'Leccy-starved Reg hack: 'How I survive on 1.5kW'
Here's a provocative question for readers in these power-hungry times: could you survive in a house where the total power draw of all your electrical appliances and fittings at any one time can't exceed 1.5kW? An overloaded kilowatt meter Preposterous, we hear you cry. Stick a load in the washing machine and put the kettle on …
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Re: If you're on a mountain...
I was going to take issue with mentioning Spain and "advanced 21st century Western civilisation" in the same article but if it only takes a year to get permission to move a rock then your part of Spain is nearer to the 21st century than I first thought.
Oh, and it's not much better in the big cities. We can risk two big appliances at the same time, kettle and iron for example, any thing above that and it's blackout and reset all the clocks time.
Re: Re: If you're on a mountain...
Ah well, it takes a year to get the permission, then another two for the town hall to tell you you were granted the permission, which has now expired so you'll have to apply again to move that rock...
Re: If you're on a mountain...
"Obedezco pero no cumplo"
Ah, for the good old days....
Re: If you're on a mountain...
@Lester
You don't have to go far outside London for power cuts to be de rigeur.
Granted, we can pull 4kW no problem, but you soon get REALLY cold sans power in winter. Gas heating needs a pump. Unlike Spain.
We do have a Victorian type fire place, Edwardian actually, but it's useless at heating the house.
Nuclear because, well, it doesn't help.
Re: If you're on a mountain...
Lester:
"The local town hall takes at least year to grant permission to move a rock from one place to another."Here the rules have changed slightly. If they don't get back to you within a certain time, then you automatically have permission!
Lester:
"A wind turbine? The mayor would have a fit.."Well, the house and garages I bought were actually built by the mayor. Oh, no they weren't legal either; getting that sorted was more fun that getting the eleccy approved. It seems that you just do what you want, and what the hell; everyone else does!
Re: If you're on a mountain...
you're suggesting that, haviing a mountain, he could have some sort of underground lair, E.S.Blofield like with a nuclear reactor?
Re: If you're on a mountain...@BristolBachelor
The problem with "do and sort it out later" is that in these small villages there is always someone with a grudge to bear and if they haven't they'll find one. They take the attitude of French peasantry and turn it into an art form on a level that thos who haven't witnessed it can't immagine, even in my wifes village where the name has more letters that the place has habitants, one of them will always want to get on over and snitch on you. I seem to recall a village where the mayor was murdered and everyone was a suspect.
If Franco hadn't had a form of relationship with Nazi germany and the latter had occupied Spain the Gestapo would have been overwhelmed with tit-for-tat telltales.
@ Andrew Moore
> The standard Spanish methodology in this is to build first and ask permission later giving the "well, it's already done now" or "es completo ahora" excuse.
I'd be surprised if that still works (unless you're building entire housing estates). The whole licensing thing in Spain is a money raising caper. The Town Hall charge typically 3% of the cost of the job to give you the rubber stamp. If you did try the old "it's easier to get forgiveness than permission" ruse not only would they rake in a nice big fine, but you'd still have to pay for the license.
You may even suffer the ignominy of paying the fine and then being required to dismantle / demolish your "illegal" works, and THEN to apply for a licence to rebuild it.
"Dad, this is utterly preposterous in an advanced 21st century Western civilisation."
As someone subjected to the jibes of others on this forum and of BT Openreach "engineers" (when I ambush them in the street) regarding the lack of decent broadband where I live in the UK, I sympathise. I think here the answer lies in a re-evaluation of the premise in your son's statement.
Ré Kettle
You have a gas oven, and presumably a gas hob, why use an electric kettle??
Solar Powered LED lights would save a few watts especially hooked up to a suitable storage battery.
Petrol powered cement mixer????
Roof mounted solar water heater would handle the washing machine problem, and baths etc.
Back to the gas - how about a gas turbine powered electrical generator??
Finally, how old are the children?? A child sized hamster wheel provides hours of fun, and a fair few KW if hooked to a genny.
Re: Ré Kettle
And you can certainly do (better) popcorn on the hob instead of in the microwave.
Re: Ré Kettle
Since it's an 800W kettle boiling water on the hob would definitely be quicker.
Hell boiling water in the sun would be quicker!
My kettle uses more power than Lester can get.
Re: Ré Kettle
"Finally, how old are the children?? A child sized hamster wheel provides hours of fun, and a fair few KW if hooked to a genny."
Sadly, a human can provide a few hundred Watts, tops. 750W is a useful approximation for one horsepower, and only a few people can manage more than about a third of a horsepower for any length of time. Most of those few are former adversaries of Lance Armstrong.
Re: Re: Ré Kettle
What I need to do is to tap the immense amount of energy the kids produce in moaning about mixing concrete and breaking rocks.
