need is big enough to take everything you have ... The course of history shows that as a government grows, liberty decreases.
The two enemies of the people are criminals and government, so let us tie the second down with the chains of the constitution so the second will not become the legalized version of the first.-Thomas Jefferson
Experience hath shewn, that even under the best forms [of government] those entrusted with power have, in time, and by slow operations, perverted it into tyranny.-Thomas Jefferson
Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of liberty.-Thomas Jefferson
We had some pretty smart people set up this Constitution and we should not change it lightly.
Re: Manning may be more of a patriot than anyone will give credit for.
It is obvious to me that neither Manning nor Assange did anything illegal.
Manning, for one thing, was whistleblowing. The documents he leaked proved that people in the US government were doing illegal activities, thus his disclosure of said documents was an act of whistleblowing, which is protected by law.
Assange, being a citizen of Australia, has no obligation to follow US law, thus the act of simply receiving some documents from a US citizen and publishing them online can't possibly be illegal.
The fact that these people are being persecuted is simply because the US government is butthurt that their secrets were exposed.
Re: Manning may be more of a patriot than anyone will give credit for.
I must have missed the bit where the US tried to charge Assange with a crime. A couple of blowhards here made noise about the guy - big whoop. Some numbnut is trying to get Piers Morgan deported for being in favor of gun control; that doesn't mean it's a US policy.
Why don't you wait until something actually happens, and then criticize the that, rather than saying, "The Americans are such rat bastards that I wouldn't put it past them to charge a non-citizen under THEIR law!" ... (ten minutes later) "MY GOD, I HEARD THE AMERICANS ARE GOING TO CHARGE A NON-CITIZEN..." etc etc.
Jeesh. There are plenty enough real things to get worked up about rather than tilting at straw men of your own design.
As far as that goes, I find it bizarre that the US is singled out for being the fundamental evil in the universe, but the UK and Sweden - the only countries which have actually filed any formal charges about anything - get off without so much as a wrist-slap; apparently they're so cowed by US world hegemony that they can't be held responsible for their own apparent spinelessness.
Then there's the bit where the same people who scream bloody murder about what idiots wikileaks are in any other thread suddenly turn Assange into the People's Great Hero when they realize that it'll let them get in a few good licks in the "'merkins" - haha, I see what you did there! You pretended like it's a southern accent, because southerners are stupid! Oh, it is to laugh!
I think Assange is being railroaded - somehow - and I think things like Wikileaks need to be allowed to exist. But jeez, the jingoism and what seems to be pure hatred for anything the US does is enough to make me want to shave my head and yell stuff like "hoo-ah!" and "semper fi!". And I know I sound like an idiot if I yell "hoo-ah!" and "semper fi!" because my wife gave me a really withering look when I did it the other day.
Sigh.
Re: Manning may be more of a patriot than anyone will give credit for.
Actually, I don't call the ones I dislike (most of them over here) 'merkins, I call them Merkins.
Look it up!
Re: Manning may be more of a patriot than anyone will give credit for.
I know what it means, and I've seen it both ways. Neither way is particularly clever, honestly.
Democracy
America and the UK and the rest of the western world have either forgotten what democracy is or never understood in the first place.
They are all so pathetic. They got too involved in playing power games that any regard for human life and morality have long been lost. It is modus openrande of today's political puppets and their puppeteers the big business.
Millitary do not hire for intelligence in fact contrary. There are good man like him and he has served his people more than any other politician since Franklin.
I am not surprised to hear that children in the US of A are made to almost "kiss" the flag. I wonder if any of them know why or what for. Respect is earned and earned by inspiration not beated in to you. Shame not many understand it and those that do don't practice.
We have lost it. It will take a long road ti get back and understand our sins and mistakes.
Re: Democracy
Democracy is the rule of the most convincing liars. It has nothing to do with ensuring limited government or moral government. The fundamental reason our governing classes are going to pot is that we don't have the same resistance to democratically elected governments that we did to monarchical governments, so that democratic governments can behave like drunken sailors with hardly a peep from the populace.
Re: Democracy
" Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time."
Re: Democracy (is still alive & well)
I agree that Democracy is not understood anymore but it's definition changes with time and situation.
"Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of liberty"-Thomas Jefferson
Yes, ALL POLITICIANS ARE PUPPETS (but what does that make us!?)
School children do not "kiss" the US flag. In fact, many schools (mostly Northern) allow objectors to remain seated during the "Pledge of Allegiance". However, don't expect a warm welcome from many if you are an objector, especially down South. (runs like hell as the strains of "Deliverance" banjo music fill the air)
This all gets further exacerbated by "patriotic fervor". Should have seen it back around the WTC incident, scary as hell.
The only thing missing was the brown shirts and jackboots.
As far as "Respect is earned" I can't say. The problem as I see it is that too many children are raised with far too much "self esteem" and too little "yardstick". Some of these kids do not respect anyone, even themselves. The sassback and threats are outrageous and teachers cannot do anything about it because they will get fired for speaking the cold hard truth. God forbid they defend themselves.
Too kind.
112 days off what will probably be a 545 year sentence. Chin up, that's only 544 years and 253 days to serve...
How lucky it is to be a citizen of the Home of the brave and the Land of the Free.
Re: Too kind.
How lucky it is to be a citizen of the Home of the brave and the Land of the Free.
Somehow I get the feeling that no matter where you live, joining the military and leaking state secrets (whether or not they're nefarious) will get you in a heap of trouble. If you're in Norway they'll probably put you up in cushier digs, but I can't imagine there are many countries where the authorities will say, "Oh, hang on - you were really a whistleblower? Our bad. And yeah, some of that shit we did really was out of line. Tell you what, you've been in the brig for six months - let's just call it even."
Call out the US for its issues, fine - but don't act like we're some kind of uniquely evil hegemony. Particularly if you happen to come from a country where you can get thrown in the slammer for posting a picture of burning flowers on Facebook...
"Manning's charges include "aiding the enemy", a charge that carries a life sentence."
How will they take 112 days off a life sentence?
How's the math work out?
Life without parole minus 114 days for alleged improper punisment? Who can do such complicated math?
Re: How's the math work out?
It's not "alleged" any more... it is actual/proven
Hmm
112 days is small fry compared to the gazillion years or life without parole he's going to get upon conviction.
He will be convicted. This is the US we're talking about.
Re: Hmm
"He will be convicted. This is the US we're talking about."
According to a not-insignificant amount of searching (ie, looking at primary sources and government stats rather than just wikipedia) it seems that civilian conviction rates for the US and the UK are roughly similar - around 80%, give or take. It's difficult to find real numbers because the rates for convictions-per-trial are hard to find and often swamped by articles talking about convictions-per-report for rape and sexual assault (which are vastly lower, interestingly, even than conviction rates for 'regular' assault, which makes one wonder...).
Regardless, those stats jibe with my memory of a recent Economist article discussing just this; the US, UK, France, etc, were, IIRC, fairly similar. Again, IIRC, Germany was higher than most Western nations and Japan stuck out like a sore thumb at the top with 99%, the vast majority on the back of (most likely dubiously-acquired) confessions.
Conviction rates per *arrest* rather than per *trial* are vastly lower here - something under 100 per 1000; I don't know about the UK.
Regardless, unless you're talking specifically of military courts, which are a horse of a different color everywhere, I suspect, your singling out the US as some kind of doomed-as-soon-as-they-cuff-you police state is, to put it mildly, overstating your case.
Re: Hmm
Prisoners per 100,000 population :-
USA 730
St Kitt & Nevis 649
Rwanda 527
Georgia (Eurasia) 514
Russia 502
Belarus 438
El Salvador 425
Thailand 337
Iran 333
Israel 236
Poland 220
United Kingdom: England & Wales 154
Spain 150
China 121
Italy 109
France 102
Germany 83
Japan 55
India 30
Faeroe Islands (Denmark) 21
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/23/world/americas/23iht-23prison.12253738.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0
Manning is a hero
I don't know why some of you think Manning was a traitor. What he exposed was blatant human rights violations by the U.S. government. All humans are responsible for bringing those to justice for such crimes. That supersedes any military obligations that Manning had.
Does that sound like wishful thinking? Only if you want to continue to live in world where the Bushes, Cheneys and other morons get away with such trash.
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