Re: Ré Kettle
<a href='http://www.amazon.co.uk/Purple-whistling-kettle-2-5Ltr-Stainless/dp/B0079GDOF6/ref=sr_1_22?s=kitchen&ie=UTF8&qid=1357746844&sr=1-22'>Try something like this</a>
Re: Getting the children to break rocks...
Is that even allowed these days?
Inverters for Buffering / Storage
You should look at http://www.victronenergy.com/. They sell a lot of inverters to people who live on canal boats and such like. Their shore power is often limited to 8 amps. Victron sell versions of their inverters which can create a local electricity grid, and bring in power from an external source, or from storage batteries. You set the current limit from the grid (or in many cases a generator) and any excess demand is sourced from the batteries. When the demand from the house / boat reduces, any excess capacity from the grid is used to charge batteries.
SMA make the Sunny Island which is also worth considering.
Don't ever use car batteries for this purpose. Car batteries are designed to supply high current for very short periods of time. To do this they have a high number of very thin lead plates. If you discharge the battery too far the plates distort, short out and eventually the battery dies. Also beware of "leisure" batteries. These are often only marginally better than car batteries for deep discharge. You bet bet is to look for Fork Lift batteries, even second hand ones. Companies who run fork lifts will discard them once they get to the stage where they can not support the fork lift for the full 8 hour shift. Your demands will be far smaller, so you should still get many years (5+, perhaps 10) from a well chosen second hand battery. Fork Lift batteries can last over 20 years from new if looked after well.
With the price of scrap lead, you shall not be wasting money - think of the batteries as an investment.
The boys over on www.navitron.org.uk/forum/ have lots of experience in inverters and batteries.
Re: Inverters for Buffering / Storage
Tim,
As someone who has been looking into UPS for my home (at least a couple critical circuits like the fridge and lights) just wanted to say thank you for your extremely informative post.
Regards.
Re: Inverters for Buffering / Storage
AC,
Look out for APC Smart UPS XL on eBay advertised as not working. Make sure you go for the XL version as it has an uprated charger so you can connect very large external batteries to it. Normal versions may not be able to charge large batteries.
I bought my APC Smart UPS 750 XL on eBay for £3 (three quid!) as broken. 95% of the time it is simply a case of changing the batteries. I just asked the seller to discard the batteries and send me the empty chassis. I then added 4 off 12v 75Ah gel cells externally. I get over 8 hours run time with a 300w load.
My gel cells are CSB Battery GPL12750 from http://www.csb-battery.co.uk/products/gpl.asp. Again bought of eBay. Some guy over ordered for their data centre by 8 off batteries, so I picked them up for £30.
Other brands of UPS may also be worth considering - I have only ever owned APC's, and one massive Chloride job.
Re: Inverters for Buffering / Storage
Ditto on the APC UPS's. I have a 2200VA one powering my PC setup and will only ever buy APC now.
Re: Inverters for Buffering / Storage
I have a couple of 1000VA ones sitting idle. The fact that they were consuming 150w on idle and the PC total load was 135W made me decide against continuing to use them when their batteries gave up.
A thought provoking argument
and one that should be required reading for anyone who thinks wind and solar power are going to save us.
Kinda reminded me of the part of "Apollo 13" where they have to find the power to fire up the Command Module ...
Re: A thought provoking argument
Most of those folk will be nodding sagely and going "microwave... plasma Tv... madness, madness!" anyway.
I am (N160 netbook, external HDD, broadband dongle. 1 LED spot, 1 8W CFL, and a woodstove).
Solution
Just make the popcorn on the stove - buy popcorn kernels raw, add butter and heat in a covered pan, shaking merrily every few seconds to get an even coating of hot butter on them. Then season to taste (sugar/salt/cayenne/toffee/mustard/marmite/...).
Or, you could go for "raw popcorn" (aka cauliflower): http://tv.naturalnews.com/v.asp?v=1B2DA134A9CE4FD4F47EC79271D5D453
I seem to recall there's some protocol out there that will negotiate power to a set of domestic outlets (X-10 protocol) - perhaps it could be extended to work with a cap and assign priorities do different outlets so if you flick the switch on the kettle it de-powers the telly rather than tripping a breaker. It will require kit either in every plug or socket, plus a controller by the main fuse box.
What you have is a similar problem to radio admission control in mobile networks - lots of possible solutions but effectively requires a single controller unit (or bags of capacity)
Re: Solution
The stove is the answer and gives you much better popcorn BUT you must never do them in butter. Smoking hot oil is the way to go. Butter will burn at the required temperature. After you've popped the corn is the time to pour melted butter all over it.
Re: Solution
> so if you flick the switch on the kettle it de-powers the telly rather than tripping a breaker.
> It will require kit either in every plug or socket, plus a controller by the main fuse box.
Standard components in DIY stores in France where old apartmemts have the same problem as Lester. Just google for "delesteur". Not sure if they go as low as 1.5kW though, 3kW is the usual minimum household tariff.
@Dr Who (was: Re: Solution)
Investigate clarified butter. Raises the smoke point by around 110F (~70C). Works fine for popping corn. Personally, I use peanut oil. Sometimes I use the same wild boar manteca that I use for tamales, but getting a good smoke-free "pop" means knowing your gear with this option.
I think the problem is...
'an advanced 21st century Western civilisation'
When has Spain ever been an 'advanced civilisation'
There is your problem.
Re: I think the problem is...
The boy is referring to our house, which we consider an outpost of Empire.
Re: I think the problem is...
Que inventen ellos.
And Lester is obliged to move the meter outside the property into a sealed box because the electricity companies assume that any customer is a thief and will bridge it. The fact that sparky from Iberdrola will probably do it for you for a nominal fee paid in cash is beside the point.
Re: Re: I think the problem is...
What I really object to is destroying the façade of a building at my expense to make things easier for Iberdrola. They could install internal wireless meters and be done with it, but then that would cost them cash and their customers would be bridging as normal...
Re: I think the problem is...
Dear Longrod,
To put in context, do you think that a civilisation capable of producing a moronic racist like you deserves to be called "advanced"?
Regards,
Andrés García
Re: Re: I think the problem is...
So that's what a Spaniard on a hook posts like.
Re: I think the problem is...
The signal would never make it through your 80cm stone walls ;)
Hrmm, dual feed?
How many 1.5kw consumer units are you allowed, then?
(I realise this is probably totally illegal, just asking).
Re: Hrmm, dual feed?
well in Italy, where we are allowed 3kw (but still have quite a few over-current events), it's possible to solve the single consumer unit feed problem by buying a "Casa isolata bifamiliare" i.e a villa designed for extended families with double everything. During purchase I got it converted to a 'casa isolata unifamiliare' but forgot to tell ENEL or the water and gas companies (hence avoiding the penal taxes on second homes, but whilst still getting a wealth of infrastructural resources)
In Italy the cost of the certification for electrical work is the same as the 'leccy doing the actual work, so DIY hardly exists.
If the roof of the mountain house is high/fragile enough then 3kw peak PV is the right choice this year, (the high/fragile roof is needed as there have been a few thefts in Spain of the actual PV panels recently)
Ahh the joys of the spanish electrical supply
My in-laws had an even simpler problem. They just wanted an uprated supply so they could leave the freezer on between visits (other people visiting less knowledgable in the ways of spanish electricals would cause it to trip). Between getting the permits and getting the work done it took nigh on 2 years.*
Admittedly its a holiday home but still........
Popcorn in the microwave??
I can make it faster on my gas hob (powered by bottled gas because I live *miles* outside a major city - all 7 of them).
However, I do sympathise with you Lester. I'll restrict the usage of my air source heat pump tonight in your honour. The kids can put on jumpers and have cold baths instead.
Re: Popcorn in the microwave??
That's what I was wondering... any cooking could and should be done with gas, as should any heating; a gas water heater is almost always cheaper than electric.
You're in Spain, install a PV array and soak up all that lovely Iberian sun. Not much use to you at night, but solves half the problem at least.
I wouldn't advise going off-grid and using batteries. They're expensive, require ongoing maintenance and you'll still need to be generating yourself. You can't generally mix electrical storage and a grid-supplied connection.
Just go for a grid-tied microgeneration option, the easiest and least hassle being PV.
I'd love a PV array. I just wish I had the wonga right now to buy one...
When is El Reg going to run
....a PV supplier comparison test?
We'll need a test subject. Any takers? :D
Well, your only realistic option is controlling demand as much as possible then. You can do a bit on the technological side to attack base load, but attacking the peaks is more behavioural.
Bureaucracy stands ready to squash any array more than 100kW. Even if it's less than 100kW you're in for a Kafkaesque nightmare if you want to tie it to the grid.
(In Spain, of course.)
We were going to do that where I am in cash-strapped Iberia. But...
they've cut the payments by 30% per unit, meaning there's no positive return on your investment.
The microgen scheme here requires you to fit a 6.7kWh 2-axis tracking array, so you're out £20k up front, and in for 12 years before you get a clear profit, without inflation.
If they allowed smaller scale grid-tie setups, as in the UK, we'd be doing it, but it's 6.7 or nowt, AFAIK.
Steam punk Lester?
Surely and old landrover, a jack and some for of belt system driving an electric motor could server as a generator? Sure the kids and missus will moan, but that's OK as it's only for a short while.
Alternatively, have you thought about steam? they run on fire and water and have a proven track record at electric generation.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=CK1P2cwEYZo
http://www.claverton-energy.com/mini-steam-power-plant-of-10-kw-with-18-hp-steam-engine-3kw-steam-power-plant-with-8-hp-steam-engine-to-run-on-renewable-energy.html
Re: Steam punk Lester?
He'll be chuffed to bits with that
Re: Steam punk Lester?
No need for a jack... "Proper" Land Rovers have provision for a PTO ;-)
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